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Author Topic: Shadowmoor predictions - vroman  (Read 7589 times)
vroman
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« on: April 19, 2008, 12:33:28 am »

shadowmoor's slogan is clearly "Very Efficient 3-drop Creatures". Sadly thats not a great marketing tactic to the vintage community.

High confidence will be played:

1. Faerie Macabre
free, uncounterable, effective yard hate. and has plan B as not-completely-terrible flyer. Imo trumps extirpate and tormod. Best card of the set. yardhate now comes down to leyline vs this guy. also an option for ichorid, since its black creature.

2. Manamorphose
the most efficient mana-filter cantrip yet. perhaps makes red-ritual combo viable.

3. Cursecatcher
take every argument ever made for playing spiketail hatchling, and now it costs half as much. best blue 1drop ever?

4. Oona Queen of the Fae
worldgorger's main weakness is certainly not its win conditon, but this one is clearly the nut-high for that application.

Plausibly playable:
Scarscale ritual - Its hard to imagine fish needing additional draw now that Ponder exists, but this is not too shabby
Vexing shusher - its xantid swarm w muscle for RG aggro
Dusk urchins - probably too slow on the card drawing payoff to be worth playing what is otherwise unexciting attacker
Sygg river cutthroat - possibly worth it in format where most decks deal 5+damage to themselves in the course of a game.
Sootstoke kindler - might find a place in Flash kills
Beseech the queen - so you are poor and want to play grim-long in zero proxy tourney? this is for you.
Tattermunge maniac - another savanah lion clone
Grim poppet - is it worth playing 1 more for trike who gets bigger? not going to break any archetypes, but might make the cut somewhere
Dream recovery - very conditional draw spell, but possibly broken vs heavy Bazaar environment? or as draw engine for hymn.dec?

others brought to my attention
guttural response - though for R you can get superior redblast, for G this could be powerful sb material for GAT mirror
heap doll - another efficient creature based yard hate tool. dulled in comparison to simultaneous release of faerie macabre, but this more likely to get in some damage. in conjuction w curse catcher, maybe draw-ninja fish will see a revival
furystoke giant - yet another likely flash-kill component
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 02:58:55 pm by vroman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 01:14:48 am »

Dream recovery - very conditional draw spell, but possibly broken vs heavy Bazaar environment? or as draw engine for hymn.dec?

Slight correction, card name is "Dream Salvage.
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2008, 02:11:29 am »

Vroman, you are missing this one:

Guttural Response  G or R
Instant   Uncommon
Counter target blue instant spell.

Imo, it's an excelent sideboard card for gush decks not running red mainboard. It gives you an excellent 1st turn answer to fight Flash, and it also counters the most played blue cards in Vintage: Ancestral, Brainstorm, FoW, Misdirection, Gush, Pact, TFK, AK's, etc.. etc...

To me, Guttural Response is a top Vintage card that will see lot of game (in sideboards obviously).

Cheers!

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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2008, 08:55:37 am »

Heap Doll {1}
Artifact Creature - Scarecrow   Uncommon
Sacrifice Heap Doll: Remove target card in a graveyard from the game.
"I know one night it won't come back. Then I'll know it's truly done its job." - Breanna, cobblesmith
Illus. John Avon   #253/301   
1/1

This seems like a pretty potent 1 drop for any colour of fish deck. It's castable off wastelands, goes in any colour of deck, and can really hose dredge by removing bridges and anything else.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2008, 09:03:24 am »

Vroman!  Are you trying to steal my thunder?! You are supposed to wait until my review comes up until you give your predictions :p
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2008, 09:33:30 am »

Furystoke Giant 
3RR
Creature - Giant Warrior 
3/3 
When Furystoke Giant comes into play, other creatures you control gain "T: This creature deals 2 damage to target creature or player" until end of turn.
Persist (When this creature is put into a graveyard from play, if it had no -1/-1 counters on it, return it to play under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it.) 

This can be used with Kiki-Jiki / Karmic Guide to produce another instant speed Flash kill. The combo will still be 5 cards, with the slight advantage that the Giant can be sided out in matchups where instant-speed killing is deemed unnecessary.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 03:06:37 pm by diopter » Logged
vroman
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2008, 02:55:18 pm »

re: guttural response
I was looking more at the "R" side of this spell and finding it failing in comparison to redblast. the G side making it playable in GAT wo splashing red is noteworthy. however only hitting instants is somewhat narrow, and the whole pt of playing like 3-4 misdirections now is that keeping mana open is increasingly less attractive option. it seems holding even 1 mana back for countermagic is too much these days.

Heap doll
I would have had this on my list, except its so severely outclassed by faerie macabre, I didnt think it was worth mentioning. wotc must be really tired of graveyard based strategies.

furystoke giant
good call. the flash kill options keep getting more diverse

@smennen
I still look forward to your more scholarly presentation
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2008, 06:50:58 pm »

Quote
Faerie Macabre 1BB
Creature - Faerie Rogue
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.
2/2

Can someone explain to me how this is good? I'm assuming this has to make it into play first before you can use its ability of discarding a second Faerie to remove graveyard cards. If you can use the ability in hand, how can that be? Is there some sort of precedent for this in the rules? Apart from cycling, I can't think of any cards where you pay the cost preceding the colon to generate the effect after the colon when the card is still in hand.

In terms of the set itself, while some cards have vintage potential and deserve at least a second look, I think there is a very real possibility that no card will ultimately be played from this set in competitive T1. The only exception would be Oona, but only if Flash goes away and WGD comes back.
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2008, 07:20:29 pm »

yes you discard it from your hand. the closest thing I can find is the "channel" creatures from saviors.

ghost-lit stalker
5BB, Discard Ghost-Lit Stalker: Target player discards four cards. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2008, 07:24:10 pm »

Quote
Faerie Macabre 1BB
Creature - Faerie Rogue
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.
2/2

Can someone explain to me how this is good? I'm assuming this has to make it into play first before you can use its ability of discarding a second Faerie to remove graveyard cards. If you can use the ability in hand, how can that be? Is there some sort of precedent for this in the rules? Apart from cycling, I can't think of any cards where you pay the cost preceding the colon to generate the effect after the colon when the card is still in hand.

In terms of the set itself, while some cards have vintage potential and deserve at least a second look, I think there is a very real possibility that no card will ultimately be played from this set in competitive T1. The only exception would be Oona, but only if Flash goes away and WGD comes back.

We know the templating for what you are talking about though, it would be "Discard another card named Faerie Macabre."
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2008, 07:28:57 pm »

Quote
Faerie Macabre 1BB
Creature - Faerie Rogue
Flying
Discard Faerie Macabre: Remove up to two target cards in graveyards from the game.
2/2

Can someone explain to me how this is good? I'm assuming this has to make it into play first before you can use its ability of discarding a second Faerie to remove graveyard cards. If you can use the ability in hand, how can that be? Is there some sort of precedent for this in the rules? Apart from cycling, I can't think of any cards where you pay the cost preceding the colon to generate the effect after the colon when the card is still in hand.

In terms of the set itself, while some cards have vintage potential and deserve at least a second look, I think there is a very real possibility that no card will ultimately be played from this set in competitive T1. The only exception would be Oona, but only if Flash goes away and WGD comes back.

We know the templating for what you are talking about though, it would be "Discard another card named Faerie Macabre."

Ah, this is the answer to a question I was just typing up after seeing vroman's response. It was my inexperience with the templating that prompted these inquiries, so thanks for the clarifications guys.

The effect is pretty strong, although it still gets competition from Leyline and Extirpate. I wonder if vintage decks will find room for more graveyard hate beyond the 4 Leylines, or if they would actually play this card over Leyline. My guess is no to both questions, but its worth testing out first obviously.
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2008, 08:05:40 pm »

The Doll might still see play in Vintage if Ichorid decks are seeing play. The Faerie doesn't enter the graveyard from play, and so does not remove Bridges. The Doll does.
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2008, 08:28:46 pm »

I think that Manamorphose looks like a really interesting card for Vintage.  I could see this card being really good.
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2008, 08:49:48 pm »

Dream recovery - very conditional draw spell, but possibly broken vs heavy Bazaar environment? or as draw engine for hymn.dec?

Dream Salvage. Though it seems more a win-more I think it'd just be crazy fun to play it after a Draw 7.
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2008, 09:29:57 pm »

I could see Manamorphose being used in UR and UG builds with SSG and ESG.  The idea of an open land + spirit guide turning into a Mana Drain will surely interest somebody.  But spirit guides + blue control has a funny smell to it, especially because UR and UG traditionally are fishy (drainless) decks.  Then again, oathing into a Tidespout Tyrant and not a 6/x with flying also seemed strange for a while.  It might fit with Mutavault to absorb the extra mana too, and the cantrip from Manamorphose will partially offset the card disadvantage.
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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2008, 09:50:00 pm »

Guttural Response  G or R
Instant   Uncommon
Counter target blue instant spell.
Imo, it's an excelent sideboard card for gush decks not running red mainboard. It gives you an excellent 1st turn answer to fight Flash, and it also counters the most played blue cards in Vintage: Ancestral, Brainstorm, FoW, Misdirection, Gush, Pact, TFK, AK's, etc.. etc...

To me, Guttural Response is a top Vintage card that will see lot of game (in sideboards obviously).
This is a strictly better REB in Belcher, as you can cast it with SSG and ESG, and with Bayou, Tropi or Taiga. The point weakness is it cannot counter Tinker, but who cares if you can cast your Belcher ftw with it?
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« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2008, 12:25:51 pm »

Don't forget Augury Adept!
It could replace Ophidian in Mono-Blue!
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« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2008, 02:08:08 pm »

I think manamorphose is going to be a very sweet addition to belcher combo.  Not only does it cantrip, filter mana, and add +1 to storm it also fills up slots that would otherwise be taken by weak/non-optimal cards like wild cantor.  It's basically another red ritual with the added utility of being able to be cast of ES in hand and chrome mox/land grant for bayou.  This would be a much more optimal play if you find yourself with SSG or land grant and need red badly.  This situation does not come up very often and normally you can find red easily and storm up to 3-4 into warrens.  This is the second coming of street wraith but it's likely going to be far better and offer something rather than drain your life and not fix mana.  This card may do to belcher what people thought street wraith was going to do and make it a 56 card deck.  Good times.
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2008, 06:20:49 am »

Faerie Macabre is really insane. Turn 0 Flash-Hate card that canīt be countered by Pact or FoW. Great!
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2008, 07:43:35 am »

Faerie Macabre is really insane. Turn 0 Flash-Hate card that canīt be countered by Pact or FoW. Great!

Flash will have to start running Stiffles and that will slow them down.  Which is a good thing.  I don't want the deck type to disapear, just come into line with all the others.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2008, 08:55:43 am »

I find it more likely that Flash will run Duress or Thoughtseize.
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2008, 09:05:17 am »

I find it more likely that Flash will run Duress or Thoughtseize.

It would have to be Thoughtseize because Duress won't get rid of it, and it still slows them down if they have to worry about a threat they can't see.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2008, 10:16:16 am »

Faerie Macabre is really insane. Turn 0 Flash-Hate card that canīt be countered by Pact or FoW. Great!

They could always just board in the Sliver kill. :'(
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2008, 12:00:57 pm »

Faerie Macabre is really insane. Turn 0 Flash-Hate card that canīt be countered by Pact or FoW. Great!

They could always just board in the Sliver kill. :'(

Or play the dreadnaught kill with stifles main  Very Happy

Or not combo you out and just beat down with a 2/2 and a 6/6
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2008, 12:31:37 pm »

If this card slows Flash down by one or two turns itīs fine.
Sliver Kill is vulnerable to creature removal, whereas the Reveillark combo is really hard to hate with swords, chain of vapor, etc.

So I think that flash players either have to slow their decks, make them more vulnerable or take the risk to lose to 4 leylines + 4 faerie macabres.
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2008, 10:14:14 am »

Why does nobody mention Painterīs Servant?

Together with Grindstone youīll have a non-graveyard-based two card combokill which costs 1+2(+3) mana. You can also play up to 16 Blasts to counter/destroy everything in instant speed as soon as Painterīs Servant is in play. At least you can use REB/Pyro as they help to resolve the combo and they are not worthless without the Servant in a blue meta.

Throw in the usual tutors/FOWīs/BS/Ponder and the Power 8 and you have a new deck.

I always wanted to abuse the Blasts and the Servant is the best option. I have already finished my V1.0 for Vintage and Legacy. My opinion is that this card is even stronger in Legacy but as I am a true Vintage player I will try to fit this into a Vintage skeleton as well.
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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2008, 10:18:56 am »

Why does nobody mention Painterīs Servant?

Are you kidding?  Check these out:

http://www.starcitygames.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=309309

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35424.120

There's at least two threads I know of discussing it right now.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2008, 10:42:11 am »

I wasnīt aware of these topics as they both started to discuss about Painterīs Servant only a couple of hours ago. But I donīt think that Workshop prison will be the best place for him. Also they do not focus on the Grindstone kill, so I will start a new topic in the development forum to abuse him in a combo hull.
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2008, 04:23:26 pm »

Hi, Im here to share some thoughts on shadowmoor for some card that might be overlooked. Nothing epiphanous, but Im a big fan of :

Wheel of Sun and Moon 

As  I understand it, this card stops crucible, loam, dredge, and anything that requires a graveyard.  Combined with Gaddock Teeg and the Greenblast and Bind(yup) and Mana Tithe and ESG,   {G} {W} might have a control thing possible, though the Wheel is a def. bomb.

As well, I think Prismatic Omen has some potential with Domain builds and such, or 5c builds

(personally I wanna see a nonvintage deck like)
Beseech the Queen
Flow of Ideas
Jaws of Stone
Prismatic Omen
Ponder
Garruk
Legacy Weapon (or the REAPERKING)
Mulldrifter
Horde o Notions(ya get it?!)

How about Knollspine Invocation, turning all of your (non land) cards into DD spells
With Land's Edge or Seismic assault showing varied popularity, I see this as next in the lineage

Advice from the Fae is great for Legacy with bitterblossom Tinkermage, Cloud of Faeries, Meddlingmage, Sage of Epityr or a swarm deck(since it just counts creatures)

Plague Vermin is just Cool
(everybody's got rats) PLay this after Mirror Universe, lol



Very Cool set, all in all, and the clique is very cool with street wraith, cyclers and MORTAL COMBAT (the card), he he, check out the FreeStompy Post

Long Live Hypnotoad
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2008, 04:48:06 pm »

I think in honor of vroman's signature Wizards should ban Dream Halls for being way too powerful with Painter's Servant.

I mean seriously, discarding a Yawgmoth's Bargain to play something broken like a Scornful Egotist?  Amazing.  It will take the DCI by storm Smile
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