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Author Topic: [Discussion] A greater consideration to TOG  (Read 1925 times)
hauntedechos
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« on: March 21, 2008, 08:45:06 pm »



Like some of you, I have given in to buying a membership with Starcitygames.com.  Something that really pushed me to do this was an article from Smmenen considering Tog as a possible champion to this metagame.  I've played TOG casually from time to time and enjoyed it.  I like the leasurely pace it has, the control based feel to it and ultimatly the feeling you can give to your opponent once they realize that they are in the red zone with Tog math.  Recently, Smmenen revised his list after a dismal performance with Tog in a tournament.  The change was switching over to the Gush/Bond engine from intuition/AK.  It's a decision that I can agree with on some levels, while forseeing the problems that the Gush/Bond engine will create in today's metagame.  Everyone is well aware of how to attack a Gush/Bond engine, so it seems to me that any deck seeking to abuse it, will have to be wary of the same issues surrounding it.  Others have covered the issues around Gush/Bond so I won't be re-hashing it all here.

So what does Tog have that GAt doesnt?  Not much really, except a totally different feel to the pilot.  In GAT you really want to drop a body fast and protect it while it grows and swing for the win.  With Tog the opposite is true, you want to spend your time controlling the flow of the match and then drop a Tog when he is lethal and win.  The difference in timing is what I consider to be the fundamental difference here.  Not to be over looked and certainly just as important is the control suite and Wish board.  I think that the Wish board can really put you on par with TSOath, which is important right now with TSOath on the rise.  TSOath will abuse research and development and Tog having the ability to crack open it's sideboard is a great boon especially pre-board.  The other advantage that Tog has over Gat in this matchup is what I touched on just above, we don't have to drop a body untill it's going to win.  To illustrate this fact, I played a few games where I was comboing with Fastbond in play and got myself into a position where I dropped Tog and played timewalk...then won.  Tog also has an increase in mana sources, which is huge...anyone who's played GAT and been stuck on a single mana source knows what I'm talking about.

So what are a few things that Tog needs to be aware of and adjust?  I would think that it would be it's first turn and possible turn two outside of setting up a Drain into Wish situation.  Turn one really doesnt have a lot going on in smmenen's build, and I think that could be easily solved by at least 4 Duress.  I run 1-2 Thoughtseize during testing as well, and that fact in conjunction to it's silly amount of countermagic makes the early game fairly easy to dictate and controll.  As always, don't bluff the play you DON'T have at the cost of the play you do.  Simply put, don't bluff Drain unless you have it, especially if you don't have anything other than Brainstorm.  You are better off trying to move ahead with your game than stalling your opponent.  Tog wants to control the match, but if it doesn't have control in hand, it needs to find it and fast, so cast your brainstorm...you might just draw into your bluff anyways.  You must always be wary of yard hate, I cannot stress this enough.  While GAT doesn't care, Tog really does, it's where your primary source of damage comes from.  Of course you can always combo and pitch as you go, but this is much more tricky and may lead to less than lethal situations, where your deck is done in and draw has been used.

To be honest, I think that I will be looking towards less conventional draw means and focusing on the combo possibilities that could be unearthed.  There has been talk before about Tog being included in Storm decks as an alt win, so I'm wondering what we could do with Tog as a deck and upping the combo possibilities.  At this point I think that I would like to open the floor to everyone and see what the initial opinions and discussion on Tog is.  It's not a deck being looked at heavily and the fact that it doesn't drop bodies unless it needs to is great against Oath, while the ability to drop a Tog in an aggro match and control the size of it is also a decent approach.  So what do the great minds of Vintage think about this deck?

To note, the reasoning behind a new thread for Tog is that I don't feel the idea of Tog should revolve around an article written so much as a consortium of free flowing ideas from the masses.  Feel free to lock the thread if it is felt otherwise.

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hauntedechos
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 08:36:28 am »



It's disheartening to see the lack of interest in Tog.  With a Supirior control package, the current favourite draw engine and a win condition that pitches to Fow, I would have thought that people would have loved to talk and test out Tog.

I would like to ask the opinion of the masses here on themanadrain.com.  A consideration that I have been mulling around in my head is:  What does Tog need more, draw or control?

4 Force of Will
4Duress
4Mana Drain
1Hurkyls
1Echoing Truth

Let's consider the above as a possible Control build:  Some might think that with eight hard counters, the four Duress is over doing it, is it?  let's discuss why.  On my end I think that the eight counters is where Tog can flex it's pure control heart.  Favouring Mana Drains over Misdirections reflects the slower speed of Tog vs. Gat, it also offers a greater number of answers to the multitude of threats that Shop decks will sling at you.  This is all great, but as we've read in smmenens articles, there is a lack of "something to do" during turn one.  This doesn't mean we just cram something in there, I think that Duress is the natural choice for the control players out there.  It's a proactive approach to containing your opponent.

4Brainstorm
4Gush
1Ancestral
1Demonic Tutor
3Cunning Wish

Let's consider now the draw of the deck:  It's a fairly standard issue Gush/Bond draw package with an exception:  Vamp, mystical and Imperial have been offset buy the Wishes.

So where is the discussion you ask?  I was hoping that we could take a closer look into Tog's control suite and draw package.  In the first, how many Duress should be included in Tog, while considering the eight hard counters.  In the second, would Tog benifit from Ponder or top deck tutors, or does Tog have enough to run on given the nature of the deck?  The more important question that preceeds all of the above is:  What could/would Tog benifit from more in it's one drop slot, Ponder, Duress/thoughtseize/extirpates, or topdeck tutors?

I really hope that there is an increase in this decks consideration.

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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2008, 07:45:40 pm »

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With Tog the opposite is true, you want to spend your time controlling the flow of the match and then drop a Tog when he is lethal and win.

Tog needs to answer Dryad and Flash *better* than Gro and Flash.  You can't win faster than they can and you run about the same control package meaning that your actual ability to control their explosion is dicey. 

Winning in the long-term also means more vulnerability (and less) to Stax and Fish.

Gro's speed *is* an answer to some threats that Tog seems ill-equipped to deal with.
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 07:19:16 am »



Well stated Duck, it's a whole bunch to think about.

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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 03:54:04 pm »

I don't have any real vintage experience, and I was on a magic break when Psychatog came out, so I don't know the deck's history all that much, in fact, all I have to go by is the decklist that Steven used in his article as printed here. Take this in mind when reading my comments, because I could really be waaaay off.

In any case, The purpose of winning with a tog seems to be to make it lethal using a full graveyard and then cast cunning wish for berserk. This means that there should be a decent amount of spells in the graveyard and/or in your hand. In addition, you need a wish, and the mana to cast both the wish and berserk.

First thing is that for a full graveyard, you'll need to be casting spells. Without graveyard cheating, Psychatog will need quite a few spells being cast prior to alpha striking. This means that the role this deck takes is that of a slow control deck. In fact, when I look over the decklist presented by Steven, it has a whole lot of similarities with "The Deck" (which I happen to know a bit off due to reading the Control Player's Bible).

"There are no wrong threats, just wrong answers"
This is a quote that comes to mind and seems paramount to a slow control deck. My initial reaction was that Cunning Wish was clunky and a bit of a mana waste as well as a sideboard space waste. However, giving the time it takes for Psychatog to go lethal, you'll be facing varied threats that should be contained. Because even with an opponent's main plan foiled, you still need to get yourself into a position from where you can win. In this sense, Cunning Wish is both an answer to opposing threats, as well as an essential kill card.

Like any control deck, Tog needs an engine and a disruption suite. The basis of the engine is simple: 4 Brainstorm, 1 Ancestral Recall. The basis of the Control Suite is also simple: 4 Force of Will. In my mind, the deck really is that open to change. Let's start with the engine.

One remark here: If your goal is to cast spells and control the game, then Mana Drain becomes one of the best cards for your control suite, as it both controls the game and allows for bigger) follow-up spells, which are usually the ones that give the best card advantage, or the most in-game control. So, while I personally don't consider it part of the basis of the control suite, I think we can assume that some amount of mana drain is going to make it into any final version of the list.

Gush/bond is what was used in Stevens list, and is generally seen as the strongest engine in current vintage. A deck with as many tutors as Tog has in that list is certain to have a good shot at finding Fastbond, so why not run the best engine the game has to offer?

Well, this is Tog, not GAT. I think that using the Gush/Bond engine in any deck outside GAT requires a lot of thinking. What exactly does Gush/Bond offer? Mostly, it offers the possibility to go nuts and win instantly with a combo feel. If you take fastbond out of the equation, Gush is a mediocre draw engine. One that works perfectly for mana-light decks, but for something like Tog, a deck that wants to utilize a bigger mana pool, stifling your own development seems wrong. What you're stuck with is an engine that is erratic at best, unless you get fastbond into play.
So, an important ingame goal becomes getting fastbond into play. This requires tutoring, protecting your fastbond, and then going nuts. As a game plan, this has little to do with what Tog is trying to do, which is control the flow of play. In other words, Gush/Bond to me seems like an aggressive engine.

Also, Gush is a terribly ineffective card to use as a mana sink for drained mana. Ramping up to 5 mana to draw 2 cards is terrible. Tidings sees no play in vintage whatsoever, and that draws twice as many.

All things considered, Gush/Bond is not used at it's most effective in Tog, and as a result, might not be the best choice for an engine. In addition, people expect the engine to appear in tournaments, by using Gush/Bond, you'll expose yourself to some degree of collateral damage you take from anti-GAT strategies that attack it's engine.

You said that the old lists used Intuition/AK, and as an engine, it suffers some of the problems that Gush/Bond has, and is superior in other ways. First of all, in the right situation, it gives you seven cards in hand and five in your graveyard, which equates to 13 Tog power if nothing else. The similarities with Gush/Bond is that it's more an explosion of cards rather than an ongoing engine. You need one successful casting of intuition to finish the job of the engine. In addition, the AK's in your hand are rather dead until you fire off the intuition. If you do get it online, you'll most likely win the game due to massive card advantage. It's pretty similar to getting a fastbond in play, except that intuition is not restricted.

When thinking about it, the goal of Tog, to control the game state until it can create a position from which it can win in the mid- to late-game seems very similar to that of Tyrant Blue. That list uses an unorthodox engine of mystic remora and meditate. While I think that Meditate is not an optimal card for Tog, I think that the remora has serious potential to be an addition to the engine of Tog. If your opponent develops his game plan, then he's giving you the tools to contain them and get into the late game. The last of the simple engines is to run Thirst for Knowledge.

Thirst does not seem ideal in that it's better in slaver-like builds that also benefit a lot from the discard, but it does offer a persistent engine that gives you cards in increments, and gives you a constant and decent drain mana outlet. In other words, like the remora, it gives you an engine that more consistent rather than explosive.

Which I think is one of the key aspects of Tog. The keyword that comes to mind with Tog, compared to GAT is consistency. If you are going for an explosive engine in Tog, then you need to wonder why you are not playing GAT, which makes far better use of such an engine due to it's capability to switch gears.

Finally, without fastbond, you could try out Fatal Frenzy instead of Berserk and drop green altogether for a more stable mana base, which incidentally also adds to the consistency of the deck. This also affects the wishboard though by losing oxidize, artifact mutation and ancient grudge. But most of this can be overcome with Rack and Ruin and Overload/Mogg Salvage. Artifact Mutation remains a loss though.

In the end, I would suggest at least testing an engine of Mystic Remora in combination with most likely Thirst for Knowledge, and possibly Meditate. Meditate means more emphasis on Misdirection, as you'll want to make your counters count in the face of an additional untap phase of your opponent, while Thirst is probably better suited with Duress as additional disruption.

But for someone who doesn't really know what he's talking about, I've gone on long enough about the possible engine of the deck. The Disruption suite is at least somewhat dependant on the engine as explained above, but I think that force of will, drains and a wishboard seem very likely, and hopefully there will be space left for duress/misdirection. Leaving the disruption package discussion for another time.

Tog seems like a very interesting list, as I've always liked control decks. I think that for it to stand out in today's meta, it needs to actively differentiate itself from GAT, starting with the engine.
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hauntedechos
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 04:34:34 pm »



Addressing the Gush/Bond engine:  I would have to agree that when you select the Gush/Bond engine, one needs to realize that you are setting yourself up for splash hate from the current meta.  I also agree that Tog plays a slower controlling game and thusly cannot capitalize on the Gush/Bond engine to it's full extent w/o working to resolve Fast bond.  When I was first introduced to Tog, my opponent was playing the Thirst engine.  The thing that I noticed about that engine was that it was self sufficient and it also dumped cards into the yard, furthering the game plan of Tog.  The other thing that I realize now is, like Bazaar, Thirst can allow you to filter your cards while converting the chaff into Tog damage, while also making itself available to a Will turn.  My gripe against the Gush engine (with or without Fast bond) is that you do set yourself back in lands w/o clever and restricting timing.  With some decks this really doesn't seem to matter, however in a control deck such as Tog, it really does seem to matter.

As it was stated above, and by Duck:  If you are going to copy and paste GAT's engine, then you have to be able to do something better than GAT.  The fact that Tog doesn't require a body on the table (in most matches) was a strong point for me, when considering the TSOath matchup.  In other matchups, it's almost a liability as you have nothing to block with against the man plan.  If you DO choose to combat the bigger dudes of this meta with a Tog, then you will be depleting your resources to combat the threats and thusly prolong the game, possibly doing yourself in.

In the end, I also belive that Tog needs greater consideration that it cannot just simply be imbued with GAT's strength and expected to perform the same.  Sure the comboish allure of the Gush/Bond engine may seem to be too good to pass up. However I also agree that there has to be a better engine that fits with Tog.

On the other hand, I think that the pro active approach of Duress effects transcends what engine you decide to play.  It's a proactive aspect that can be effective on turn one, where currently Tog has nothing to do aside from Brainstorm and get ready to blow a Force of will, where a Duress would have made the difference.  Duress also becomes important in the late game as a means to clear the way for the kill.

I really like the comments that a few have bothered to post so far in this thread, and I hope that it continues.

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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 08:55:31 am »

Thirst seems like a solid choice, but nothing really amazing. Apart from the jewelry, the deck runs very little artifacts, which could occasionally cause Thirst to be an expensive hand fixer, akin to a 2U brainstorm. If you do draw into jewelry, you'll still have to make the choice to dump a mana source (something this deck wants) into the grave unavailable unless you get a Will turn, after which it probably isn't of any importance anyway.

On the other hand, Thirst seems like a better mana investment than Scroll for Ancestral, being completely instant, having a lighter mana requirement, and not "wasting" a tutor (i.e. you'll still have the scrol).

So far there has been no mention of Fact or Fiction, which seems like the perfect card for Tog, as it sees you so many raw cards. It does cost more than Thirst, which is a big deal and pretty much forces you to run 4 drains as you'll most likely need to drain into Fact or Fiction. It's also restricted, so it can't really be used as an engine, but as a singleton, I can see it having it's place in this deck, if only as a replacement for a Thirst.

About Duress: I agree that this proactive counter is definately a good addition to the Tog gameplan. It gives you something meaningful to do on turn 1, and it strips opposing counters/threats, saving your own. Also, there is the argument that Tog is slower than GAT, and if both decks use the same disruption package, then GAT already starts with a big advantage. Forces, Drains, and Duress seems like a very solid way to buy you the time to get your engine online and take over in the mid- to late game.
On the other hand, my comment about it depending on your draw engine was mostly aimed at using Remora/Meditate as used in the Tyrant Blue deck. Duress, or any sorcery for that matter (but duress is also not pitchable to Force of Will or Misdirection), is a terrible card to see from your meditate. In the light of giving your opponent an additional untap (i.e. giving them the mana advantage), duress becomes less of a factor, and Misdirection becomes more important, because you'll need to continue the control through their additional untap and your tapdown of Meditate mana.
That said, Tog is not Tyrant Blue, and even though Meditate sees you more card (and thus more Psychatog damage), Tog is a deck that wants to abuse it's mana, and this gain a mana advantage. Losing a land drop and an untap step compared to your opponent seems like a bad idea.
Concluding this, Meditate is most likely not the engine we're looking for in Tog because we do want to make better use of Duress, and it suffers some of the mana stifling problems that the Gush/Bond engine brings as well by skipping an untap and a land drop.

If you do settle on Thirst and use duress, then the core of the deck's draw and disrupt looks like this:
Engine:
4 Thirst for Knowledge (maybe switch one for Fact or Fiction)
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Duress

Which is already 24-25 cards, even without the other tutors, general brokenness, and a backup plan. On the other hand, you'll have a powerful disruption package, a good draw engine, and the flexibility of the wishes.

A question that I would like to ask is how do you feel about merchant scroll? It's certainly a powerful card and finds recall if nothing else. However, without Gush/Bond, the scroll becomes weaker, and I feel that Thirst is generally a better play than Scroll for Recall anyway. It seems to fill the role of glue though, as it allows you to run a Tinker backup plan with more reliablility, as well as fetching your your draw pieces or an early force if needed. It also acts as additional Wishes. That said, the core of the deck with a large disruption and engine package is already eating well into the deck space and a good engine adds reliability for finding the right cards anyway. The first scroll will obviously be replaces with a demonic tutor, but beyond that, is the scroll an important piece of the engine, or is a nice glue to have if there is any deckspace left?
Steven's list used 4, but my feeling on this is leaning more towards the latter, except that scroll also adds consistency to the deck, so leaving a build without any seems wrong as well. Scroll as a 4-off seems wasting mana and deckspace, and is basically a by-product of using the Gush/Bond engine. With 4 drains competing for your mainphase mana already, scroll becomes a little weaker as well. With the Thirsts and Wishes the deck already seems have enough mana sinks to not need the Scroll that badly.
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 09:16:17 am »



It's nice to see that there is at least some talk on Tog still active.  If the meta continues to shift towards Flash and Combo in general, then this archetype may just be moot anyways.

Never the less, let's discuss.  Ulthrion, you bring up a good point of discussion in terms of the draw engine and in specific, Merchant Scroll.  I've long used a singleton as an instant tutor that doesn't put it on top of the shelf.  In that regards it is used for snagging Force of Will mainly as it is a free counter coming after tapping down  {1} {U}.  I'm not sure how feasible it would be to use Merchant Scroll to tutor a Drain, unless you were really setting something up.  On the other hand, as you said, it really can be used as "glue" in the sense that you could tutor up Fact, Thirst, Gifts or any other card that would be used to tilt the game state into your favour.  In the end, without spending too much time on it's consideration, I feel that one would be optimal for a deck not running the Gush/Bond engine.  Beyond that, the deck really doesn't abuse tutors the way much faster decks do, it's much more happy with card advantage and to that end, I'm not fully sure that Thirst is the answer.  Thirst does act as a filter engine, much like Bazaar in Staxx and does dig deep for it's mana cost and as such I would be somewhat inclined to at least try it out.  I can see a problem comming down the line, when it is your only draw source and you are only holding it or one other card, much like the bazaar issue. In the end, I'm just not sure what is optimal for Tog.

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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2008, 08:29:32 pm »

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So what does Tog have that GAt doesnt?...timing is what I consider to be the fundamental difference here

Timing and even more importantly, strategic flexibility.

Quote
To be honest, I think that I will be looking towards less conventional draw means and focusing on the combo possibilities that could be unearthed.  There has been talk before about Tog being included in Storm decks as an alt win, so I'm wondering what we could do with Tog as a deck and upping the combo possibilities.

The problem here is that Tog is limited by the fact you need to pass the turn or time walk.  It's different with TSOath because you can mox, orchard, oath turn 1 and hopefully combo out turn two.  With Tog, you need a mox, something like Gush to fill your hand up, and maindeck berserk to kill on turn 3.  It's a very low percentage, slow, kill.  When the original Hulk-Smash build was developed killing on turn 3-5 for a control deck was lightning quick; now it's simply too slow.

Quote
On my end I think that the eight counters is where Tog can flex it's pure control heart.  Favouring Mana Drains over Misdirections reflects the slower speed of Tog vs. Gat

Regardless of the speed of your own deck, other decks will help define for you what the right answer cards are.  Right now I really like Spell Snare as it hits major cards in Oath, Flash, Workshops and Fish.  They can be dead weight against storm combo and Bomberman, but you can usually find something to throw it at.  Also, it pitches Surprised

Quote
Gro's speed *is* an answer to some threats that Tog seems ill-equipped to deal with.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that quirion dryad/tarmogoyf is an effective clock against Oath or Flash.  ELD argues this to be the case with Oath, but I remain unconvinced.  As for against workshops, Tarmogoyf is an decent clock, especially compared with Dryads, however, Tog is even faster, albeit he costs more.  The difference is that Tog is good, if not great, against all these (since he can pitch when you're in a counter war.

Quote
If you take fastbond out of the equation, Gush is a mediocre draw engine. One that works perfectly for mana-light decks, but for something like Tog, a deck that wants to utilize a bigger mana pool, stifling your own development seems wrong. What you're stuck with is an engine that is erratic at best, unless you get fastbond into play.

T1 right now really forces a different kind of thinking.  The way you play this deck is going to be largely dependent on the matchup.  The key here is converting resources (between board and hand) as efficiently as possible on the way to setting up your big play.  Brainstorm with fetchlands completely changed the way T1 was played, and Gush extends this by allowing you to take your board, return it to your hand (whether it's countered or not) and convert it into more pertinent cards with brainstorm.  Oh, and it does this all for free.  Granted, it does change the curve you're allowed to play, but I think people are overestimating mana drain some here.  Also, Gush is what allows you to kill surprisingly quickly with Psychatog.

Thirst for knowledge really isn't a draw engine in this deck, remora/meditate really requires an entire deck built around it, and while I really do love intuition/AK, it's strictly more expensive and less flexible than Gush/Scroll.

As for implementing some of the advice in this post, I had some success with this build:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35545.msg495320#msg495320
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2008, 10:10:37 pm »

Quote
Gro's speed *is* an answer to some threats that Tog seems ill-equipped to deal with.

You'd be hard pressed to convince me that quirion dryad/tarmogoyf is an effective clock against Oath or Flash.  ELD argues this to be the case with Oath, but I remain unconvinced.  As for against workshops, Tarmogoyf is an decent clock, especially compared with Dryads, however, Tog is even faster, albeit he costs more.  The difference is that Tog is good, if not great, against all these (since he can pitch when you're in a counter war.


I was thinking more about the aggro-control matches.  Gro can win before something like Dawn of the Dead has really done much.
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