[Deck - Powered]Stutter Still [UR Landstill + Spellstutter Sprite]

[garathiel]

Hi there , in the last 2 months i was playing a particular decklist that i made ... after I saw a nice card like - spellstutter sprite -

-
- card advantage
- beater

What a nice card!!!
I take a landstill list and i tried to broke her limits.
Duress was a great problem for landstill , and spellstutter could give us more chance to make  2 active counters(or more) in a turn.

Duress - Black Lotus - Ancestral - Reb - Brainstorm - Fastbond - Negation Pact ... ecc ...with some help like cloud of faeries & mutavault we could counter something of casting cost 2 , in late game we could counter cc3 too like yaghmoth & thinker.

Stutter_Still v1.0

lands:24

4x wasteland
1x strip mine

3x Mishra's Factory
3x Mutavault

4x Polluted Delta
4x Volcanic Island
3x Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Library of Alexandria


board_control:4
2x Fire/Ice
2x Echoing Truth

artifacts:2
2x Crucible of worlds

control:15
4x Force of Will
3x Stifle
3x daze
3x Spell Snare
2x misdirection

enchantment@4
4x Standstill

Creatures:11
3x gorilla shaman
2x ninja of the deep hours
2x Cloud of faeries
4x Spellstutter Sprite


SIDEBOARD

3x Ancient Grudge
3x Pyroclasm
4x Tormod
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Energy Flux
1x Seasinger

I made top16 and win the Unspo best price (ancestral recall) in a 145 persons tournament like Empoli's DDay 2008 here in italy.

After that i tried some changes and made a powered version that made 2 final in a few weeks ... ( 2time walks split in final = 1time walk wins)

And here it is...the powered version that i'm using now.





Stutter Still Powered V2.0

manabase@23

colored:13
2x island
4x Volcanic Island
4x polluted delta
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox ruby

nocolored:10
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
3x mishra's factory
1x mutavault
1x library of alexandria

protections@14
4x Forse of will
4x spellstutter sprite
3x spell snare
3x daze

utilities@11
3x stifle
1x mystical tutor
1x chain of vapor
1x echoing truth
2x fire/ice
1x misdirection
1x time walk
1x crucible of worlds

drawers@7
4x standstill
2x ninja of the deep hours
1x ancestral recall


others@5
3x gorilla shaman
2x cloud of faeries


SIDEBOARD
2x threads of disloyalty
3x tormod's crypt
2x pyroblast
3x ingot chewer
2x viashino heretic
3x grim lavamancer

Sorry for my english.
Hope to have some nice feedbacks from you all , that's my first post.

Alexander.

[Shock Wave]

First of all, congratulations on your strong performances. I like that you've taken Landstill and have been successful innovating with it. That being said, I strongly disagree with the direction you've taken the deck, starting with the main reason for your changes.

Duress was a great problem for landstill , and spellstutter could give us more chance to make  2 active counters(or more) in a turn.

Essentially, what you've done is identify a weakness of the deck and made drastic changes to the core in order to shore up that perceived shortcoming. As a result, you've made the deck much more fragile and less consistent overall. I think that the problem that players have with Landstill is that they cannot accept the design approach required to be successful with this deck.

When designing Landstill, the correct approach is to design the deck to have a 50/50 matchup against the field and choose 1 matchup that you will concede to be unfavourable, while keeping in mind that in addition to this poor matchup, you also have an auto-loss matchup against Ichorid. What new Landstill players tend to do is to try to build the deck to have a favourable matchup against everything, or to hedge strongly against a few types of decks, and the results are bastardized versions of the deck that tend to perform very poorly over time.

In regards to Spellstutter Sprite, I think you've exaggerate its strengths and overlooked its very glaring weaknesses. It is a very poor method of gaining "card advantage", as the net result is card parity and a 1/1 beater for 1U. That's not a very strong play. You may argue that it acts as disruption, but it only disrupts stops spells cost 1 or less mana (unless you have other faeries in play, of which you run very few) at the cost of 1U. That is very poor. You describe it as a "beater", but it is only a 1/1. That makes it a terrible clock and hardly qualifies as a benefit to the deck. Landstill has its problems, but a shortage of win conditions is not one of them.

You've also chosen to run Gorilla Shaman instead of Null Rod which is a very serious mistake. Null Rod is one of the cornerstones of this deck and removing it will result in an overall degradation in performance. Curiously, you've added Faeries and Ninja to the deck, which is are both very suspect inclusions. Cloud is just an awful card, bordering on a dead draw, and Ninja, without the small beaters to fuel it, is a Turn 4 play with this deck. That is quite awful.

Landstill wins by surviving the early game and winning in the late game. It has more than ample methods of winning once the game is locked down. It seems you've opted for a more aggressive version of the deck, which will open you up even further to the broken starts that Landstill already fears.

A development that I do agree with, to an extent, is the inclusion of Spell Snare at the expense of Mana Drain. Not surprisingly, Mana Drain is the weakest card in the deck right now and Spell Snare might be the right compliment/substitute. I'm not sure if I would cut all 4 Mana Drains, but Spell Snare is certainly worth investigation in the current metagame.

[garathiel]

there are few things that i would explain better.

The deck would do some mana denial to play with success DAZE , wastelands & strip + stifles ... in plus of it i take 3 slot for moxes denial.

a)moxes denial:

- An Earlier version of the deck uses Null rod , but i disliked to have only 4x Standstill ( +1 ancestral in the powered version) to make card advantage , we need another drawer. I found in ninja a good replacement of this lack.
- Ninja make some card advantage , beat without using our mana ... and recycle our spellstutter sprite ... but for use ninjas , i need more creatures , so null rod became gorilla shaman

Pro of Gorilla
° he destroy moxes , pithing needle , chalice of the void@2 , sphere of resistence( and he bypass thorn of ametist)
Lack
° he is quite useless vs solring & black lotus & lotus petal & artifacts with abilities ... triskelion , karn , ravager , jitte , sword of fire/ice
Exception
° we could sometime counter a sol ring or a black lotus with a spellstutter sprite , that is quite good and compense the lack above.

b)manipolation denial:
to make mana denial more complete , we need to counter the opponent spells that manipulate his deck like BRAINSTORM , SENSEI'S DIVING TOP , PONDER(sometimes too).
Spellstutter sprite make a good work with mana denial.

You are right sayng that this is a strange landstill , i think that its an hybrid , i must made some decisions ... take more creatures and became a fishlike , or trow out ninjas and cloud of faeries and became more landstill.

I need more tests & helps from the community.
And yes , i'm here to know what you think of it.
Thanks!

[CalmLikeABomb]

Congrats on the great finishes. I like seeing decks like this succeed. Truly vintage.

Try Mystic Remora instead of one of the bounces and two of the controls. They work well with the still and allow you to survive the early with even more effectiveness.

You'll find yourself with alot of draw. Maybe start sacrificing some of the critters/control pieces to get some more zero mana in there.

Hope this helps..

[Shock Wave]

The deck would do some mana denial to play with success DAZE , wastelands & strip + stifles ... in plus of it i take 3 slot for moxes denial.

Mana denial is Landstill's primary objective, yet you only play 3 Stifle, which is one of the most important early game spells in the deck.

- An Earlier version of the deck uses Null rod , but i disliked to have only 4x Standstill ( +1 ancestral in the powered version) to make card advantage , we need another drawer. I found in ninja a good replacement of this lack.

Landstill's primary objective is not to draw cards. It wants to stop the opponent from playing threats. Drawing cards is a secondary concern. At board/card parity, resolving one Standstill is often enough to get ahead enough so that your opponent cannot recover. I've been playing Landstill for a long time and drawing cards has never been an issue I've been concerned about.

... but for use ninjas , i need more creatures , so null rod became gorilla shaman

Yes, I understand that you need creatures to fuel Ninja, but creatures in Landstill are terrible. You might as well cut the Standstill, play Brainstorm, and play UR Fish instead. Your 2nd turn Standstill is very weak in comparison to traditional Landstill lists. You run 20 lands (very light) and very few pitch counters. Your Daze becomes very weak if your opponent decides to wait you out under a Standstill. In other words, your Standstill at board parity is an extremely weak play, because your permission base is weak and you run the risk of not being able to develop as a result of your low land count.

On the other hand, if you do not play an early Standstill, you are relying on a control element vastly inferior to Null Rod to keep you in the game: Gorilla Shaman. What deck cares about Gorilla Shaman? It doesn't prevent your opponent from accelerating. It doesn't hose combo or Yawgmoth's Will. Landstill doesn't care about pithing Needle. Needle is a weak play against the deck. He does have an upside against Thorn, but that is a paltry benefit when considering how it pales to the strength of Null Rod.

to make mana denial more complete , we need to counter the opponent spells that manipulate his deck like BRAINSTORM , SENSEI'S DIVING TOP , PONDER(sometimes too).Spellstutter sprite make a good work with mana denial.

.. but compare Sprite to Mana Leak. The upside of Leak is far greater than the benefit of having a 1/1 creature in play. Leak accomplishes the primary objective of Sprite (countering a spell) with far greater effectiveness.

You are right sayng that this is a strange landstill , i think that its an hybrid , i must made some decisions ... take more creatures and became a fishlike , or trow out ninjas and cloud of faeries and became more landstill.

I think that once the cat is out of the bag, and your opponents realize that your Standstill route is very weak, I don't think you'll be enjoying much success with this version. It is trying to accomplish the goals of two different decks (UR Fish and Landstill) and doesn't seem adequately equipped to play either role very well.

I encourage you to keep playing it, because the only way you can know for sure is to test in real tournaments, although I suspect you will enjoy limited success.

[beder]

Congratulation Alexander for you results.
The idea of adding little creatures with nice utilities is interesting, it adds an auxiliarry "mini-clock" to the land threats.
Of course, this is not a regular standstill build, but more a fish/standstill hybrid. Apparently it works well for you.

When it comes to some replies in this thread, I am a little bit surprised by the approach consisting of explaining to you how bad is your build, why you didn't understand what is Standstill, why all your card choices are bad... You have been told how to build standstill, what are the universal rules, where is the truth, ... Apparently, your build should be a desaster and shouldn't work at all. Given the results you posted, you must be very lucky or a really brilliant player
And like it has been said, "test in real tournament ... i suspect you will enjoy limited success". It seems the italian tournaments you told us about - 145 people top 16 and 2 final split - are not worth mentionning...

To be more serious, there are 2 cards I am really not sure about in your powered build : clouded faeries. I am pretty sure you can find some more interesting cards for those 2 slots. I think the main pro "increase the faerie number for spellshutter" does not worth it. What about trying "curscatcher" from the latest edition. It seems it could be an interesting option in your overall man denial strategy.
Then another remark : you have many x2 and x3. In order your deck to be more consistent - because IMHO this should be one of your primay objective when building such a deck -  perhaps should you try to focus more on some choices.

PS : sorry for my english, message from France

[Shock Wave]

Given the results you posted, you must be very lucky or a really brilliant player

That's actually very possible. It wouldn't be the first time that a great player has enjoyed success with a terrible deck.

And like it has been said, "test in real tournament ... i suspect you will enjoy limited success". It seems the italian tournaments you told us about - 145 people top 16 and 2 final split - are not worth mentionning

They are certainly worth mentioning, but the question that begs to be asked is whether the proposed list can be improved in spite of those good performances. I contend that a Landstill/Fish hybrid is not the way to go, and that given the current list, moving towards a straight UR Fish build utilizing Brainstorm instead of Standstill would be an improvement.The reasoning is simple: Playing a Standstill on Turn 2 with this deck, with a 1/1 beater or at board parity is not a very safe play. You cannot put much pressure, because it is unlikely that you'll be able to win a counter war with only Force of Will as pitch magic. In addition, without Null Rod, the mana denial plan is rather weak.

To be more serious, there are 2 cards I am really not sure about in your powered build : clouded faeries. I am pretty sure you can find some more interesting cards for those 2 slots. I think the main pro "increase the faerie number for spellshutter" does not worth it. What about trying "curscatcher" from the latest edition. It seems it could be an interesting option in your overall man denial strategy.
Then another remark : you have many x2 and x3. In order your deck to be more consistent - because IMHO this should be one of your primay objective when building such a deck -  perhaps should you try to focus more on some choices.

I think your advice is sound. As you can see by your own admission, the deck could use improvement. If we just accept two tournaments as proof that the deck is optimal, there's really no point in discussing anything.

[garathiel]

I know that the deck isn't optimal! That's sure.

The first tournament that i play with it is the DDay Empoli 2008 ... and i tested it only for few matches before that event ... before that event i made a top8 in Lucca2007 168 players with 7wins - 2 I.D ... and a loose in the top8 from one of the first artifact+Sword of fire ice ... and i was playing a UR sligh Unpowered , so i think to be a player that knows the rules and have some tricks  .

The deck "need" improvements because when I tried this idea in the real tournament , was the first time in my life that I play a standstill , so Errors in the deckbuilding is normal I think...hope to don't make others 

Anyway , some stategy:

- I have 2mana open , 1spellstuttersprite+another_protection and 1standstill in hand ... I usuallly say "go" and keep spellstutter open , so when i cast standstill i have a 1/1 beater ( plus 4manlands in the deck for the powered version) , so we have a 20 turn clock if we don't find the manlands , and usually a 6 turn clock with a manland in play ... i think that a normal standstill would have a 9 turn clock (Fire/ice , fetches , forces)

- Sometimes under standstill i have 2creatures and a manlands ... I usually beat with the 2 creatures ( 10 turns clock ) and stay open with the mana ... i prefer a  10 turn clock staying mana open for counter that beat with the manland too and give a (5 turn clock) but tapped out.
°many times , only when i think that my opponet wouldn't broke standstill next turn i beat with manlands too , or when i am in flood

So i accept some lack in the protections/removal with a gain in clock and mana open.

p.s. I like mystic remora ... but i think she improve a matchup that we don't need ... the control combo match , could you tell more of this choice please?

Thank you all!




 

[RJ]

Anyway , some stategy:

- I have 2mana open , 1spellstuttersprite+another_protection and 1standstill in hand ... I usuallly say "go" and keep spellstutter open , so when i cast standstill i have a 1/1 beater ( plus 4manlands in the deck for the powered version) , so we have a 20 turn clock if we don't find the manlands , and usually a 6 turn clock with a manland in play ... i think that a normal standstill would have a 9 turn clock (Fire/ice , fetches , forces)

I think this was Shockwave's point.  In this case you are playing more of a UR fish kind of deck and not a traditional standstill deck.  While it's nice to have both aspects and the decks will really be linked cause they are in the same colors and play some similar cards, the fundamental plan is different.  In your current configuration, this play is correct since you more than likely will not be able to control the board once your standstill is broken.  You will just draw more dudes and play them.  Standstill works, but probably shouldn't be your plan.

p.s. I like mystic remora ... but i think she improve a matchup that we don't need ... the control combo match , could you tell more of this choice please?

It's a neat card, but it has no place in this deck.  You would be better served using your mana on threats and answers, since you don't have the raw power that other decks have.  Remora works great when you are drawing cards looking for fastbond or tinker or will or any other bomb.  You don't really have that so the search/draw filter is less important. 

I think that you could actually do better by increasing the number of Cloud of Faeries in the deck.  If you want to use spellstutter as disruption, then turn 2 cloud into spellstutter is actually a decent play.  A change like this would definitely turn the deck into UR fish at that point.  It will also give your ninja's a fighting chance. 

[Nevermore]

In the vintage improvement forum under "fairy shaite" the idea of standstill and spellstutter sprite is discussed if you are interested at taking a look.  The build was blue black though and used bitter blossoms under standstill.  There are also many other good ideas for spellstutter variants that are definetly worth looking at as well.

[garathiel]

manabase@23
colored:13
2x island
4x Volcanic Island
4x fetch
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox ruby
nocolored:10
5x slandi
3x mishra's factory
1x mutavault
1x library of alexandria

protections@14
4x Forse of will
3x spell snare
3x daze
3x stifle
1x negate

utilities@7
1x chain of vapor
1x echoing truth
1x fire/ice
1x magma jet
1x time walk
1x crucible of worlds

drawers@6
4x standstill
1x brainstorm
1x ancestral recall
1x Fact of Fiction
1x ninja of the deep hours

Creatures@10
4x spellstutter sprite
3x gorilla shaman
2x cloud of faeries


SIDEBOARD
2x threads of disloyalty
2x tormod's crypt
2x pyroblast
2x ingot chewer
2x eretico viashino
2x grim lavamancer
1x shattering spree
1x energy flux
1x misdirection

I'm trying a some new cards ...
fact or fiction
negate
brainstorm
magma jet

I need to see how they works , i moved misdirection to my sideboard 'cos artifact is too much diffused now to have dead cards in the main deck the 4 new cards are more reliable vs all the field.

I think i should prefer to reduce ninja's & don't touch the number of the faeries , using more direct counters ( like negate ) and brute istant drawing ( like fact ) and some tool to manipulate the deck ( brainstorm&magmajet ), if we topdeck a brain under standstill we will be happy to see when the time come ( knowing that in the deck there aren't anymore )

Hope you like the deck.

Full of Tools , a little randomic , but efficient and very very fun i think.

( I'm reading the posts thank you nevermore )

[madmanmike25]

Welcome to TMD garathiel!  Here you will get tons of conflicting advice(ie. Cloud of Faeries are bad vs. play with more Cloud of Faeries.)  Your best bet is typically to do your own testing.

In regards to your first post, I think that list is far from "terrible".  Double-true since you have had success with it and also made play errors.  Listen to all the suggestions, but let your own experience guide your deckbuilding.  All I can offer is that I see no way for you to take care of a beefy creature, or even a 1/1 that is equiped with Sword.  Unless I'm mistaken, the old Landstill lists ran Swords to Plowshares.  Also, the list you just posted has a lot of 1-ofs and no tutors.  I wish you luck with the 3 cards Standstill *might* let you draw.

@Shock Wave
I'm really curious whether or not you see ANY deck that runs Standstill as being viable in todays meta.  To me Landstill variants always seem similar to Fish decks in the fact that they have "win small" written all over 'em.  From what I have seen, you typically dislike the direction most people take these types of decks.  Since you have probably had the most experience in testing this archtype, maybe it would be better if you help these people by giving them the decklist you would run.  Do you even feel Standstill is a good draw engine anymore?  Take into account Vintage still has its fair share of Juggs and Goyfs which make casting Standstill a horrible play.  Does Landstill need a face-lift(as many people have tried to do on these forums) or should it just be allowed to wither away?

p.s.
You might even be able to compare Standstill to Merchant Scroll; and it's easy to pick the better card since not too many Landstill variants can squeeze in 4 copies of Scroll.

Mike

[garathiel]

Standstill is quite a good cards even now.

If the deck is consistent , like 1/3 of it are counters the only problem is to gain the board control.

In the first 2 turn our opponent would play not so many creature spell that increase his board control , if he made we would counter only the thing that we could manage ( like goyf/driad/atog/welder ) or bounce it EOT and casting standstill in our ... hoping to find a counter if our opponent would cast it again.

That's why i made quite 1/3 of the deck as counters.

Yes there are so many 1x , but don't forget the structure of the deck.

23manabase
4standstill 1ancestral 1timewalk
1/3 protections
utilities
3mox denials

mox denials are gorilla shaman in this case , a good choice because its an 1/1 beater , and spellstutter sprite is a counter spell , but a 1/1 beater too ... so the deck use the usual cards for a normal standstill , but the gain of clock and the reliability of those cards is a good step forward for the archetype ( gorilla eats so many things ... and is good vs chalice@2that broke the deck) .

[garathiel]

The salmon fish

mana base
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
3x mishra's factory
1x library of alexandria
4x polluted delta
4x volcanic island
3x island
1x mox ruby
1x mox sapphire


Fishes
4x spellstutter sprite
3x cloud of faeries
3x grim lavamancer
2x gorilla shaman
1x waterfront bouncer

Drawers
4x standstill
3x curiosity
1x ancestral
1x brainstorm

Tools
2x sigil of sleep
1x crucible of worlds
1x timewalk

Protections
4x Force of will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
2x Mana leak/miscalculation

Sideboard
4x propaganda
1x tormod's crypt
1x reb elemental blast
1x blu elemental blast
1x energy flux
2x ingot chewer
2x viashino eretic
2x kira

--------------------------------------------

Fashion news for us , we are in a follouted world but our waters are clean and life continue...!!!
Some technic advices:

mana base
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
3x mishra's factory
1x library of alexandria
4x polluted delta
4x volcanic island
3x island
1x mox ruby
1x mox sapphire

22 , -black lotus , -4° mishra , we need more spells and we don't need many mana , only 2 to go.

--------------------------------------

Fishes
4x spellstutter sprite
3x cloud of faeries
3x grim lavamancer
2x gorilla shaman
1x waterfront bouncer/Looter il kor

7x Faeries it's ok , evasive critters.
Only 5 red critter because of some scriew in the tests , now we are rock solid.
1x tech slot , looter is good to dig into the deck ... with curiosity is a draw two discard one ... much more than a free brainstorm every turn...But bouncer is more solid ...don't know wich is better.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Drawers
4x standstill
3x curiosity
1x ancestral
1x brainstorm

i prefer 1x brainstorm above 4° curiosity because we have already 5 enchant creatures , that is much.
no ponder/mystical/merchant scroll

----------------------------------------------------------

Tools
2x sigil of sleep
1x crucible of worlds
1x timewalk

sigil is our bounce resource , with an evasive critter or grim lavamancer we have a costant way to bounce ... repitetively the best opponent creatures.
Crucible because without gushes our 5x strips is very powerfull .
Strips & Manlands recursion is great vs every decks ... only vs gushbased deck and faster combo is useless.

-------------------------------------------------

Protections
4x Force of will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
2x Mana leak/miscalculation

I tried to take only the more usefull cards.
I cut Red Elemental Blasts , Misdirections , Negates ... i choose for 2x Leak and 3x Stifle , the best.