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Author Topic: Improving on Deez Noughts  (Read 2962 times)
Thicketman
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« on: April 25, 2008, 12:04:40 am »

A deck that I have really been interested in is Deez Noughts. It is fun to play and seems pretty verstile. One thing I have noticed is that it is not as consistant or as fast as other decks in the metagame.

The thing that lures me to this deck is that it is heavily disruptive and also has some moderate aggro. My problem is that it is not as disruptive as Fish and doesn't have as much aggro as a straight beatdown deck.

What I am looking for is an open discussion on improving Deez Noughts to see if we can improve upon some of these weak points. Maybe changing a color, creature, etc.

Below is the current build I have been testing out. Maybe we can branch out from there.


Lands
    1  Island
    1  Bayou
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    1  Flooded Strand
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tropical Island
    3   Underground Sea
    3   Wasteland

Creatures
    1  Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf
    3  Trinket Mage

Spells
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Time Walk
    3   Duress
    1   Demonic Tutor
    1   Vampiric Tutor
    4   Stifle
    4   Force of Will
    1   Black Lotus
    4   Brainstorm
    1   Ancestral Recall
    1   Mox Sapphire
    1   Mox Ruby
    1   Mox Pearl
    1   Mox Jet
    1   Mox Emerald
    1   Lotus Petal
    1  Thoughtseize
    1   Mystical Tutor
    1   Sensei's Divining Top
    1   Trickbind
    1   Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
SB: 1  AEther Spellbomb
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Trygon Predator
SB: 2  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Diabolic Edict
SB: 1  Life from the Loam
SB: 1  Spell Snare
SB: 1  Misdirection
SB: 1  Null Rod
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MMD
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 06:16:45 am »

I recommend to try a Painter´s Servant version like I have posted in my thread:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35698.0

It´s highly disruptive with a combo finish. Certainly its not very aggressive but you can´t have everything.
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the boogie man
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 10:31:46 am »

I also like the list with 4 dreadnoughts. I have been testing it, and it is really aggressive, and runs a surprising amount of disruption. Here is a list to start with:

4 polluted delta
3 underground sea
3 tropical
3 wasteland
2 island
1 strip mine

2 lotus  (petal)
4 mox/ 3 mox + crypt

4 dark confidant
4 dreadnought
3 tarmogoyf
3 cursecatcher (shadowmoor)

3 illusionary mask

4 force of will
4 stifle
3 thoughtseize
2 daze
1 echoing truth/ engineered explosives

4 brainstorm
2 ancestral walk
1 demonic

the illusionary mask lets you play all kinds of bluffing games, especially with cursecatcher. It also makes your mid-late game creatures stick in the face of control. One of the carp brothers did extensive testing with this. This is the first deck I've really ever liked daze in, too.
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Zombie_Jesus
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2008, 12:10:15 pm »

Look at my post under Aggro Troll/ Hate Troll that is the version that i have been playing, very consistant.
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xXscrumXx
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 08:50:39 pm »

Hey all! This is Dustin Buckingham. I have been working on this deck for a while now. Here is the list that I played at SCG on Saturday. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=24881 Let me know what you think.
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the boogie man
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 11:12:13 pm »

Why the divining top? Is it worth the slot, considering that there is no way to find it besides a tutor? It seems like a fine inclusion, I was just wondering. I kind of don't like the imperial seal, I think that mystical is better, because it finds ancestral or bounce during the end of turn, letting you keep stifle mana up.

Have you looked at cursecatcher? It is a one-drop daze, and you mess with people when you drop it under a mask. mind games are key. Also, I really like tarmogoyf, does he have room in the side? He is awsome against random aggro and shop aggro, teaming up with the predator, and he is good against control, though a lot of the deck is. he is also good against aggro control, like gat and whatnot, since he is, by definition, as big as their goyfs, and are much easier to slip under counters and disruption than dreadnaught + stifle/mask.
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Thicketman
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 11:51:35 pm »

I'm a big fan of trinket mage. 3 trinket mages turns all of your 0 and 1 casting cost artifacts into 4 ofs. 3 trinket mages = 4 noughts from 1, 4 crypts from 1, 4 engineered explosives from 1, 4 lotus from 1, and 4 tops from 1.
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the boogie man
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 11:35:31 am »

I like trinket mage, but it is a tad bit slow, and isn't a crazy effective beater. I think that cursecatcher is an awsome addition to the trinket mage version, much moreso than the 4 dreadnought version. With all of the small creatures, perhaps a couple of jittes are worth the slots. this would make the aforementioned mages, confidants, and catchers serious threats, and double as removal.
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xXscrumXx
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 04:05:37 pm »

Ok. I choose the 1 Top because it is simply amazing. I won many games just because of the power of top. There are several shuffle affects in the deck. I also found that it was helpful with Dark Confidant. I love Imperial Seal. The Seal is slower than the Mystical but much more versital. I tested trinket mages and goyfs as well. I think that they actually slow the deck down. I played more dreadnoughts to increase my chance of a 1st turn 12/12, and it worked. I like daze better than the cursecatcher beacuse it is a free counterspell. I found myself tapping out early for 1st turn 12/12's. The daze allowed me an additional free counterspell. This helped me in the early game and in counter battles.
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xXxShugzxXx
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 05:20:15 pm »

Hey All,  Dustin Buckingham and myself traveled together to the SCG power 9.  We both played the same decklist.  Day 1 we splashed green for trygon and on day 2 we splashed red for REB since painter was running wild.  I ended up finishing 9th day 2 and walked away with a twister.  My first piece of power.  But as dustin was saying...Top is amazing, you can do so many tricks with it you'd be amazed.  Mystical isn't as great because were not running will.  I really want to trim the deck down to 60 and I'm really cought in a bind.  I like daze alot but sometimes i just hate it.  Thinking of cutting daze's and running 1 misdirection.  Your thoughts please.
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Phele
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 12:25:36 pm »

Congrats you both on your great results with a great deck Wink

I like the decklist and came to the same conclusions in many cases. (how do the red splash version look btw?)

Senseis Top is a good Brainstorm No. five and fits this role better than Ponder in this deck for several reasons: You use a lot of colorless mana, you have plenty of shuffle effects and you can use it as protection against too much Confidant damage. I also play Tinker/Col in the sideboard, so Top also acts as Tinker target in my list. So, when you see Top just as another Brainstorm effect, it is not random.

Dazes: I love them too and would not play less than two (I play three). Your list differs a bit, as you play one more three-mana-spelle, but the rest of your deck basically doesn't cost more than two mana, especially the broken bombs like Confidant, Mask, Stifle-Nought. Daze perfectly fills the role of protecting your bombs or to support your disruption package (playing Duress for example, holding mana open to Stifle a fetch and still be able to counter stuff). I very often just play things with nothing more than two mana on the board, so Daze is fine. I would love to run Misdirections as well, but you already get plenty of damage and I wouldn't love to flip another five-mana-spell.

Trinkets: In the full Dreadnought build I always found Trinkets just too slow.

Imperial Seal: You are probably right and I should give this a try as well. It just happened to be that I very often played Mystical during upkeep for the überbroken Time Walk. I also play Yawgmoths Will, so this would be a difficult cut. Also I don't like the life loss caused by seal, because as I already said, I want to keep the possibilities of life loss at a minimum, as there is no way I would ever cut Confidants.

Cutpurses: I have toyed around with these as well. Sometimes they were broken, but in average I would just say so so. There are so many blockers around and it got worse with Painter entering the field. Additionally it costs three mana with double color. I cut Will for a while for a Cutpurse - quasi as Confidant No. five - but meanwhile came back to Will in the maindeck. This is not Grim Long, but with Petal and co Will can still generate horrifying card advantage - even in this deck.

Thoughtseizes/Duress: I always have been an opponent of Thoughtseizes in this deck (life loss ...) but with Painter as a top deck, I changed my mind a bit. Now we have two combo decks that really got hit hard by getting a creature out of their hand. And this also fits with my sideboard plan against painter. So yes: I would add Thoughtseize as well but am just not sure about the right number. Did you like the 2/2 configuration?

Color Splash: I tried out green as well, mainly for the same reasons as you did: Predator! A very flexible critter against so many decks. But I think, it doesn't really make the cut. Against Workshops it can be very effective, WHEN it enters the field. But this can be very tough against its mana denial elements. Against Oath and Painter in my testing sesssions it very often came too late, and it also can be hit by REB. So I am not sure by the green splash anymore. Goyfs are great in an aggro field, but not more. We already do play pretty big critters Wink Red might be the way to go, to fight Painter. But I think you can try it out with the simple U/B shell as well. A good combination of Thoughtseizes/Extirpates/Smothers might serve as answers, as the Painter is the part the deck is mainly build around. Withoug them, its much easier to beat them, especially as they cant block Confidants anymore  Very Happy
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xXscrumXx
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 06:47:47 pm »

Phele, first let me say thanks for your congradulations. This is a really incredible deck!

I'm glad that you like the Top (it's broke) and the dazes. I feel like that I should have played 3 daze, cut the Cutpurse's, and added a yawgmoth's will. I like never really like the thoughseize b/c of the life loss either, but it turns out that it was a great addition to the deck. I really like the 2/2 spilt. I originally added them b/c I knew painter would be everywhere. I love the Imperial Seal simply b/c I can get anything with it. In playtesting there were may times that I would have multiple dreadnooghts in hand or a stifle and I needed an Illusionary or a dreadnought. So for me Seal is the way to go.

Ok. Now the color splash. I really liked the green b/c of the Oath match. The Trygons were actually quite useful. It was awesome to see the look on my opponents face when I played a flying guy that eats artifacts. I even brought him in against painter. It was just another creature that they had to deal with. When I switched to red on day 2 I took out the 2 Cutpurse and played 2 REB, I also played 2 REBs in sb. For me they were terrible b/c I played against stax all day. The REBs were amazing against the gush decks and xXshugzXx did well with them. I am still toying around with the color splash, not sure what to try. For now I think I'm going to keep the red and play REBs and Heretics in sb. Im's still testing it out.

I love the dreadnought decks and I am continuing to toy with the combo. I'm going to keep looking for deck ideas that make make playing 12/12's that much better.
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frolll
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« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2008, 01:47:38 am »

As far as the color splash issue goes, I think that White shouldn't be overlooked. Recently, in France, an invitationnal only tournament was won by a Deez Nought deck splashing not Green but White, its pilot stating that Green wasn't all this good, and if you just want a damn beater you should at least give a shot to the good old Jotun Grunt. It seems to have been a great choice for him, since he went to win the whole thing, defeating Tyrant Oath in the Finals, and Flash before.
Sensei's Divining Top is in there, too.

Here's the list, if you don't mind me posting a White-splashed list :
Quote
http://decklist.zmx.cc/decklist/Vintage/St%E9phane+Tichadou+aka.+despon/1989.html
 FORMAT : Vintage
 NAME : www.magicbazar.fr
 AUTHOR : Stéphane Tichadou aka. despon
 DATE : 2008-03-16
 TOURNAMENT : CDF final 2007
 PLACE :[/B] 1
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Island
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Force of Will
        1 Time Walk
        3 Flooded Strand
        2 Wasteland
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Tormod's Crypt
        3 Tundra
        3 Underground Sea
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mana Crypt
        4 Duress
        2 Stifle
        1 AEther Spellbomb
        1 Engineered Explosives
        4 Dark Confidant
        1 Pithing Needle
        1 Sensei's Divining Top
        1 Repeal
        3 Jotun Grunt
        3 Trinket Mage
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Annul
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2 Leyline of Singularity
BBCode fournis par http://decklist.zmx.cc

Thing is, against the diverse Painters deck, I really don't have any clue, except that this won't be a walk in the park...
Just sayin' that this splash could be quite good; depends on the meta. Hope to give you some ideas on how to "improve" this already really good deck.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 04:14:45 am by frolll » Logged

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apocalyp
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« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2008, 06:48:34 am »

I Top8'd last weekend with this version of Deeznoughts,  going 3-1-1 losing only to a dreadnought servant deck.   I lost in the top 8 to a platinum oath deck.  Here's the list I used, I'm going off the top of my head mind you because I'm at work.

Deeznaughts

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Time Walk
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Dark Confident
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Illusionnary Mask
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black lotus
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
1x Tropical Island
2x Island

Sideboard

4x Leyline of the void
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Pithing Needle
3x Hurkyl's Recall
2x trygon Predator
1x Darkblast
1x Extirpate
1x Gaea's Blessing


As far as changes to the deck I changed the demonic consultation to life from the loam and the sideboard darkblast to another extirpate.

Most of the deck is pretty standard but I find having 4 dreadnought/3 goyfs to be extremely strong.   You can control the board with counters and mana denial (strip effects & stifles) whileplaying your beats, and 7 big creatures is a lot harder to deal with than 4.   Life from the loam will also make the goyf big fast.

I've considered running top, it's extremely powerful but I just don't know what I would cut.
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