The Mountains Win Again!

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I might also suggest Seal of Cleansing or Aura of Silence.  I've recently tried Seal of Primordium in another deck, and it works great!  It's something worth testing, I believe.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Seal of Cleansing used to be awesome back in the day, when it was an Enlightened Tutor target.

I ran Seal of Primordium as well and it was nice to have a bit of a backup. Do you think Krosan Grip would be worth running over Seal in builds running green?

[Troy_Costisick]

Seal of Cleansing used to be awesome back in the day, when it was an Enlightened Tutor target.

I ran Seal of Primordium as well and it was nice to have a bit of a backup. Do you think Krosan Grip would be worth running over Seal in builds running green?

I feel K-grip is a fine card to play so long as the deck that includes it has the acceleration to play it consistently any time it wants to.  Basically, that would be a deck running Moxen and not running Null Rod.  If a deck is unpowered and/or running Null Rods, then Seal is the better choice IMHO.  I think, right now, K-grip is at a peak power level because Time Vault, Grindstone, and Oath are all seeing play in larger numbers than at other times in Vintage's past.

Peace,

-Troy

[overseer1234]

I feel K-grip is a fine card to play so long as the deck that includes it has the acceleration to play it consistently any time it wants to.  Basically, that would be a deck running Moxen and not running Null Rod.  If a deck is unpowered and/or running Null Rods, then Seal is the better choice IMHO. 

You could also run spirit guide's (red and/or green ones) and stil play null rod+krosan grip.

[chief]

I feel K-grip is a fine card to play so long as the deck that includes it has the acceleration to play it consistently any time it wants to.  Basically, that would be a deck running Moxen and not running Null Rod.  If a deck is unpowered and/or running Null Rods, then Seal is the better choice IMHO.

You could also run spirit guide's (red and/or green ones) and stil play null rod+krosan grip.

I really feel that even with spirit guides seal is the superior choice in a null rod deck.

[Troy_Costisick]

I feel K-grip is a fine card to play so long as the deck that includes it has the acceleration to play it consistently any time it wants to.  Basically, that would be a deck running Moxen and not running Null Rod.  If a deck is unpowered and/or running Null Rods, then Seal is the better choice IMHO.

You could also run spirit guide's (red and/or green ones) and stil play null rod+krosan grip.

I really feel that even with spirit guides seal is the superior choice in a null rod deck.

I agree.  Spirit Guides aren't reliable enough IMO.

Peace,

-Troy

[overseer1234]

Well, Ive been really inspired by Smmenen's budget R/G-beatz deck, but I don't have goyf's and taiga's so I decided to make a Mono red deck that uses the same skeleton. But I think this still qualifies als TMWA, so here's the decklist:


Get your foot in the door:

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

Complements:

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Now that you've taken Yawgmoth's Will:

4 Stingscourger
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Viashino Heretic

Cleanup/damage/all purpose
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt

Alot better than you think:

4 Vexing Shusher

Win the Game + Built in Oath and Ichorid hate:

4 Greater Gargadon

Accelleration/late game beatdown
4 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Lotus Petal

Manas:
14 Mountain

Sideboard:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
(Yard hate)

1x trinisphere
(extra combo hate)

2x pithing needle
(Everythin you want goung from bazaar, to welder, to trisk's, bargain's,...)
4x pyrokinesis
(aggro mirror's)

4x pyroblast
(blue decks???)

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Here's the thing, the Christmas Beatings deck gets its power from examining the metagame and including cards that attack the meta's weaknesses while giving itself enough acceleration to get ahead in terms of tempo.  Your deck is lacking because A) it's not fast, and B) it's not examining the meta.

Let's take Lightning Bolt for instance.  What part of the meta does this address?  You gonna bolt Tez?  Think that will work against a control deck?  Also, let's examine Viashino Heretic.  He's one of my personal favs, but in a deck where your only acceleration is 4 SSG and 1 Lotus Petal, he will not hit the board for a long, long time.  And when he does, you still have to wait a turn to activate his ability.  He's really good against Stax and MUD builds, which are nowhere in the meta right now. 

Magic is a much more basic game than people think, IMO.  Most of the time what you're going to want to do is counter a spell or blow up a mox or destroy a land.  You don't need a lot of fancy tricks and expensive cards to do this.  And you certainly can't hold on to traditional cards like Lightning Bolt.  If I were going to remake your deck given the constraints you appear to be dealing with, here's the list I'd suggest:

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Stingscourger
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Pyroblast
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Greater Gargadon
4 SSG
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
14 Mountains (or 10 Mts. + 4 Fetchlands)

SB:

4 Dead/Gone
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (or Thorn of Amethyst)
4 Relic of Progenitus (or Leyline of the Void)
3 Red Elemental Blast

In this build, all your main deck spells cost 2 or less with the exception of Magus of the Moon.  He's the only exception I'd allow for in this sort of build since he is such a bomb.  Gargadon, honestly, isn't great in this deck because you don't have as many permanents as the deck I suggested previously in this thread, however, I don't see any way to deal with Oath otherwise.  I think you were right to include him in your initial build.  You'll just have to realize he can't be counted on all the time to win like Goyf can in the R/G deck. 

I will say that the list above is untested.  I built it out of my intuition and experience playing with these cards.  Oath is still a terrible matchup for this deck, so is the aggro mirror.  If there are a lot of Welder decks in your area (Slaver, Stax, Belcher) then replace the Shaman with a Fanatic, otherwise the Shaman will do a better job of keeping DSC off the board.  Your best matcups will be against Tez, TPS, and Slaver.  Ichorid is somewhere in the middle.

Good luck, and I'm glad you're wanting to play a TMWA deck!  I really love Red decks in Vintage, so I hope this deck performs well for you.  If you play it in a tournament, post a report.  I know we'd all love to read it.

Peace,

-Troy

[overseer1234]

Heya,

Here's the thing, the Christmas Beatings deck gets its power from examining the metagame and including cards that attack the meta's weaknesses while giving itself enough acceleration to get ahead in terms of tempo.  Your deck is lacking because A) it's not fast, and B) it's not examining the meta.

Ohw but I did exam the meta, but it just happens to be so that the Dutch metagame consists out of every viable deck in vintage going from (BUG)fish, to stax/shop, to slaver, to combo, oath and ichorid+random crap (being us...)

That It could be to slow will be proven by testing.

Let's take Lightning Bolt for instance.  What part of the meta does this address?  You gonna bolt Tez?  Think that will work against a control deck?  Also, let's examine Viashino Heretic.  He's one of my personal favs, but in a deck where your only acceleration is 4 SSG and 1 Lotus Petal, he will not hit the board for a long, long time.  And when he does, you still have to wait a turn to activate his ability.  He's really good against Stax and MUD builds, which are nowhere in the meta right now. 

Yep, the idea of bolt is indeed to shoot down tez, aswel as welders, confidant's, helps bringing down goyf, and also kills metalworkers and Juggernaut (yeah, we see that in our meta)+ it helps the aggro mirror, which isn't that good for us, and it's because of the fact that stax play's chalice's that I would like to have an answer that can be played through a chalice at 1 or 2 (hence 2 shaman and 2 viashino)

Magic is a much more basic game than people think, IMO.  Most of the time what you're going to want to do is counter a spell or blow up a mox or destroy a land.  You don't need a lot of fancy tricks and expensive cards to do this.  And you certainly can't hold on to traditional cards like Lightning Bolt.  If I were going to remake your deck given the constraints you appear to be dealing with, here's the list I'd suggest:

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Stingscourger
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Pyroblast
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Vexing Shusher
4 Greater Gargadon
4 SSG
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
14 Mountains (or 10 Mts. + 4 Fetchlands)

SB:

4 Dead/Gone
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (or Thorn of Amethyst)
4 Relic of Progenitus (or Leyline of the Void)
3 Red Elemental Blast

In this build, all your main deck spells cost 2 or less with the exception of Magus of the Moon.  He's the only exception I'd allow for in this sort of build since he is such a bomb.  Gargadon, honestly, isn't great in this deck because you don't have as many permanents as the deck I suggested previously in this thread, however, I don't see any way to deal with Oath otherwise.  I think you were right to include him in your initial build.  You'll just have to realize he can't be counted on all the time to win like Goyf can in the R/G deck. 

I'm aware of gargadon's "mana problem", but at least it out powers a goyf and it's our only answer to oath short of stingscourger as lonf as the don't oath in akroma.
Also If I'm correct this are the changes you made to the deck:
-4 fannatic
-4 lightning bolt
-2 viashino heretic
+4 smash to smithereens
+4 pyroblast
+2 mox monkey

unless I'm mistaken.

Ohw, and the sideboard that I would play with my list would be something like:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x trinisphere
2x pithing needle
4x pyrokinesis
4x pyroblast

This is untested though...

I will say that the list above is untested.  I built it out of my intuition and experience playing with these cards.  Oath is still a terrible matchup for this deck, so is the aggro mirror.  If there are a lot of Welder decks in your area (Slaver, Stax, Belcher) then replace the Shaman with a Fanatic, otherwise the Shaman will do a better job of keeping DSC off the board.  Your best matchups will be against Tez, TPS, and Slaver.  Ichorid is somewhere in the middle.

It does indeed look pretty good on paper short of a few personal preferences (the 10 cards you switched). Well like I just said, i do see enough decks that play welder, so I think I'm sticking with the fannatic

Good luck, and I'm glad you're wanting to play a TMWA deck!  I really love Red decks in Vintage, so I hope this deck performs well for you.  If you play it in a tournament, post a report.  I know we'd all love to read it.

Peace,

-Troy

Well, thanks for all the help, I'll take note from it and see what further testing will say thou I have to say that Ive only recently began to play vintage (like 2 month's or so) but I think the results show promis(3-3 on my first tournament with a RGB Beats deck, and once 4-1-1 T4 with BUG-fish but it didn't really suit my playstyle).

Also I to have always loved playing red decks + I've always liked being the underdog (in standard when blood moon was legal and solar flare was running rampant, I ran goblins with 4 blood moon main deck ), so in that case the choice of takint TMWA is pretty easy to make , and if I take it to a tournament, be sure to expect a report .


Greetzzzz,

Robin.

[overseer1234]

Deleted, reason: accidentally quoted myself instead of editing.

[Myriad Games]

Thanks for the posts and ideas, Robin. Glad to see you playing TMWA.

it's because of the fact that stax play's chalice's that I would like to have an answer that can be played through a chalice at 1 or 2 (hence 2 shaman and 2 viashino)

If you're running heavy red as you are here, Shattering Spree is your best solution to Chalice on any number. It's superb in taking care of artifacts and much more playable than Viashino Heretic in this particular build.

We'll look forward to more thoughts and to any tournament results as you play with the deck more.

Keep the conversation going!

[overseer1234]

Thanks for the posts and ideas, Robin. Glad to see you playing TMWA.

If you're running heavy red as you are here, Shattering Spree is your best solution to Chalice on any number. It's superb in taking care of artifacts and much more playable than Viashino Heretic in this particular build.

Indeed it is, but shattering spree main deck is more often dead than heretic, or mox monkey since they can bring in at least a few points damage and can be used over multiple turns, where spree is only a 1 trick pony. But I'll consider it as a sideboard option.

Anyway thanks for the input.

Robin.

[Namingway]

Perhaps you could play Ingot Chewer? It gets around Chalice pretty easily, and has a big body if you don't evoke it.

[smasher]

GP LA just finished and the side event for vintage which was no proxy managed to get 26 players. Here is my decklist that went 4-1 in the swiss and got 4th in the finals

Dudes

4x Dark confidant
4x ethersworn canonist
3x aven mindscenor
3x Jotun grunt
1x gorilla shaman
1x goblin welder

Spells

2x Hide/Seek
3x Null Rod
4x red elemental blast
4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
3x Swords to plowshares
1x Balance
1x V. Tutor
1x D. Tutor

Mana

Black lotus
Mox jet
Mox ruby
Mox pearl
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
1x mountain
1x plains
1x swamp
1x plateau
2x badlands
2x scrublands
4x bloodstained mire
2x windswept heath

Sideboard

3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x pyroblast
3x Leyline of the void
2x extirpate
3x Kataki, wars wage
1x Swords to plowshare


Decks being played where something like
4+ tendrils lists
2-3 painters
3-4 dredge
1 red shop deck
3 oath of druids
several fish decks of varying color combos including mine
2-3 tezzeret lists
1 sui black I think too maybe with a green splash
1 elf combo

Rd 1 opponent had to drop for whatever reason, yay free win

Rd 2 painter, stone. An easy matchup that ends 2-0

Rd 3 tezzeret 2-1 for the win. tezz got 1 game with a first or 2nd turn tinker for collossus

Rd 4 Dredge  2-1 win. He goes first and gets game 1, after siding game 2 is easily won landing extirpate twice and a waste on bazaar. game 3  extirpate on bridge turn 1 puts him on the ichorid plan. game goes long with grunt putting ichorids on the bottom of the deck, but a couple narco's and my bob dmg puts me in range of dying to any card with a mana cost. finally get the win at 5 health after swords on jotun grunt to stay alive through bob.
Rd5 tezz list, turn 1 tinker gets 11/11 and smashes through for the win. Game 2 some play errors give the opponent an easy win. He gets the match 2-0

Top 8 seated 2nd overall from the swiss. Playing against storm an easy matchup for this list but it goes to game 3 thanks to bob dmg after taking 14 from a sundering titan before dealing with it. 1 more attack from bob and the match would have went 2-0

Lost the next one taking 4th place and half a box of shards.

A few notes about card choices.

Hide/Seek was good all day. Never a dead card. It will remain a 2 of main deck. Answering enchantments rarely comes up but its nice to have access to the ability maindeck if needed. Seeking so many of the lists played today will just leave them without a good wincon or cripple them by hitting will. If you haven't tried this card yet you are missing out.

Leyline of the void...never saw that one when it got sided in. Extirpates will be going up to 3 or 4 in the side along with a jailer or 2 and ditching the leylines
s
Goblin welder usually got sided out but he is more versatile than in previous rbw lists with canonist and null rod to weld in if countered or killed. Allso answers to the many artifact kills going around such as darksteel colossus, timevault/key/tezz, painter/grindstone. Even forcing the opponent when to use the memory jar can be decent. Will continue to test it as a 1 of for now.

I would like another card or 2 for shops decks in the side. probably cutting 1 pyroblast for a shattering spree, meltdown, or rack and ruin.

Balance hasn't been very impressive as of late. even when it provides 2-4 card advantage it seems to leave something for them to win with. Empty the warrens just isn't seeing much play so I dont really need the wrath effect from it. It will probly stay maindeck just because it can be a good tutor target but it still seems lacking.

1 engineered explosives will be going in the board for something for the games Null rod gets sided out which will pretty much be other fish matchups.

Would like to get the 4th null rod back in the deck but don't want to cut anything right yet.

Overall the list had really good game against the entire field.


-Eric


changes to deal with oath and some general sideboard changes as well

maindeck -1 balance +1 diabolic edict

sideboard -3 leyline of the void, -2 pyroblast, +1 diabolic edict, +1 extirpate, +1 engineered explosives, +2 yixlid jailers

Possibly changing out 1 umezawa's jitte for another ee or a seal of cleansing as well

[jeffthefob]

Rd5 tezz list, turn 1 tinker gets 11/11 and smashes through for the win. Game 2 some play errors give the opponent an easy win. He gets the match 2-0

Hello.  It was nice playing you, I am the Tez. player you played in round 5; eventually taking down the whole tourney.  Not trying to be picky or anything... Game 1 against you I resolved Tfk and Ancestral while you were Duress'ing me 1 for 1.  The game wasn't close at all.  And game 2 was interesting, since you said you wanted to play, get a feel of the deck you are playing and my deck, thus I didn't board in my Oath plan against you ^^.  In game 2 you had Bob going for 4 turns, but didn't manage to use Wastelands too effectively allowing me to resolves FoF. 

Overall the list had really good game against the entire field.

Well, given that there was a fair amount of Oath in the field and given you not playing with Ancestral, FoW, or Yawg. Will, and enchantment removals...., I am not exactly too sure you have a good game against everyone.  These type of decks can gear themselves up for a particular match ups.  But your configuration is certainly not good against Oath.  Hide/Seek and StP are needed in multiples, and this is under the assumptions they 1. Resolves and 2. They play only 2 Oath targets.

It was nice playing you, maybe you can drop by NorCal sometime and play in monthly type 1 tourneys up here with TMWA.  We don't see this archtype a lot around here, it would be nice ^_^

[jeffthefob]

Edit: Sorry, I messed up this post.  Should had been an edit from the previous post, I don't know what happened.

I also made a thread about the GP: LA side event.  Feel free to post some of the details that you remember during the tourney.

[vassago]

I think Smasher (Eric) wasn't the one playing the deck, it was Matt who playing his list. Just clarifying that up for you Jeff.  And like I mentioned to you at the tourny, I was playing the oath list in top 4, we actually do want to travel for a tourny in that area sometime in the future. Congrats on the win dude.

[smasher]

Rd5 tezz list, turn 1 tinker gets 11/11 and smashes through for the win. Game 2 some play errors give the opponent an easy win. He gets the match 2-0

Hello.  It was nice playing you, I am the Tez. player you played in round 5; eventually taking down the whole tourney.  Not trying to be picky or anything... Game 1 against you I resolved Tfk and Ancestral while you were Duress'ing me 1 for 1.  The game wasn't close at all.  And game 2 was interesting, since you said you wanted to play, get a feel of the deck you are playing and my deck, thus I didn't board in my Oath plan against you ^^.  In game 2 you had Bob going for 4 turns, but didn't manage to use Wastelands too effectively allowing me to resolves FoF. 

Overall the list had really good game against the entire field.

Well, given that there was a fair amount of Oath in the field and given you not playing with Ancestral, FoW, or Yawg. Will, and enchantment removals...., I am not exactly too sure you have a good game against everyone.  These type of decks can gear themselves up for a particular match ups.  But your configuration is certainly not good against Oath.  Hide/Seek and StP are needed in multiples, and this is under the assumptions they 1. Resolves and 2. They play only 2 Oath targets.

It was nice playing you, maybe you can drop by NorCal sometime and play in monthly type 1 tourneys up here with TMWA.  We don't see this archtype a lot around here, it would be nice ^_^

Yeah I'm not saying oath is easy because it's not as good a game as other decks with blue, but I do have 3 stp and 2 hide/seek game one. with 10 ways to help them resolve, 4 reb, 6 duress effects. I get the 4th stp after game 1 and a couple more pyroblast

It has been a couple months since I tested the oath matchup and my list was different at that time. I do remember winning a decent amount of the games though and that old list didn't maindeck reb's or hide/seek.

Vassago is correct in saying that it was Matt playing my deck.

I'm curious what creatures you bring in with your oath sideboard package.

If we make it to an event we will most likely have a car full of people to bring. Looking forward to that happening some time.

[Stormanimagus]

Aight, since Hide//Seek looks like a viable option once again, I am returning to these forms to pitch a deck idea. It is untested, but I've run a deck like it in the past so I have an idea of how it'll do in various matchups.

Put simply, Hide // Seek should be great right now.

*Against TPS you can nab either Tendrils or DSC (depending on if you have the STP for DSC ready anyway.

*Against Tezzeret you could nab Time Vault or DSC depending on the situation.

*Against Oath you could nab Hellkite Overlord and gain absurd amounts of life and then simply STP the other one.

*Against Stax (which isn't very popular right now I understand) you can nab many different aftifacts and keep them from being welded back in. Actually Hide is great against DSC as well.

So anyway, now I just need help in constructing the most bad-ass list possible.

I really like Kederekt Parasite because it can be a fast clock against many decks and is great in the 1-slot. He makes me less worried about not running Tarmogoyf and splashing Green. He still could be garbage though so feel free to say so.

Vexing Parasite

Land (16):
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
2 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (9):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Artifact Creatures (4):
4 Ethersworn Canonist

Creatures (16):
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kederekt Parasite
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vexing Shusher

Instants (10):
4 Hide//Seek
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Extirpate

Sorceries (5):
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor

SB
4 Path To Exile
3 Extirpate
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
???

So There it is. The only other lists I could conceive of would just be a straight RB TMWA and it would probably run Magus. I'll brainstorm about that list a bit later.

[nineisnoone]

@ Storm.
I'm working on this idea as well.
Don't you think Shaman + Null Rod is excessive though? I would cut the Rods in favor of the Shaman.  That was one of the big advantages I saw running red being able to run "Rod" without running Rod.

Not sure about the Cannonist and Shushers.  I am thinking of making them SB cards and maybe only running a couple Shushers. 

I'm also thinking that if I cut Rod, that means I get to add Vial.  Hide fills the primary reason I run STP/Exile, i.e. DSC.  So that opens me up to go for a heavier creature build.  Plus it works wondering with double colored spells like Believer and Shusher (in this build) and gets around Cannonist.

[smasher]

Storm...

Vexing shusher is nice in letting your spells resolve but with only 4 duress as your countermagic package would these be better as red blasts. at the very least blasts should go to the sideboard for your open slots. Red blast is vindicate vs tezzeret, shusher puts him at 2 which is still plenty to go infinite with time vault.

I like null rod more than gorilla shaman and would cut a couple shaman before dropping any rods. specifically in your list because you would be hard pressed to even get to 3 mana to kill a 1 drop artifact let alone 5 to deal with a time vault. Null rod is going to hit grindstones, timevault/key, scroll rack, top, memory jar, tormods crypt, powder keg, engineered explosives and all the artifact mana. Assuming you are shutting off your artifact mana with a rod, gorilla shaman has 6 dual lands and a swamp left to activate with. On turn 1 if you can drop a gorilla shaman or duress I would run out the duress. This makes gorilla shaman a nice backup one drop if you don't have the duress in hand.

hide/seek, swords to plowshares, and path to exile each as 4 ofs seems excessive unless your entire metagame is fish/aggro decks. That is quite a few dead cards vs tezz, tendrils, belcher, and probably a few other lists which would seems to make up a decent chunk of the field. Path to exile seems bad in a mana denial deck such as yours. Seems safer to give them some stp life and win through a solid lock down plan

Your list seems to fold to other fish decks or even a blue deck with 4 ophidians as the only creature. How do you get around a 3 toughness guy and how many times can you trade 1 for 1 on your guys with stuff like trinket mages before you just get combo'd out. Aven mindcensor with flying can solve a lot of the common issues you will face and he helps the mana denial plan by hosing fetches and just shuts down tutors. Jotun grunt is pretty solid as well right now in that he makes painter/grindstone search out t. crypt or you get to stack your deck, helps a lot vs ichorid by getting rid of any relevant threats in the yard, can usually keep goyf small enough you can kill it or at least race one, trades with Juggernaut, recycles your relevant spells to the matchup assuming you can shuffle them back in with a fetchland, and grunt also says no to old man of the sea.

I just feel like you are going too heavy on the creature removal spells to shore up the fish/aggro match but it will hurt the rest of your matches. Different threats with disruptive abilities  seems like the way to go right now.

Fetchlands, you have enough white spells in your deck you go up to 6 fetches and add in windswept heath or flooded strand. How relevant is the swamp as your only basic considering you only have duress, dark conf., and seek as black spells. I like running basics for sure but if you are only running 1 is this the right choice? I run 1 of each in my list considering back to basics and wastelands are common plays in my meta game.

Feel free to scroll up a few posts and check out my current B/R/W list

-Eric

[the boogie man]

If you run the mindscensors, path to exile gets much better.

Have you guys thought about the new kederekt parasite coming from conflux? It seems pretty viable, especially in multiples. That would make things like gorilla shaman much more valuable to the deck. Or even that 3 mana goblin blitterblossom?

[Stormanimagus]

@ Storm.
I'm working on this idea as well.
Don't you think Shaman + Null Rod is excessive though? I would cut the Rods in favor of the Shaman.  That was one of the big advantages I saw running red being able to run "Rod" without running Rod.

Not sure about the Cannonist and Shushers.  I am thinking of making them SB cards and maybe only running a couple Shushers. 

I'm also thinking that if I cut Rod, that means I get to add Vial.  Hide fills the primary reason I run STP/Exile, i.e. DSC.  So that opens me up to go for a heavier creature build.  Plus it works wondering with double colored spells like Believer and Shusher (in this build) and gets around Cannonist.

Part of the reason I run 4 Shaman and 4 Shusher is to make sure to have a high enough Red Permanent count to support the Parasite. This may be a very bad reason, but I want to see if the Parasite is worth it. It may suffer from the same lack of effectiveness as Chains Of Mephistopholes, but I think it could have applications even in a Brainstorm-Restricted Vintage. It really IS the Win Condition for the deck right now and I think that's a problem. Definitely need to have a bigger, badder beater and perhaps Mindcensor could help me out in that regard.

I dunno. I can't help but think that I'm going about this deck all the wrong way and going for the wrong approach for this metagame. Is Parasite worth warping a deck for? Or should I just drop it?

[Troy_Costisick]

If you run the mindscensors, path to exile gets much better.

That is a really good observation!  I really haven't found a RW build I like yet, but when I do, I'm going to keep this in mind.

Peace,

-Troy

[nineisnoone]

I dunno. I can't help but think that I'm going about this deck all the wrong way and going for the wrong approach for this metagame. Is Parasite worth warping a deck for? Or should I just drop it?

I don't really think that it is that good.  It's not Tarmogoyf good.  It's not even Wild Nacatl good, the land requirement is much easier than the permanent requirement.  It's a solid beat/burner, but you can't really value it much higher than an Isamaru.  I was trying to work it into a RWB Hide/Seek deck, but found that I really didn't want the spot just for a beater.  And if I did want a beater, I would just go ahead and play something like Negator. 

I think it would work in a more aggressive deck.  It's not strong enough to be a leverage point of  a deck like Tarmogoyf is, but it can certainly synergize with a 20 to the dome strategy.  Maybe a sort of Red Deck Wins that splashes Parasite and Confidant for a late game. Of course, I'm just talking out of my ass here and haven't really even started work on one.  So take it for what it's worth.

[xwt]

Here is my current build. I noticed that Swords to Plowshare was often useless to me... but yet, cutting it entirely is bold. Maybe that playset of Chalices in the board should be swords. The Chalices are there for the times i'm on the play, in order to buy some time for Null Rod to hit.

Does the deck strike you as any good? Is there anything you think is wicked bad? I don't exactly have a game against Ichorid, but it's fine by my book. I wanted to cover Tez, CS, Oath, Painter, TPS, Stax and Fish as the important matchups, and I believe I have a decent matchup against all of those.

There is a particular dissynergy between low thoughness creatures and molten disaster. They still can be sacced to gargadon, and the raw power of MD is worth it by my book.

22 Mana Source
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Barbarian Ring
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
16 Other Spells3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
3 Molten Disaster
4 Null Rod
22 Creatures2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Greater Gargadon
4 Ronom Unicorn
4 Figure of Destiny

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void (could be Swords)
4 Thorn of Amethys
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Shattering Spree
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

[nineisnoone]

Not considering the deck conceptually, but what exactly do you see in cards like Figure of Destiny and Molten Disaster?  Lions/Hounds would be better than Figure and Pyroclasm (or if you really want the uncounterable clause) or Volcanic Fallout. 

I would rather play Swords than the Pony.  Stingscourger is also a possibility.  But some Tinker answer is important. 

[swawagon]

I don't know if Vintage or this deck really needs another straight beater, but FIGURE OF DESTINY can not only be compared to Lions and Hounds, it is simply better in many cases. I was really impressed with it in Standard seeing this thing grow so big, soo quickly. And the fact it gains size and abilities well over Lions/Hounds makes it better. Plus it's casting cost is much easier than Hounds/Lions in this deck too with the heavy red and only white splash. And that fact that FIGURE OF DESTINY can slip in turn one is significant for a potentially very large beater.

[nineisnoone]

It's 2 mana for a 2/2 is more than 1 mana for a 2/2.  You'll likely never make it better than that.  Maybe you'll pay the 3 to make it a 4/4, but really you should have better things to do with your mana.

[xwt]

I entirely disagree

it's a deck with no form of card advantage, so oftentimes, there is nothing better to do than eot pump figure. it grows to 4/4 most of the games it comes out, and sometimes bigger than than. especially with a cannonist out, he's a good clock in itself.

Since white is a splash, I refuse the idea that white 1-drops are better than figure. It's sub-optimal to rely heavily on a splash color for the early-game. FoD is, hands down, the best agressive 1-drop white and red has to offer.

So far, comments have induced me to the following changes:

-4 Ronom Unicorn
+4 StP


Volcanic fallout could be a decent replacement to Molten Disaster, but do I have to remind you that just because it's been spoiled dosen't mean it's vintage-legal? I like the uncounterable damage to the face and the ability to clean the board (aside from FoD, which remains most of the time)