Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Scroll, and Ponder Restricted

[prosbloom225]

Im pretty sure this has been brought up in the past, but, we're not playing sanctioned tourneys for the most part.  Why not just ignore the changes?

[itsabank]

Im pretty sure this has been brought up in the past, but, we're not playing sanctioned tourneys for the most part.  Why not just ignore the changes?

I think that it would likely be difficult to get a B/R list that everyone could agree upon.  That's why the official list is so good for us; if we don't like it, we can't do anything to change it.

Give the community the power to alter the list, and it could cause trouble...

[prosbloom225]

Some changes wizards makes make sense, and others don't, but this is a new level.  Instead of bringing a deck in and taking one out like they usually do, this is a complete rotation of the format.  This affects just about every deck out there that runs these cards, neutering some, and killing others.  This is different from every other restrict/ban they have ever done.  Instead of banning a problem card, they are banning cards that are good.  Minus flash, none of the other cards are specific to one deck but rather to the format as a whole.  The real problem is that the format is in a good position right now, there are many viable decks and its fairly enjoyable.  With these changes you kill off a good 50% of decks out there and severely limit another 25%.  All this does is limits the decks people can play/make.

Vintage is supposed to be an open format where you have a giant cardpool, of course some cards are going to become staples for being the "best", but thats just part of the game.  It happens every rotation in standard.  Vintage isn't supposed to be like that.  What are they going to do next, in a few years ban the crop of staple cards and reset the format again.  Granted this is a new thing, but it opens the door to a format I don't want to live in.  Ban cards for being broken, don't ban them because they are balanced, but good. 

[Almighty]

Landstill is "non-interactive" ...!? If a deck that plays almost entirely reactive spells is not interactive to you, then I think you need to reevaluate your definition of interactivity. Landstill is as interactive as any blue-based deck, if not the most interactive of all them. It encourages a high-level of decision making, places a high premium on the attack step, requires very high attention to life totals, requires an understanding of when to play the appropriate role as a pilot, and wins extremely small. It rewards players that play very tightly and punishes poor players more than any other deck because it simply does not have any broken spells to resolve that can overshadow a glaringly play mistake on behalf of the pilot. I fail to see how that would qualify it as a non-interactive deck.

Put in to proper context, this is the way I felt about aggro decks in vintage during the previous cycle. The reason why aggro decks were having such a hard time doing well is because of the same reasons pure control decks like landstill. Built and played properly, they forced the broken decks to interact and find answers. They forced broken decks like Gat to play the win small game, which is in my opinion, when magic is at its finest. Not to sound cocky, but I have been having lots of success with TMWA having lost mainly to Flash or players more talented than myself. Done right, everything else can be taken down.

What do i predict is going to happen? The golden age of every format. Control beats combo, Aggro beats control, Combo beats aggro. But all are susceptible to raw skill and the intimate famililiarity some players have with their pet decks. Prison and Ichorid fit in there somehow, but I am confident that they will be stifled by appropriate foils in due time.

It's too bad that many decks were nerfed because of this. It's great because so many new decks are viable. Welcome back attack phase! Welcome back pure control strategies!

When certain players consistently do well with relatively underutilized strategies, yet those strategies are still dismissed as jank, I feel the fault is with the average player parroting that rhetoric. Unfortunately for those nay-sayers, they have no choice but to deal with those oft maligned and dismissed "jank" strategies when they rear their head as the rewardingly good skill intensive decks they are now that people are forced to recognize new things.

Welcome to the land of innovation. We'll see who the best are out there soon enough.

[itsabank]

Vintage is supposed to be an open format where you have a giant cardpool, of course some cards are going to become staples for being the "best", but thats just part of the game.  It happens every rotation in standard.  Vintage isn't supposed to be like that.  What are they going to do next, in a few years ban the crop of staple cards and reset the format again.  Granted this is a new thing, but it opens the door to a format I don't want to live in.  Ban cards for being broken, don't ban them because they are balanced, but good. 

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement; I am not happy with the reasoning behind the restrictions either, and I also fear for the future of the format.  However, as much as I may disagree with the restrictions themselves, the result that they will have is something that I am looking forward to.  I think that the loss of a staple card such as Brainstorm, unfair as it may be, will spur on some serious innovation, and may end up spawning new and interesting decks that wouldn't have been considered otherwise (given the power of the pre-restriction decks).  This should also slow the format down quite a bit, which I also think is a good thing. 

I can only hope that Wizards doesn't continue on in this way with future restrictions, but I am not too broken up about the newness of the format that we are about to experience.

[fromm2020]

As with everybody here my first reaction was WOW !! WTF !!

The only mistake I think the DCI is making is restricting Brainstrom AND Ponder. I'm very curious about how Vintage is going to be after this new change....

Brainstorm was restricted because they felt they could slow the format down by doing so, ponder was unnecessary. The main issue with the new B/R is that by cutting Brainstorm they slowed mainly blue combo while leaving ichorid and shop decks at the same pace.

[Jo84]

I am really sad as I was pretty happy with the metagame of yesterday. Furthermore they just restricted but didn´t give us anything back, so the format might shrink. It will take some time for me to get over this. Blue loses a lot of its power, so maybe other decks will be more viable but on the other hand there are non-blue decks that were able to compete.
Seems like they will dominate until septembre when Ichorid and Shops are going to be destroyed!

[prosbloom225]

I will die a little bit inside every time i see 4brainstorm/4ponder in legacy/extended and know that the vintage that has been worked on and balanced for so many years is dead.

[prosbloom225]

As with everybody here my first reaction was WOW !! WTF !!

The only mistake I think the DCI is making is restricting Brainstrom AND Ponder. I'm very curious about how Vintage is going to be after this new change....

Brainstorm was restricted because they felt they could slow the format down by doing so, ponder was unnecessary. The main issue with the new B/R is that by cutting Brainstorm they slowed mainly blue combo while leaving ichorid and shop decks at the same pace.

By doing this, they also nerfed the hell out of force of will.  So this could potentially speed up the format, with no way to stop decks like belcher.

[Grand Inquisitor]

WTF!, End of the World!, Bastard Hasbro Theives!, Comic Opera?, democratic republic of my own BR list...

This is like the berserk thread on steroids.  And for those without the institutional memory, it was 2002 when brainstorm became widely played, not 2004.  Everyone can appreciate the significance of the magnitude of this change.  However, I think very few people actually understand what this means in terms of the future metagame and how it will affect the enjoyability of T1.

My guess is that the rock, paper, scissors dynamic will become more prominent (instead of bestblueengine.dec being the obvious choice) and broaden to include more decks, and that things we used to fight over on turn 0-2 will now happen turns 3-5.

As for those who clamor about lost value of cards or making our own B/R for the format, look at the archives folders for past examples of this exact thread and realize for better or worse, at a micro level, it's much better at a macro level for this community not to make these kinds of decisions.

Oh yeah, and go-go Sensei, Sensei!

[forests failed you]

The restrictions are fantastic.  The format is on the verge of being playable again.  Just a few more cards to go and things will be perfect...

[Stamford]

Three Words

What The F***?

This is goddamn stupid.

The whole Vintage relies on Brainstorm.
You can restrict Gush, you can restrict Flash, you can even restrict Merchant Scroll.

BUT BRAINSTORM IS LIKE THE FREAKING BASIS OF VINTAGE.

Force of Will could be supported by 16 blue cards because of Brainstorm. Mana Bases can have 10-16 lands because of Brainstorm.
The incredible synergy of Brainstorm and Fetchlands is what makes Vintage so streamlined.

They are taking away the fun out of Vintage. Vintage is a format for thrill-seekers, playing the most powerful spells and lands in Magic. Brainstorm helps smooth decks, manabases and basically everything else. They provide so much choices and rewards the most skillful players. Now, they are restricting Brainstorm? A card that actually helps differentiate skilled and experienced players from the rest?

Also, what will the collectors do? Brainstorm MM Foil is going to drop? Merchant Scroll 8ED Foil is going to drop? Ponder Jap Foil is going to drop?
Never mind the Flash and the Gush, these have been expected. Vintage players will shed a tear over them and move on.
However, BRAINSTORM and PONDER. PONDER is not even half the power of Brainstorm. Its SORCERY, its Sensei Divining Top effect once or optional shuffle.

Who the heck instigated these absurd changes?

So GREAT! Now Vintage is more skill-testing, with everyone playing 1-ofs. Good Job done!

end of ranting.

Since no one will do anything about it, except whine and whine, (unless the Vintage community rises up with a petition to make changes as they deem fit), nothing will happen.

[spoiler]P.S. We all know Vintage players are a very vocal group, let's see what happens.[/spoiler]

[bluemage55]

My guess is that the rock, paper, scissors dynamic will become more prominent (instead of bestblueengine.dec being the obvious choice) and broaden to include more decks, and that things we used to fight over on turn 0-2 will now happen turns 3-5.

Without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll to support Force of Will, the glue that holds the format together, Vintage will get faster, not slower.

What people might forget is that in the times when blue was not dominant, the game was dominated by brutal first-turn plays, whether ritual-based combo or even simply Workshop -> Trinisphere.  Now we can even at Ichorid to that list of speedy death.

Blue has always been the color that encouraged interactivity in Vintage.  Take it away . . . and expect the worst.

[Almighty]

My guess is that the rock, paper, scissors dynamic will become more prominent (instead of bestblueengine.dec being the obvious choice) and broaden to include more decks, and that things we used to fight over on turn 0-2 will now happen turns 3-5.

Without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll to support Force of Will, the glue that holds the format together, Vintage will get faster, not slower.

What people might forget is that in the times when blue was not dominant, the game was dominated by brutal first-turn plays (whether ritual-based combo or even simply Workshop -> 3sphere).

People will figure it out. It's not that hard to come up with a strategy where Force is powerful.

[prosbloom225]

WTF!, End of the World!, Bastard Hasbro Theives!, Comic Opera?, democratic republic of my own BR list...

This is like the berserk thread on steroids.  And for those without the institutional memory, it was 2002 when brainstorm became widely played, not 2004.  Everyone can appreciate the significance of the magnitude of this change.  However, I think very few people actually understand what this means in terms of the future metagame and how it will affect the enjoyability of T1.

My guess is that the rock, paper, scissors dynamic will become more prominent (instead of bestblueengine.dec being the obvious choice) and broaden to include more decks, and that things we used to fight over on turn 0-2 will now happen turns 3-5.

As for those who clamor about lost value of cards or making our own B/R for the format, look at the archives folders for past examples of this exact thread and realize for better or worse, at a micro level, it's much better at a macro level for this community not to make these kinds of decisions.

Oh yeah, and go-go Sensei, Sensei!

As much as I don't like the way 5-color committee system and I believe it would never work for vintage, you've got to give it to them that they would have never went this far.  I don't believe a community b/r list would work any more than the next guy, but these changes change the way vintage will be played.  It's almost as though we just rolled over into a new season of standard.

Wizards starts banning based on staleness of format/power/etc, and its a slippery slope.  We can all assume they won't take it too far, but whose to say.  Being as we apparently have no say in the matters as a community, how far are they willing to go before the community falls apart.  Especially in a format like vintage where the value of cards is so high, having them rotate a stable format for a preference of purpose can drastically change values.  Vintage is known for having a fairly stable economy, if you buy a mox, your going to be able to sell it for what you paid for.  A couple of these "rotation" bannings and thats going to go away.

[bluemage55]

People will figure it out. It's not that hard to come up with a strategy where Force is powerful.

I doubt you can argue against the fact that the format has already taken maximum advantage of FoW.  Any modifications post-Brainstorm/Ponder/MS will be weaker than before, not stronger.

Non-blue combo, on the other hand, has taken no hits.

[bluemage55]

Especially in a format like vintage where the value of cards is so high, having them rotate a stable format for a preference of purpose can drastically change values.  Vintage is known for having a fairly stable economy, if you buy a mox, your going to be able to sell it for what you paid for.  A couple of these "rotation" bannings and thats going to go away.

Which is exactly what I've suggested is the true rationale for these changes.  Make Vintage a rotation format like the others (just slower, like Extended) . . . and you have new profits flowing in.

[Mantis]

Seriously guys, don't you think we can't beat Ichorid and Stax with one deck?

But then again, I can see why a lot of people are very sad about this changes. I personally never played blue but a lot of people derived fun out of figuring out the best plays with Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Ponder and Gifts Ungiven.

For me this might mean returning from Legacy to Vintage again, as new deck ideas can now really shine. I'm just excited.

On another note; which cards do you think will drop and which cards will rise in price?
Obviously Flash will drop and I think Intuition is going to be worth a lot more.

[Almighty]

People will figure it out. It's not that hard to come up with a strategy where Force is powerful.

I doubt you can argue that the format has already taken maximum advantage of FoW.  Any modifications post-Brainstorm/Ponder/MS will be weaker than before, not stronger.

Non-blue combo, on the other hand, has taken no hits.

Anyone who plays variants of a scroll or gush deck is living in the past and likely has a bad deck. The blue decks will just different now. They are still good. You just need to put that into the context that we are now playing a different format.

And I can't recall non blue combo being a strong choice for quite some time. The inconsistency that plagued them by not having a proper draw suite is still present. I predict that it will be just as hard for them to compete, because pure control will return in spades. Drain is coming back, baby.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I honestly can't believe this.  I'm a TMWA and MUD fan, so this affects me in no way at all, but I still can't believe how far the restrictions went.  And what's further unbelieveable is that not a single card was taken OFF this restricted list.  WTH?

Peace,

-Troy

[bluemage55]

Anyone who plays variants of a scroll or gush deck is living in the past and likely has a bad deck. The blue decks will just different now. They are still good. You just need to put that into the context that we are now playing a different format.

I didn't suggest that someone should be playing a variant of a Gush deck. 

I'm suggesting that decks in the present which utilize Gush, Merchant Scroll, Ponder, and/or Brainstorm are far better at utilizing Force of Will than any deck in the future possibly can without those cards.

And I can't recall non blue combo being a strong choice for quite some time. The inconsistency that plagued them by not having a proper draw suite is still present. I predict that it will be just as hard for them to compete, because pure control will return in spades. Drain is coming back, baby.

Does Ichorid ring a bell?  Grim Long?

Drains are going to be worse off, not better.

[Troy_Costisick]

Yes, Ichorid, Shop, and Long are going to be huge now.  So will R/G beats.  I'm still in shock.

There have been 2 cards that have held this format together and kept if from just exploding into madness, and they are Force of Will and Leyline of the Void.  Now, what in the world do you pitch to FoW and one of the decks being held in check by Leyline is toast.  I have no idea what will be coming down the pike.  This is totally uncharted territory.

[Anders Noer]

BUT BRAINSTORM IS LIKE THE FREAKING BASIS OF VINTAGE.

Force of Will could be supported by 16 blue cards because of Brainstorm. Mana Bases can have 10-16 lands because of Brainstorm.
The incredible synergy of Brainstorm and Fetchlands is what makes Vintage so streamlined.

They are taking away the fun out of Vintage. Vintage is a format for thrill-seekers, playing the most powerful spells and lands in Magic. Brainstorm helps smooth decks, manabases and basically everything else. They provide so much choices and rewards the most skillful players. Now, they are restricting Brainstorm?

***edited***

PONDER is not even half the power of Brainstorm. Its SORCERY, its Sensei Divining Top effect once or optional shuffle.

Brainstorm:
I think you quite neatly summed up why Brainstorm had to go, yourself. As you explain, brainstorm just does sooo much good for consistency. Letting you play a smoother land base, giving you pitchable cards to FoW, letting you hide key cards from discard effects, putting accidentily drawn Colossi and Oath-creatures back in your library and letting you go through your deck faster. All this at instant speed and almost for free. Yep, it made vintage streamlined. But maybe a bit too streamlined. Digging 3 cards deep into your deck is a powerfull effect in vintage, as a single card can end the game right there. Which leads on to...

Ponder: This card digs even deeper than Brainstorm. It almost goes as deep as Fact or Fiction (+shuffle), for just U. Ponder also let's you play with a shakier mana base, since you get to manipulate your deck almost freely.

While I do agree that this swing at consistant blue decks is certainly a format-shifting alteration, I can see the motives behind it, and I think it may be alright.
(I would like to have seen an additional blow at Dredge though - a deck that is just as lame as flash, in my book.)

Regarding the "golden age of vintage", I'm not quite sure if i agree, seing top 8s of Hulk, Dredge and [random-gush/bond-engine.dec]. That's not a golden metagame.

As already said a number of times, Workshops and dredge look scary at the moment. Fish variants look interesting too, and blue based control as we know it, seems to have its work cut out to reinvent itself. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

EDIT: A new sligh mage is born!

[shatter]

Wow....

I have nothing else to say besides the fact that i'm shocked as hell about theses changes the DCI made to Vintage!

[BigBarn]

It's pretty clear to me that they axed brainstorm because it was card that would show up in force throughout top8's.  After ancestral recall, the best 1 mana blue card would be...brainstorm?  Ponder just means they're thinking ahead.  All the decks would have just switched to 1 brainstorm, 4 ponders and the format would not have changed that much.

[zeus-online]

Wow This is scary, but awesome!

I don't think long is dead btw...sure it lost some very good cards, but it can still blow people away..

Bye-Bye to all current blue decks!

I think slaver will come back, maybe Hulk Smash will come along and play....and hopefully keeper

It's unfortunate that they didn't hit ichorid though (Something else then Bazaar, please)

All-in-all this is interesting!

Too bad morphling didn't become a good card again

/Zeus

[wraith985]

4 Ponder, 1 Brainstorm is nowhere near the equivalent of 4 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder. They are fundamentally different cards, and Ponder is nowhere near as abusable as Brainstorm was. You could make an argument for Brainstorm being a conditional Ancestral Recall in tandem with a fetch, which arguably makes it too strong to stay; you can't say anywhere close to the same for Ponder.

[kicks_422]

I like it. Deck construction is relevant again. 

[Troy_Costisick]

I like it. Deck construction is relevant again. 

There has never been a time in Vintage when deck construction wasn't relevant.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I would like to see what full crock of bullshit they will serve up to justify this.