[Deck/Primer] NLD- Next Level Doomsday

[Negator13]

I've been working on various forms of Gush Storm since Gush was unrestricted last year. I played (and placed) in a few tournaments last summer with varying builds of Gush TPS. They were pretty decent, but never really better than GAT, which was what I was aiming for. My builds always included 4 Merchant Scroll, because I think that card is the backbone of the GushBond engine and I don't think Fastbond is generally worth running without them. The problem was that Merchant Scroll doesn't play nice with Draw 7's and cards like Necropotence and Bargain, because it takes too much mana to cast a Draw 7 and then Scroll and then whatever you Scrolled for in the same turn, and even if you can, you aren't gauranteed to hit a win condition, nor to have sufficient storm or a large enough graveyard to win with Will. The other problem was that (this was pre-Ponder) I had to run more lands than GAT in place of cantrips like Opt, because unlike GAT, which can function off a couple cards at a time, Storm Combo needs a critical mass of a mix of different spells in order to go off. This made the deck less threat dense than GAT, and furthermore due to the nature of Storm it made it very vulnerable to Duress. Before everyone started running Duress, storm combo was amazing because you could just sit there accumulating resources until the other deck put you on a clock, and then at the last second you would just unload your hand and they wouldn't be able to stop it (because disruption and uncounterable Storm spells trump counterspells). However now that Duress is omnipresent, traditional storm combo just doesn't work anywhere near as well because they can cherry-pick the critical spells from your hand, leaving you with a bunch of support and no gas. Not to mention the fact that the format has gotten so much faster, you just don't have time to sculpt your hand anymore anyway. Finally, Dark Ritual was very underwhelming in the builds I was working with, as it was really only good with Yawgmoth's Will.

So then Ponder was printed, which gave Gush Storm decks a viable cantrip to replace some mana sources and conditional, high CC cards like FoF and Gifts, which again just don't really work well in a meta this fast and with so much Duress effects. Erik Becker used Ponder to come up with the most successful Gush Storm build to date, TTS. TTS has a lot of things going for it: it has a strong, cheap draw engine in BS/Ponder/Gush, it uses Dark Ritual effectively, it has a decent amount of disruption, and its draw 7's, while not amazing, are generally effective. However there are a few critical things I don't like about it. First, it does not use Merchant Scroll, which as I said before I believe to be the backbone of the GushBond engine and basically necessary to make Fastbond worth running. Now, I understand that Scroll does not play nice with the Draw 7's and (to a lesser extent) Necropotence, but that leads me to another large problem with TTS: Draw 7's are absolutely terrible in this metagame. No, worse than that. Flash can kill you at instant speed off your own Twister/Jar, and the best decks are packing innumerable manners of disruption together with incredibly fast clocks, which means that if you have to pass the turn (and this is far too likely for my taste) you are going to lose. Period. Now some players have replaced Tinker/Jar with 2 Scrolls, which is a step, but still not enough. You're still running Twister, and the Scrolls do not play nicely with that or Necropotence.

Still, for all its faults TTS is still a very viable deck, and has been the focus of my attention since Becker debuted it. The most exciting addition to the deck by far has been the addition of a single Doomsday. Doomsday offers you a "Win Now" option if at any point you are holding it and any one of Ponder, Brainstorm, or Gush, making it a vastly superior option. What pushes it over the top is the fact that you can win through Leyline of the Void with it. Previously, the omnipresence of Leyline of the Void was a serious hindrance to the development of Gush storm decks. If you follow the natural progression that adding 4 Merchant Scrolls and 4 Ponder to the deck takes you, you end up with a very streamlined machine that very consistently and very quickly finds Fastbond, chains Gushes together, finds Will, does it all again, and finishes with a huge Tendrils. In a vacuum, this gameplan is extremely powerful, and resilient because you can run 4-6 Duress/Thoughtseize, 4 FoW's, X Misd's, and 4 Scrolls to find them. Unfortunately, the existence of Leyline is a HUGE problem for that type of gameplan, especially since Flash and Ichorid are so powerful that everyone is running 4 in their sideboards. The addition of Doomsday is simply an amazing, elegant and powerful solution to that problem.

My question to all of you is, if the plan A of Fastbond-Gush-YawgWill is the best way to win in a vacuum, beaten only by Leyline, and Doomsday offers a tight and efficient answer to said Leyline, why not just focus on those two plans? Cut the terrible Draw 7's, cut Necro, run 4 Scrolls, and make the Doomsday plan more of a "Plan A" than a "Plan B". How do you do this? I'll show you:




Gushin' DDay

3 Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Doomsday
1 Research/Development
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall



Before I get into card choice/matchups, here are the standard DDay kills for those wondering: (These are taken directly from the TTS thread)

With Gush (nothing else needed) or with Merchant Scroll (mana needed to cast Scroll)

Black Lotus
Ancestral
Petal
Will
R/D

Gush, Lotus, pop for Blue, Recall floating UU, Petal, Will, Petal, Lotus, pop for GUUU, Research shuffling in Lotus, Petal, Tendrils. Recall again, play Lotus, Petal, Tendrils for a lot.

With Ponder (UU needed post-DDay)

Recall
Lotus
Ritual
Will
Tendrils (There's probably a better, higher storm count somewhere using R/D)

With Brainstorm (2 extra cards in hand needed)

Lotus
Ritual
Will
Tendrils
Random (Again, there's probably a better kill with R/D)

Against Leyline of the Void: (Need Gush or Scroll for Gush, with mana to cast it obviously)

Lotus
Ancestral
Petal
R/D
Brainstorm

Lotus for UUU, Recall, Petal, R/D floating U, shuffling in Petal, Lotus, Tendrils. Brainstorm into them, put back the lands, cast Petal, Lotus, Tendrils.

------------------------

This deck is more or less the culmination of all my work with Gush-based storm. It is fast, consistent, and streamlined, and it is also highly disruptive and resilient. It basically has two equally viable Plan A's: Gushbond-> Will or Doomsday + Ponder/BS/Gush/Scroll. I think one thing a lot of people overlooked is that Merchant Scroll -> Gush combos with Doomsday just as well as anything else. Looking at this list, you have a VERY solid draw engine, a solid manabase of 14 lands including 3 basic Islands, 10 disruption spells + 4 Scrolls to find them, and a variety of very affordable and very powerful bombs that win on the spot. The deck plays pretty much the same way every game: You spend the first turn setting up with a draw spell, or casting Duress, depending on the matchup, and then you either win turn 2 or spend it finishing setting up and disrupting, and win by turn 3 pretty much all the time, outside of extended attrition battles. Which avenue to victory you take is basically dependent on whether you find Fastbond or not, or if you are unsure how much disruption you are facing. If you find Fastbond or a tutor for Fastbond early, you'll generally go off that way, chaining Gushes and Scrolls into a game winning Will, otherwise you can just win with Doomsday unless you afraid of 2+ counters from the other player and don't have sufficient backup. A nice feature is that one plan can often segue into another; you can start Gush-bonding, and then if you find a Duress/Fow you can often just switch gears and immediately go for the DDay kill. Due to the flexible nature of having a deck full of draw spells, Scrolls, and disruption, you can also adapt yourself to the control role as you see fit, finishing with a combo kill out of nowhere.

Against Flash or other fast combo you you're basically trying to stave them off for the first couple turns, and then combo out before they get a chance to recover. The deck actually does quite a damn good job of this, especially with Leylines and Extirpates coming out of the sideboard. My testing has been favorable against Flash both pre- and post-board.

Against Tyrant Oath, which doesn't have much disruption, you are a heavy favorite as you can usually just knock the one disruption spell out of their hand with your own, and win handily with Doomsday. The great thing is that Leyline does NOTHING to this deck, so you just have to watch out for Extirpate post-board, fighting it with Duress, Seize, and your own Extirpates. You can also run some number of Xantid Swarms in the board for this.

GAT seems fairly even to favorable as you are just as threat dense and your clock is much faster than theirs. The most frequent way to lose is repeated Duress effects from them, which is one reason why I'm running the full count of Underground Seas, so that you can cast Doomsday without needing a Ritual. Duress is great against traditional storm because it can take out either the mana acceleration or the bombs from the storm player's hand, depending on which is best, but it loses a lot of effectiveness here because you have essentially a one-card combo (technically, it's a 2 card combo, but the other piece is any one of 16 cards, all of which are highly useful on their own).

I haven't had much of a chance to test against Shops, but they are at a low point right now especially in the Northeast so I'm not too worried about them. Post board you have access to Dark Confidant, a basic Swamp, and possibly Engineered Explosives/additional Hurkyls, so I don't see it being too unfavorable. Chalice, Spheres, and Magus if you're not prepared for it can give you a lot of trouble though, so fetch out basics ASAP and counter only the most relevant threats. Without Spheres down, they can't do anything about Doomsday, barring REB, so that seems like the best course of action.



As for individual card choices/lack thereof: I don't run Necro because it really isn't very good in this deck. It's best turn 1, and any point after that DDay is better, but even on turn 1 it often fizzles because of the presence of Scrolls and lack of artifact acelleration. I don't run Imperial Seal because in my opinion DDay is strictly better than it. I run the 14th land over Mox Emerald because you really, really need to hit your first two land drops in order to activate Gush, and there isn't much use for green mana here. I run Research in order to ensure that DDay kills them regardless of life total; this is what makes Doomsday a viable Plan A card. Time Walk would be nice to fit in, but there just isn't room; if anything the 4th Ponder could be cut for it, but I like Ponder better because it is better at digging for that second land and is better mid-combo.

Sideboard: I won't post a set sideboard because it is obviously meta-dependent. However this is the pool of cards you really want to look at:

Swamp (for mana denial decks/Magus of the Moon)
Dark Confidant (Against anything with a moderate clock and lots of attrition, ie. Stax/Gat)
Extirpate (Flash, Ichorid, anything with FoW's such as GAT, Oath)
Xantid Swarm
Hurkyl's Recall
Engineered Explosives (GREAT at removing Spheres, random creatures, etc)
Pithing Needle
Leyline of the Void
Echoing Truth

And I always run 1 Research/Dev in the board as extra insurance against Leyline (in case you happen to blow your Lotus/Ancestral early). You can also run an additional Tendrils in the board, as it is useful when you board in the Bobs as well as against things like Earwig Squad/Jester's Cap.


In closing, I think this deck is basically as good as it gets for Gush-based combo. Always keep in mind that you have two, equally good primary plans of attack: Gushbond->Will or Doomsday. If one doesn't work in a particular matchup/board state, the other one generally will, that is the beauty of the deck. Now since this is the question I'm sure most of you are asking yourselves, I won't say that this deck is better than Flash, but I won't say it's worse than it either. The key differences are that it is IMMUNE to Leyline, and that all of its "combo pieces" are good on their own, very good in fact. There are no dead draws, save drawing both your Doomsdays, and to a lesser extent draw Research, but remember, you run both Brainstorm and Force of Will. Your clock is slower, and Flash does have better offensive protection in Pact of Negation, but you have a far more consistent and resilient game plan, and better all-around disruption. And, again, you are immune to the most common hate card in the format, plus you get to run it yourself.

Thanks for reading, I know it was long, but I just want to get this out there. I'll be coming home from college the first week of May, so I'm eager to get back on the 'circuit', as far as weekly t1 tournaments go. I'll be playing this, and I hope some of you will too.

-Justin

[Negator13]

I just want to add that I see this deck as sort of the midpoint between the Control decks in the format (Empty Gush, Metatog) and the faster but less disruptive combo decks (TTS, Gush Tendrils, random Long variants). It plays the control role almost as well as the former while retaining an aggressive and effective route to a quick victory that the combo decks have. It is reliant neither on Fastbond nor Will and can easily adapt itself to play either role, which is why I think it is superior to all of the aforementioned decks.

[hauntedechos]

I guess I will step up as the first to be flamed.

I see this deck as an extension of TTS.  IMO, limiting your bombs to Fastbond or Dday is asking for trouble, given that Shops are running Tinker - Caps and even I (TTS) am running Tinker/Cap, which I know will be an increasing trend (I've noticed that there are TSOath lists with three tyrants main to dodge this fact).

One of the reasons I feel that Eric omitted the scrolls in TTS was to illustrate the fact that Fastbond is a great route to victory, but not a cornerstone of the deck.  This leaves room for flexibility and innovation, which we have seen in the TTS thread.  Furthermore, it was only an attempt to generate card advantage, which was the only real issue that separates Ponder Long and TTS.  With the inclusion of four Gush, this was achieved.  The only aspect of the deck that needed to be looked at was the blatant lack luster performance of draw sevens, in specific A) the fact that they would fizzle more often than not and B) given the meta's speed, handing a fresh seven to you opponent is a bad thing...very bad.  Dooms Day has come along and I have fought hard to advocate it's inclusion since a poster (I'm very sorry to have forgotten who, please step up) mentioned it.

Fast forward to where we are now with TTS vs. your offering:  We have the use of Fast bond when it is in hand, or seems a reasonable tutor target, yet we don't NEED it or lean on it.  We have D-day as a target as well when the situation calls for it, so really we are no different than your offering, aside from the fact that we are not carved in stone and have more room to play with.  Most recently this includes the thought of bringing Bargain back, this allows both of us to circumvent Leylines.

My fear is, with a deck like this (essentially combo GAT, given the full  Gush/Bond engine), you are playing into the hands of GAT hate.  Spell snare is starting to get a glance, given Tyrant  inclusion amongst other decks that could use it.  I think this offering needs to look at reducing it's gush/bond dependancy and look towards other avenues that will ensure speed, streamlined plays, card advantage: while not getting nailed by traditional GAT hate.  The mana base with a higher land count is a great start I feel.

So let's start off with a few questions:

has the increased land count been any sort of a hinderance to you?  I see how it would bolster against traditional GAT hate, but how has it worked out for you?

Would you entertain the idea of a Thought seize over Misdirection to dodge card disadvantage, while still clearing the way for the bomb you need to drop?

Do you think this deck could cut down to at least 3 scrolls and one D-day to add other cards (I'm unsure as to what of course) into the deck?

Understanding that NO deck is perfect, what are some areas of concern that you have been able to identify as problematic or at the very least something to make note of?

I'll end this post by saying that I always applaud players for forming their own lists/decks/archtypes and then having the confidence to post them.  I will be participating in further discussion in this thread (however noobish I do come across) and watching it's evolution and helping it along as I do/have with TTS.

Haunted.

[Negator13]

I guess I will step up as the first to be flamed.

I see this deck as an extension of TTS.  IMO, limiting your bombs to Fastbond or Dday is asking for trouble, given that Shops are running Tinker - Caps and even I (TTS) am running Tinker/Cap, which I know will be an increasing trend (I've noticed that there are TSOath lists with three tyrants main to dodge this fact).

One of the reasons I feel that Eric omitted the scrolls in TTS was to illustrate the fact that Fastbond is a great route to victory, but not a cornerstone of the deck.  This leaves room for flexibility and innovation, which we have seen in the TTS thread.  Furthermore, it was only an attempt to generate card advantage, which was the only real issue that separates Ponder Long and TTS.  With the inclusion of four Gush, this was achieved.  The only aspect of the deck that needed to be looked at was the blatant lack luster performance of draw sevens, in specific A) the fact that they would fizzle more often than not and B) given the meta's speed, handing a fresh seven to you opponent is a bad thing...very bad.  Dooms Day has come along and I have fought hard to advocate it's inclusion since a poster (I'm very sorry to have forgotten who, please step up) mentioned it.

Fast forward to where we are now with TTS vs. your offering:  We have the use of Fast bond when it is in hand, or seems a reasonable tutor target, yet we don't NEED it or lean on it.  We have D-day as a target as well when the situation calls for it, so really we are no different than your offering, aside from the fact that we are not carved in stone and have more room to play with.  Most recently this includes the thought of bringing Bargain back, this allows both of us to circumvent Leylines.

My fear is, with a deck like this (essentially combo GAT, given the full  Gush/Bond engine), you are playing into the hands of GAT hate.  Spell snare is starting to get a glance, given Tyrant  inclusion amongst other decks that could use it.  I think this offering needs to look at reducing it's gush/bond dependancy and look towards other avenues that will ensure speed, streamlined plays, card advantage: while not getting nailed by traditional GAT hate.  The mana base with a higher land count is a great start I feel.

So let's start off with a few questions:

has the increased land count been any sort of a hinderance to you?  I see how it would bolster against traditional GAT hate, but how has it worked out for you?

Would you entertain the idea of a Thought seize over Misdirection to dodge card disadvantage, while still clearing the way for the bomb you need to drop?

Do you think this deck could cut down to at least 3 scrolls and one D-day to add other cards (I'm unsure as to what of course) into the deck?

Understanding that NO deck is perfect, what are some areas of concern that you have been able to identify as problematic or at the very least something to make note of?

I'll end this post by saying that I always applaud players for forming their own lists/decks/archtypes and then having the confidence to post them.  I will be participating in further discussion in this thread (however noobish I do come across) and watching it's evolution and helping it along as I do/have with TTS.

Haunted.

Haha I don't anticipate any flaming, just hopefully productive discussion.

The deck is built off a couple premises. One of these premises is that traditional Storm Combo just does not work in modern Type 1. The overwhelming presence of Duress effects coupled with the extreme speed of the format makes the traditional plan of Mana Acceleration -> Bomb -> more Mana Acceleration -> Tendrils a huge liability. Draw 7's are terrible right now, and so are heavy artifact accel manabases because if you run all the moxen/Ring/Crypt/Vault etc. you have to cut business cards to make room, which means you are automatically much less threat dense than the best decks in the format. Without all the mana acceleration you cannot support Yawgmoths Bargain or Mind's Desire, etc. Even if you do go out of your way to include more accel and top-heavy bombs, such as the addition of Mana Vault and Bargain to TTS, then you are just asking to be raped by Duress and by much faster decks like Flash.

The Merchant Scroll/Gushbond package neatly replaces the old artifact acceleration AND the traditional bombs such as Bargain, in one tight, cheap, versatile, BLUE package. You get to play Combo and Control, with the same cards. Before the addition of Doomsday, Fastbond was required to kick the Gush engine into gear, but with Doomsday you have an additional, just as viable route to victory with Gush. Add in the fact that Scroll searches up FoW, Recall, and Mystical, and you have (I believe) almost a strictly superior engine than that of the traditional storm decks.

While I like TTS, and I think Erik deserves a lot of credit for its innovation, I don't think it steps back far enough from the traditional storm combo mold. Twister is just not good in the deck, and you can barely even support Tinker anyway. Bargain is strictly inferior to GushBond. Necro is nice but doesn't play well with Scrolls, however if you really wanted you could easily add it to this deck.

I tried to make it clear in my original post (I guess I didn't do a good enough job) that this deck is NOT, AT ALL, reliant on the Gushbond engine. If Gushbond isn't an option, just win with Doomsday. It is that easy. You mention Spell Snare? Why would I care about Spell Snare? It counters... 6 cards in the deck, total? Merchant Scroll is by no means a necessary link in the chain here, its just an amazing support card that glues everything together.

Now for your specific questions:

I've found 14 land to be best for this deck, but it could easily be 13 land + Mox Emerald. You just really want to hit those first two land drops. You don't really need any off color acceleration except to cast Merchant Scroll, but that is hardly a necessity, while hitting those first 2 land drops definitely IS a necessity. If you don't have trouble hitting them with 13 lands, by all means, run 13.

I don't know if you noticed, but I do already run 1 Thoughtseize in addition to MisD. You can easily cut one for another of the other. Both have pros and cons, I like having 5 Duresses and 5 Pseudo-Forces. Strictly personal preference. Plus MisD is a blue card.

There's no reason to cut down the number of Scrolls or Doomsdays. You see originally I was playing the TTS build with 2 Scroll, 1 Necro, and 1 Dday. I wanted more Scrolls, because they are amazing. This made Necro worse, and Dday better. Since Necro is only really good turn 1, and not really that good even then, and DDay is better just about any time after, I just cut the Necro for another Dday. Running 2 DDay lets you really focus on it, both while playing and in deck construction. You wouldn't really want to run a maindeck R/D with only 1 Dday main, because you can't rely on seeing Dday often/early enough to justify the slot. But with 2, you can really focus on DDay as another Plan A, making R/D pretty much amazing because it ensures you can always get a lethal storm count off a Doomsday, plus its added insurance against Leyline.

Like I said, I haven't tested much against Shops, and I can definitely see them being a problem. The sideboard should definitely address this with Swamp, Bobs, Hurkyls, and EE's. GAT is probably only about 50/50, but that's when you just have to start relying on playskill more than deck construction. Playing the right 75 will only get you so far; the rest is what you do with those 75. I definitely wouldn't want to play against a deck like Tyrant Blue, with a shitload of cheap permission and card draw. You just have to play really tight, and sideboarded Bobs should go a long way (as above, they are meant for matchups involving heavy attrition wars).

Thanks for posting, and if I didn't answer anything satisfactorily please let me know.

[ErkBek]

Wow. Great post and list.

There's nothing I can add to your theory, it's all there and accurate. Some initial thoughts on your list though:

1) I think I'd play Pact of Negation over the Misdirection. Pact seems very useful for supplementing your protection package, but very useful as a tutorable piece of protection or for creating Doomsday stacks that win through Stifle, etc.

2) Timetwister is a useful card for doomsday stacks and a huge threat in itself. Even though Twisting isn't what you'd call an optimal gameplan, it puts opponents in a bad situation when they Duress you, Twister is such a powerful card to leave in hand. I'm not sure what I'd cut for the Twister, maybe a Scroll.

[coyoteuglly]

Wow. Great post and list.

It hurts my head to even contemplate playing.  Doomsday kills brain cells.


Verbal for the spam. -Zherbus

[ErkBek]

Wow. Great post and list.

It hurts my head to even contemplate playing.  Doomsday kills brain cells.

I'm telling ya, Doomsday is easier to play correctly than Gifts Ungiven, just less forgiving. Once you put together a few logical connections Doomsday piles don't look all that scary to build for different situations. Here are some things to think about for building unique Dday stacks:

A) Storm Generation: Basically you've got 3 routes to making storm
      1) Yawgmoth's Will - Obv
      2) Timetwister - 1 Card in hand after a Dday means you can draw your whole deck. 3 cards in hand + a Brainstorm results in at least an 80% chance of non-fizzles.  Also note, Pact is amazing in Dday piles using Twister.
      3) Chain of Vapor - Typically only useful if you've got at least 2 artifacts you'll be using for mana. Note that Chain also can be used to generate mana or extra cards in deck via sacing lands (this matters with Will and/or Timetwister)

B) Every Dday pile has to have a kill card, so either R/D or Tendrils must be in the 5 cards or in hand.

C) Mana generation
       1) 99% of piles will use Lotus in there somewhere. The only reason I can think of that you might not use it is Chalice @0.
       2) Typically you need either a Petal or a Dark Rit in the pile or in hand.

D) Draw you into pile

In conclusion, Doomsday piles are

Draw spell to break through the Dday pile
Storm Generator
Mana
Kill Condition

It's really not as complicated as it sounds since you can narrow it even further to:

1) Ancestral / Brainstorm
2) Lotus
3) Yawgmoth's Will / Timetwister
4) Tendrils / R&D

Somewhere in there you need a support card which is typically another piece of mana acceleration, occasionally though you don't even get to touch your 5th card.

[coyoteuglly]

Wow. Great post and list.

It hurts my head to even contemplate playing.  Doomsday kills brain cells.

I'm telling ya, Doomsday is easier to play correctly than Gifts Ungiven, just less forgiving. Once you put together a few logical connections Doomsday piles don't look all that scary to build for different situations. Here are some things to think about for building unique Dday stacks:

A) Storm Generation: Basically you've got 3 routes to making storm
      1) Yawgmoth's Will - Obv
      2) Timetwister - 1 Card in hand after a Dday means you can draw your whole deck. 3 cards in hand + a Brainstorm results in at least an 80% chance of non-fizzles.  Also note, Pact is amazing in Dday piles using Twister.
      3) Chain of Vapor - Typically only useful if you've got at least 2 artifacts you'll be using for mana. Note that Chain also can be used to generate mana or extra cards in deck via sacing lands (this matters with Will and/or Timetwister)

B) Every Dday pile has to have a kill card, so either R/D or Tendrils must be in the 5 cards or in hand.

C) Mana generation
       1) 99% of piles will use Lotus in there somewhere. The only reason I can think of that you might not use it is Chalice @0.
       2) Typically you need either a Petal or a Dark Rit in the pile or in hand.

D) Draw you into pile

In conclusion, Doomsday piles are

Draw spell to break through the Dday pile
Storm Generator
Mana
Kill Condition

It's really not as complicated as it sounds since you can narrow it even further to:

1) Ancestral / Brainstorm
2) Lotus
3) Yawgmoth's Will / Timetwister
4) Tendrils / R&D

Somewhere in there you need a support card which is typically another piece of mana acceleration, occasionally though you don't even get to touch your 5th card.

Nah-Na... Nah-Na-Nah-Na... Hey!-Hey!-Hey!  Gooodbye!


Verbal for the spam. -Zherbus

[Negator13]

Wow. Great post and list.

There's nothing I can add to your theory, it's all there and accurate. Some initial thoughts on your list though:

1) I think I'd play Pact of Negation over the Misdirection. Pact seems very useful for supplementing your protection package, but very useful as a tutorable piece of protection or for creating Doomsday stacks that win through Stifle, etc.

2) Timetwister is a useful card for doomsday stacks and a huge threat in itself. Even though Twisting isn't what you'd call an optimal gameplan, it puts opponents in a bad situation when they Duress you, Twister is such a powerful card to leave in hand. I'm not sure what I'd cut for the Twister, maybe a Scroll.

Thanks a lot man, in a lot of ways I feel like this post was mostly directed at you in particular because I really admired the way you innovated TTS and it's been the focus of my magic attention since you posted it here. I respect you very much as a fellow combo player, and greatly value your opinion. Just letting you know

1. I forgot to mention PoN. It definitely is an option, and quite a good one. I'm still not sure if it's worth dropping the defensive flexibility that MisD gives you, especially with regard to opposing Ancestrals and Flash counterwars, but it is definitely a much better offensive counter. I think the slot can easily go to any one of Thoughtseize, MisD, or PoN; only further testing will tell. Pact is definitely a very solid sideboard option, though. And as you mentioned it can be very useful in Doomsday stacks. To be honest, I haven't really done much thinking about specific Doomsday stacks themselves, I've pretty much been strictly sticking to the generic ones I posted above. It would be great if we could get some minds together and brainstorm up some better DDay kills using R/D that create a surplus of Storm copies.

2. I can definitely see Twister being added here, and I wouldn't call its inclusion wrong. I just really hate the card in practice. It's just too much of a hit or miss, it makes you feel like you're playing poker and not Magic. I don't think the deck is built enough around it to warrant its inclusion because if you Twist and fizzle, you are going to lose, and that just doesn't seem acceptable given the exceptionally high rate of failure it's inevitably going to have in a deck as mana-light and bomb-light as this. That said, it is a great last ditch measure and it can be argued that the games you lose after resolving Twister, you were going to lose otherwise. I guess my hope is that I can build the deck well enough so that you don't get into those lose/lose situations in the first place.

[Demonic Attorney]

Let's all try to make significant contributions to this thread instead of one-line posts.  Thanks.

[coyoteuglly]

Let's all try to make significant contributions to this thread instead of one-line posts.  Thanks.

Sorry.  I was asking a question in the form of a joke.  Becker picked up on it, and answered it very well.  You don't have to be so jumpy.

I hate asking being the one that has to ask the dumb questions.  Even though I am pretty sure I know the answer already.  But seeing as Becker is positing here, my knowledge of Storm combo pales in comparison to his awesomeness.  So it would be in the best interest of everyone if he could enlighten us.  So for the greater good of the thread:

As for the sideboard, yes, I agree they are totally meta dependent.  But since Research//Development is in the deck, what do you recommend being in the sideboard for targets?  Should we be running an ETW or another Tendrils in the sideboard?  Or just relay on the main deck Tendrils, since we have Doomsday and can make piles that will always give us access to it, no matter what zone it ends up in?


EDIT: I've received complaints about the seemingly empty one-liners. DA is not being jumpy, he is upholding the rules. Also, take up any issues with moderation via PM. We'll sum this all up in a verbal, but in short: no one-liners and no mod-sass. -Zherbus

[hauntedechos]

Is there any room to include the Imperial Seal?  Understanding that the deck is packed already, I was wondering if we couldn't find room to add the seal in for an even greater % to snag D-Day or Fastbond.  As an additional thought, how do we feel about Krosan Reclamation and/or Regrowth in the list.  I can see how they would be slow and cumbersome, however my worries lay in the form of what to do about countered win conditions.

I would like to say again that I am really pleased seeing yet another new school Storm Combo list rise.  I will be sleeving this offering up and play testing it as extensively as I have been able to give TTS.  What I am looking for are ways to storm while being as non-Will dependent as possible, with the Gush/Bond engine in full, it seems much more in line to what I was looking to complete in TTS.  The only issues I had with TTS is what to include to the main to achieve the above goal, however trying to do this without resorting to the full Gush/Bond engine.  I plan on testing this offering and reporting how the deck feels to me, a noob Storm player.

Ps.  Thanks alot negator, now I have to go and buy another D-Day...harumph!!
PPs, I hope this offering doesn't get called GreenDay based on it's initial namesake...perhalps we can find a real snazzy name for it?

Haunted.

[nineisnoone]

Sweet list.

PPs, I hope this offering doesn't get called GreenDay based on it's initial namesake...perhalps we can find a real snazzy name for it?

Gush + Doomsday... Flood?

Wow. Great post and list.

There's nothing I can add to your theory, it's all there and accurate. Some initial thoughts on your list though:

1) I think I'd play Pact of Negation over the Misdirection. Pact seems very useful for supplementing your protection package, but very useful as a tutorable piece of protection or for creating Doomsday stacks that win through Stifle, etc.

2) Timetwister is a useful card for doomsday stacks and a huge threat in itself. Even though Twisting isn't what you'd call an optimal gameplan, it puts opponents in a bad situation when they Duress you, Twister is such a powerful card to leave in hand. I'm not sure what I'd cut for the Twister, maybe a Scroll.

Thanks a lot man, in a lot of ways I feel like this post was mostly directed at you in particular because I really admired the way you innovated TTS and it's been the focus of my magic attention since you posted it here. I respect you very much as a fellow combo player, and greatly value your opinion. Just letting you know

1. I forgot to mention PoN. It definitely is an option, and quite a good one. I'm still not sure if it's worth dropping the defensive flexibility that MisD gives you, especially with regard to opposing Ancestrals and Flash counterwars, but it is definitely a much better offensive counter. I think the slot can easily go to any one of Thoughtseize, MisD, or PoN; only further testing will tell. Pact is definitely a very solid sideboard option, though. And as you mentioned it can be very useful in Doomsday stacks. To be honest, I haven't really done much thinking about specific Doomsday stacks themselves, I've pretty much been strictly sticking to the generic ones I posted above. It would be great if we could get some minds together and brainstorm up some better DDay kills using R/D that create a surplus of Storm copies.

2. I can definitely see Twister being added here, and I wouldn't call its inclusion wrong. I just really hate the card in practice. It's just too much of a hit or miss, it makes you feel like you're playing poker and not Magic. I don't think the deck is built enough around it to warrant its inclusion because if you Twist and fizzle, you are going to lose, and that just doesn't seem acceptable given the exceptionally high rate of failure it's inevitably going to have in a deck as mana-light and bomb-light as this. That said, it is a great last ditch measure and it can be argued that the games you lose after resolving Twister, you were going to lose otherwise. I guess my hope is that I can build the deck well enough so that you don't get into those lose/lose situations in the first place.

I think PoN is a sideboard options. When you are control, you won't be able to PoN because you can't win a instant speed.  It does play in the aggro option, but if you're aggro then you likely won't be having to use as much of your protection on the defensive and gaining one card I don't feel makes up for the win-or-dieness to it. Plus winning the aggro match up, often requires countering a pro-active spell by the opponent, which PoN does not help with.  Additionally more specific answers might be better. Though if there is a stack that can draw the win AND draw you a PoN then it's definitely a maindeck include.... Something to smash our heads against.

Twister is also useful for stacks, though I don't see why you would run it over a 3rd DDay. DDay wins the game whereas Twister has the *whiff* chance. It only requires one colored mana I guess, but other than that, I don't see it being better than DDay number 3.

[ErkBek]

Twister is also useful for stacks, though I don't see why you would run it over a 3rd DDay. DDay wins the game whereas Twister has the *whiff* chance. It only requires one colored mana I guess, but other than that, I don't see it being better than DDay number 3.

No question that I'm playing Twister in my list. Twister is very useful for enabling Doomsday stacks much like R&D, while not being terrible to draw.

[nineisnoone]

Twister is also useful for stacks, though I don't see why you would run it over a 3rd DDay. DDay wins the game whereas Twister has the *whiff* chance. It only requires one colored mana I guess, but other than that, I don't see it being better than DDay number 3.

No question that I'm playing Twister in my list. Twister is very useful for enabling Doomsday stacks much like R&D, while not being terrible to draw.

Re-Thinking Twister

I think this works....

With 1 Card + Ponder (DDay in yard) + 2UU post-Dday and need to swap a Ritual for an LED (or stick it in somehow)

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Research and Development
Y-Will

Dday,
Ponder,
Twister (DDay, Ponder, Lotus, LED, RD, Y-Will, Random in hand),
Lotus for BBB,
LED,
Y-Will,
Crack LED in response UUU (Twister, DDay, Ponder, Lotus, LED, Y-Will, RD, Random in yard),
Lotus GGGUUU
LED BBBGGGUUU
Research BBBGGUU (3 cards, one of which is Tendrils)
Ponder BBBGGU
Tendrils

U and a Brainstorm and 1 card (DDay in yard)

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
LED
Tendrils
Y-Will

Dday,
Brainstorm into Twister and Lotus,
Lotus for UUU, (Dday, Brainstorm, Lotus in yard and LED, Tendrils, Y-Will, Random in library)
Twister (DDay, Brainstorm, Lotus, LED, Tendrils, Y-Will, Random in hand),
Lotus for BBB,
LED,
Y-Will,
Crack LED in response BBB (Twister, DDay, Brainstorm, Lotus, LED, Tendrils, Random in yard),
Lotus BBBBBB
LED BBBBBBBBB
Tendrils

On crap, I included Y-Will in my storm, but not the stack originally... lol

You can also add Research to add more storm.

Gush was freaking hard, but came up with this....

Gush no cards in hand Post Dday and UU

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Ancestral
Research

Yes, only 4 cards.

Dday,
Gush (Twister, Lotus, Island, Island in hand (4), Gush DDay in yard (2) Ancestral, Research in Library (2))
Lotus,
Twister (Lotus, Island, Island, Gush, DDay, Ancestral, Research)
Lotus GGG
Tap for U
Research (Manamorphse, Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils in the library GG left floating)
Tap for U
Ancestral
Manamorphse for GG-BB and draw Tendrils
Ritual
Ritual
Tendrils

[nineisnoone]

Crazy Doomsday stacks.....

looking at that imo only the Brainstorm with 1 card is relevant. Since Gush is easier without using twister as is Ponder. and when you're twisting you open up the "opponent draw into a FoW" so I don't see why you'd go for it other easier options. I wasn't able to figure out Twister with PoN win. Maybe you see one for Brainstorm with 1 card?

[ErkBek]

I played a few games with this deck tonight, I really liked it. Ponder played awkwardly in the deck since it's so redundant. I'm not sure if it belongs as a 4-of or not. I'll add more on some card choices next time I post, but for now some Dday piles.

------Untap win pile-------

I figured out a Doomsday kill that allows you to pass the turn and win. It requires you to have 6 life if you only have Tropical island and Underground Sea. If you have more than 2 lands in play less life is needed. This also can be win through Chalice @ 0 if by random chance that were to come up. Here's the stack

Gush
Fastbond
Gush
Yawgmoth's Will
R&D (Tendrils, Lotus, XXXX, XXXX)

Here's how it plays out:

Untap and draw Gush.

Float UB and cast Gush (s=1, UB)
Play Tropical and tap it for G
Cast Fastbond (s=2, UB)
Play and Tap Usea (UBB)*
Cast Gush (s=3, UBB)
Play and tap Underground and Trop (UG UBB)**
Cast Development targeting Tendrils, Lotus, Duress, Duress (s=4 UBB)
Cast Yawgmoth's Will (s=5)
Play and tap lands (UB)**
Cast Gush (s=6, UB)
Play and tap lands (UUBB)**
Gush (s=7, UUBB)
Cast Duress (s=8, UUB)
Cast Duress (s=9, UU)
Cast Black Lotus and break it for BBB (s=10, UUBBB)
Cast Tendrils for for 22 damage

Lotus can be replaced with Dark Rit, it doens't really matter. Also, if you have a Mox Jet the Underground can be an Island.

-------Go infiinite pile---------

This one is about the coolest thing ever though the odds of it being used seem slim. You'll notice it can be modified for cards allowing you to break into the pile that turn, but for simplicity I'll just say this. If you break into the pile that turn you'll need the draw spell and only one other card in hand post Dday. If you're passing the turn and untapping you'll need 2 cards in hand post Dday (you need 8 cards total for this to function and UB to start). Here's the kill:

(you can fit in a Pact if you have any of the cards in hand when casting Dday)

Dday in GY
2 cards in hand

Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Twister
Tendrils

Untap cast Ancestral
Lotus (UUU)
Ritual (UUU BBB)
Twister (UU B)

Draw every card except Twister which is in the GY
Ritual (UU BBB)
Lotus (UU BBB BBB)
Cast Doomsday putting Twister, Lotus, and Ritual into the deck (yes you can fail to find if only 3 cards are available) (UU BBB)
Cast Ancestral (U BBB)
Lotus (U BBB BBB)
Ritual (U BBB BBB BB)
Tendrils (U BBB B)

Timetwister (B)
Lotus (UUU B)
Ritual (UUU BBB)
Dday (UUU)
Ancestral (UU)
Lotus (UU BBB)
Ritual (UU BBB BB)
Twister (U BBB)

Repeat until dead opponent. Each iteration nets 3 mana, meaning you can tendrils ever other time. And yes I know you're giving your opponent a new 7 every time you play Twister, which is why I suggest a Pact to protect the whole thing.

------

The pass the turn kill seems very useful. It enables turn 1 Doomsdays (if trop in hand or played off artifact mana) into a turn 2 kill even if you lack a draw spell to combo with the Dday. It also allows you to just immediately cast Dday after drawing it in almost any situation given you've got the mana.

Feel free to PM me Doomsday situations that you can't figure out but think you can win from. I love the puzzle.

[hauntedechos]

If Ponder is playing awkwardly, then could we cut one for Imperial?  I think that if we are going to continue to try and streamline and speed up the fundamental turn of this deck, then we need to have many of the  tutors as enablers.

Thanks for the untap win pile Eric, I have been in positions where I was just shy of being able to "win now", while also being unable to think about how I would construct a pile I could untap into, while avoiding a "slow play" call on me lol.

I think that we should consolidate all the D-day piles from both tts, this deck and dday deck itself to construct a sort of master list that we could have with us when playing.  It would be an effort to have a pile ready to match every circumstance that you wold find yourself in.  I know I'm already compiling a list of my own.

Haunted.

[ErkBek]

I know I'm already compiling a list of my own.

Since you're already on that, you want to just post it when your done?

[hauntedechos]

Yeah, I'd definitely like the chance to contribute something to this deck, so I will post piles and how they play as I amass them.  Eric, the last offering would have a place in multi player, where Storm Combo never really had a quick way of dealing with more than one player at a time, I know that I am going to try it out.

Haunted.


Ok so as a starting point, I've collected a stack of dday piles.  The problem is, they are from the deck DDAY and thusly include minds desire, which we currently do not, as well as Lions Eye Diamond, which we could include if it feels like a fit.  Seeing as we are saying that we are focusing on either Fast bond or Dday as the win condition, I thought it might be something to consider, even though we are running the Rituals.  I will be adding lists as I find them and encourage anyone to PM me lists so I can add them to this post, or post them on your own.
Ok on to the starting lists:


-----------------------Eric Becker piles---------------------------------------Untap win pile-------



After thinking about Andy's hand and reading the last few posts I figured out the kill we've all been waiting for, the pass the turn kill.

There is no additional requirements beyond having UB or UG for mana. It does a guaranteed 18 damage and up to 20 if you're willing to gamble just a little and your mana is 2 islands (90% of the time it's a kill). If your mana is land + mox it deals 20 damage 100% of the time. Here's the stack.

Ancestral
Lotus
R/D
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils

Ancestral (U)
Lotus for GGG
Will (G)
Lotus for UUU
R/D (UU) -> shuffle in Lotus, Petal, Gush, Gush
Ancestral (U) (storm = 6)
Gush (storm = 7)
Lotus for BBB (storm = 8) (UBBB)
Petal (storm = 9)
Tendrils (storm = 10)

If you don't hit a Gush on R/D that means you've got Lotus, Petal, and Tendrils which is good enough for 18.

If you mana looks like Mox + Land you can follow the same stack except shuffle in Lotus and Chain of Vapor. This way you'll Ancestral into this line of play:

Lotus for BBB (UBBB) (storm =7)
Chain the mox (BBB) (storm =8)
Mox and tap it (1BBB) (storm = 9)
Tendrils for 20

I figured out a Doomsday kill that allows you to pass the turn and win. It requires you to have 6 life if you only have Tropical island and Underground Sea. If you have more than 2 lands in play less life is needed. This also can be win through Chalice @ 0 if by random chance that were to come up. Here's the stack

Gush
Fastbond
Gush
Yawgmoth's Will
R&D (Tendrils, Lotus, XXXX, XXXX)

Here's how it plays out:

Untap and draw Gush.

Float UB and cast Gush (s=1, UB)
Play Tropical and tap it for G
Cast Fastbond (s=2, UB)
Play and Tap Usea (UBB)*
Cast Gush (s=3, UBB)
Play and tap Underground and Trop (UG UBB)**
Cast Development targeting Tendrils, Lotus, Duress, Duress (s=4 UBB)
Cast Yawgmoth's Will (s=5)
Play and tap lands (UB)**
Cast Gush (s=6, UB)
Play and tap lands (UUBB)**
Gush (s=7, UUBB)
Cast Duress (s=8, UUB)
Cast Duress (s=9, UU)
Cast Black Lotus and break it for BBB (s=10, UUBBB)
Cast Tendrils for for 22 damage

Lotus can be replaced with Dark Rit, it doens't really matter. Also, if you have a Mox Jet the
Underground can be an Island.

-------Go infiinite pile---------

This one is about the coolest thing ever though the odds of it being used seem slim. You'll
notice it can be modified for cards allowing you to break into the pile that turn, but for
simplicity I'll just say this. If you break into the pile that turn you'll need the draw spell
and only one other card in hand post Dday. If you're passing the turn and untapping you'll need
2 cards in hand post Dday (you need 8 cards total for this to function and UB to start). Here's
the kill:

(you can fit in a Pact if you have any of the cards in hand when casting Dday)

Dday in GY
2 cards in hand

Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Twister
Tendrils

Untap cast Ancestral
Lotus (UUU)
Ritual (UUU BBB)
Twister (UU B)

Draw every card except Twister which is in the GY
Ritual (UU BBB)
Lotus (UU BBB BBB)
Cast Doomsday putting Twister, Lotus, and Ritual into the deck (yes you can fail to find if
only 3 cards are available) (UU BBB)
Cast Ancestral (U BBB)
Lotus (U BBB BBB)
Ritual (U BBB BBB BB)
Tendrils (U BBB B)

Timetwister (B)
Lotus (UUU B)
Ritual (UUU BBB)
Dday (UUU)
Ancestral (UU)
Lotus (UU BBB)
Ritual (UU BBB BB)
Twister (U BBB)

Repeat until dead opponent. Each iteration nets 3 mana, meaning you can tendrils ever other time.
 And yes I know you're giving your opponent a new 7 every time you play Twister, which is why I
suggest a Pact to protect the whole thing.

---------Menendian DDay deck piles, note that some of these will have to be modified---------

The only other stack I put in primer article was the "Gush" stack. It's the stack that you
construct when you have Gush in hand:

1) Ancestral
2) Black Lotus/LED
3) Lion's Eye Diamond/ Black Lotus
4) Yawgmoth's Will
5) and Tendrils of Agony

You Gush into Ancestral and Black Lotus (can be Lion's Eye Diamond). Then you Ancestral into the
remaining three cards and play them all and Yawgmoth's Will and then play them all again and win.

It looks like this:

1) Gush (Storm count 1) drawing Ancestral and LED. If you are not tapped out, tap your lands first. If you have not played a land, play one and tap it.
2) Play Lion's Eye Diamond and Ancestral Recall breaking LED in response for BBB (storm count 3)
drawing Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will and Tendrils of Agony
3) Play Black Lotus and sacrifice it for UUU. (Storm count 4)
4) If you have enough mana because you had lands untapped, play Tendrils first, otherwise you need
to have played one other spell and then Yawgmoth's Will. If you can't play Tendrils at this point,
 you will need one more storm in order to get 20 damage. Playing a Mox would do it. But basically,
we are assuming that you have one free mana to play Tendrils. The Tendrils is for 10 damage. Then
you play Yawgmoth's Will. Storm count six.
5) replay LED and Lotus and sacrifice them: UUUBBBBBB floating.
6) Ancestral your opponent if you need storm
7) play Tendrils for a total of 30 or so damage this turn.


if you have Ancestral Recall in hand, then setting up a
Gush pile that is a variant of the above hand is perfectly legitimate. It might look like this:

1) Black Lotus
2) Lion's Eye Diamond
3) Gush
4) Yawgmoth's Will
5) Tendrils of Agony

It's the same basic principle. You can make it work easily with one additional storm. If you have
no other storm, then you can't use the Gush to replay a land. Here's how it might work:

1) play Ancestral Recall drawing Lotus, LED, and Gush
2) Play LED, Lotus, and Gush and respond by sacrificing the Lion's Eye Diamond NOW. If you don't,
this thing won't work. BBB floating. Storm Count is four.
3) Sacrifice Lotus and play Yawg Will. Storm Count 5.
4) replay Lotus and Led and sacrifice them for a total of BBB BBB UUU floating. Storm Count 7.
5) Ancestral your opponent. BBBBBBUU floating. Storm count 8.
6) replay Doomsday. Storm count 9.
7) Tendrils for 20.


Or, you could set up this pile if you want to go for the Tendrils kill:

1) Ancestral,
2) LED,
3) Lotus
4) Yawg Will,
5) Tendrils

1: Draw Ancestral
2: Draw LED on the following turn
3: play LED
4: Play Ancestral response break LED for BBB
Discard Beacon
5: Play Lotus and break it for BBB. BBBBBB floating
6: tap your other land. BBBBBBB floating
7: play tendrils for 8 damage
8: play Yawg Will
9: replay LED and Lotus and break them for BBBBBB - now you have six mana
floating and play Tendrils again for 16 more damage for a total of 24 life this turn.

Chalice @ 0 Ideally, your plan is to simply use one of
your two Rebuilds. But it isn't a lost cause. There are several scenarios in which you can just
go for it.

If you are holding Ancestral Recall, make the following stack:

1) Ritual,
2) Ritual,
3) Chromatic Sphere,
4) Yawg Will,
5) Tendrils of Agony

You play Ancestral and then: Ritual, Ritual, Sphere, breaking it to draw the Will. Play the will
and replay the Rituals and the Sphere. Use the Sphere to draw the Tendrils and win.


The Chalice @ 1 Twister Plan
The Twister plan is the hardest to properly execute. This plan comes into play when you need to win with Tendrils but you don't have enough storm to do it.

Timetwister
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

This is just one sample of a potential Twister hand. The trick will be to get three more storm
while you Twister, LED, Lotus, Will, Led, Lotus, Tendrils. This Twister cannot be done unless you
have at least two other cards in hand when you play the Twister because you will want to be sure
that you draw exactly seven cards. It's easy to mess this up because Doomsday will be in your
graveyard (which you can use to up your storm) and because Timetwister itself goes to the graveyard.
If you are short of cards you will die upon Twister resolution from not having enough cards in
library.



_____________________________ ____Ambivilant Duck DDay Primer Piles, again modification needed______


Along with the decklist, Doomsday requires a list of Doomsday piles.  The 'main' piles will
carry you through pretty much everything you'll encounter, though you may occasionally need to
invent one on the spot.  This is rare, and I've never had to do anything more than a simple
substitution at a tourney.

After resolving Dday, you can:

Pass the turn (need UB open)
Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Mind's Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils + defense of some sort

Cast Gush (nothing else needed)
Lotus
Ancestral
Lotus Petal
Yawgmoth's Will
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Lotus for UUU, Ancestral, Petal for B, Will, Lotus for UUU, Petal for G, Research for Lotus,
Petal, Tendrils, Ancestral, Lotus for BBB, Petal for B, Tendrils

Cast Gush with Leyline in play (nothing else needed)
Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral
Lotus Petal (for G)
Brainstorm
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Cast Brainstorm (nothing else needed)
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Yawgmoth's Will
Mind' s Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils, protection



---------------------------------------------Piles from this thread and taken from TTS---------------------------------------------------------------


With Gush (nothing else needed) or with Merchant Scroll (mana needed to cast Scroll)

Black Lotus
Ancestral
Petal
Will
R/D

Gush, Lotus, pop for Blue, Recall floating UU, Petal, Will, Petal, Lotus, pop for GUUU, Research shuffling in Lotus, Petal, Tendrils. Recall again, play Lotus, Petal, Tendrils for a lot.

With Ponder (UU needed post-DDay)

Recall
Lotus
Ritual
Will
Tendrils (There's probably a better, higher storm count somewhere using R/D)

With Brainstorm (2 extra cards in hand needed)

Lotus
Ritual
Will
Tendrils
Random (Again, there's probably a better kill with R/D)

Against Leyline of the Void: (Need Gush or Scroll for Gush, with mana to cast it obviously)

Lotus
Ancestral
Petal
R/D
Brainstorm

Lotus for UUU, Recall, Petal, R/D floating U, shuffling in Petal, Lotus, Tendrils. Brainstorm into them, put back the lands, cast Petal, Lotus, Tendrils.

--------------------------------------------------------nines dday piles----------------------------------------------------------------

Re-Thinking Twister

I think this works....

With 1 Card + Ponder (DDay in yard) + 2UU post-Dday and need to swap a Ritual for an LED (or stick it in somehow)

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Lion's Eye Diamond
Research and Development
Y-Will

Dday,
Ponder,
Twister (DDay, Ponder, Lotus, LED, RD, Y-Will, Random in hand),
Lotus for BBB,
LED,
Y-Will,
Crack LED in response UUU (Twister, DDay, Ponder, Lotus, LED, Y-Will, RD, Random in yard),
Lotus GGGUUU
LED BBBGGGUUU
Research BBBGGUU (3 cards, one of which is Tendrils)
Ponder BBBGGU
Tendrils

U and a Brainstorm and 1 card (DDay in yard)

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
LED
Tendrils
Y-Will

Dday,
Brainstorm into Twister and Lotus,
Lotus for UUU, (Dday, Brainstorm, Lotus in yard and LED, Tendrils, Y-Will, Random in library)
Twister (DDay, Brainstorm, Lotus, LED, Tendrils, Y-Will, Random in hand),
Lotus for BBB,
LED,
Y-Will,
Crack LED in response BBB (Twister, DDay, Brainstorm, Lotus, LED, Tendrils, Random in yard),
Lotus BBBBBB
LED BBBBBBBBB
Tendrils

On crap, I included Y-Will in my storm, but not the stack originally... lol

You can also add Research to add more storm.

Gush was freaking hard, but came up with this....

Gush no cards in hand Post Dday and UU

Stack
Timetwister
Black Lotus
Ancestral
Research

Yes, only 4 cards.

Dday,
Gush (Twister, Lotus, Island, Island in hand (4), Gush DDay in yard (2) Ancestral, Research in Library (2))
Lotus,
Twister (Lotus, Island, Island, Gush, DDay, Ancestral, Research)
Lotus GGG
Tap for U
Research (Manamorphse, Ritual, Ritual, Tendrils in the library GG left floating)
Tap for U
Ancestral
Manamorphse for GG-BB and draw Tendrils
Ritual
Ritual
Tendrils

[nineisnoone]

Has Volcanic Island/Empty the Warrens been tried out in this deck?  It requires a smaller storm count to be effective than Tendrils and for Doomsday we can use Research to shuffle in Tendrils.

[diopter]

I have been testing this deck and I am not really feeling the Scroll, for the following reasons:

- There are not enough ways to find Fastbond. Without Fastbond on the table Scroll is clunky.
- The Scroll/Gush/Fastbond engine too often fizzles. Too often you can't find Will, Tendrils or a castable tutor for either of them. Initially I thought this wouldn't be a problem because DDay could be also played in mid-chain - however actually finding the mana for DDay is hard because the mid-chain Scrolls tie up a lot of the mana that GushBond accumulates, and you don't run enough Rituals to lucksack into one *and* Doomsday consistently.

I am thinking of running Necro and some Cabal Rituals in place of the Scrolls. I still believe Necropotence is awesome. Time and testing will determine which one of us is correct.

[hauntedechos]

@Diopter:  I thank you for your post, even though I am not the deck creator.  I thank you for a few reasons.

1) I knew that eliminating Necro would be cutting a stand alone card that produces a silly amount of card advantage, which can enable you to find the card you need to find.
2) putting all of your eggs into a plan A) or a plan B) would not provide solid results, diversity is key in these newschool storm decks.  This is in part to why Ponder Long had a streaky feel, although for different reasons.
3)The inclusion of 1-2 scrolls in TTS was the right number to give the Fastbond route credibility as a viable option within TTS, while not detracting too much from it's flexability.

Never the less, I will be giving this list the attention that I am still giving TTS.

Haunted.

[ErkBek]

I have been testing this deck and I am not really feeling the Scroll, for the following reasons:

- There are not enough ways to find Fastbond. Without Fastbond on the table Scroll is clunky.
- The Scroll/Gush/Fastbond engine too often fizzles. Too often you can't find Will, Tendrils or a castable tutor for either of them. Initially I thought this wouldn't be a problem because DDay could be also played in mid-chain - however actually finding the mana for DDay is hard because the mid-chain Scrolls tie up a lot of the mana that GushBond accumulates, and you don't run enough Rituals to lucksack into one *and* Doomsday consistently.

I am thinking of running Necro and some Cabal Rituals in place of the Scrolls. I still believe Necropotence is awesome. Time and testing will determine which one of us is correct.

That is the exact opposite of how the deck has played for me.

Also, I think we should call the deck Next Level Doomsday.

[coyoteuglly]

I have been testing this deck and I am not really feeling the Scroll, for the following reasons:

- There are not enough ways to find Fastbond. Without Fastbond on the table Scroll is clunky.
- The Scroll/Gush/Fastbond engine too often fizzles. Too often you can't find Will, Tendrils or a castable tutor for either of them. Initially I thought this wouldn't be a problem because DDay could be also played in mid-chain - however actually finding the mana for DDay is hard because the mid-chain Scrolls tie up a lot of the mana that GushBond accumulates, and you don't run enough Rituals to lucksack into one *and* Doomsday consistently.

I am thinking of running Necro and some Cabal Rituals in place of the Scrolls. I still believe Necropotence is awesome. Time and testing will determine which one of us is correct.

That is the exact opposite of how the deck has played for me.

Also, I think we should call the deck Next Level Doomsday.

Bleh, I am so sick of hearing the "Next Level" moniker slapped on every deck after Extended this year.

I personally vote for Crunch Berries.  Because Doomsday stacks can make you feel like someone is crunching on your berries.  Also because Doomsday was printed in a time where busted combo decks were named after breakfast cereals.

Also Kobe, which matchups do you try to assume more of a control or aggressive position in?

[hauntedechos]

@Kobefan:  I would agree to next level D-Day as long as you promise we can shorten it to NLD for conversations sake.

Haunted.

[ErkBek]

Bleh, I am so sick of hearing the "Next Level" moniker slapped on every deck after Extended this year.

I personally vote for Crunch Berries.  Because Doomsday stacks can make you feel like someone is crunching on your berries.  Also because Doomsday was printed in a time where busted combo decks were named after breakfast cereals.

Also Kobe, which matchups do you try to assume more of a control or aggressive position in?

I thought the various levels of blue thing was kinda funny. Friends and I worked with NLB all season and when I made what turned out to be a top tier deck we called it "Top Level Blue" only for LSV and Cheon to rename it "Previous Level Blue." I thought the prefix of Next Level would fit this deck well since it is a completely new evolution of Doomsday, it's the Next Level of Doomsday.

Flash and Storm mirrors are the matchups that you generally play control in. If you're on the play against Shops you can somewhat play control too. Generally, you can open with Duress to take out a lock piece and figure out which other one needs countering. Also, any hand that's got Duress + a fast Ancestral allows you to play control all day.

Ponder really is very underwhelming in this deck. I've cut to 3 to make room for my Timetwister. Also, 3 Dark Rituals have been perfect for me. I rarely ever have 2 in hand, but they seem to be there when I need them. I've dropped the 4th Ritual for a Time Walk which has been great.

@Kobefan:  I would agree to next level D-Day as long as you promise we can shorten it to NLD for conversations sake.

obv. NLD. Negator what do you think?

[Negator13]

NLD works, has my seal of approval.

Speaking of Duress vs. Shops, what is your opinion of them in that matchup? How many do we want to keep in? Duresses have always been my knee-jerk first card to take out vs. Shops in sideboarding, but maybe that is incorrect, especially on the play. Plus now we have Thoughtseize which hits Welders. Thoughts? I guess it mostly depends on what and how many cards you plan on sideboarding against Shops in the first place.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ negator,
If there is one matchup I play more than any other, its vs stax. I've definitely been asking myself that same question in the stax match up. Right now I am of the opinion that duress effects should be replaced by removal/ bounce. In most stax match ups I'm trying to beat a combination of the following cards: sphere effect, wire, chalice, and wasteland. Duress looses a lot of its power late game, forcing you to crack fetch for u-sea and becoming a wasteland target early. Duress also can't be played during your upkeep to avoid wire. With NLD's ability to doomsday, gush and win in a single turn I've been having a lot of success with a couple of  ingot chewers (for chalice and thorn obv.) and hurkyl's recalls.

If you plan on seeing a lot of stax, I'd definitely urge you to test splashing red

[Will]

I recently switched up from TTS and began testing this deck.  One problem I have ran into is that two of the situational piles are a little weak.  They are the Untap and Win pile which is very restrictive needing life to spare, A Trop and a USea.  The other weak pile is the Brainstorm pile which is a little undwerwhelming.  1 good thing I have found for the deck is Pact of Negation being amazing.  Whenever I had pact I won.  Kinda like Flash I would Scroll for Pact and then go off.  I'm also trying Snuff out in the board for Mage/ Annoying Cards like Teeg.