[New Idea?] MUG

[vartemis]

Cleaning up my office, I came across a rough decklist for a MUC list I was working on a while ago.  I took a look at it and updated it to what I thought would work in the face of a lot of today's decks.

4 Guile      - The "G" in MUG.  Functions as a beater with a little evasion, works with counters, and allows for a possible combo kill
1 Ancestral Recall   - Staple
2 Brain Freeze   - Combo end
4 Brainstorm   - Staple
4 Force of Will   - Staple
4 Mana Drain   - Staple
2 Mana Leak   - Semi-Staple
4 Merchant Scroll   - Staple
4 Counterbalance   - Works with Top
1 Black Lotus   - Staple
4 Chalice of the Void   - Good for low cost spells, and part of combo finish
1 Mox Jet      - Staple
1 Mox Pearl      - Staple
1 Mox Ruby   - Staple
1 Mox Sapphire   - Staple
4 Sensei's Divining Top   - Helps to dig, and works with Counterbalance
1 Sol Ring      - Staple
2 Flooded Strand   - Staple
8 Island      - Staple
2 Polluted Delta   - Staple
4 Tolaria West   - Searches for Moxes, Lotus, and Chalice, useful as a land in mulitples
1 Tolarian Academy   - Staple

Sideboard
1 Brain Freeze   - Part of Combo
1 Chain of Vapor   - Standard Sideboard Utility
1 Echoing Truth   - Standard Sideboard Utility
3 Extract      - Great against combo (tendrils and flash)
3 Stifle      - Good against combo (tendrils and flash)
4 Leyline of Singularity   - Works against Ichorid, gobbos, and anything else that uses things in multiples
2 Tormod's Crypt   - Flash, Ichorid, Welder tricks

The majority of the list is pretty straightforward.  Counter the bombs and get your dude down.  I want to try out the countertop deal and see how well it works in Vintage.  So far in testing it has been alright.  The interesting part of the deck is the possibility of the combo finish.  With a chalice down and a Guile out, you can cast a spell into the chalice, and keep replaying it to make an arbitrarily large storm count, then fire off a brainfreeze.

I would like for anyone, in particular MUC vets, as to the viability of the decklist and the strategy it presents.

Cheers,

j

[LennoxLewis86]

I don't like Counterbalance in Vintage but I haven't really tested it so it could work..
As a big Street Fighter fan I love to see a card named Guile.. I'd name the deck SF2.dec or even better Flash Kick.dec 
I'm sorry if this comment is a bit useless, but this is the first time I come across ''Guile'' and I just wanted to express my joy..

[vartemis]

Counterbalance is an interesting card.  It can turn your brainstorms into counterspells.  It also works well with the top, which is an excellent card filter.

[the boogie man]

I'm just wondering if guile isn't a cute trick. by the time i pay for a six mana beater, I want to win with it. instead of playing counterspells to play my opponent's spells, Why not protect a platinum angel instead? you can't lose if he doesn't die, and he is evasive. but perhaps the sheer amount of counterspells in the deck validate it. And I really do not like that many tops unless you are running tinker, which ties back in with a possible inclusion of platinum angel.

Also: Do you run a draw engine of any sort? How do you expect to keep a ton of cards in hand? maybe thirst for knowledge, since you run so many artifacts, and it is a really compact engine.

Also, I really hate tolaria west. Why waste your time?

maybe something like

-4 tolarian west
-1 mox
-1 top
-2 guile
-1 counterbalance
-1 brainfreeze


+4 thirsty
+ plaztz
+ tinker
+ 4 land

[vartemis]

I'm just wondering if guile isn't a cute trick. by the time i pay for a six mana beater, I want to win with it. instead of playing counterspells to play my opponent's spells, Why not protect a platinum angel instead? you can't lose if he doesn't die, and he is evasive. but perhaps the sheer amount of counterspells in the deck validate it. And I really do not like that many tops unless you are running tinker, which ties back in with a possible inclusion of platinum angel.

I thought about adding tinker/angel in the board.  Guile isn't that hard to get down between the drains and tolaria->lotus.  Guile essentially replaces Superman in a typical MUC build.  Yes he's more, but his ablities are greater in a MUC build, and he can utilize a combo finish if swinging just isn't going to work, unlike the old traditional MUC lists, where swinging was usually the only kill.

Do you run a draw engine of any sort? How do you expect to keep a ton of cards in hand? maybe thirst for knowledge, since you run so many artifacts, and it is a really compact engine.

I have brainstorms and tops.  I was going more for quality than quantity.  Is this the wrong approach for a MUC deck?  I dont have much experience with the archetype, so I could be wrong.  I used the brainstorms because they become pseudo counterspells when a counterbalance is on the board.

Also, I really hate tolaria west. Why waste your time?.

I originally had 4 Trinket Mages in place of the Tolaria.  They function almost identically (other than I can't get the tops now), but I found the possibility of mana much more useful than a 2/2 dork.  The first tolaria that comes up is usually used as a tutor, not a land.  the other ones are used as lands after I no longer need the tutor.

j

[gold eyes]

i am just wondering u are clearly mono blue in colour anyway so why are you running mana leak should u not use counter spell same mana for a solid counter?

[dawgie]

i am just wondering u are clearly mono blue in colour anyway so why are you running mana leak should u not use counter spell same mana for a solid counter?

An island and a mox in the opening hand makes Mana Leak a better choice than Counterspell.
MUC needs draw which was supplied by Phid (If I am thinking about the same MUC) and Impulses. The reason why you have 4 CoTV is because you want to go with CotV for 0 and 1 to stall the opponent and to gain card advantage through Phid and Impulses.
This is different from MUC though.
You can go with SDT for quality over quantity but the thing is, you will lose juice, from what I am foreseeing.

Isn't 4 Guiles a lot?

[Anusien]

If you can get 6 mana consistently, isn't Yawgmoth's Bargain better than Guile?

[RJ]

If you can get 6 mana consistently, isn't Yawgmoth's Bargain better than Guile?

Yes it is.  Guile is a neat card, but I don't think it can be played in Vintage.  If you get to 6 mana, you probably should just play something that wins the game on the spot or if you cheat it into play(Flash, Oath) there are better options.  That said, give it a shot and good luck.

[vartemis]

If you can get 6 mana consistently, isn't Yawgmoth's Bargain better than Guile?

Yes it is.  Guile is a neat card, but I don't think it can be played in Vintage.  If you get to 6 mana, you probably should just play something that wins the game on the spot or if you cheat it into play(Flash, Oath) there are better options.  That said, give it a shot and good luck.

But Guile can win on the spot with a chalice out.  Cast a spell with CC=Chalice counter #, and then keep recasting it for free into the chalice to build up a ridiculous storm count, and then fire off a brain freeze.

j

[the boogie man]

If you are a mono blue deck, why do you run duals?

I think that you could totally get away with running fetches, Islands, and a few wastelands. trinket mage would be good if you could reliably ween card advantage off him. The wastes could be dropped after uu is up, and maybe a crucible or two, both as a tinker target and as a drain sink. And, if it wasn't necessary, you could dump it on a thirst. I really think that thirst would work.

As far as win conditions go, I think that there are really only two really viable choices, unless I'm missing something. Platinum angel and tyrant are really the only things I can think of that I would consider running. You could even borrow tech from tyrant blue and run a show and tell. with both, you have superior board control by definition, can pseudo-reliably cast both, and counterspells only insure that you win, not just react in a cool way to a six-mana investment that will, in most cases, not win you the game anyway. plus, with tyrant, you can go infinite with two moxes, which would let you cut the chalice, or at least move it to the side. I really don't think that chalice cuts it maindeck in control, for the most part. Then, you could run all the moxes without fear of dead cards.

perhaps stifle is worth a look? It helps the mana denial plan that chalice covered, is blue, and stops flash, and can at least stifle a bazaar or something.

[vartemis]

If you are a mono blue deck, why do you run duals?

In the "edit" in my first post, I stated the reason I run duals is to keep my opponent guessing what I'm playing.  I don't know about you, but if I see my opponent playing island after island, I'm fairly confidant that they are playing MUC.

I think that you could totally get away with running fetches, Islands, and a few wastelands. trinket mage would be good if you could reliably ween card advantage off him. The wastes could be dropped after uu is up, and maybe a crucible or two, both as a tinker target and as a drain sink. And, if it wasn't necessary, you could dump it on a thirst. I really think that thirst would work.

Due to the triple cost on Guile, I dont know if I could get away with much more colorless mana.Trinket mage was tried, and may end up back in, but in my description I mentioned that I had converted the mages into Tolaria Wests.  Disadvantage is that I can't fetch tops, advantage is that extras can be dropped for mana.

As far as win conditions go, I think that there are really only two really viable choices, unless I'm missing something. Platinum angel and tyrant are really the only things I can think of that I would consider running. You could even borrow tech from tyrant blue and run a show and tell. with both, you have superior board control by definition, can pseudo-reliably cast both, and counterspells only insure that you win, not just react in a cool way to a six-mana investment that will, in most cases, not win you the game anyway. plus, with tyrant, you can go infinite with two moxes, which would let you cut the chalice, or at least move it to the side. I really don't think that chalice cuts it maindeck in control, for the most part. Then, you could run all the moxes without fear of dead cards.

Other than using tinker to cheat it in, platz is more than Guile in CMC, which is fine, but that also shows that the CMC of is not that unreasonable.  Tyrant is CMC , and therefore requires show and tell to make it work.  If I was going to go with him, why shouldn't I just build tyrant blue?  The counterspells aren't just there to react with Guile, they just happen to become even better when he's in play.  I am interested as to why you think chalice is no good in control though, and would like to hear your reasoning.

perhaps stifle is worth a look? It helps the mana denial plan that chalice covered, is blue, and stops flash, and can at least stifle a bazaar or something.

3 Stifle in the board.

j

[Anusien]

If you are a mono blue deck, why do you run duals?

In the "edit" in my first post, I stated the reason I run duals is to keep my opponent guessing what I'm playing.  I don't know about you, but if I see my opponent playing island after island, I'm fairly confidant that they are playing MUC.

Seems like a poor reason to give up free value to Magus of the Moon and Wasteland.  You have fewer actual Islands than GAT which runs 4 colors.  One of the advantages of Mono-U is mana stability.

[vartemis]

Good point.  I have gotten rid of the duals.  I left the fetches as they work well with brainstorm.

j

[the boogie man]

guile has 3 u in the mana cost, angel has none, and tyrant is much more threatening. also, to slow other decks down, null rod could be run, as you don't lose a whole bunch, and they pitch to thirst.

[vartemis]

guile has 3 u in the mana cost, angel has none, and tyrant is much more threatening. also, to slow other decks down, null rod could be run, as you don't lose a whole bunch, and they pitch to thirst.

In a Mono U deck, the 3 doesnt really matter.  If I went with tyrant, I could still use chalice as I can bounce the chalice set to as it gets bounced before the spell resolves.  I guess the bottom line is, can you build a deck around Guile?

j

[RJ]

guile has 3 u in the mana cost, angel has none, and tyrant is much more threatening. also, to slow other decks down, null rod could be run, as you don't lose a whole bunch, and they pitch to thirst.

In a Mono U deck, the 3 doesnt really matter.  If I went with tyrant, I could still use chalice as I can bounce the chalice set to as it gets bounced before the spell resolves.  I guess the bottom line is, can you build a deck around Guile?

j

That was the point that I was alluding to earlier.  The card is interesting, but it will not make the cut in the most effective mono blue builds.  I love this archetype, and I love Guile, but Guile is just not the best option available to you.