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Author Topic: [Deck] Empty Gush: It beats up on Flash like a redheaded stepchild  (Read 8075 times)
AngryPheldagrif
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« on: April 01, 2008, 10:15:20 pm »

There's been so much discussion of how broken Flash is, and one bone of contention I've purported is the fact that beating it is honestly not all that difficult with adequate preparation and experience. Since I support this angle of argument, I feel it is my duty to back this up with a solid contender list that has a very powerful angle against Flash.

Empty Gush (also known as Empty Gifts) is an ICBM innovation first majorly unveiled at SCG: Indianapolis, where it took 3 of the T8 slots with another two, including me, sitting at X-2. Not a bad record considering that was all 5 of us that piloted the deck. Without much after that, the deck stayed quiet. The deck's next major accomplishment was SCG: Chicago, where I piloted it to the T8 both days, losing day 1 in the T4 to a teammate, and losing day 2 in the T8 to a teammate after a narrow play mistake in the hour-long game 3. Chicago was a milestone for the deck in terms of Flash, as the matchup was favorable to the point where I actively looked forward to facing the deck, 2-0'ing it three times over the weekend including my day one match to make T8.

Empty Gush is a unique contender in that while it shares GushBond with the popular GAT lists as well as the new Tyrant Oath builds, it otherwise occupies a unique position as the successor to the restricted Gifts decks. As I've built and rebuilt the deck over the past months to adapt to the metagame changes, I've taken the majority of strategic input from my old work on Twilight Gifts. For those that missed it (as there was no discussion on TMD due to my bannedness at the time), Twilight Gifts was a deck designed and refined up to the point where the namesake card was restricted to be the best deck in the format. You can read about it here. By abusing the effect the card Gifts Ungiven has on assigning roles (it allowed you to completely cheat the system of 'who's the beatdown' by going from full control to winning the game in the space of four mana), we achieved matchup results so unbelievable that we pretty much had to operate under the assumption that Gifts had to be restricted and we were correct. At one point our only matchup that could even approach 50/50 was a well-prepared SS, the deck designed to beat Gifts in the first place.

Unfortunately that fairy tale ended in a rightful restriction, and our preparations were spoiled by the unexpected gift of Gush back into the metagame. Still, the fundamental abuse that Twilight Gifts utilized, bending the beatdown, is still somewhat workable into the current metagame. Swapping the broken Gifts engine for the somewhat less powerful but more intricate Gush engine requires a good deal of fine-tuning. Here is the current list up for discussion:

Quote
Empty Gush Mk. II: The Predator

1 Duress
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mana Drain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Thoughtseize
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Misdirection
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Discretionary slots

The first thing you should notice is that the list is highly linear. The deck has less draw than the average list nowadays with only Brainstorm, Gush, and the Merchant Scroll engine, while being armed with a significantly larger complement of disruption. This creates a drastic shift in the dynamic of the opening hands as opposed to GAT and Oath variants, namely in the Flash and Long matchups, in that you have a high probability of having two disruption cards active and available on your first turn. Against combo this is obviously a heavy boon when you don't have to spend your first land drop digging for an answer, but it also significantly alters the dynamic of the Gush mirror because it neatly cripples their ability to find and resolve Ancestral Recall (and thus cuts the Recall -> Will line of play out of their book), making their options more linear and dependent on GushBond, channeling their play into a predictable nature that you can focus on defeating.

For those who enjoy the great fun of role assignment, the deck's purpose can be stated as simply playing the control role and maintaining card parity while leveraging pure quality and Ancestral Recall for advantages up to the point where an endgame scenario can be reached, usually consisting of creating a number of ETW tokens that can kill your opponent before their resource accumulation can recover from the damage you've dealt it. This may occur within the first two turns of the game, generally with a number of tokens between 6 and 10, or later, generally with a lethal quantity. Against Flash, your actual primary win condition is in fact their own Pacts, as ETW should only realistically be cast at a point in which it is lethal and followed by Time Walk. Obviously against the Sliver kill version it should be used defensively pre-sideboard, but that is a no-brainer. Tendrils of Agony comes in post-sideboard in those matches where your general kill condition tends to be a lethal ETW, as it is more efficient and does not trip Oath.

I don't believe I have to go through and explain every slot, but I should note a couple issues people may bring up. Mana Drain and Chain of Vapor are utility targets for Merchant Scroll. Mana Drain as utility may seem an odd role, but it forces a dynamic shift in any matchup where the endgame involves resolving sorcery-speed spells, mainly GAT, Long, and Workshop. Mana Drain as a singleton serves the same role Cryptic Command does in many of the Standard and Block decks it sees or saw play in: assembling 1UUU serves a strategically crippling blow to the opponent where they are almost forced to throw away a relevant spell into extreme resource disadvantage. In effect, it turns anything they do at sorcery speed into Russian Roulette. Mana Drain in Empty Gush is almost a combo piece and a very amusing one at that. Circumstances have simply turned it into a 1-of lately. It can easily occupy the second flex slot for more Workshop-heavy metagames.

The Duress count has fluctuated periodically, as low as 4 and I've tested as high as 7, but 5 is the safest number from our experience. The large quantity is necessary to prevent opposing decks from sculpting their hands, while you are largely protected from their own since Thoughseize is handily Misdirectable. As per the control role, Duresses tend to take the most powerful card in their hand under almost any circumstances, not necessarily the most immediately threatening. The idea would be that if you can Duress their killers and use the rest of your control to prevent them from resolving Yawgmoth's Will (or better yet Duress the Will itself), they will not be able to overcome the card quality disadvantage.

The discretionary slots are available for virtually anything your heart desires. Use them to sharpen the decks already potent attacks towards your expected opponents. These can supplement your bounce, Duresses, even your draw or tutor base. They can also shore up the win conditions should you feel Tinker/Colossus or a maindeck Tendrils is necessary. Rebuild and/or Hurkyl's Recall help in a shop-heavy meta, or perhaps a higher utility Echoing Truth. Heck, run maindeck Tormod's Crypts if you think you're going to see a miillion Ichorids or Flashes and want help stealing game 1's.



As for sideboarding, I don't honestly feel that sideboards are relevant to the discussion. Each built board should be tuned towards your local metagame and largely meant to compensate for the opponent's sideboarding. Having a strong Duress complement maindeck helps soften the blow from anything they bring in. The only advice I would offer is to run Leyline of the Void because it is simply the most efficient graveyard disruption, and that people fearing Workshops (one of the decks more delicate matchups) should strongly consider Viashino Heretic, a highly effective and permanent solution that also helps immensely in the narrow but still occasionally seen Slaver matchup. Extra REBs, Duresses, and of course creature removal are always welcome, while having a few extra answers for Ichorid such as Yixlid Jailor or Pithing Needle never hurts.



Something important to note: I assign the deck the control role, but I guess it would best be described as contra-control on the basis that while the idea of preventing the opponent from winning is identical, it takes the opposite route from normal control which tends to emphasize resource accumulation, while Empty Gush is largely predicated on short term resources and tends to move to the prototypical control endgame significantly faster (and even occasionally simply comboing out on turn 1 or 2). As this may be an extremely foreign concept to a traditional player, there is an available modification that uses the 2 discretionary slots as well as removing the REB, Pyroblast, and third Misdirection for a set of Ponders and the second Mana Drain, allowing the deck to be played much closer to basic control-combo, almost a more versatile form of Drain Tendrils.
_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________

I guess this falls somewhere between deck discussion and a mini-primer, but again I simply feel it is my duty to put forth the list as a solution to the Flash problem as I very much assure you from personal experience that playing this against Flash is a thoroughly enjoyable duel of skill from either side. If nothing else, it never hurts to have another archetype to discuss.

Peace and love,
The AngryPheldagrif
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2008, 01:40:10 am »

I've actually been testing empty gush along with gush tinker a lot in the past month, initially looking at it as a solution to tyrant oath, and now flash. Both list have been performing very well, I feel incredibly confidant with both lists in every game I play. However, I have a few questions/ coments.
   For the most part the deck plays very well, but a lot of the time life loss becomes an issue with thoughtseize, so much so that I’ve been playing 4 duress and x thoughseize. There are two reasons a can see this being a mistake:  Tarmogoyf and magus of the moon. Is it wrong to play such little thoughseize under the assumption that my win conditions are just better than goyf? Or that 90% of the time I should by able to find a FOW or fire/ice before my opponent can get  {2} {R}?
   I’ve been primarily testing tinker/ETW/Meloku as my win conditions. I’ve found that the slight majority of my wins have come from Meloku, closely followed by ETW.
I’ve found that Meloku generates around 6 flying power pretty easily. It’s also minimally affected by what I’ve found to be the most commonly run “answer” card in the format, Echoing truth, and occasionally can do ultra broken things, such as double activating library of Alexandria. Has anyone else had similar success with Meloku? I feel that running x ETW and 1x meloku should be highly considered. I do see how Meloku fails to synergize with the gifts combo feel of what Dan's list is trying to achieve, but It seems to at least be a safe bet with the amount of extirpate I've been seeing.
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2008, 09:02:12 am »

I am also not thinking that Flash is unbeatable. You have to get a card which is in the deck as a 4-of, you do this via slower tutors what means you normally combo out turn 2-3. This gives the opponent enough time to find answers. I often enjoyed playing against Flash with my Fish deck, too.

I think Flash's main disadvantage are the combo parts which really have no use as a stand-alone. Your deck can use most of its parts in any time of the game. It concentrates on a few win conditions which means there can be lots of hate played.

The deck has problems against Stax (like each deck), the manabase is a bit weak. I am not sure if the deck should be hyped too much. Ok, in the current meta it could be cool, but it can lose to normal aggro decks with some GY hate. I would always board Leylines against it. And losing a lot of the draw in the grave by Leyline while searching for an answer (called Fastbond or Chain of Vapor) takes time and lets the other player Duress you. And for a nice combo the GY IS needed or the Fastbond IS needed, no matter what people say here..

I just wanted to say that this deck also got it's flaws. There is no best deck, and this is good.  Maybe you think about playing Oath-SB Wink
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2008, 09:38:47 am »

I've actually been testing empty gush along with gush tinker a lot in the past month, initially looking at it as a solution to tyrant oath, and now flash. Both list have been performing very well, I feel incredibly confidant with both lists in every game I play. However, I have a few questions/ coments.
   For the most part the deck plays very well, but a lot of the time life loss becomes an issue with thoughtseize, so much so that I’ve been playing 4 duress and x thoughseize. There are two reasons a can see this being a mistake:  Tarmogoyf and magus of the moon. Is it wrong to play such little thoughseize under the assumption that my win conditions are just better than goyf? Or that 90% of the time I should by able to find a FOW or fire/ice before my opponent can get  {2} {R}?
   I’ve been primarily testing tinker/ETW/Meloku as my win conditions. I’ve found that the slight majority of my wins have come from Meloku, closely followed by ETW.
I’ve found that Meloku generates around 6 flying power pretty easily. It’s also minimally affected by what I’ve found to be the most commonly run “answer” card in the format, Echoing truth, and occasionally can do ultra broken things, such as double activating library of Alexandria. Has anyone else had similar success with Meloku? I feel that running x ETW and 1x meloku should be highly considered. I do see how Meloku fails to synergize with the gifts combo feel of what Dan's list is trying to achieve, but It seems to at least be a safe bet with the amount of extirpate I've been seeing.


You can tweak the numbers a little bit, but you absolutely should never be running more Duress than Thoughtseize. Not only is the card critical in a number of matchups (especially the dangerous shop matchup), it also does something that never seems to get much credit. It takes Protean Hulk. Really the only matchup at all that Thoughtseize is worse against is Storm Combo, so unless you're in a Tendrils-infested meta I would advise either 4/1 or 3/2 in favor of Thoughtseize.

RE Meloku: We ran it in older lists but it simply isn't fast enough for you want it to do and its synergy with the deck goes down significantly when you can no longer count on Mana Drain to power it out. Meloku can't generate a 20 power kill, therefore it is suboptimal. Tinker goes for the same reasons, except in select metagames. It is just too slow. Better to set up an ETW. Being Extirpated is a fairly narrow reason to add another maindeck kill, especially since you should be boarding in a Tendrils in most of the matchups that could see ETW.

The deck has problems against Stax (like each deck), the manabase is a bit weak. I am not sure if the deck should be hyped too much. Ok, in the current meta it could be cool, but it can lose to normal aggro decks with some GY hate. I would always board Leylines against it. And losing a lot of the draw in the grave by Leyline while searching for an answer (called Fastbond or Chain of Vapor) takes time and lets the other player Duress you. And for a nice combo the GY IS needed or the Fastbond IS needed, no matter what people say here..

I just wanted to say that this deck also got it's flaws. There is no best deck, and this is good.  Maybe you think about playing Oath-SB Wink

In most locales Stax has been shoved aside by Flash and especially Tyrant Oath, helping this deck out quite nicely by removing a tough matchup. I'm not overhyping the deck, just presenting it as another choice. I have no idea why I'd sideboard into Oath. That would just make it a worse Tyrant Oath.

As for Leyline, I'm not sure how it is supposed to be so powerful against me. It neuters a grand total of two cards and weakens a third, while costing an opponent 4 deck slots and doing nothing functionally to disrupt my kill.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2008, 11:57:24 am »

Dan:

I am very impressed with this post, I have to admit.  It's well thought out and well structured.  One problem I have though is the lack of one of the best blue vintage cards printed since Gifts Ungiven.

Ponder.


Since the unrestriction of Gush, I've played everything with Gushbond other than Oath: Empty Gush, GushTendrils, and GAT.  Every single deck with gush relies on using it's draw engine to overpower the opponent as well as find the critical land drops on turn 2 and 3, since the lists all have between 12 and 15 lands, and none run a full compliment of artifact mana.    Your list is only running 12 lands and 6 mana producing artifacts, so finding lands is imperative to your game plan.  Do you feel you are ever short of mana, even more-so now that EmptyGush has actually dropped mana sources?

Another problem I have, not with the decklist but with EmptyGush in general, is that it has no real way other than fastbond to produce enough mana to end the game, since it's win condition costs 4.  The deck cannot usually aggressively cast it's gushes without hurting it's resource production.  I have YET to lose to EmptyGush where they don't resolve Fastbond.   What are your thoughts about adding 1 dark ritual to power off Yawgmoths Wills, give a quicker ETW, and maybe maindecking 1 tendrils?  In my experience, 1 Dark Ritual is pretty savage to throw into a gifts ungiven pile.

One other card I think you need to be running, in part because of flash but mostly because of the formats reliance right now on permanents with a casting cost under 3, is Engineered Explosives.  I think this card is a musthave for any non-dedicated deck (GAT, Tendrils, monocolored shops, and Flash being the only truely dedicated decks) because of it's resiliance against almost everything.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2008, 08:43:11 am »

What are your thoughts about adding 1 dark ritual to power off Yawgmoths Wills, give a quicker ETW, and maybe maindecking 1 tendrils?  In my experience, 1 Dark Ritual is pretty savage to throw into a gifts ungiven pile.

If powering out a quick EtW is a concern why not include the ever powerful Mana Vault? It nets the same amount of mana(I know it is colorless/can't be recast for Yawg's will) and it can be cast off a basic Island/off color mox so your not exposing your mana base to Wasteland.
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2008, 09:05:02 am »

What are your thoughts about adding 1 dark ritual to power off Yawgmoths Wills, give a quicker ETW, and maybe maindecking 1 tendrils?  In my experience, 1 Dark Ritual is pretty savage to throw into a gifts ungiven pile.

If powering out a quick EtW is a concern why not include the ever powerful Mana Vault? It nets the same amount of mana(I know it is colorless/can't be recast for Yawg's will) and it can be cast off a basic Island/off color mox so your not exposing your mana base to Wasteland.

Powering out a quick ETW is not a concern, though. The deck wants to play control until it can set ETW to a lethal range. A quick ETW is useless against a lot of decks right now. Oath, Flash, Tendrils. That's likely half the metagame right there. Besides, you need to cut off their ability to tutor up Echoing Truth before you pop out the tokens.

[edit]: Soly, you mentioned Ponder. Ponder is a great card, yes, but in this deck it modifies the decision tree towards a more conventional line of control play, so I have 4 Ponders in as a sort of variant. Read the second-to-last paragraph of the main post where I talk about it.
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2008, 11:38:37 am »

Dan:

I did read your section on Ponder.  You really didn't go too in depth about why you should or shouldn't play it, except to say that playing them is in one of your build.  I think that playing them is almost necessary with a deck that needs to find mana early, Fastbond or  Black Lotus midgame, and then find Yawgmoth's Will to end the game.  And yes, I do realize that I'm being very generic, however in my experience I realize that without those cards, this deck is just mediocre (After all, it IS the Gush engine that makes this deck what it is).  You also can dig for more control or duress effects early.   Many times playing my different Tendrils builds of Gush, I find myself having some form of black mana producer and blue mana producer able to be dropped on turn 1.   I recall playing against Jamison at the ICBM Open#2, and opening with  Jet, Island, Force of Will, Ponderx2, Fastbond, Gush.  That hand is actually pretty good, since it has 2 ways to find land, a start to the Gush engine, and protection.  Jamison was playing Long though, and could easily win through one counterspell.  Having that ponder gave me the ability to dig for a second Force or a  Duress, which I did find.  Granted yes, brainstorm could have been there too, but without a brainstorm or ponder, that hand is only mediocre.   Having 8 different 3-deep effects increases your ability to find counterspells, Duress effects, lands, or combo pieces.

And I always thought more complicated decision trees were a good thing when playing control.   
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2008, 01:01:52 pm »

What are your thoughts about adding 1 dark ritual to power off Yawgmoths Wills, give a quicker ETW, and maybe maindecking 1 tendrils?  In my experience, 1 Dark Ritual is pretty savage to throw into a gifts ungiven pile.

If powering out a quick EtW is a concern why not include the ever powerful Mana Vault? It nets the same amount of mana(I know it is colorless/can't be recast for Yawg's will) and it can be cast off a basic Island/off color mox so your not exposing your mana base to Wasteland.

Powering out a quick ETW is not a concern, though. The deck wants to play control until it can set ETW to a lethal range. A quick ETW is useless against a lot of decks right now. Oath, Flash, Tendrils. That's likely half the metagame right there. Besides, you need to cut off their ability to tutor up Echoing Truth before you pop out the tokens.

I was voicing the idea of concern with a anti workshop.dec train of thought. I should have been a bit clearer in my reasoning for the inclusion of Mana Vault, my bizad.

I myself have been tinkering with the same deck concept and have found the deck to be too tight to include 4x Ponder. In the decklist Dan presented only 2x discretionary slots are available for customization. Now in order to make such room for Ponders 3-4 one would have to go about cutting some form of disruption. It is stated that the deck has a high percentage of having two pieces of disruption on turn one, hence the strength against Flash/The Mirror, right? Now, how would one go about adding the last two Ponder's without sacrificing the probability of having 2x form of disruption on turn 1? I am a bit curious as to what can be cut in favor of more digging capabilities. 
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2008, 01:05:02 pm »

Regrowth is a good starting point, Twaun.  Another card I just can't stand in gush builds is Gifts Ungiven.  It goes against the whole point of Gush decks to cheat on as many mana costs as possible.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2008, 02:23:20 pm »



Powering out a quick ETW is not a concern, though. The deck wants to play control until it can set ETW to a lethal range. A quick ETW is useless against a lot of decks right now. Oath, Flash, Tendrils. That's likely half the metagame right there. Besides, you need to cut off their ability to tutor up Echoing Truth before you pop out the tokens.


Why not just run Tendrils over EtW, then, if your normal game plan is to wait until EtW is lethal? A lethal Tendrils is a hell of a lot better than a lethal Empty.
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 10:27:45 am »

@ negator

there are 2 major reasons:
1.Versatility, though I admit this is less of a point in our narrow flash, goyf, gush meta.
2.Getting   {2} {B} {B} can be hard to achieve in a four color mana base where your win starts with: play fetch out of the bin, crack for trop, play fastbond from the bin. Warrens makes you less dependent on lotus and your gifts pile needs less pieces/ thus options go up.

as for as the opponent tutoring echoing truth, from what I've seen in testing, the counter density you get from gushing to storm 10 gets you a lot for fow/misd. But they have resolved ET a few times.
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 11:15:32 am »

John:

Gush builds can easily get  {2} {B} {B} just as easily as {3}{R} in the situation where you're casting will out of the bin.  The thing you have to realize is the deck is reliant on casting Fastbond+Gush, Ancestral Recall, and Yawgmoth's Will.  It's just how it is (and it does this quite well, actually).  I've played gush tendrils with 1 dark ritual as an enabler, and have won turn 2 and turn 3 with Tendrils of Agony a large amount of the time.   The deck can become a faster combo deck but worse with control if you just change about five cards.    Tendrils doesn't give your opponent the chance to set Explosives with  {X}={0} or Echoing Truth, like Empty does.  That said, my combo build I'm playing currently both plays ETW and Tendrils.
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2008, 07:46:11 pm »

I tweaked a list, and piloted it to 3rd place yesterday.

I ran 4 main deck ponders, as well as a second mana drain, which I did enjoy. For reference here is my list I used:

2 Misdirection
2 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Thoughtseize
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth
1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's will
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Volcanic island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

And after playing the deck, I would only change 1 ponder, to a main deck pyroblast. I chose the more drain tendrils type approach as I felt it was closer to my own playstyle and it worked out great for me.
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