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Author Topic: Goyf and opponent interaction  (Read 2760 times)
Moxlotus
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« on: May 26, 2008, 08:02:16 pm »

If I ask my opponent how big his Goyf is, is he required to tell me?

If I ask if his Goyf is a 3/4, does he have to confirm/deny if I am correct?

Here is the conflict I am having.  Basically I am asking if his goyf is a 3/4 and he is staying silent.

Quote from: me
And I will keep on asking to make sure we both agree on game state and if you continue to not answer I will call judge and say that we cannot agree on the proper game state because, well, you remained silent and did not state whether you agreed or not with my statement about the state of the game.

Quote from: other guy
And that doesn't work either. See i actually have asked judges about this many many times. Infact if you keep asking me i can call a judge on you for stalling.

Asking a question multiple times is grounds for stalling usually. Dependeing on the judge asking a question multiple times that the opponent doesn't even have to answer may get you even more penalized. Asking "how many cards in your hand" like 10 times in a row is bad. But asking "is your goyf a 2/3" 10 times in a row may be seen as worse. The judge may let you get away with it once but thats about it

so, how does the judge rule?
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 08:24:30 pm by Moxlotus » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2008, 09:13:19 pm »

They recently added a Communication Guidelines to the Penalty Guidelines. It lays out a baseline for how much information players are required to communicate.

Quote from: PG
Free information is so called because all players are entitled access to this information without contamination or omissions made by their opponent. If you’re ever unable or unwilling to provide free information to an opponent that has requested it, you should call a judge and explain the situation. Free Information includes:

Details of current game actions and past game actions that still affect the game state.

The name of any object in a public zone.

The physical status (tapped/flipped) and current zone of any object.

Player life totals and the game score of the current match.

Derived information is information to which all players are permitted, but which your opponents are not obliged to assist you in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. Derived Information includes:

The number of objects present in any game zone.

All objects in public zones and any of their characteristics that are not defined as free information.

Game Rules, Tournament Policy, Oracle content and any other official information pertaining to the current event. Cards are considered to have their Oracle text printed on them.

Sorry for the big block of text. This is a quote from the CG about what defines free vs derived.

Quote
Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.

Players must answer completely and honestly any specific questions pertaining to free information.

At Regular REL, all derived information is instead considered free.

These are the relevant rules for communication. If this is being run at Regular REL, then whenever you ask "Is your Goyf a 3/4?", he needs to either answer you or call over a judge and explain why he doesn't want to answer you.
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LordHomerCat
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2008, 01:51:16 am »

These are the relevant rules for communication. If this is being run at Regular REL, then whenever you ask "Is your Goyf a 3/4?", he needs to either answer you or call over a judge and explain why he doesn't want to answer you.

However, at Competitive REL (or whatever the higher level is called), the level where PTQs and things like SCG P9's are held, he isn't obliged to answer me truthfully, since it's derived information, correct?
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2008, 06:26:21 am »

Quote
Derived information is information to which all players are permitted, but which your opponents are not obliged to assist you in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine.
Quote
Players may not represent derived or free information incorrectly, improperly, or falsely.

These statements would lead me to believe that if he does answer you, he is obligated to provide you with a truthful answer.  He is not, however, obligated to provide you with any answer at all.
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Zherbus
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2008, 10:46:03 am »

He can't lie, but he can basically say "do the math yourself".
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Clariax
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2008, 02:10:13 pm »

Simply put, at Regular REL he must tell you (or get a judge to tell you if for some reason he is unable).  At Competitive or Professional REL, he doesn't have to tell you, but he can not lie to you with a false answer (and a judge will not provide the answer if you ask).
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Aaron Cutler
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 11:33:15 am »

This situation seems very unfun. Is this rule necessarily to prevent an opponent from asking tons of silly game-state questions you -must- answer to waste time until the clock is up?
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Clariax
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 02:58:40 pm »

The rule has nothing to do with preventing asking questions.  The opponent can ask all the questions he wants, you just don't have to answer them.  And if he's asking questions just to waste time, that falls quite clearly under stalling.  If your opponent is doing that, you need to call a judge.  Even if it's a situation where you MUST answer certain questions, your opponent still can't ask question after question that you must answer just to waste time.

This situation seems very unfun. Is this rule necessarily to prevent an opponent from asking tons of silly game-state questions you -must- answer to waste time until the clock is up?
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Aaron Cutler
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