The Mountains Win Again!

[TheOrangePet]

Nice to see root maze, will help this deck a lot. How is the storm entity working out? I image this deck empty hand pretty soon so he would only be good at some momentum. (in theory)

Seems like any hand w/out entity empties itself in 3-4 turns. A hand w/entity and enablers is almost always empty on turn 2. This is always good though, as it means you had a combination of power, spirit guides, land grants or chalices.

At times it seems so weak I want to vomit, but then again, its impossible to interpret the impact of ehalice/maze w/out real testing. Its interesting really. The grants free up your manabase so you can run the wastrip package while at the same time increasing the threat level of entity.

[Guli]

Nice to see root maze, will help this deck a lot. How is the storm entity working out? I image this deck empty hand pretty soon so he would only be good at some momentum. (in theory)

Seems like any hand w/out entity empties itself in 3-4 turns. A hand w/entity and enablers is almost always empty on turn 2. This is always good though, as it means you had a combination of power, spirit guides, land grants or chalices.

At times it seems so weak I want to vomit, but then again, its impossible to interpret the impact of ehalice/maze w/out real testing. Its interesting really. The grants free up your manabase so you can run the wastrip package while at the same time increasing the threat level of entity.

Garruk Wildspeaker is interesting in this kind of decks. You can play around your root maze, meaning you can waste/strip at normal speed. With life from the loam this can create a soft lock.

[TheOrangePet]

Agreed, but not really pertinent to this particular build. Garruk is really too clunky to fit.

[smasher]

Hi all, long time reader and figured it was about time to share the list ive been working on.

A few things about my card choices
Jotun grunt I really like as he comes down turn 2 and is able to trade with a juggernaut as well as the defense against grindstone making them search out a tormods prior to comboing. If im not facing either of those decks Playing it turn 3 is usually fine to keep him alive til they are dead.

3 kataki 2 gorilla shaman 4 null rod 3 wasteland 1 strip,  a nice mana denial package. lately ive been considering cutting down on 1 of the katakis since ethersworn canonist entered the list and paying mana to keep one of my threats alive can be annoying. not sure what i would add for -1 kataki although im leaning towards another creature. maybe a 3rd mox monkey, or 1x mirror entity. yawg will or hide/seek are a couple cards ive wanted maindeck as well that could go here.

4 ethersworn canonist has been working out well, I like to see him early and in testing I hear from my opponents that he is a real headache. nice to stop EOT draw spells if they want to counter something of mine among other things.

REB maindeck has been great considering almost every opponent is packing blue spells and 1 mana tezzeret removal is something that the deck needed as well.

The mana base has been good to me 12 black, 11 red and white sources not counting lotus petal/black lotus. 1 of each basic has been great in dealing with wastelands and workshop decks.

Decklist

creatures

4 dark confidant
3 jotun grunt
3 kataki
4 ethersworn canonist
2 gorilla shaman

spells

4 null rod
4 red elemental blast
3 swords to plowshares
4 duress
2 thoughtseize
1 extirpate
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 balance

mana base

2 scrubland
2 badlands
1 plateau
1 mountain
1 plains
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
2 windswept heath
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
1 mox ruby, pearl, and jet

The sideboard needs some work and is part of the reason im posting, I get to playtest often but only play against a couple different decks.
The meta I play in is small and somewhat predictable mostly decks packing blue such as painter builds, tezzert vault combo, tendrils, oath, slaver variants. and sometimes a dredge deck and an aggro workshop deck or 2. Randomly some other fish decks or aggro builds show up so the side will have a few slots to help that match. The maindeck feels strong against several of the tier1 decks.

So far I was thinking
4 leyline of the void
2 extirpate
3 umezawas jitte unless someone has a better answer for rogue/fish/aggro decks
1 swords to plowshare
2 hide/seek
3 something to deal with workshop, maybe shattering spree since it will get around chalice. are viashino heretic too slow here? maybe another gorilla shaman?

One other question is yawgmoths will worth running? Ive had it in and out of the list. Its so dead early on and grunts can eat my yard. I've been giving it a lot of thought again recently as a mid to late game bomb to tutor up.

Thanks for looking any suggestions are welcome.

[Myriad Games]

That red / green build from Blue Bell looks awesome - like a R/G version of the B/R version of Mountains I took to Vintage Champs 2007, emptying out a hand as quickly as possible.

I find myself more and more enticed by Pithing Needle of late, as opposed to or in conjunction with Null Rod. It seems like a better solution in the board vs. Ichorid since it's more reliable and more widely useful in other matchups.

I don't like Kataki right now, especially in combination with Canonist. And no, Yawgmoth's Will is not worth running.

Canonist protected by REB is always awesome and Jotun Grunt seems like it could be good, but I don't think it's good enough right now unless you run into a bunch of Grindstones.

We've seen an increase in fishy decks, which is always a good sign for TMWA, so never forget the fundamentals - lots of creatures, lots of dual purpose cards for card flexibility, and a heavy dose of fun!

[Soon-Man]

That red / green build from Blue Bell looks awesome - like a R/G version of the B/R version of Mountains I took to Vintage Champs 2007, emptying out a hand as quickly as possible.

Just for reference, here is the RG list from Blue Bell.

Brian LeGrow - Dog Shit Deluxe (R/G Beats)

4 x Tin Street Hooligan
4 x Storm Entity
4 x Kird Ape
2 x Gorilla Shaman
4 x Mogg Fanatic
4 x Lightning Bolt
2 x Shrapnel Blast
2 x Lava Dart
4 x Root Maze
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Land Grant
2 x Elvish Spirit Guide
4 x Simian Spirit Guide
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Emerald
1 x Lotus Petal
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Forest
4 x Wasteland
2 x Great Furnace
4 x Taiga

Side Board

3 x Pyrokinesis
3 x Pyroblast
3 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Price of Progress
3 x Ancient Grudge

This is an interesting list. It traded off the more controlling aspects of RG; Magus of the Moon, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Thorn of Amethyst for Kird Ape, Root Maze, Storm Entity and Land Grant. Not that it hasn't been done similarly before, but not even running Goyf seems weird. It kinda reminds me of Boros Deck wins. Weenie beats and then burn out. I can't really comment too much, having never played this particular variant of TMWA, but if it works then it works.

[thecorrupter]

This reminds me of the time Adrian Sullivan said that everyone on the whole internet, including all the Magicthegathering.com and Starcitygames.com writers, were wrong and the Orzhov decks (HiH and friends, not Ghost Husk) were not actually aggro-control decks.  Apparently some time in the Clinton administration, someone decided to call the CounterSliver strategy (use countermagic as Time Walks by making your opponents waste turns without resolving things and ride efficiently costed creatures cheap enough not to interfere with the countermagic to victory just before the opponent's game ramps up out of your underpowered control) "aggro-control," and everyone who thinks aggro-control can ever describe anything else, such as a deck with discard, lock parts, removal, etc. instead of permission, is a noob in need of a history lesson.  In short, it may be an accurate claim according to some rubric but it comes across as somewhat pompous, doesn't really help people play Magic better

No, not a noob.  Just someone who is hurting their game.

An easy way to show this, by way of example:

Playing in a tournament, you play against an opponent you don't know who has a new deck that is apparently good.  Your friend played against her earlier in the tournament and tells you that your opponent is playing "a control deck".  As you look at your opening hand, you decide to mulligan it because it can't win a long game and is too packed with creature elim, but has no pressure of any kind.  You find out as the game begins, though, that they are actually playing a beatdown deck and your hand would have been great.

The thing is, operationally, the closest to the opposite of a Midrange deck (like Rock, for example) that you can get is Aggro-Control (like U/G Madness).  It won't matter if you are using the wrong terminology if the only people using it are using the same wrong terminology.  But, they aren't.  Mike Flores, Pat Chapin, Richard Feldman, Zac Hill, and others all use the term properly.  If you get sloppy with something like this, you are robbing yourself of access to not only valuable work that might be written, but also to understanding work that is already out there.  All the time, it becomes valuable to look to the past when you are trying to solve the future.  Misunderstanding something so fundamentally can force you to have to reinvent the wheel.  Part of the reason that articles/terms/ideas from the past are important is that we don't have to keep reinventing and reinventing the wheel.

Deck names can matter for purposes of sharing information rapidly ("Lauerpotence" or "SS" or "Manaless Ichorid" all communicate 60 to 75 cards to someone in the know).  Ultimately, though, the sphere of these names is fairly small, and variance from "canonized" versions of these lists is a real possibility in a tournament.  On the other hand, mistakes on categorizing the Strategic Archetype are much more fundamental and can really cause you to lose games.

It's not a history lesson.  It's actively building up your understanding of strategy in the increasingly competitive world of a very complex game.

- Adrian Sullivan

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I split for first in an 18 man tournament this past weekend at Something 2 Do Louisville.  Here’s my list:

Creatures 
4   Greater Gargadon 
4   Magus of the Moon   
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Vexing Shusher   
2   Viashino Heretic   

Enchantments 
1   Blood Moon

Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus
4   Chalice of the Void
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet     
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
2   Pithing Needle
1   Sol Ring 
4   Sphere of Resistance
2   Sword of Fire and Ice
4   Thorn of Amethyst   
1   Trinisphere 

Lands 
3   Ancient Tomb
11  Mountain
1   Tolarian Academy
   
Sideboard     (15 cards) 
4   Dead/Gone   
2   Pyroblast
3   Red Elemental Blast
2   Martyr of Ashes
4   Relic of Progenitus

My matchups were Oath, 2 Shops, and a Tez deck.  They only play 3 rounds of swiss and the store closed before we could finish the final game.  My overall record was 8-2 and breaks down as follows:

Vs. Oath: 2-0
Vs. Shop 4-1
Vs. Tez 2-1

I would have played a Fish deck in the finals if we had time.  My matchup vs. Fish is somewhat favorable, but the pilot of that deck (John A.) is a terrific player and well experienced with Fish-type decks.  Anyway, if I get a chance later today to talk more about my matchups I will.  The Tez matchup was particularly entertaining.  Hopefully, Schonkreuz will get a chance to report all the deck lists from that night over in the S2D weekly thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36863.0

Feedback is most certainly welcome.  I feel I have a lot of trouble designing the mana base for my decks.  If you have any thoughts on that especially, I would really appreciate it   Thanks guys, and that’s one more for the Mountains!

Peace,

-Troy

[TopSecret]

This list looks really cool!

My only complaint is the lack of answers to an early Tinker outside of the two Heretics,
which understandable as a calculated risk.
Has this been an issue?

Have you considered putting Rise of the Hobgoblins in the sideboard for the Fish matchup?

It does get hit by Stifle, but I'm assuming the fish player will sideboard those out.
On paper, it seems like an absolute beating to me,
since you can sink all your excess mana into it to create an army while feeding Gargadon.
Worst case, if Null Rod is constricting your mana, it still gives all your creatures first strike,
which is notable.

[Troy_Costisick]

My only complaint is the lack of answers to an early Tinker outside of the two Heretics,
which understandable as a calculated risk.
Has this been an issue?

Tinker-Colossus is always an issue- for everyone.  Thankfully, not every blue deck has it main (although they should).  However, your statement about my deck isn't entirely accurate when you look at what the deck really does.  The 9Spheres and Magus of the Moon should be considered anti-Tinker cards since they delay the casting of Tinker and alow me to play more threats.  Chalice of the Void can be seen as an anti-Tinker card as well since it counters the Moxen most commonly used at Tinkerfodder to power out the DSC.  It's true that none of those are answers for a DSC that is already in play but how many decks can boast of more than 2 cards in the main that can deal with that situation anyway?

Have you considered putting Rise of the Hobgoblins in the sideboard for the Fish matchup?

No, I haven't really.  What experience do you have with it?  It seems really mana intensive and more aggro-centric while my build is more control-centric.  Comming out of the sideboard, 5 red blasts, 4 Dead/Gone, and 2 Martyrs usually does the trick vs. Fish.

Peace,

-Troy

[Wagner]

Hello all, just wanted to post my new Dreambreaker list which won a Sapphire in 31 player non-proxy tournament.

2 Thoughtseize
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
3 Badland
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Demonic tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Snuff Out
1 Jothun Grunt
4 Magnus of the Moon
4 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Aven Mindsencor
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nezumi Shortfang (I wanted to try him for a while, wasn't that good)
2 Pyroblast
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Phyrexian Negator
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hide/Seek

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
1 Yixlid Jailer
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Planard Void
1 Ronom Unicorn
2 Kami of Ancient Law


Appart from the Nezumi, I believe the decklist is pretty solid, even with what look like to be random 1 of. Sideboard could be improved a little though.

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations on your victories, Troy and Wagner.

The Mountains Win Again!

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I’ve finally got enough time to talk about my matches.  Just for reference, here’s my list again:

Creatures 
4   Greater Gargadon 
4   Magus of the Moon   
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Vexing Shusher   
2   Viashino Heretic   

Enchantments 
1   Blood Moon

Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus
4   Chalice of the Void
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet     
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
2   Pithing Needle
1   Sol Ring 
4   Sphere of Resistance
2   Sword of Fire and Ice
4   Thorn of Amethyst   
1   Trinisphere 

Lands 
3   Ancient Tomb
11  Mountain
1   Tolarian Academy
   
Sideboard     (15 cards) 
4   Dead/Gone   
2   Pyroblast
3   Red Elemental Blast
2   Martyr of Ashes
4   Relic of Progenitus

Okay, match 1: Will with Oath

Will made the top 4 the previous three weeks and definitely has superior play skills compared to me.  I knew he was playing some sort of Mana Drain deck, but wasn’t sure if it was Oath or Tez or something else.  As I recall, I opened game 1 with a Chalice for Zero and a Pithing Needle set for Polluted Delta.  A turn or two later I followed that up with a Magus of the Moon followed by a SoFI and won the game with weenies.  I had a great opening hand and my disruptive permanents made it hard for him to cast Oath, so I won before he ever got out his win condition.

Game two he opens with Polluted Delta and a Mox.  I open by suspending a Greater Gargadon.  He gets his Orchard and Oath out in the next turn or two and I suspend a second GG.  Then it’s just a waiting game where he gives me tokens and I sac them to my GGs.  We slowly build up lands and permanents in play and he uses a scroll rack to fill his entire hand with counterspells.  The game hinges on turn  8 I think where I drop two Vexing Shushers then sac off all my lands and artifacts to play both my Gargadons.  He tries to FoW them both, losing 2 life in the process, but thanks to a ton of red mana in my pool and two Shushers on the table, I get them through all his counter magic.  I win the game that turn.

1-0

Match 2: Jason with Stax

Jason and I have had good matches in the past.  He used to be an excellent Flash pilot before the June restrictions. It had been a while since we played each other, and I knew he had been experimenting with aggro decks.  So I didn’t think my opening play of Viashino Heretic would be any good, but when he laid his Workshop I knew I had gotten really lucky.  That game was filled with a lot of mistakes both on my part and his.  We really had no idea exactly what build each other was using, so it was hard to know what strategy would be best.  I won that game with a Shusher wielding a SoFI, but just barely.

Game two I boarded in Relics and Dead/Gone.  This game, he let me walk right into his trap.  He dropped a Shop and Mox on the first turn, then passed.  I dumbly played a Magus of the Moon and passed. He drew, played another land and another mox, then dropped a Trike.  Magus went down, then he pinged me.  I played a Heretic the next turn, then he played a Pithing Needle (naming Viashino Heretic) and a Scarecrone and that was basically game.  He was able to keep cycling his Trike back and forth with the Scarecrone, killing my weenies and pinging me. 

Game three was better for me.  I led with a Chalice at 0 and a Magus of the Moon.  He played a Strip Mine (now a mountain).  I played a Pithing Needle on Trike the next turn and slowly whittled his life down.  He was able to slow me for many turns with Tangle Wire and blocking with Metalworkers.  It was interesting at one point he double blocked my Magus and as a result ended up with 3 City of Traitors in play.  I ended up winning, but not before I had to play nearly every 2/2 in my deck.

2-0

Match 3: Korey with Tez

We drew.  The weekly Something 2 Do tourneys start at 6:30 and only has 3 rounds then cuts to top 8.  So Korey and I were able to draw in.   I scouted around and saw three Elf decks out there.  Thankfully, none of them made the top 8.  It would have been a bad matchup for me.  After watching a few games, I toured the rest of the store, looking at their merchandise.  It’s a really nice place.

2-0-1

Top 8, Match 1: Jason (again) with Stax

The top 8 began, and I was paired up with Jason again.  This match was very similar to the first except I killed him with a Gargadon one game.  Jason is a riot to play against.  He’s always cracking jokes and antagonizing the other players.  I shook his hand after the match said good game. 

3-0-1

Top 8 Match 2: Korey with Tez

We drew the first time, now we got to play each other for real.  I can’t remember who won the roll, but I do remember I opened with a very fast Chalice-Thorn-Magus-Shusher in the first two or three turns.  I won with a SofI on my Shusher.  I remember playing a Pithing Needle on Time Vault that game and that ended up being the key to my victory.

Game two was much more interesting.  With my Red Blasts and Heretics I was able to keep much of his permanents off the board, and likewise with his Repeals and FoW’s he was able to counter or bounce most of what I was doing.  I had a GG suspended and was in pretty good control of the game, so I decided to go all in.  I tapped out for all but one of my mana to drop a Sofi and a Vexing Shusher with three red floating.  Then I saced off my Pithing Needle (set on Time Vault) and all my lands except my untapped mountain to play my GG.  I had enough left in my pool to attach the SofI to my GG and win the game!  Except I didn’t.  I had miscounted the amount of damage my GG + SoFI would do by one point.  So Korey was left alive with 1 life and I had two creatures in play.  I wasn’t all that worried.  BUT, he top decked his Voltaic Key dropped his Vault and Key then went infinite and won the game!!!  Everyone erupted in laughter.  If I had saced my Mountain instead of my Needle, I would have won the game.  I have to admit that I was a little embarrassed, but I congratulated Korey on an awesome play.

Game three was close too.  This time we were both able to play a lot of our cards.  I had four or five creatures on the board, he had tons of mana and cards in hand.  He was getting very low on life and I was using my Heretic to blow up his artifact mana.  I got him down to two life when he drained my Magus of the Moon- which I hoped would have sealed the deal on any bounce or other blue spells he had.  He used the mana to drain into Tez, but didn’t have enough mana left on the board to either play his TV from his hand.  He used Tez’s ability to grab a Mox Sapphire to add to his untapped Mox Jet, but he realized that even with two mana open he couldn’t combo off that turn.  He passed, hoping that I would direct my damage at Tez instead of him, but I used my Heretic to blow up his Sapphire and attacked with my Shusher to deal the final 2 damage to Korey.  I won the match, but it was a very hard game and both of us made outstanding plays.  If he would have gotten just one more untap phase, he would have won.

4-0-1

Top 8, Match 3: John A with Homebrew Fish Deck

John and I play every single time I come.  It’s not like the TO does that on purpose, it just happens.  Most of the time he gets the better of me.  We both play a similar style, it’s that he’s better and more practiced.  By now it was just before 11 o’clock I think.  The mall where the game store is gets upset if customers stay past that time (technically it closes at 10).  John and I really wanted to play each other, but decided to split the 1st place cash rather than get the TO in trouble.  He’s a terrific guy and runs game tournaments all day long on Saturdays.  So, John and I both walked out with prize money, and I left feeling pretty good about playing my new build.

4-0-2

Reflecting on the day, I felt my deck was pretty solid.  SoFI turned out to be a better card than I thought it was.  Gargadon + Shusher is a real good combo.  Having the cards to power out a first turn Magus is really key for me in a lot of games.  I also learned that Viashino Heretic is just a more versatile card than Gorilla Shaman which was my go-to artifact hate before that day.  Oh, and I also discovered that it’s really dumb to sac your Pithing Needle when it’s set to your opponent’s win condition.  Yeah.  I think I’ll keep that little dandy in my mind from now on.

Peace,

-Troy

Edited for spelling and grammar

[TopSecret]

Have you considered putting Rise of the Hobgoblins in the sideboard for the Fish matchup?

No, I haven't really.  What experience do you have with it?  It seems really mana intensive and more aggro-centric while my build is more control-centric.  Comming out of the sideboard, 5 red blasts, 4 Dead/Gone, and 2 Martyrs usually does the trick vs. Fish.

I don't have any experience with it.
I suggested it because it seems good in theory,
since you play an awful lot of mana maindeck.

Worst case,
it's only two mana invested if the fish opponent tries to counter it,
so it's not bad as a bating tool.

If the opponent doesn't counter it,
you can unload your mana into a bunch of guys
that will create havoc for them if they don't Stifle the trigger or find an Echoing Truth.
On top of that, the enchantment gives all your creatures first strike,
so even if they find an answer for all your first striking dudes,
the rest of your guys will have first strike until they deal with the enchantment,
which will make all future combat hell for them.

I think it could be good in the early game, to make chump blockers and slow down combat,
and late game, it'd be a huge bomb.

Also, it feeds Gargadon.

I think it could be a huge beating in your deck,
but I can understand if you need cheap disruption to help with the early game
or if a relatively narrow bomb for the fish (and Stax?) matchup isn't an efficient use of sideboard space.
'Just making a suggestion.

[Myriad Games]

I've been thinking over the past few weeks that classic TMWA seems to fit into the new metagame even better with an increase in Fish, Control, and Stax decks. I can't wait to try out updated lists in the new year. Reading Troy's report made me think how cool it can be to play The Mountains and use classic unconventional cards to counteract the more broken elements of the metagame.

[Stormanimagus]

Heya,

I’ve finally got enough time to talk about my matches.  Just for reference, here’s my list again:

Creatures 
4   Greater Gargadon 
4   Magus of the Moon   
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Vexing Shusher   
2   Viashino Heretic   

Enchantments 
1   Blood Moon

Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus
4   Chalice of the Void
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet     
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
2   Pithing Needle
1   Sol Ring 
4   Sphere of Resistance
2   Sword of Fire and Ice
4   Thorn of Amethyst   
1   Trinisphere 

Lands 
3   Ancient Tomb
11  Mountain
1   Tolarian Academy
   
Sideboard     (15 cards) 
4   Dead/Gone   
2   Pyroblast
3   Red Elemental Blast
2   Martyr of Ashes
4   Relic of Progenitus


Edited for spelling and grammar

I'm curious. Did you find that not having a good draw engine was ever a big problem. This deck seems a bit like Stax in functionality as it is looking to control the first couple turns of the game and then ride that to victory. No CA problems?

[Stormanimagus]

I've been thinking over the past few weeks that classic TMWA seems to fit into the new metagame even better with an increase in Fish, Control, and Stax decks. I can't wait to try out updated lists in the new year. Reading Troy's report made me think how cool it can be to play The Mountains and use classic unconventional cards to counteract the more broken elements of the metagame.

What do you mean by "classic"? RW? Mono-Red?

[Troy_Costisick]

I'm curious. Did you find that not having a good draw engine was ever a big problem. This deck seems a bit like Stax in functionality as it is looking to control the first couple turns of the game and then ride that to victory. No CA problems?

Excellent question!  And let me preface everything by saying this deck is not in a perfected form and I am in no way an experienced Magic theorist. 

When I conceived this deck, I looked CA in a different way.  I began thinking that the best way to control the board is increasingly become through permanents and less and less through permission.  Decks and mana sources are getting so fast and prevelant, that the ole' Force of Will isn't the silver bullet it once was (not to marginalize the card in any way, it's great, but you can only have 4 in a deck).  For me, Card Advantage became Cards-in-Play Advantage.  Every turn a Sphere of Resistance or a Magus of the Moon is in play, it's working for me.  It's almost like holding a card in hand except instead of having a potential play, I have a tangible effect on the board. 

These effects are cumulative.  For every Sphere, Thorn, Needle, and Magus I play, my control increases.  Spells get more expensive, my clock gets faster, my permanents become harder to remove, my opponent's win condition becomes harder to achieve.  At some point, my control becomes strong enough that I can even hard cast Spirit Guides and use them as aggro, or convert them into a Greater Gargadon for a finishing move.  So even my off color Moxen and redundant Mountains become part of the deck's aggro strategy. 

I've allowed plenty of Ancestrals, TKFs, Brainstorms, and Ponders to resolve, and I still won the game.  The longer the game goes, the more cards in play matter more and the more cards in hand matter less.  With a main deck that has no non-permanents, that gives me a major advantage.  Like you say, it is a bit like Stax in functionality but, I believe, more versitile in application.

There is a very minute amount of card drawing in this deck.  Sword of Fire and Ice gives me some CA, but honestly, once that's out the game is over quickly.  A Shusher or Spirit Guide equipped with the thing deals 6 damage a turn.  That's plenty fast.

Does that answer your question?

Peace,

-Troy

[Stormanimagus]

I'm curious. Did you find that not having a good draw engine was ever a big problem. This deck seems a bit like Stax in functionality as it is looking to control the first couple turns of the game and then ride that to victory. No CA problems?

Excellent question!  And let me preface everything by saying this deck is not in a perfected form and I am in no way an experienced Magic theorist. 

When I conceived this deck, I looked CA in a different way.  I began thinking that the best way to control the board is increasingly become through permanents and less and less through permission.  Decks and mana sources are getting so fast and prevelant, that the ole' Force of Will isn't the silver bullet it once was (not to marginalize the card in any way, it's great, but you can only have 4 in a deck).  For me, Card Advantage became Cards-in-Play Advantage.  Every turn a Sphere of Resistance or a Magus of the Moon is in play, it's working for me.  It's almost like holding a card in hand except instead of having a potential play, I have a tangible effect on the board. 

These effects are cumulative.  For every Sphere, Thorn, Needle, and Magus I play, my control increases.  Spells get more expensive, my clock gets faster, my permanents become harder to remove, my opponent's win condition becomes harder to achieve.  At some point, my control becomes strong enough that I can even hard cast Spirit Guides and use them as aggro, or convert them into a Greater Gargadon for a finishing move.  So even my off color Moxen and redundant Mountains become part of the deck's aggro strategy. 

I've allowed plenty of Ancestrals, TKFs, Brainstorms, and Ponders to resolve, and I still won the game.  The longer the game goes, the more cards in play matter more and the more cards in hand matter less.  With a main deck that has no non-permanents, that gives me a major advantage.  Like you say, it is a bit like Stax in functionality but, I believe, more versitile in application.

There is a very minute amount of card drawing in this deck.  Sword of Fire and Ice gives me some CA, but honestly, once that's out the game is over quickly.  A Shusher or Spirit Guide equipped with the thing deals 6 damage a turn.  That's plenty fast.

Does that answer your question?

Peace,

-Troy

Kinda. But EVERY deck has weak spots. Otherwise Vintage would be a format where every one played a single deck (i.e-BORING). Often times making a deck better is truly accepting it's weakness and trying to make them less relevant by

a) understanding that the deck choice had something to do with the metagame and hopefully you won't be seeing the weak matchup too often

b) the sideboard

c) playskill. How you approach a given weak match to improve it.

What I want to know is this: How do you expect real matches to play out with this deck. Obviously you've had some experience with it already, and it's mostly been good.

What if you're playing against the best decks with the best pilots though like say, Travis Laplante? or Stephen Menendian? or Other Waterbury Champs?

Will these matchups against Tez Control truly be THAT winnable. What are the holes in the strategy that might be tied up? Is Gargadon really that great?

Seems to me like Rw version with Mirror Entity as a finisher could be solid. It would also allow you room for STP, and Ethersworn Canonist. Just a thought. The good old fashioned Rw approach might be worth revisiting. I'll bs both a mono-red list that I'd run and a RW list a bit later and show you what I've come up with. I do agree that Magus of the Moon and mana accel in the form of spirit guide has to be at the heart of this deck's strategy, but I'm not sure I agree on some of the other cards.

[Myriad Games]

The Mountains Win Again originated as a mono red deck and then quickly developed to add white, so those are the cards that I consider classic at this point. I agree with Troy's assessment that the card advantage in TMWA. Most cards either have to be very good at what they do or flexible enough to allow for multiple benefits in game.

[neverlookback]

The Mountains Win Again originated as a mono red deck and then quickly developed to add white, so those are the cards that I consider classic at this point. I agree with Troy's assessment that the card advantage in TMWA. Most cards either have to be very good at what they do or flexible enough to allow for multiple benefits in game.

your mountains aint got shit on my islands

Hello, and welcome to The Mana Drain.  We try to maintain a higher level of discussion quality than other websites you might be accustomed to.  To that end, we don't allow one-line posts.  We also frown on statements that might antagonize other users.  In the future, please try to be more civil in your posting, and to provide reasoned explanations for your assertions.  You may wish to consult the site rules to make sure your future posts meet TMD's higher expectations.  Good luck with future posting.  -DA

[bluemage55]

your mountains aint got shit on my islands

And you're just a ban waiting to happen.

Comments like this add nothing useful to TMD. Verbal Warning for spam.
-Godder

[Stormanimagus]

Aight guys, I've been toying with some lists and here's my most recent update to TMWA. I think RW is a strong combo of colors and allows for the most explosive turn 1 and turn 2 plays. The manabase is kinda troubling, however with the inclusion of Magus Of The Moon. I'm a bit worried about my white sources beyond the 4 Plateau.

RW ‘The Mountains Win Again?’

Land (20):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plateau
5 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb

Artifacts (14):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Trinisphere

Creatures (22):
4 Gorilla Shaman (R)
4 Ethersworn Canonist (1R)
4 Magus Of The Moon (2R)
4 Simian Spirit Guide (2R)
4 Glowrider (2W)
2 Mirror Entity (2W)

Instants (4):
4 Swords To Plowshares (W)

SB
4 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
4 Vexing Shusher

[Troy_Costisick]

Kinda. But EVERY deck has weak spots.

Yes, I believe that's universally true.

What I want to know is this: How do you expect real matches to play out with this deck.

That's kind of a hard question to answer without any kind of context.  This isn't a goldfish deck like Ichorid or Flash (used to be).  But I expect that in close to half the games I play, I will be able to play two pieces of control on turn 1.  In the games that I'm not able to play two, half of those instances will end up with me being able to cast a Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon.  After the first turn, I expect I'll most likely get a second or third piece of control in play.  Once I've established that, I have all the time I need to put aggro out or suspend a Gargadon and win that route.  But of course it will depend on what my opponent does and what type of deck he plays.

What if you're playing against the best decks with the best pilots though like say, Travis Laplante? or Stephen Menendian?

Would playing those guys change my strategy in any way?  Is that what you're asking?  The answer, of course, would be "no."  If I were playing Stephen, I'd probably guess he was play TPS or some other Storm combo, and that might determine whether I keep a hand or mulligan into more useful cards.  But I would do the same for any other player I suspected was playing a Tendrils deck.  This deck has beat Tendrils, so it reasons that it could beat a Tendrils deck played by Stephen.  However, since Stephen is a far better player than I am, his chances of winning are probably better than mine in a theoretical matchup.  My only advantage would come from the fact I can read about his deck and his style online, while my posts in this thread go largely unnoticed, I'm sure.  But my skill (or lack thereof) is not a reflection on the deck's potential, but instead on my personal potential as a player.  I'm not sure what your asking in the above quote is answerable or fair to be honest with you.  It's a hypothetical with too many variables to even begin listing.  Do you think you could explain what information you're really looking for here?

Will these matchups against Tez Control truly be THAT winnable. What are the holes in the strategy that might be tied up?

The Chalices in the deck keep him off his Moxen early.  The Needles and Heretics keep him off his win condition late.  The red blasts in the sideboard always swing the game in my favor.  Vexing Shusher can neutralize most if not all of his counter magic.  Magus neutralizes most of his lands.  SoFi improves my clock and gives my Magus protection plus CA.  9Sphere makes it harder for him to Drain and get Tez into play.  Dead/Gone in the SB and the 2 Heretics in the Main make DSC a less attractive option.  The SSGs and Ancient Tombs make my deck faster.  So yeah, Tez Control is winnable even if they have a FoW in their opening hand.  Now a Thoughtseize plus FoW in their opening hand is hard to come back from, but what deck beyond Ichorid won't be hamstringed by that?

Is Gargadon really that great?

No.  But Gargadon + Shusher is amazing.  That gurantees he hits the board.  Against Oath, Gargadon + Shusher is extremenly hard to deal with.  Against Fish, Garg is a total beast.  Actually against any opponent, except maybe a Shop guy holding a Tanglewire, Gargadon is worth the slot.  And if the game goes long, I don't even need to sacrifice that many permanents to play him (and remember, the entire deck is nothing but permanents) and can win just on him alone while my other permanents remained tapped. 

Seems to me like Rw version with Mirror Entity as a finisher could be solid.

He is solid.  But he's also the last thing you'd want in play or in your hand against a Slaver deck. 

It would also allow you room for STP, and Ethersworn Canonist.

Cannonist's job is covered by the Spheres.  STP is a great card, but I have a plan against Oath and Welder where STP is most effective.  There is a problem when adding a color.  Your mana bast becomes weaker and more complex.  You have to plan for having a Magus in play but still remain flexible enough to play cards if you never draw him during the course of a game.  That means probably 2 if not 3 basics of the off color.  And if that color is just a splash for say 8 or less cards, then the mana problems can be compounded.  If you look through the history of the TMWA threads, you'll see that I've played a lot of R/G.  Green gave me Goyf and a lot of flexibility when it came to removing annoying permanents.  However, I found I was trying to balance a three prong scale: Control Elements vs. Agro Elements vs. Consistent Speed.  You need all three and getting them right is really tough.  When Oath became popular in my area, I had to find another strategy besides wasting my sideboard space with enchantment kill.

I'll bs both a mono-red list that I'd run and a RW list a bit later and show you what I've come up with.

Sweet!  I can't wait to read about them.  I'm all for refining my decks.

Peace,

-Troy

Edited for spelling and grammar

[d0rsal]

@ Stormanimagus & Troy: in a deck like this, i like to run all 8 appropriate fetchlands to try & thin down the deck as much as possible in a effort to increase my "business" draws later in the game.  i think both of your decks could benefit from this due to their "limited" draw engines. 

@ Stormanimagus:  if you're going to run a deck w/ 4 gorilla shamans, you've need to run a mana crypt.  the mox monkey wont let it kill you!  =) also, if you're worrying about your white mana, but you dont want to add more basic plains, what about sacred foundries?  to the best of my knowledge they can be "fetched" as well.

just a few thoughts 

[Troy_Costisick]

@ Stormanimagus & Troy: in a deck like this, i like to run all 8 appropriate fetchlands to try & thin down the deck as much as possible in a effort to increase my "business" draws later in the game.  i think both of your decks could benefit from this due to their "limited" draw engines. 

That's not a bad suggestion, except that would give me 8 fetches for only 3 targets.  Having 4 might be okay, but when sacrificing permanents to a GG with a Shusher in play, generating as much red mana as possible is key to getting them all in play on the same turn.  Fetches reduce the chance of me drawing future mountains.  Against a deck that uses Null Rod that could be very harmful to my strategy.  Not to mentio, in a game vs. Shop there could conceivably be 3-5 Spheres and a Thorn or two on the table.  Reduciing my chances to draw non-artifact mana in that situation is not ideal.  I need free mana fast to keep playing my spells.  I've tried fetches in this deck in the past and found that they didn't make too much difference.  I'd often rather safe the point of life and just have a mountain.  If you play the deck as I have it listed, I think you might see what I mean.  However, if you tournament results are different, I'd be keenly interested in reading about them

Peace,

-Troy

[d0rsal]

@ Troy - i wasnt referring to your deck specifically.  i was spking more in general terms, that when playing a deck w/o much of a draw engine that the fetches can help increase the quality of the cards drawn by thinning the land in the deck; sort of like land tax.  however i think that there's a fallacy in your statement about fetches reducing your chances of drawing future mtns.  using your deck specifically, if you ran 5 fetches & 6 mtns, how would the fetchlands decrease your chances of drawing future mtns?  if you were to draw a fetch, it then becomes a mtn & in situations where you've got a bloodmoon effect in play, ea. land you draw is a mtn. 

[Mantis]

Last night I couldn't sleep and I thought about my Shop Aggro list, I just tested some games and everything just didn't go as well as I hoped it to be. I found that the games that I won, were usually on the back of the 9 sphere effects or Magus of the Moon and not on the back of Juggernaut or Solemn. My thought was that if I could replace Juggernaut or Solemn with some more disruptive creatures that would be great. Unfortunately, without resorting to Stax (not enough proxies for Bazaar, Shop and the Moxen) the cards just are not there to replace Juggernaut, Solemn and Triskelion. Anyway, I knew I wanted a build with Thorn and Magus and that's TMWA! Aven Mindcensor, Gorilla Shaman and Glow Rider came next and then I thought of Ranger of Eos. WTF?!

3 Ancient Tomb
4 Plateau
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Glowrider
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Ranger of Eos
4 Gorilla Shaman
1 Goblin Welder
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Children of Korlis

So the aim of the deck is to disrupt the opponents manabase while having a solid clock as well. This list is far from perfect however and I will discuss the possible flaws now.

Having no time to test as of yet, this is highly experimental. The manabase looks terrible but I'm not sure I can justify fetchlands with Aven Mindcensor, I hope the manabase isn't too suicidal but testing will have to show that. Furthermore I would love Wasteland and Strip Mine in this deck but that would just nuke anything that's left of the manabase. I have no idea how to fix it however as I need a lot of mana fast but I also need the right colors of mana.

Let me elaborate on Ranger of Eos; I wondered how on earth I would be able to beat Fish and Shops as they are hardly effected by my disruption. Ranger of Eos is obviously great against Stax setting up the Welder/Shaman lock by it's own. Against Fish he can fetch out Grim Lavamancer and Mogg Fanatic and he's also a body himself so he dominates the board. Ranger of Eos is not dead against Drain and TPS, against TPS he will fetch out Children, against CS either Grim Lavamancer or Mogg Fanatic to kill Gorilla Shaman/Welder + a Gorilla Shaman.

This idea might be garbage, but it could also be amazing. Perhaps the power of Workshop is too big too pass up, but I thought I might give this a shot.

[Guli]

Damn if Ranger of Eos was 3 mana I would play him without doubt. You do have a good amount of acceleration. Could work! Nice.

[Mantis]

Durr.. Aven Mindcensor only counts for the opponent, boy that solves a lot of manabase issues. Reading = tech as always.

4 Plateau
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains

That looks a lot more solid, updated the list.