Improving Flash

[Aneurysm]

I attended the Mox Tourney in Charleston, SC this weekend, and, much to Eric Becker's disdain, played Flash. Although our tournout made it impossible to completely solidify my deck's credibility (we had 16 people), the four matches that I played (lol) and the testing that I did the week before HAVE solidified my choice for a flash sideboard. At least, until the deck is restricted.

Becker and I were talking about different sideboard possibilities, and he suggested the total transformation into the oath sideboard. For those unfamiliar, the changes look something like this:

- 4 Flash
- 4 Hulk
- 5 Combo Creature
- X Summoners Pact

+ 4 Oath
+ 4 Orchard
+ 3 Plats
+ 2+X  Duress

The idea is that the opponent brings in graveyard hate, which you get around by oathing, and, much like platinum angel control, you have more angels than they have answers. In theory, this sounds great. So I proxied it all up and started testing. Boy, was it underwhelming. It solved the problem against hate, but not against ichorid, and obviously not against combo, because as all oath players know, passing the turn after Oath resolves and the turn after really sucks when TTS or Long decides to blow up in your face. So i tried to tinker with the sideboard. Wait. Tinker? Could that work? People have tried it before, and it didn't look promising. According to SCG database, all of the Flash decks running MD tinker hadn't placed higher than 8th. Those running sideboard Tinker hadn't placed higher than 19th. But after another conversation with Becker (props), we figured that running different tinker targets for the different matchups would make SB tinker much more playable. So my new sideboard plan went something like this:

- X(2) Summoner's Pact
- 1 Flash
- X (Matchup dependant)

+ Tinker
+ DSC ( For aggro, non blue decks, basically)
+ Plats (Always comes in, with one of the other two, usually)
+ Titan (For the decks with duals)
+ Whatever else needed to go in for the matchup.

The idea here is that instead of using just DSC or just Angel, you get to dodge the gy hate AND hit 'em where it hurts, as they say. You dilute the flash kill so if they mull to six (or five) and don't find the leyline, then you can still win with flash, albiet a turn slower. The angel always goes in so if you have to protect the tinker with a pact, you don't lose the game.

I also ran an extra carrion feeder in the side, to fix the triskellion and the burn "problem".

Gigadrowse was Eric's hot tech (from someone else's list) that let you tap down crypts and swamps EOT to stop extirpate and the GY hate. All for only  (merch scroll).


The funny thing is, it worked. My first three rounds were all won G1 by a flash kill, G2 by a tinker kill. DSC, Titan, DSC respectively. I played against Eric in the last round and he got savagely lucky, but i did turn 1 (G2) Tinker-->Angel him with double pact backup. Test and let me know how things go. I'll post my list in a bit.

[meadbert]

Transformational sideboards can work for sure, but in general I find it is eaier to protect the original combo than it is to transform.

The one exception is Dragon.  This is explained by the unusually large number of cards that hate out Dragon (Enchantment hate, creature hate, graveyard hate, comes into play tapped effects, etc)

Ichorid, which is about as easy to hate out as a deck can be is still far better off just protecting its main purpose than it is at transforming into something else.

For Flash, I suspect the the best solution is to run a board more similar to Ichorid and just be sure to have 4xChain of Vapor after boarding.  Gigadrowse is a really cool idea as well, but would Thoughtseize be better for combatting split second?

I do agree about wanting a backup win.

There are many options that still use Flash->Hulk.  For example:
1:  Slivers Kill
2:  3x Goyf
3:  1xConfidant, 2xGoyf
4:  1xSliver Queen
5:  1xTeneb, The Harvester - Big and flys and will get a Hulk back during first attack if Hulk not Crypted/Extirpated.
6:  1xIntet, The Dreamer - Big and flys again and it is really nice if you get to play a Free Hulk, which is easy to set up with Ponder and Brainstorm.  The card draw is nice.  I prefer this guy to Teneb since Crypt/Extirpate are common reasons to go for the alternate kill.

Intet and Sliver Queen are also nice in that you can use Summoner's Pact to find a Blue card to Pitch to Force.  They pitch to Force themselves as well.

[Aneurysm]

I wasn't advocating the transformational sideboard. Rather, I was adding an alternate win condition while not taking away too much of the flash kill to begin with.

I like the 3x Goyf kill, but if the opponents have leylines, then they goyfs get nerfed, and you have to hardcast them. The main reason you run tinker is to get around leyline, crypts, and extirpate, all of which nerf your plans.

[kicks_422]

I have two thoughts on how to improve Flash, both of which are still pretty much unrefined:

1. Orim's Chant/Abeyance. The deck can get through countermagic, that's for sure. However, random stuff like Engineered Explosives, Stifles, Extirpates, StP's, burn, etc. are what the deck loses to most of the time. Is it worth slowing down the average turn kill for more protection?

2. I've seen this done before, but I'll bring it up anyway. Phyrexian Dreadnoughts to Flash in, leaving you with 2 12/12's and probably a Meddling Mage as well. Mages can be run at 4 to compensate for the loss of Pacts, I guess. Stifles will also be added, to have that back up win-con the deck needs. Merchant Scroll will then be fetching the blue card you need to combo with depending on what's in your hand (Hulk -> Flash, Dreadnought -> Stifle). As a plus, Stifle also answers most of the hate that is directed to the Hulk kill. However, the 1-turn delay from winning might prove to be a problem, just like in Oath.

So, basically... What's more important? Explosiveness or stability?

[meadbert]

Stifles have some Synergy with Pact of Negation since you can Stifle the ability that makes you lose.

Tinker->DSC would be a great backup win for those who run enough artifacts, but once Ponder was printed I started dropping off color Moxen for Ponders.  This leaves me with so few artifacts in the deck that Tinker is unreliable.  I go back and forth on this, but in general I am pretty sure that 4 Ponder is the correct number in Flash.  I cannot find room for everything else I want unless I drop off color moxen.
I also run ESG which turns Summoner's Pact into colorless mana when I need it.  That makes Moxen someone less needed.

It is true that off color moxen help with turn 1 Merchant Scroll, turn 2 Flash, but with 4 Ponders and 4 Brainstorms along with top deck tutors I have so many 1cc spells to play on turn 1 that I really feel like I really need to drop an off color mana source to cast Scroll on turn 1.  With many decks Scroll just about begins your mana curve and you really want to Scroll on turn 1.  With Flash, your deck basically curves out at 2 so it is far more acceptible to delay a Scroll.

There are some reasons to run a full set of Summoners Pacts. 
1)  If your first Hulk is Stifled than Summoners Pact helps you reload. 
2) If you are staring down Tormod's Crypt then you can Flash your first Hulk to the yard.  When your opponent Crypts it in response to your Hulk trigger you can let Crypt resolve, Pact for Hulk#2 and then fetch Carrion Feeder and Body Snatcher with your Hulk trigger.  Get rid of Hulk #2 with Body Snatcher.  Then sac Snatcher to Feeder and put Hulk into play and you are all set to combo out.

Anyway, my point is that having an extra Hulk in hand can be a good thing at times.  For that reason I do not like to drop the Summoner's Pact count as low as some others do.

[Everrid1234]

Look at my list.
I think the various ways of winning let the opponent sweat. Rebuild takes out multipli Needles and Crypts eot, Thoughtseize can get Extirpates. You can go for
Gifts-->Will-->ETW-->Walk, bring Oath in, bring in Tinker/Platz, leave the Flash-Combo in and bring in the Gifts-Win.....


It would be fantastic if the Slivers could be squeezed in somehow but they just don't fit together well with the Orchards. This would mean: Orchards SB, what takes very much room.
You have to decide for the win options.
I think Fanatic kill and Sliver Kill have both their advantages, not sure which one is better.

But this is my actual list:

4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tropical Island
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
2 Summoner's Pact
1 Ponder
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
1 Body Snatcher 
1 Body Double     
1 Reveillark         
1 Mogg Fanatic     
1 Carrion Feeder       

SB:

4 Oath of Druids
3 Platinum Angel (great against Ichorid, great with Pacts) - alternatively 3 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild/ Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmots Will
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tinker

[Lemnear]

The plan to win via gifts + rebuild seems pretty far from reality. Don't get me wrong but I can't imagine you'll create enought mana to cast both by running 12 lands and actually no carddraw. Sorry but I can't even belive that you'll able to grab enought moxen to make Rebulid a 3 for 3 mana trade. Moreover cutting Pacts by half and fitting in Thoughtseize seems the totally wrong way. You'll become slower and a Misdirection will hit you pretty hard. A word to "Rebuild takes out Needle and crypt": don't you think that you'll simply buy your opponent time to grab Force or Duress? Gett'n rid of Needle is useless if they have rounds to discard parts of your combo. Moreover that's the reason you run Chain in the mainboard anyway. Running more chains in the SB do the same with much less mana investment.

[Everrid1234]

I know, the "Rebuild-plan" is time-consuming. You have to play it more agressive than in decks where you have a huge draw-engine and more counter. You are right, there is less mana played, less artifacts. This is the reason i have put ETW in the SB and not Tendrils.
It does not HAVE to be Rebuild, it could also be just some Chain of Vapor. But since you lose the lands here i thought about an option saving me from this. The Rebuild would of course be used when i got lots of Moxen or am in the Yawgmoths Will action where it doesnt matter so much anymore.

But what do you think of the central aspect of the SB: The Gifts is tutored by Merchant Scrolls, going for the Yawg-Win?
The draw is not really amazing, thats right, but 1st Scroll for Anc, 2nd for Gifts seems solid imo. Some other Scroll for Mystical Tutor--> Tinker. During some turn you will manage dropping an Oath, you shouldnt forget that. Dropping the Oath is a big shift in the game.
The ETW for 8-16 token followed by a Time Walk hopefully is just another kill variant.
I also would like to steer your view on the small synergy between oathing and getting Yawgwill on hand to play the grave.
This is of course a bit risky because the Will could be oathed away. But since i got a Platinum Angel after oathing and there will come more.....this is not very relevant. If you fear Echoing Truth, don't Oath further having 1 Angel in play or Oath further if you have got a Brainstorm.
From time to time you can get a nice fat will after oathing an Angel. Just as a sidenote.


Since the deck has a fast kill and the Sideboard transforms it into something completely different which looks similar to a real Oath deck pre-SB, i have no idea what could be really useful as further SB cards. So the Gifts idea came up. ETW is something where Stifles help against and since these will be boarded out if the player smells that you bring in Oath, there is a 3rd kill which he couldn't count on.
You could even reduce the 3rd kill on 3 cards: Gifts, Y. Will and ETW.

What yould be necessary as a SB card? Leylines? Orchards SB and the old Sliver kill Main? Some Tarmogoyfs? First we should fix what the problem matchups are.

-Tyrant Oath? --> I don't think so since we have Orchards main
-Stax? --> Yes, not easy. Go for Oath.
-Fish --> How should they board?
-Ichorid? --> IMO a fast Oath for Platinum Angel is the best thing you can do here since Merchant Scroll action cries for Cabal Therapy. Here could some Leylines be useful. Having a Leyline or an Oath on the starting hand is pretty much gg.
-GAT? - Well....with Oath how could this deck win?
-Gush-storm - hm. Flash doesn't like everything with Duresses and lots of counters. But which card hates Gush-storm? Duress. Not an easy matchup. But Flash can't really do a lot to improve it imo without hurting itself too much.

this is my noob analysis.   Any comments? I really can't see any necessary SB cards.

A Toughtseize/Pact plan is imo better than just only pacts because you can "counter" something before you combo out. I like more the flexible style than the pure combo-style. Think about Extirpate.

[Lemnear]

I would drop the idea of Tyrant cause I can't see that you are able to chain spells to bounce enought. Since you are facing more aggro-Staxx, means they drop the Staxx itself you'll enjoy your ride on the angel. You should not argue with the orchard, trying to create more token than the opponents Tyrant Oath does. Simply combo him out that works pretty much better than boarding. Fish's pretty much the same as nearly every other control-deck ... before they start to drop their mages you'll able to flash him ... you'll face a FoW or a Stifle so Pact/FoW/Misd. yourself and win. Ichorid is a bit different, cause their leylines and chalices combined with unmask make this matchup very tricky. As I posted weeks ago in an similar discussion I remembered a fiend playing Ichorid and completely screws his Flash playing opponent with chalice and discard every game and take home victory. Maybe the Leylines should stay in the SB ... even in mirror they'll usefull. against Gat/Gush-Storm it's ... same same, but different. Gat's running an alternate win condition via storm in my meta so the oath plan is not sooooo insane anyways, by playing Platz over Tyrant (that is favourable in most other matups) oath is NO thread to Gat (obviously bounce the Angel(s) via ET).

Final word to Gifts again. It does not' dodge leyline that is THE hate you'll face nearly every game 2. So the Sliver kill dodges only extirpate, crypt and Needle but all those are also no thread to oath so the Oath-board ist pretty much that you're looking for.

[Everrid1234]

I don't want to play Tyrant by myself, anthough this would also be a nice idea for a more controlish win against permanent-heavy decks.
Tyrant seems better against all slower decks like Stax or Gush-decks with no explosive kills. If you don't like the 3rd win condition you could play Blazing Archons, SSSwallowers, anything.
Why shouldn't I argue with the Orchard? If i play it main and i know i will face an Oath player I will keep my starting hand when there is an Orchard on it with some tutoring stuff.
I don't say the Oath plan kills everything and it is definitely weaker than a well-tought-through Tyrant Oath but it is much more flexible. You have many must-counters.

The Fish matchup is imo not as easy as you think. When there comes a Leyline/Needle 1st turn and I have to tutor around for a while, it is pretty probable that i get duressed along this way. Against Fish, I would always board out 15 cards for the alternative SB. How should they board against Oath/ETW? They have to dilute their answers.

Game 3 i would board back or not, trying to guess what the opponent does during his 2nd boarding.

Leyline and Gifts: Of course the Leyline shuts down Gifts AND Flash, but not Oath and Gifts. If I board in Oath i still have 5 useless cards in the deck. So i would bring in the Gifts etc. If he smelled that i bring in Oath (what he will) I have a nice 2nd kill which abuses the gy. But when he smelled Oath being brought in he didn't bring in much GY hate. I just would like to have a 3rd kill variant and the Gifts--> ETW is the smallest i could think of.

You could also pack the Flash-kill in the SB and the Oath/Gifts main

[Lemnear]

Guess you don't fear wastelands/stripmine ... With only 4 Fetchlands you'll almost dead in the water in the wrong meta. I can imagine that scrolling for Flash via Orchard and gett'n hit by a Sphere hurts a lot more than playing it via basic island especially if you'll forced to find bounce still using Orchard. Top of the hill is that you tell your opponent in game one that SB you have and sure you can bluff either Oath or Flash in game 2 but opponents can board with more awareness of both. I would rather board (if play against Flash) some bounce myself to try to stop your combo by bouncing Platz/Feeder/Heart Sliver ... simply ... whatever you board

[kaos42069]

What are a few deck lists looking like now? With the defensve sideboard, the oath sideboard, and the tinker? what are some main deck builds?

[Everrid1234]

Lemnear,

of course your points make sense.
We should discuss the optimal kill first before talking about playing Forbidden Orchard mainboard.

Which kill are the players here prefering and why?
I like the Sliver kill a bit more because its resistance to lots of hate.

[kaos42069]

what is the sliver kill resistant to that revilark isnt? besides extirpate?

[the boogie man]

you can also hardcast a couple of the slivers and potentially win like that. You do lose the ability to win in response to pact triggers, though.

[Tha Gunslinga]

what is the sliver kill resistant to that revilark isnt? besides extirpate?

Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Extract

[Hydra]

Each kill has it's pros and cons.  Since I've been debating this on and off with Rich for some time, I figured I'd makes some points about each:

Slivers
Pros:
-Can hardcast Slivers to attack and win if necessary
-Immune to hate like Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, etc., and much more resistant to hate such as Extirpate (Extirpate on a Virulent Silver is still bad times for this version)

Cons:
-You have to attack to win.  This means you cannot win in response to your Pact triggers, nor can you win on your opponent's turn.  Things like blockers also become an issue, and with decks such as Goblins putting up stronger showings having your combo neutralized because your opponent dropped a couple of blockers is bad times.
-Has no built-in method to deal with Platinum Angel, meaning you may have to waste valuable time finding a bounce spell if your opponent gets one down quickly.  Not a huge con, but one that should be mentioned.

Reveillark
Pros:
-Instant speed kill, allowing you to react to your own Pact triggers and kill your opponent on their own turn.  This allows you to kill your opponent when he's tapped out as well as allowing you to have a last minute gambit if your opponent is trying to combo you out themselves.
-Immunity to blockers.  You kill with direct damage, meaning you can usually ignore creatures on the other side of your opponent's board.  There are obviously still some troublesome creatures for you, but those creatures (Meddling Mage, Aven, etc) are problems for both versions.
-Built-in method of dealing with Platinum Angel.  Not a huge pro, but one worth remembering.

Cons:
-A wider variety of sideboard cards can damage you.  The truly damaging cards rarely see use in main decks (notable exception being Crypt and rarely Needle), so with proper boarding you can usually overcome this weakness.
-Lack the ability to generate a real clock.  This build doesn't have the ability to drop down a sliver and two and just clock opponents with it, making you a bit more reliant on your combo to get the job done for you.

With all that said, my personal favorite is the Reveillark kill, as I like the flexibility of the timing of the kill, as well as (for the most part) being able to ignore my opponent's board.  Proper sideboarding helps get around a lot of the hate cards, as there's a variety of options to that (such as switching to the Sliver kill, or boarding in 4 Dreadnought for example).

[LennoxLewis86]

I've studies both decklists and I personally think the Revaillark combo is better. It is just a bit unfortunate that Ichorid, Welders and Crucibles are also very good so it isn't very hard to disrupt the combo. The Slivers kill is is almost as good, more fun and can put up a clock like mentioned before in this topic.
Could someone please explain why I should play Summoner's pact and more than 2 Pact of Negation? Summoner's Pact can't be used half as effectively as in the Revaillark combo and your Pact is only useful to protect your critters the turn AFTER they were put into play, otherwise you lose :s And could someone also explain the lone ESG MD to me? Why would you Pact for ESG in order to cast Flash and die the next turn? It just doesn't make any sense to me.. I understand the ESG SB, that if you play 3 after SB you have more acceleration and a way to own Daze.
SB into the Slivers Kill or Oath for that matter is a little bit too much waste of SB space IMO so I'm currently testing the Slivers.
I like Winged Sliver MD and Crystalline Sliver in the SB
Also, Mis-D works good, but not great..

[Everrid1234]

Seems like it depends on the meta. I think Platinum Angel and opposing blockers are the only real points the Sliver Kill player cares about.
Playing the combo while the opponent is tapped out or tricks like playing Flash during his combo, or shooting some Blazing Archon or over a Moat will be rare and suboptimal.

So if you fact lots of Ichorid (Narcomoeba, Zombies), Goblins (, Fish) and Tinker-->Angel Reveillark is better.
In the meta of Stax, Gush-combo, Tyrant Oath, Ichorid and Flash (maybe Deez Noughts) the Sliver kill seems a bit stronger.

And the "having a clock" Hydra posted only counts as a clock if you don't see an increasing number of blockers each turn. A Qurion Dryad blocks each sliver.

4 Dreadnoughts with Meddling Mage on Echoing Truth is also a nice kill variant. You could play this alternative kill even when you play Orchards main, this is pretty cool....but its no instant kill, that makes it much less playable.

[LennoxLewis86]

Alright, thanks! I will try both decks out and test them well.. Up to this point I have a better feel for the Silverbuild (after realising I've misplayed the entire deck)
I only played in MWS, with little testing and I thought up until now that poisonous 1 would stay poisonous 1 on each Sliver, meaning you
have to attack your oppo twice to win.. I can't believe how I managed to win so many games while not knowing how my own deck works.. :$

Oh well, back to testing!

[metalhead]

I was just curious what other people thought about muddle the mixture in flash. It is slow, but it offers more counter protection in the stupidly counter heavy metta, gives you an uncounterable way to find flash. and is amazingly good against ichorid for its ability to counter dread return, or fetch echoing truth to remove zombie tokens.

[Everrid1234]

A few more comments since nothing's going on here:

The Tidespout Tyrant could definitely be an answer to slower decks. While not being able to use Pacts of Negation to get the Oath through you could also board in some Duress and make sure you cast the spell successfully.
Playing Bounce brings a moxen on hand and you clear his board with 2 Tyrants. Very nice! Again Merchant Scroll help a lot here since it gives you the bounce you need.

I wait for the day Merchant Scroll becomes restricted (but since that would destroy Gush-based decks, Wizards has a problem).

Having Carrion Feeder is not a problem btw since you can just hardcast him before you go in the combo. This is not optimal, but a way to win with 1 more mana.

Is this correct: If i have got 2 combo-creatures on hand I can't combo out (since Body Snatcher only lets me discard 1)? Mogg Fanatic is also hardcastable with Orchards, this would make Orchards Main even better....

[LennoxLewis86]

Yes, in the Revaillark combo I would advice all players to try and use Forbidden Orchard..
Oxidize isn't good in the SB IMO.. I thought it would be good against certain match-ups but only against the match-ups you
should win anyway.. It's awesome against a T1 Sphere but who cares?  A one land, 3 FoW's and 3 Blue Pitch hand is also good vs. a T1
Flash with double pact back-up, sometimes nasty things happen and you can't really do anything about it..
I'm sticking to Chain of Vapor is my main answer to threats.. Pre and post board..
It makes Merchant Scroll that much better..
I found that Mystical Tutor is a very solid card in this deck.. It (eventually) get's you every piece of the combo, a counter, mana, bounce or Brainsorm to
get rid of combo-pieces in hand.. So it's actually an extra copy of Vamp Tutor with a risk factor (to get Hulk or ESG you need to fetch Pact)
A game with a Mystical and Brainstorm in your opening hand is very, very good.. EOT or ''doding Duress'' BS, upkeep Mystical results into gg every single time..
Ofcourse u need one of the 2 pieces to play but 1 land is np for me when playing a hand like this..

[pikayou]

Does Woodfall Primus have any place in a Flash, as an answer to Leyline/Crypt?  Flash it in, hit the Leyline or Crypt, get Primus back on the persist trigger -> destroy another permanent and get a trampling monster.

[kicks_422]

Yup, it's a great answer! Now, only if"

a. It's cc is <=6
b. Flash will trigger if a Leyline is in play

[pikayou]

No, no...I mean, as a Flash target (no hulk involved).

[Wagner]

Does Woodfall Primus have any place in a Flash, as an answer to Leyline/Crypt?

Still doesn't work against Leyline, sure it will kill it, but that's the only thing it will do.

No triggered ability can take effet while Flahs is resolving, so once you play Flash, you will put the Primus into play, then instead of going in the gravyard it will be removed from the game, afterwards it's CIP will trigger and resolve, destroying the Leyline, but by that time, the Primus will be removed from the game and won't come back as a big creature and won't come destroy another permanent.

[The Sovereign]

Unfortunately, there is only way to improve flash in its current state:

Remove its significance to the format via restriction, reverse-eratta, or some other creative means.

Any deck that is so non-interactive and painfully simple to pilot, yet puts up results, should be dealt with swiftly.  (See Trinisphere)

This thread is devoted to the strategic improvement of Flash, not a debate about its role in Vintage.  Please make more of an effort to address the thread topic in future posts.  -DA

[kaos42069]

How would the stack resolve with woodfall primus being flashed?

Flash playing woodfall primus
woodfall primus comes into pay ability goes on the stack
sac the primus to flash
then destroy leyline of the void

? its still a good idea because you can search the primus with summoner's pact

[pikayou]

The problem is, as someone mentioned, that Primus never comes back off his persist trigger.  He gets put into the gravyard before the Leyline is destroyed.