[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays - Best Deck Ever?

[Smmenen]

Part one in a two part look at flash:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15620.html

editor blurb:

Monday, March 24th - Vintage Magic is currently going through somewhat of a renaissance, but there are still universal truths. For example, everyone knows the format is the most broken format in the game. Today, Stephen Menendian breaks down what some people have called the best deck ever made. Do you agree with his assessment?

[Shock Wave]

You beat me to it Steve. I am also in the process of writing an article about Flash, which I plan on submitting to Mark Rosewater, Aaron Forsythe, and whoever else I can get the attention of at the DCI. Our lists are also similiar, although the last 6 cards we've decided upon are different but similar in function. I played Flash in a tournament on Saturday. I went 3-2-1, losing one round to the mirror (the round lasted about 5 minutes), and the last round of the swiss because of a play mistake that cost me a Top 8 spot. Flash won the whole event, against Ichorid in the finals.

I think that Flash is utterly ridiculous. I'm not sure if it is the best deck ever, but I don't think that's a point worth investigating. What's for sure is that it is a very good deck (capable of winning tournaments) that kills the opponent with unacceptable frequency before they are able to play a card, and often with protection. Anyways, I plan on posting my full argument in my article. I'm very curious as to what conclusions you'll come to in your testing.

[kkoie]

For those of us who don't have prem. membership, can we see a decklist?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ kkoie most flash lists are pretty similar, If you'd like you can take a proactive approach and look one up on starcity.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Our lists are also similiar, although the last 6 cards we've decided upon are different but similar in function.

@ kkoie most flash lists are pretty similar, If you'd like you can take a proactive approach and look one up on starcity.

To me, a six card difference is worth requesting the decklist under discussion.

[Zherbus]

1) Go to Starcitygames.com

2) Click on the far right, under the Vintage tab "Deck Database"

3) Select the "Include Suggested Decks?" box.

4) Click "Show Decks"

5) Scroll over to the next page. Click "Hulk Flash (a Premium deck)"

You'll see:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
1 Body Double
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Protean Hulk
1 Reveillark

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Flash
4 Force Of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Pact Of Negation
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
3 Island

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea

[derek]

@ Zherbus: unfortunately only premium users can view the premium decklists. Following your instructions, a message appears: Join StarCityGames.com Premium Today! To view this deck, you must be a StarCityGames.com Premium member.

[hauntedechos]

I think that joining was the actual step one heh.  ok, ok I'm kidding, but seriously they do offer a great amount of flexability in terms of how long and the amount paid for membership.  Sorry to interject with off topic banter.

Haunted.

[Zherbus]

@ Zherbus: unfortunately only premium users can view the premium decklists. Following your instructions, a message appears: Join StarCityGames.com Premium Today! To view this deck, you must be a StarCityGames.com Premium member.

Then it's a good thing I posted it!

[kkoie]

It certainly is a very streamlined list.  Interesting that he's used the same analogy w/ this list as he did with Tyrant Oath in replacing mox pearl w/ a petal.  I'm curious what his thoughts are on a sideboard (I'd rather not spend the $ to find out by reading his article, I need those prescious $'s for magic cards and gasoline)

[Nehptis]

I don't have Premium.  But, I've played against tons of Flash this week already on MWS.  Most were running an Oath Transformational SB.  My guess is it was Steve's list.

It's interesting how Flash was just floating around at the fringes of tournies and discussions until recently.  Could it be that a simple question by Thicketman (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35486.0) along with a new list made Flash the monster that it always should have been?  Are the wheels in motion for a heated discussion on TMD (thread already closed), followed by commentary by a highly Visible player (Steve's article), then Flash domination in tournies worldwide, then Flash and/or Merchant Scroll added to the B/R list?

My bet is yes.  Then again I had Duke and G'town in my Final Four!!!

[Phele]

I don't want to question the power of Flash. But I doubt, its the best deck ever. Imo it only would get this status, if it dominates all the top matchups and just loses to dedicated "hate" decks, that fail to beat the other top decks because of this added hate. This is not the case and the presented list doesn't  change that, even though I don't know about the sideboard technics. But Flash definately loses against Dark Illusions, Deez Noughts and I would guess, that a well prepared UW or UWB Fish list has a very good chance against flash as well, while being still competetive in all the top matchups.

[Negator]

Maybe this card would be beter than Mogg Fanatic...

Bile Urchin (B)
Creature - Spirit
Sacrifice Bile Urchin: Target player loses 1 life.
1/1

Is naming Mogg Fanatic right with Pithing Needle? Is this case, Bile Urchin could surprise your opponent if he didn't see your kill. Another advantage: you can hardcast it.

[Anusien]

Bile Urchin doesn't kill Platinum Angel.

I have to say, I'd have liked to see a little bit more in this article.  The last 6 slots in the list, Steve says, come down to pure conjecture.  Have you really not tested those 6 slots?  Considering that you seem to test obsessively, I find that hard to believe.  If you did test them, explain how you came to those numbers.  Otherwise I don't know that there's a lot for people to get out of this article.  That said, waiting for part 2...

[Zherbus]

A disadvantage is that it doesn't win through Platinum Angel and the like.

Just sayin'

EDIT: Damn you Kevin.

Kevin, there's a part two. Should be up next monday, it's chock full of stuff as well.

[ELD]

Even with Needle naming your kill, you can still produce an X/X Carrion Feeder, where X is the largest number you can think of.  While I've never seen someone not name Carrion Feeder, if they did, it delay you at a turn for the most. 

[Smmenen]

Bile Urchin doesn't kill Platinum Angel.

I have to say, I'd have liked to see a little bit more in this article.  The last 6 slots in the list, Steve says, come down to pure conjecture.  Have you really not tested those 6 slots?  Considering that you seem to test obsessively, I find that hard to believe.  If you did test them, explain how you came to those numbers.  Otherwise I don't know that there's a lot for people to get out of this article.  That said, waiting for part 2...

I did talk about those slots quite a bit actually.  I explained Thoughseize in the second to last paragraph.   The others are explained throughout.   

[Moxlotus]

Maybe this card would be beter than Mogg Fanatic...

Bile Urchin (B)
Creature - Spirit
Sacrifice Bile Urchin: Target player loses 1 life.
1/1

Is naming Mogg Fanatic right with Pithing Needle? Is this case, Bile Urchin could surprise your opponent if he didn't see your kill. Another advantage: you can hardcast it.

why would you name fanatic with needle?  The opponent can still get an 10000/10000 carrion feeder.  If you name carrion feeder, you get a 6/6 and a fanatic.

[AmbivalentDuck]

why would you name fanatic with needle?  The opponent can still get an 10000/10000 carrion feeder.  If you name carrion feeder, you get a 6/6 and a fanatic.

Because you're playing something that cares more about Fanatic than about an infinitely large creature that can't block.  Ichorid, Sliver Flash, etc.

[Smmenen]

I'm actually very surprised that most of the response to the article have been mechanical comments/questions about the combo.  This is true here as on SCG. 

[Chaos Lord 21]

I really enjoyed this article. I found it very thorough regarding the deck's history, and very well-written concerning the card choices. The subtle digs against Gottlieb crack me up too. It will be interesting to see if these developments to the deck push it to the threshold of requiring DCI intervention (which I'm guessing would be to restrict Merchant Scroll).

Again, great job!

[Polynomial P]

Well, Flash has been around for a while, so your decklist isnt really exciting new territory. Putting some number of ponders into flash is a no-brainer. Essentially, you swapped 5 cards of a kill condition out for another 5 card kill condition with different advantages and disadantages.

So here is a real question: Is having an instant speed kill that does not use the attack step worth the added susceptibility to a number of vintage playable cards (Extirpate, Tormod's crypt, pithing needle)?

Bonus question: Sliver flash didnt care if it have a virulent sliver in its hand because you could still get through 12 poison counters without it in play. Having carrion feeder in your hand is the worst with this deck. Has that been a problem at all?

[Smmenen]

So here is a real question: Is having an instant speed kill that does not use the attack step worth the added susceptibility to a number of vintage playable cards (Extirpate, Tormod's crypt, pithing needle)?

It's a false question because it assumes that the instant speed kill co-exists with Extirpate, T. Crypt, and Pithing Needle.  If my answer is mysterious, it will become clear on Monday. 

[Polynomial P]

Well, clearly you can respond to pithing needle or tormod's crypt by winning or using one of the 8 hard counters to prevent those from hitting play. However, if you cant win before they hit play, they are fairly devastating. Extirpate is a different story, because you cant necessarily see it coming and you cant stop it with your protection spells even if you do see it coming. Extirpate on Body double with the reveillark trigger on the stack leaves you with just a mogg fanatic and a 3/3 carrion feeder in play. Guess ill have to wait till monday to find out an answer.

Personally, i would rather play against this new build of Flash than the sliver kill.

[Smmenen]

I promise i answer your question

[dicemanx]

I think Steve means that the Reveillark kill exists in the MD only when Crypt, Extirpate and Needle are in the SB. He probably aims to transform into either another Flash kill (Slivers, which evade all of the hate cards listed) or an entirely different kill altogether (Tarmogoyf? Oath? Tinker-DSC? etc.).

Unless decks start running hate cards main to combat the Flash instant speed kill, they won't benefit from putting hate cards in the SB. The only relevant hate card in the SB is Leyline, but who wants to have to mull into it when you don't even know if your opponent opted to transform into a non-graveyard dependent kill?

[Polynomial P]

Clearly there are some great SB options for this deck and i look forward to your next article as i think that will be the meat of the topic. Perhaps we will instead see a rise in stifles and trickbinds in the near future if the DCI does not act on Flash. Hello TK deez noughts.

[Phele]

I am curious about his answer, as many answers added after boarding like Extirpate, Echoing Truth or Explosives are good against almost any alternative kill Flash might bring in as well. But you definately have to play much more carefully against this new Flash version. Losing in response to a fetch activiation is quite frightening. Anyway: With Dark Illusions I still feel very confidant against it. So as Polynomial said, we might see a little change of deck choices to more Stifle centred builds.

[Troy_Costisick]

Extirpate, T. Crypt, and Pithing Needle

An more esoteric cards like Wipe Away, Sudden Shock, Damping Matirx, and Leyline of the Void. 

Peace,

-Troy

PS: Looking forward to monday!

[Phoenix888]

I don't have a SCG membership so if this is answered in the article I wouldn't know.

One thing I keep reading is that the new instant speed kill that flash has allows for pacts to be used offensively to counter things like duress, spheres, etc., allowing a win on the next upkeep in response to pact triggers.  If I'm a Flash player with a Flash, Hulk/S. Pact, and counter backup.  Why would the correct play to be to pass the turn as opposed to winning immediately?  I'm sure there's a good reason, I just don't get it.