Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted

[arctic79]

My legacy Kobolds is now going Vintage.
Oh Yeah.
Hatred for the Win!!!

[dicemanx]

but ponder is utterly stupid. brainstorm is ruinous.

i always thought that the restricted list was for "problem" cards that crowd the format with an unacceptable level of brokenness or unfairness, or to quote richard, un-fun or un-interactivity (i should do a better job of quoting him, but that was the jist of it)

The B/R list ultimately serves the purpose of maintaining a fun and interactive format; if the goal is to make blue more fair, then arguably you have to hit cards that aren't "broken" per se. In a vacuum, hitting Brainstorm and ponder does appear monumentally stupid. Put in the context of the format and how it has evolved in the past 3 years, the decision might actually be a very good one.

I think we'll have to readdress this question in about a month - emotions are running much too high presently to be able to objectively evaluate the "correctness" of this decision. Plus, its not like Brainstorm or Ponder will stay restricted forever; if it turns out that they were indeed integral to the format, there is no reason why we can't campaign for their return. For the time being, why not see what the new format brings?

[LSV]

This is pretty dissapointing. I just played in a Vintage tournament today and I really felt like the biggest edge I had in the blue mirrors was the proper usage of Brainstorm. Timing the card, playing it right, and really maximizing its value are so integral to winning that restricting it really seems like it takes a lot of the skill that we know and love out of Vintage.

I find it hard to really argue that playing Workshop or Ichorid is very difficult, and I hope that the format doesn't degenerate into the opening-hand roulette people always falsely assume Type 1 is made up of.

[frolll]

 
That is bad. I hope on Friday they'll say it's June's Fool or something and unrestrict those Brainstorms and Ponders.
PONDER ?! WTF ! It's like they don't want us to draw cards, ever. Let's just dredge them... 

[Moxlotus]

It's like they don't want us to draw cards, ever. Let's just dredge them...   

Intuition and Accumulated knowledge still exist.  Bazaar can be used for drawing.  Leviat.dec ftw?

[Razvan]

but ponder is utterly stupid. brainstorm is ruinous.

i always thought that the restricted list was for "problem" cards that crowd the format with an unacceptable level of brokenness or unfairness, or to quote richard, un-fun or un-interactivity (i should do a better job of quoting him, but that was the jist of it)

The B/R list ultimately serves the purpose of maintaining a fun and interactive format; if the goal is to make blue more fair, then arguably you have to hit cards that aren't "broken" per se. In a vacuum, hitting Brainstorm and ponder does appear monumentally stupid. Put in the context of the format and how it has evolved in the past 3 years, the decision might actually be a very good one.

I think we'll have to readdress this question in about a month - emotions are running much too high presently to be able to objectively evaluate the "correctness" of this decision. Plus, its not like Brainstorm or Ponder will stay restricted forever; if it turns out that they were indeed integral to the format, there is no reason why we can't campaign for their return. For the time being, why not see what the new format brings?

i can live with this, although i stand by my first assertion (for now). but ponder isn't integral, which is why it's a bit frightening. ponder is REALLY random. sets a bad precedent.

[frolll]

OMG if that means playing Leviat again !
Form of the Dragon FTW !!!!

But still... Dredge is going to be quite the deck... And I don't think it's all that good for the format. Well, we'll see. I mean, yep, AK, TfK, etc... are still playable, but it's going to be extremely hard to play a blue based control deck without the "fixing" of Brainstorm. Or maybe just impossible. Oh, and Longish decks without Brainstorm AND Ponder ? No thanks. :/

[fromm2020]

I understand what they were trying to do with brainstorm, using it to slow the format down, but ponder was excessive. with out nerfing Ichorid at all and taking blues draw core out, they have basically yanked half the talent from the format. hopefully theyll do something about ichorid in the next few months, then it will be back to a lil shop a lil control(slaver or just drain) and a lil combo, but for the next few months vintage is going to suck and alot of tournaments are going to have 5+ players of the top8 there because play quality wont be as important as the power level of autopilot decks. I see alot of upcoming top 8s having 2-3 shop decks, 2-3 Ichorids, and 1st or second place will be an actual talent deck. but oh well since when has wizards actually been smart in regards to this format, were just going to start seeing a new level of gameplay and alot of new innovative ideas that werent possible before.

[mogote]

My first reaction was: WTF!?!
And I always thought that the DCI's approach to B&R list changes was a more cautious one to see what happens after a change. I'm just wondering why they restrict Ponder while cards like Mishra's Workshop or Bazaar of Baghdad are still allowed as four-offs.

Also, I just realized that Brainstorm, Ponder and Merchant Scroll are now added to the list of cards unbanned in Legacy but restricted in Vintage. This means I cannot even port my Legacy Threshold into a Vintage setting anymore.

Maybe they really want to restrict everything until Skullclamp becomes good, and then restrict Skullclamp (I can't remember where I read that).

[bluemage55]

Wow.  Just wow.  I've always just lurked here in the past rather than saying anything, but I had to join today just to talk about this.

As far as I can see, this was a business decision.  Unless WotC announces June Fool's on Friday, any reason they give is likely to be just so much fluff.  This announcement was made to make money.  

By destroying Vintage as we know it, and topping the top-tier decks, more Vintage players will move on to other formats (ones that actually encourage purchasing new cards), and those that stay will have a format that is less stable and more dependent on the cards that new formats bring (thus increasing spending on future sets again).

Why they chose to do this now, in the golden age of Vintage, I cannot know.  What I do find interesting is that since Hasbro has taken over WotC, they have listened less and less to their most loyal old-guard consumers, in both D&D and Magic alike.  Perhaps they do this now with the faltering economy, perhaps they do it to keep up with the D&D department which has also been making unwelcome changes to rake in money, but whatever the reason, it's pretty clear WotC no longer respects those who they depend on most.

I am sickened, and the rest of you should be too.  Perhaps if there is a sufficient outcry they might undo this monstrous mistake. 

[urweak]

At this point, why even follow what the DCI says, most of the tourniments we play at are proxy events, we might aswell make our own B/R list. That way we could dump all the pointless cards like dream halls and such, and fix the huge mistake that this update is. I think as a community we can come together and make our own decissions, its clear that the DCI has no understanding of the format anymore, so why rely on them to tell us what to do.

I think themanadrain.com should create their own B/R list.

[RThomas]

By destroying Vintage as we know it, and topping the top-tier decks, more Vintage players will move on to other formats (ones that actually encourage purchasing new cards), and those that stay will have a format that is less stable and more dependent on the cards that new formats bring (thus increasing spending on future sets again).

I cannot believe how monumentally shortsighted this comment is.  If you really think that this announcement is to move a nominal amount of players into another format solely for profit, then you need to rethink yourself.  The pool of regular Type 1 players that do not ever buy new product is likely very small compared to other similar demographics.  Like, single digit % small.  The player base of Type 1 is not large enough to force a game-changing marketing decision by WOTC.

This is completely ridiculous, in reference to those of you who think this is the worst thing that ever happened in the universe.  So you have to actually think about what's going to happen next.  It has been a while since I was a regular in Magic, but I believe that this happens in other formats.  It is called "change".  Perhaps you should give up your complacency for once and try to think up a new deck yourself, instead of waiting for the next Stephen Menendian article to tell you which one you should be playing.  Stop crying and innovate something yourself.

[Di]

I think themanadrain.com should creature their own B/R list.

Let's make it a 2/2. I liek bears.

Yeah, let's have posts with some content in them please.  The rules aren't there for our health (except maybe to keep our blood pressure down).
-Klep

[Zieby]

First reaction is: WoW WTF.

Then after reading the 3 pages of reactions from the community i think; This could be really fun.

This makes Vintage to a complete new format and the people need to think about how to make a deck again, i think this is really good.
I Hope that WotC does this in cycles so the format needs adjustment every half year. That would be really fun and stimmulate innovators all over the world. I'm looking forward to my Tournament on June 29. The first tournament in holland after the new B/R list got active.

Greetz Arjan

[bluemage55]

I cannot believe how monumentally shortsighted this comment is.  If you really think that this announcement is to move a nominal amount of players into another format solely for profit, then you need to rethink yourself.  The pool of regular Type 1 players that do not ever buy new product is likely very small compared to other similar demographics.  Like, single digit % small.  The player base of Type 1 is not large enough to force a game-changing marketing decision by WOTC. 

There are enough Vintage players to support large events throughout the world. 

It's also been established that Vintage players tend to be older and have greater disposable income than the children who play t2.

[Marske]

As with everybody here my first reaction was WOW !! WTF !!

The only mistake I think the DCI is making is restricting Brainstrom AND Ponder. I'm very curious about how Vintage is going to be after this new change....

[Concentration]

I'm elated.  It almost makes me think someone at Wizards actually read the emails I've fired off when they've sought player input on the format.

All of the reasons trotted out for non-blue decks being unacceptable -- boring, not enough playskill, not interactive enough, too ready made, whatever -- are exceedingly disingenuous.    

Blue has had an absolute stangelhold on the format for far too long -- not so long ago the attack phase was the butt of jokes -- remember that?  It was well past time for something different and more interesting, a fact that this BR update dramatically emphasizes.  

How people lobbying for the continued domination of blue can call any other strategy boring is beyond absurd.  You do realize that most players at a tournament DO NOT LIKE 50 MINUTES GAMES and rounds that are prolonged because egotistical control players have gone into extra turns.  

Worse yet is the hypocrisy.  When Ponder, a card that is clearly not overpowered, gets restricted in the interest of a more enjoyable format it is met with incredulity and hostility.  Yet when Trinisphere, a card that is clearly not overpowered, was restricted it was met with much positive fanfare and appreciative reaction.  Trinisphere's greatest "crime" seemed to be that blue players whined that it was "unfair" to their strategy.  The tables are certainly turned, aren't they?

My personal hope is this move vitalizes the format with an influx of players that aren't so wedded to the extremely boring and played out strategies that have defined Vintage for far, far too long (ie the color blue).  There is a ton of untapped innovation out there, and for once it feels like the playing field is level for everyone

[RThomas]

There are enough Vintage players to support large events throughout the world. 

It's also been established that Vintage players tend to be older and have greater disposable income than the children who play t2.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.  For every player who plays Type 1 only, how many constructed and limited players are you going to find?  I'm not sure, but the ratio would probably be 1:very big.

[VAPOR]

There are enough Vintage players to support large events throughout the world. 

It's also been established that Vintage players tend to be older and have greater disposable income than the children who play t2.

Hmm yeah, or 20 year old college students with barely enough disposable income to invest in a single deck, Flash(yep i picked wrong..., 400+ dollars down the drain), while watching as the 9sphere stax deck that he also could have purchased is currently kicking him in the balls. I saved up for a fucking year to break into vintage teir 1 magic, and what do i get? a swift kick in the nuts.

Now i cant even seel my cards to buy a new 9sphere package as the secondary market for those cards is going to rise incredible high.

[wraith985]

Worse yet is the hypocrisy.  When Ponder, a card that is clearly not overpowered, gets restricted in the interest of a more enjoyable format it is met with incredulity and hostility.  Yet when Trinisphere, a card that is clearly not overpowered, was restricted it was met with much positive fanfare and appreciative reaction.  Trinisphere's greatest "crime" seemed to be that blue players whined that it was "unfair" to their strategy.  The tables are certainly turned, aren't they?

You clearly haven't been paying much attention, because a lot of people have stated their desire for Trinisphere to come off the B/R list because the "unfun" rationale given wasn't enough and everyone knows it.

[Shock Wave]

Worse yet is the hypocrisy.  When Ponder, a card that is clearly not overpowered, gets restricted in the interest of a more enjoyable format it is met with incredulity and hostility.  Yet when Trinisphere, a card that is clearly not overpowered, was restricted it was met with much positive fanfare and appreciative reaction.  Trinisphere's greatest "crime" seemed to be that blue players whined that it was "unfair" to their strategy.  The tables are certainly turned, aren't they?

You clearly haven't been paying much attention, because a lot of people have stated their desire for Trinisphere to come off the B/R list because the "unfun" rationale given wasn't enough and everyone knows it.

I, for one, am elated that Trinisphere stayed where I feel it belongs and I'm sure many others agree. While I feel that blue has been overpowered for a long time and received a well deserved reduction in strength, I don't think that has any bearing on whether or not Trinisphere should come back. The goal for Vintage is to keep innovation and play skill at a premium, and it's possible this decision will create an environment that encourages those elements of the game. If not, we can always lobby for changes to be made in the future.

The "unfun" rationale that you feel is irrelevant is clearly important from the perspective of the DCI. Let's see how they explain their decisions on Friday.

[Nydaeli]

This is a lot like the Affinity bannings in Type 2 from a few years ago.  Instead of axing one or two of the problem cards, the DCI opted to take the ultimate heavy-handed approach and obliterate every strategy remotely resembling the supposedly overpowered ones.

I'm worried about its effect on the consistency of the format, though.  Brainstorm (and to a lesser extent Ponder) allowed players to effectively harness the format's signature restricted bombs; without effective card filtering, the format is likely to become much more unpredictable.

[bluemage55]

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.  For every player who plays Type 1 only, how many constructed and limited players are you going to find?  I'm not sure, but the ratio would probably be 1:very big.

It certainly does. 

The fact that T1 players represent a smaller amount of the market doesn't mean anything.  Squeezing more money out of us is still a good business decision.

[arctic79]

@ Concentration Cramp

Seriously do you think blue based decks were that uninteractive?  I think of Shop and Ichorid as two of the most noninteractive decks in the format followed by Landstill.  
What's more fun then racing an opponent for the win with some chance of an answer? Or would you rather sit there tapping & sacking all your permanents to tanglewire or stack with no chance.
Innovation will be crucial in the next while.
By the way I bet LotV is going to shoot up even more in value now.

[credmond]

I basically agree with what Shockwave has been saying.

I don't understand why ponder was restricted. If it was an instant then I could see it as restriction worthy.

I do agree with the other restrictions. I especially agree with brainstorm and merchant scroll. In practice those were unrestricted draw 3s and tutors on par with ancestral and demonic tutor. I think people have gotten so used to the blue dominance of vintage and playing with certain favorite cards that they are overlooking the actual power level of the cards in question. I have long considered brainstorm and merchant scroll to be the "broken" unrestricted cards and there being an unstated favoritism towards blue or certain kinds of decks to keep them untethered. Just the fact that everyone is up in arms over brainstorm is testimony to its power in vintage (unrestricted ancestral whenever there is a shuffling effect). Its like brainstorm was the secret "broken" card that you didn't want people to catch on to so that those that mastered its intricacies could benefit from its brokenness being kept secret. Well, even though it rewarded good players and encouraged skill, the power level of brainstorm is still unmistakenably "broken".

So for all of you deeply upset about brainstorm are you really going to honestly say that that card isn't broken.

With the restriction of brainstorm and merchant scroll then flash and gush might have been able to stick around. But really those are pretty damn broken too. Flash is like an unrestricted tinker except it kills you right then and there. And gush combined with fastbond makes your deck into necropotence.

I think knocking down blue a few healthy notches can only be good for the format. The R/G beats deck, the goblines deck, and the dawn of the dead deck have all gotten big boosts to their viabilty and playability with this announcement.

Also these kinds of restrictions are great for shaking these things up so that the really good vintage deck designers can race to see what will shape up to be new tier 1 decks. If you think Ichorid and Stax are suddenly tier 1 then think again. Goblines would own a field of Stax and Ichorid.

At any rate, I look forward to a vintage future with a lot more non-blue variety. Don't get me wrong I love blue and gushbond combo but I love and play a lot of the different archetypes out there and I will be glad to see them on a more level playing field.

And let's be honest here, blue will still be dominant with its thirst for knowledge and intuition/AK engines, but only less so. Its really just that the distance between blue and non-blue will be narrowed.

 

[Shock Wave]

Seriously I think of Shop and Ichorid as two of the most noninteractive decks in the format followed by Landstill. 

Landstill is "non-interactive" ...!? If a deck that plays almost entirely reactive spells is not interactive to you, then I think you need to reevaluate your definition of interactivity. Landstill is as interactive as any blue-based deck, if not the most interactive of all them. It encourages a high-level of decision making, places a high premium on the attack step, requires very high attention to life totals, requires an understanding of when to play the appropriate role as a pilot, and wins extremely small. It rewards players that play very tightly and punishes poor players more than any other deck because it simply does not have any broken spells to resolve that can overshadow a glaringly play mistake on behalf of the pilot. I fail to see how that would qualify it as a non-interactive deck.

[Akuma]

This announcement is absolute GARBAGE.

I have been playing Vintage for over 10 years and this is truly a day I never thought I would to see. Whoever is responsible for this at WotC either doesn't play Vintage or had some sort of agenda. I thank them for ruining the format. Certain things are in the realm of acceptable and could be argued either way (Gush, Flash, Merchant Scroll), but Brainstorm and PONDER are ridiculous. And to do it all at once is even worse.

Thanks for a moronic rotation, why don't we rotate the power 9 out because they cause too much of a swing on games. I don't really have much to say, at this point I am just angry about what has transpired here. I hope that there are enough people who are just as upset about this that something ends up being done down the road...

I currently play Vintage and Legacy, this kind of thing makes me want to drop Vintage altogether 

[arctic79]

Shock Wave I agree with you, I was off on the assertation that landstill is noninteractive.  I'm just biased against it and let that cloud my judgement (I really hate that deck).  I know how to combat it and yes it does make me think when playing against it, ussually it sprains my brain.
My apoligies.

[playkenny]

This is pretty dissapointing. I just played in a Vintage tournament today and I really felt like the biggest edge I had in the blue mirrors was the proper usage of Brainstorm. Timing the card, playing it right, and really maximizing its value are so integral to winning that restricting it really seems like it takes a lot of the skill that we know and love out of Vintage.

So agree.

Majorly heart broken. I really didn't mind seeing gush, flash, scroll go (it was coming), but brainstorm, thats the key. Brainstorm is such a subtlely rewarding card when played right, not just in conjunction with fetches. Honestly heartbroken, and feel lost. I can pretty much scrap 80% of my decks.

[itsabank]

The problem I have with this set of restrictions is the justification for the restrictions.  The way I see it as having been thought through is something like:

Flash: instant speed 2-mana combo card, discourages interactivity, etc
Gush: present in many of the most successful decks, undoing the mistake of previous unrestriction
Merchant Scroll: present in many top tier decks, tutor
Brainstorm: Used in just about every top archetype that uses blue
Ponder:  has an effect similar to brainstorm, could possibly replace brainstorm

Though I understand the argument for restricting the first three, its the restriction of Brainstorm and Ponder, as well as what I think to be the reasoning behind it, that I have a problem with.  If Brainstorm was restricted because of its presence in many top decks, or because it is a staple in such decks, that means that they could, in the future, restrict other staple cards that are considered "essential" in certain types of decks using this restriction as a precedent(and in particular, present as a 4-of most often).  How long will it be before they've restricted Ritual, Bazaar, and Workshop using this reasoning? 

Its going to be interesting to see how Vintage ends up after this.  By hurting several of the archetypes that have been dominant recently, it seems as though a regression to a couple of years back is inevitable, though blue will still be hurting.  Given the effect on combo (in particular the decks using Gush), it wouldn't surprise me if control made a comeback.  The level of regression is the real question here:  what will be viable nowadays?  Mono-U control?  3-color control even? 

For right now, however, we can examine what is left.  Workshop decks will likely be running rampant in the near future, as will Ichorid.  The only combo deck that I can think of that is unaffected by this is Belcher, so that may gain popularity.  Oath will likely still be around, as will Fish.  Some weakened form of Long may emerge as well, and decks like R/G Beatz are unaffected.

I, for one, am interested to see how this all turns out.  Though I haven't posted here before, I have been into Vintage magic for quite some time.  Though this certainly does spell the end of an era for Vintage magic, I am not about to quit.  I think that, though the format may become weaker in general with the loss of Brainstorm, that it will likely become more diverse as more decks emerge to fill the gaps left by the ones leaving the format.  It should be quite an adventure.

On a related note, could they just unrestrict Dream halls already?  With the inevitable slowing down of the format that this set of restrictions will bring, it just may be of some use...