How to get brainstorm and ponder back: Post!

[MadManiac21]

Massive public outcry. That's how the DCI made "emergency" restrictions and banning of Mind's Desire a couple of years ago.

So, start here!

DCI, you did an understandable job with gush, flash, and merchant scroll. I could have understood testing one or two of those at a time to see how it shifted the meta/consumer's enjoyment, but all three is quite gutsy.

However you REALLY REALLY REALLY made a HORRIFIC decision with brainstorm and ponder. While the above three neutered blue based decks, you effectively killed them with the last two - mainly brainstorm.

The first three slightly kill variety in the metagame (completely understandable, ala Gifts), whereas brainstorm/ponder effectively removes blue based control from the format, and savagely hurts storm combo. You have HURT the FUN and INTERACTIVE part of the game with these - a reversely from classically trying to preserve those ideals.

Basically, I (and hopefully a few others here) are begging you to immediately unrestrict brainstorm and ponder, while letting us test out how the restrictions of gush, flash, and merchant scroll affect the meta.

Sincerely,

Tournament Organizer and Vintage Player Madmaniac21

[dicemanx]

However you REALLY REALLY REALLY made a HORRIFIC decision with brainstorm and ponder. While the above three neutered blue based decks, you effectively killed them with the last two - mainly brainstorm.

The first three slightly kill variety in the metagame (completely understandable, ala Gifts), whereas brainstorm/ponder effectively removes blue based control from the format, and savagely hurts storm combo. You have HURT the FUN and INTERACTIVE part of the game with these - a reversely from classically trying to preserve those ideals.

You are making some highly emotionally charged, unsubstantiated claims. I think if you want to rally people in support of your proposal, you need to focus on better developing your arguments. I for one don't see a problem - blue is a very deep color with many good options for card search/cycling and card drawing as well as disruption (Mana Drain), and I would anticipate that U-based control will continue to maintain its position at the top of the heap (albeit U-based control will be a little "fairer"). The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise; you therefore might want to postpone this rally until we see precisely what the outcome will be after the restrictions take effect and people return to deck construction and innovation.

[RaleighNCTourneys]

MadManiac21: see my post about a support group. it might help you.

[MadManiac21]

You are making some highly emotionally charged, unsubstantiated claims. I think if you want to rally people in support of your proposal, you need to focus on better developing your arguments. I for one don't see a problem - blue is a very deep color with many good options for card search/cycling and card drawing as well as disruption (Mana Drain), and I would anticipate that U-based control will continue to maintain its position at the top of the heap (albeit U-based control will be a little "fairer"). The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise; you therefore might want to postpone this rally until we see precisely what the outcome will be after the restrictions take effect and people return to deck construction and innovation.

Diceman,

a) The problem is I don't play brainstorms myself - I'm a workshop player at heart, and need people to keep playing brainstorm type stuff to keep stax worthwhile.

b) Yes, blue is a very deep color - but you cannot deny that brainstorm has been THE linchpin of practically every blue based deck since ... ? Having to move from running options A or B to C and/or D when it comes to deck building - while it will cause innovation - undeniably makes weaker decks.

c) The burden of proof is me to prove otherwise that U-based control won't be at the top of the list any longer? I don't need to do that - I just need to prove that restricting brainstorm/ponder was a huge mistake when it comes to the health of vintage/the fun. Proof: NINE pages of outcry in ~48 hours? I don't think I've ever seen that massive a public response that quickly to a restriction whose majority was severely pissed/upset by the choice.


I think the burden is on YOU and the DCI to prove that brainstorm or ponder were worthy of restriction - my proof that they are not is
a) Brainstorm does not distort the format in any way, no deck is forced to maindeck/sideboard answers to BRAINSTORM. It has been around forever and has never been anywhere close to the most powerful card in any format.

b) ponder is a joke, seriously, cmon. GAT and some long-esque decks ran it at best, and neither were dominating.

Obviously mana drain will now return to the format, but that would have happened with just flash/scroll/gush.

[Akuma]

blue is a very deep color with many good options for card search/cycling and card drawing as well as disruption (Mana Drain), and I would anticipate that U-based control will continue to maintain its position at the top of the heap

I agree with this, blue will not die because of this. The problem I have with this round of restrictions is that 2 cards (Brainstorm / Ponder) have been restricted because they are really good and have risen to the top of the format. Seems like once we get the metagame settled in again, we will have another instance cards that will rise to the top of the format, will there be another set of restrictions at this point?

I for one loathe this latest development. There must be someone new at WotC heading the Vintage B/R list. It is really sad because we have been on a steady path since 1999 to a more streamlined B/R List that was comprised of mostly the "real" format powerhouses.

This, of course, is MY OPINION. There are those that like these changes. But those of us who don't would be wise to voice our opinions. For me Vintage is about playing the most powerful strategies to ever grace this game against each other, and for the most part, that is what has been happening for the past 6 or so years.

The only thing that needed to go was MERCHANT SCROLL. I want Vintage to thrive, but I hope this decision damages the player base enough so that WotC reverses this horrible decision. Where did the guy that unrestricted Gush go? Please come back and rid us of these timid B/R list updaters. Vintage will be the new Highlander thanks to these people!

Oh well, at least I still have Legacy...

[Yare]

I feel compelled to point out that Mind's Desire was preemptively restricted; it was restricted before it even saw play. This situation is not similar in the least.

[Zherbus]

How to get brainstorm and ponder back: Post!

Participate in working out the new format, then write intelligent articles and emails showing how bad their decision was, if it really was. Be sure to harp on buzz words and subjects like fun, interactivity, fundamental turn, and diversity if you want to get your point across. If it turns out the format is fine, then be glad 3x Ponder and 3x Brainstorm cost like $2 combined and all 8 are legal in Legacy Thresh.

[Moxlotus]

I don't need to do that - I just need to prove that restricting brainstorm/ponder was a huge mistake when it comes to the health of vintage/the fun. Proof: NINE pages of outcry in ~48 hours? 

You missed Berserk.  That was pretty hilarious too.  And there are a lot of people that are happy with the decision.  Or at the very least taking the "wait and see" approach to avoid chicken little scenarios.  Which happened.

Brainstorm does not distort the format in any 

100% false.  Look at any manabase in decks tha tplayed brainstorm. 

It has been around forever and has never been anywhere close to the most powerful card in any format. 

Wrong.  In fact, Steve just listed Brainstorm as the most powerful card in the format in his article last month. 

I think the burden is on YOU and the DCI to prove that brainstorm or ponder were worthy of restriction 

Being that the deed is already done I don't have to do jack shit in order to get what I want--which is to keep the restrictions.

updaters. Vintage will be the new Highlander thanks to these people!

Yes. Because 2 cards you didn't want to see restricted means that the format is highlander.

b) Yes, blue is a very deep color - but you cannot deny that brainstorm has been THE linchpin of practically every blue based deck 

You say that as if it is a good thing.  Brainstorm let decks skimp on manabases and have a draw engine to boot.  And as you stated, it was played in every blue deck.  And you don't see something wrong with that?  Nothing wrong with a card that lets you skimp on mana, is a draw engine, and is so easily splashable and powerful that any deck that wants to play blue feels obligated by its power to play it?

[Anusien]

This seems like a silly and premature thing to do before hearing the explanation from Devin Low on Friday.  Wait then and see if you agree with the rationale for the decision.

[Outlaw]

The situation I believe arises is that blue based decks typically need turns, typically from 1-3 to set their game plan up.  Without brainstorm or even ponder U based decks fall behind tempo based decks.  card filtering becomes more difficult just without brainstorm / fetch.  Combo sufferers hugely where fish/ichorid and shop will thrive.  The format will become little men beating on artifact man.

[Gexzilla10]

Sorry, I'd prefer seeing Shahrazad unbanned instead.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

shouldn't we see what happens before start trying to undo anything? This change could be the best thing to happen to vintage ever, as long as we're in here, we might as well see if the dci is right.

[Mantis]

Personally I am really excited about the new changes, it opens up such a huge amount of development space and really gives other archetypes a chance, such a Goblins, RG Beats and who knows what else. I'm actually convinced this switch is for the better as not everyone was enjoying Vintage as of late.

Also, I really don't believe Workshop based decks will suffer in any way by the restriction of Brainstorm. You will just need to rethink your approach and make some tweaks here and there. The restriction of Brainstorm just doesn't make Workshop less of a deck and certainly not unplayable, in fact the opposite might actually be true.

[Norm4eva]

What I really dislike about this turn of events is not so much the cure but the symptoms, as it were.
To try and make it simple; budget players will admit that 10 - 15 proxy is just enough to get by in Vintage, and some of the finer tools at the disposal of those same players just got hacked to shit.  The unfortunate fact that all cards are generally better versions of themselves when played in powered decks means that the ease to acquire a card, whether that ease is affected by cost or demand or supply, becomes irrelevant once they're absorbed into the so-called "big shooters" in Eternal formats.  It sort of dissolves the line between "budget deck" and "Tier X" since all the tools are in fact exactly the same in the end.
It's not really a big big deal, I guess, since everyone's looking for more tech now, right?  But the spread is a little further apart now; 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponder could aid in deciding what to dedicate your 15 proxies to - now some of those slots are going to have to be eaten up by draw spells beyond Ancestral (depending of course on what your immediate supply constitutes).  AK's are pretty cheap, I guess :/  I dunno I'm just thinking aloud now.  But as I see it, this decision definitely impacts budget guys in a big way.