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Author Topic: The Mountains Win Again!  (Read 103247 times)
grungyboy
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« Reply #270 on: June 01, 2009, 02:51:58 pm »

I don't think people have tried tweaking RG beats in a while. I truly think this deck could make a good splash on the current metagame. I'd play it but I simply do not own all the cards for it. Here's what I'd have in mind for an update on the list:

Land (17):
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Mountain

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice Of The Void

Creatures (23):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus Of The Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ohran Viper

Instants (4):
4 Red Elemental Blast

Enchantments (4):
4 Seal Of Primordium

SB
1 Trinisphere
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ancient Grudge

Thoughts? Comments?


i did suggest Ohran Viper in the R/G X-mas Beating thread as an answer to Inky as a replacement for Stingscourger. Also, since the Beatings deck is more of a control/ambush deck, Ohran Viper gives card advantage at the same time. unfortunately, i haven't tested this build as i don't have time to playetest it and i find the deck to be too slow.
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smasher
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« Reply #271 on: June 28, 2009, 03:03:23 pm »

Mox jet tournament yesterday drew in 23 players. Jay webb and myself split in the finals. I used the same deck from last months tournament. Here is the list for reference



4x Dark confidant
4x Jotun grunt
4x aven mindcensor
3x ethersworn canonist
2x gorilla shaman

4x Null rod
4x duress
2x thoughtseize
1x extirpate
3x red blast
3x diabolic edict
2x hide/seek
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor

1x Black lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
4x bloodstained mire
1x windswept heath
1x flooded strand
1x mountain
1x plains
1x swamp
2x scrublands
2x badlands
1x plateau

Sideboard

2x goblin welder
2x viashino heretic
2x hide/seek
2x yixlid jailer
2x engineered explosives
2x dark blast
3x extirpate

I lost round 1 to dark confidant tendrils. Mana screwed both games so I didn't even put up much resistance
Went on to 2-0 the rest of the matches until the top 8 beating out 2 tezz decks and a mana dredge deck which I drew a hand that let me go mox jet strip mine dark confidant. That provided the gas to take game one and get that match without a loss.
Rd. 5 the top tables all draw into top 8

first match of top 8 I play another tezz deck and win the match 2-1 after losing the first game to a top deck key with vault on board already.

top 4 match I get to face my rd 1 tendrils opponent again and this time I get him 2-0. Game one I saw a lot of mana and very few spells but my opponent saw the opposite and couldn't get anything going. I believe he mulled to 5 that game as well. Game 2 was interesting as I got down an early canonist to stall and proceeded to seek my opponent 4 times while doing 2 a turn.

All three time vault opponents I boarded out jotun grunts and brought in 2 hide/seek and 2 extirpate. Didn't want sower or threads to snag my biggest beater and more control cards are always good.
Against the tendrils deck I took out 4 null rods and brought in 2 hide seek and 2 extirpate
Against dredge I brought in my entire sideboard except engineered explosives. I took out 3 canonist, 4 aven mindcensor, 4 null rod, and 2 thoughtseize.

Not really sure what changes to make with the new B/R list becoming active soon. A lot of the current choices should work fine for any decks that come along.
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Myriad Games
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« Reply #272 on: June 28, 2009, 07:44:11 pm »

Congrats on another strong finish. It's great to see The Mountains Winning Again!

 {R} Very Happy {R}
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chief
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« Reply #273 on: June 29, 2009, 02:18:26 pm »

Smasher, why did you bring in heretic against dredge and not explosives?  Explosives seems like a much more relevant card there.
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smasher
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« Reply #274 on: June 29, 2009, 04:53:25 pm »

Smasher, why did you bring in heretic against dredge and not explosives?  Explosives seems like a much more relevant card there.

I wanted answers to chalice of the void with different mana costs. Engineered explosives doesn't help me against chalice at zero if I don't have a wasteland or strip to cast it for zero counters and get around chalice. If I have a wasteland I'm probably using it on bazaar first. Since the dredge player had a mana version I was anticipating facing chalice at both zero and 1 hitting the board. Also in previous games where I have brought in explosives it did nothing but sit on the board, the other cards brought in prevented them from getting anything to remove with it. If It was a manaless dredge deck I would take out red blasts for the explosives as well.

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« Reply #275 on: June 29, 2009, 06:27:55 pm »

Against the tendrils deck I took out 4 null rods and brought in 2 hide seek and 2 extirpate

I am so confused.  What tendrils deck was it?  TPS?  Ad Nauseum?  If it was TPS why board null rods out?  Hell if it was ad nauseum, why board null rods out?  Mana denial is good!
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smasher
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« Reply #276 on: June 29, 2009, 09:27:25 pm »

Against the tendrils deck I took out 4 null rods and brought in 2 hide seek and 2 extirpate

I am so confused.  What tendrils deck was it?  TPS?  Ad Nauseum?  If it was TPS why board null rods out?  Hell if it was ad nauseum, why board null rods out?  Mana denial is good!

Both my rod and canonist get bounced in one spell whether it be hurkyls, rebuild, or chain of vapor. I feel that canonist is stronger than rod if you had to get one or the other on the table. After boarding I would guess at least 4 bounce spells would be in the deck that could nail both in one shot. Canonist plus resolving multiple extirpates and hide/seeks sounded like a strong game plan to me and it played out well. I was really leaning towards leaving in one rod to tutor for if the situation called for it. I'd like to get canonist number 4 in the board for this match.

The tendrils deck was a version with dark confidant and the draw 7's
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smasher
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« Reply #277 on: July 01, 2009, 12:29:06 pm »

After giving the tendrils match some more thought what do you think about this boarding plan?

-3 diabolic edict
-4 jotun grunt

+2 darkblast
+2 hide/seek
+3 extirpate

2 darkblast to handle the dark confidants

Not sure how I feel about removing grunts because they end the game fast but its tough to play it when almost every other card in the deck is better disruption. Not playing optimal disruption will just lose the game before grunt gets any damage in. Maybe leave 2 grunts in and take out the 2x gorilla shaman if we are leaving in null rods.

Maybe I don't need to bring in the extirpates either and could leave in more creatures. Since tendrils is full of 1 ofs the best choices are extirpate on dark ritual or duress/thoughtseize a tendrils and extirpate that. In the few games I have play tested it usually hits dark rit or hits any card and counters a top deck tutor

Tendrils combo doesnt see much play in my area so any input from someone that plays tendrils could comment on what would be most effective. Deck list and sideboard are a couple posts up.

Thanks, Smasher

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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #278 on: July 01, 2009, 02:25:19 pm »

After giving the tendrils match some more thought what do you think about this boarding plan?

-3 diabolic edict
-4 jotun grunt

+2 darkblast
+2 hide/seek
+3 extirpate

2 darkblast to handle the dark confidants

Not sure how I feel about removing grunts because they end the game fast but its tough to play it when almost every other card in the deck is better disruption. Not playing optimal disruption will just lose the game before grunt gets any damage in. Maybe leave 2 grunts in and take out the 2x gorilla shaman if we are leaving in null rods.

Maybe I don't need to bring in the extirpates either and could leave in more creatures. Since tendrils is full of 1 ofs the best choices are extirpate on dark ritual or duress/thoughtseize a tendrils and extirpate that. In the few games I have play tested it usually hits dark rit or hits any card and counters a top deck tutor

Tendrils combo doesnt see much play in my area so any input from someone that plays tendrils could comment on what would be most effective. Deck list and sideboard are a couple posts up.

Thanks, Smasher



Hmmm. . . I dunno Smasher, but if you want some added hotness against Tendrils I might consider some SB Chalice Of The Void. Since Brainstorm's Restriction the card has lost some power, however.

I do think siding out Grunt is OK but I would NOT side out Edict. It is your 1 answer to their plan B of Tinker/Leviathan. I would NEVER side out a card as good at solving Leviathan as Edict. I would try to run the 4th Canonist in the SB as well as perhaps some Thorn Of Amethyst or Glowriders. Your deck can support both just fine. I'd choose 1 of the 2 and run them in the SB as a 3-4 of. Sphere effects truly attack TPS's plan better than anything out there right now. The only reason I don't run them in Selkie-Strike is because I already run a similar effect in Daze and the Thorns would actually hamper my FoW's, Stifles, and Dazes. Your deck would probably welcome Thorn Of Amethyst against TPS.

Edit: If I gave this deck a go at a tournament it'd be this list, for the above reasons I stated.

TMWA

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Creatures (14):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gorilla Shaman

Sorceries (7):
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor

Instants (13):
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Hide // Seek
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst/ Glowrider
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Extirpate
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Darkblast

The one weakness this deck has is a lack of clock. You could splash green for 3-4 Tarmogoyf and 3-4 Qasali Pridemage to help that problem, but then I'm not sure what I'd cut. Then you almost might as well go GWb. I DO really like Hide//Seek's potential, but I don't think it'll work out to well in practice until a really efficient white or black beater is printed ala Tarmogoyf for green.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:41:05 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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vassago
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« Reply #279 on: July 01, 2009, 02:49:38 pm »

I think he sided out edict because he knew the tendrils deck was GWSX, which doesnt play the robot plan. 
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smasher
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« Reply #280 on: August 29, 2009, 09:32:49 pm »

Well it's been a while since this thread has been active but I think its best to post here rather than start a new one. Another tournament took place today and I won mox jet with my new list.

I still feel this deck is a very good choice for a metagame with a lot of blue/time vault decks or even just a mixed metagame with every popular deck represented.

Here is the list before I go into a brief tournament report

4 Dark confidant
4 Aven mindcensor
3 ethersworn canonist
4 jotun grunt
2 gorilla shaman

4 duress
2 thoughtseize
3 diabolic edict
2 red elemental blast
3 hide/seek
3 null rod
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 mox pearl
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
1 underground sea
1 plateau
2 scrubland
2 badlands
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 plains

sideboard

4 extirpate
1 hide/seek
2 yixlid jailer
2 goblin welder
2 viashino heretic
3 darkblast
1 ethersworn canonist

We only had 13 players this time around which is about 10 less than normal. A few regulars couldn't make it and I'm guessing school starting up may have had some impact also.

The metagame breakdown was
2 tendrils decks
4 tezzeret variants
2 dredge decks
5 aggro/control decks of varying colors

My round 1 match was versus a black/white/blue fish deck I won the match 2-1. I would attribute the win largely on the back of dark blast. I boarded out 3 ethersworn canonists 3 null rods and 2 gorilla shamans. I brought in 3 dark blasts, 2 viashino heretics and 3 extirpates. My basic lands also helped a lot here as he was running the full waste/strip package + stifles.

Round 2 I got paired against tezzeret with some ancient grudges. My board plan against tezzeret decks is removing ancestral, time walk, underground sea and 3 canonists. I bring in the 4th hide/seek, 3 extirpates and 2 viashino heretics. I went with this boarding plan the rest of the day since every match after this was tezzeret counting the 2 matches in top 4. It worked great as I only lost 2 games all day versus tezzeret.

One of the losses was me keeping a bad hand that ended up mana screwing me since I never saw my 2nd land. The hand I kept was 1 fetchland, 2 duress, 1 extirpate, 2 dark confidant, and a null rod. I figured between first and 2nd turn duresses It would buy me the time to get a 2nd land drop.

The other loss was due to my opponent drawing into an absurd amount of counter magic then landing an inkwell. My turn 1 of black mana land into duress was mana leaked, I then dropped lotus and tried to play aven mindcensor. That one got forced. My next turn play of null rod met a mana drain. I was out of gas at this point and my opponent had resolved multiple draw spells to pull far ahead and keep his inkwell protected.

Most recent additions to the deck are the underground sea, time walk, and ancestral recall.

Changes I plan to make are pyroblasts instead of red elemental blast. A couple reasons for this are due to pyroblast being castable on the upkeep to keep jotun grunt alive without needed an actual blue target. The other reason is people naming cards with meddling mage in my experience call red elemental blast not pyroblast (assuming they didn't already see what one you are playing).

I took a null rod out for a hide/seek so I'm running 3/3 split now. I think this is the right call since both spells are 2 mana and can deal with time vault. Hide/seek happens to be better against a varied metagame and is great in multiples. Null rod is great as well but is worse in multiples and dead versus fish and dredge decks. More artifact bounce/kill is being main decked and side boarded now as well so Hide/seek is hands down better post board when they have access to 6+ null rod answers. Hide/Seek also answers top deck tutors which is a savage beating when you remove a bomb from their deck and shuffle away a bomb as well. The lifegain part of the spell is like a time walk against fish decks and often lets you win the damage race. Siding out null rods while leaving in hide/seek allows you to keep an answer to jitte or other annoying artifacts/enchantments out of the board.

I will probably go with a 3/3 duress and thoughtseize package over the 4/2 configuration I have now. I like the extra creature answer and the -2 life is not a big deal most of the time with seek gaining me life.

I miss the 4th wasteland but after adding in the blue cards I had to cut one to get in the underground sea. I am going to try and get it back in the deck without removing any colored sources of mana. I'm still at 61 cards also which isn't all bad but seems optimal to get that number down to 60 somehow.

Unfortunately we don't see shop decks too often in our meta but I like to keep stuff for them if they do happen to show up. I feel pretty good against them after the sideboard with 2 gorilla shaman, 2 goblin welder, 2 viashino heretic, 4 hide/seek, 3 dark blast, 4 extirpate, 3 diabolic edict, and 4 jotun grunt. Also relevant is the fact that I run 3 basics. The only cards I really have just for them are the joblin welders. Everything else can be useful in other matches. This is also true of the yixlid jailers for dredge being the only card truly devoted to that match with other cards being useful elsewhere.



Also of note I took this deck to gencon but failed to get anywhere due to bad pairings. At gencon I faced dredge round 1 which I won the match 2-0. I opened with strip on his bazaar followed up by jotun grunt a turn later and that was game 1. Game 2 I had a lot of hate come in from the board and it would have been awkward if I lost that game. Game 2 it helped that between his mulls and serum powder mulls he removed 2 narcomoebas and his hand that he kept had a 3rd narco in hand.

Rd.2 I faced a black/white/blue fish list that I beat game 1 then I got my guys sowered game 2 and got mana screwed game 3 for the match loss.

Rd. 3 I faced a monoblack control deck which is a pretty bad matchup for me. Probably the worst matchup I could face other than maybe some r/g/w zoo style deck. His deck consisted of something like duress, thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, mishra's factory/crucible/wasteland, tombstalkers, dark rits, diabolic edicts, smallpox and a few restricted black cards. I think we went to game 3 but I may have lost this one 0-2.

This left me at a 1-2 record which was bad enough for me to drop and go work the dealers over for some new type 1 pimpage. Wish I could have faced some time vault decks and/or more dredge and shops decks.

Any questions are welcome and may the Mountains continue winning for you as they have for me.

-Smasher




Edit: The polluted delta should be replaced by a 2nd flooded strand.




« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 11:19:03 pm by smasher » Logged

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Myriad Games
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« Reply #281 on: August 29, 2009, 11:06:02 pm »

Congratulations on another well-earned victory, Smasher!

Mike Bergeron just made Top 4 at a 27-player event today with a mono-red build of Mountains, so it certainly seems that they're alive and well.
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« Reply #282 on: August 30, 2009, 07:04:36 am »

Are the some links to these two tournaments yet?  I'd be really interested in looking at the top 8.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #283 on: August 30, 2009, 07:47:07 am »

Are the some links to these two tournaments yet?  I'd be really interested in looking at the top 8.

Peace,

-Troy
2nd that.
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smasher
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« Reply #284 on: August 30, 2009, 03:04:43 pm »

Here is the link to yesterday's tournament I played in.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38711.0

Top 4 consisted of 3 tezz decks and myself.
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« Reply #285 on: August 30, 2009, 05:07:15 pm »

Are the some links to these two tournaments yet?  I'd be really interested in looking at the top 8.

Peace,

-Troy

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38350.0


there you go!
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #286 on: August 30, 2009, 10:25:25 pm »

Congrats on 3rd Mike!

Hey all! So it's been a long time since I've contemplated this deck, but I'm curious to know what people think of Hide//Seek right now and whether or not it can be an answer to Vault//Key decks.

I've been brainstorming ideas for a beats deck that would include Hide//Seek, and I've come up with the unthinkable. A creature deck that DOESN'T run Null Rod! Whaaaa? you might say. I was talking with Vinny Forino at a recent tournament and he agreed that Beats decks right now just don't quite cut the mustard. I'd like to propose something COMPLETELY different as a possible metagame tool. This decklist is sheer speculation and is not yet tested:

The Chemists Lab

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Aether Vial
3 Pithing Needle

Creatures (23):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Figure Of Destiny
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Aven Mindcensor

Sorceries (4):
4 Cabal Therapy

Instants (4):
4 Hide // Seek

SB
3 Swords To Plowshares
2 Yixlid Jailer
3 Planar Void
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Sacred Ground
4 Pyroblast


I'd like some feedback on the deck and certainly on the SB as that is very up in the air.

-Storm
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 02:55:32 pm by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #287 on: August 30, 2009, 10:41:20 pm »

storm,
interesting that you would say that.  Friday night before the event, Myriad (dan) and I were building decks, and my first words were "I'm not running null rod" and the response was exactly like I expected- "Whaaaaa??? thats our best card!"  Fortunately Dan had too much work to do to argue with me, and I got my way. 

I love the idea.  Aether vial is such a beating to drain and force decks, and hide/seek is one of my favorite cards to play all time.  Im going to have to build and play with it.
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« Reply #288 on: August 30, 2009, 10:44:42 pm »

storm,
interesting that you would say that.  Friday night before the event, Myriad (dan) and I were building decks, and my first words were "I'm not running null rod" and the response was exactly like I expected- "Whaaaaa??? thats our best card!"  Fortunately Dan had too much work to do to argue with me, and I got my way. 

I love the idea.  Aether vial is such a beating to drain and force decks, and hide/seek is one of my favorite cards to play all time.  Im going to have to build and play with it.

I've also heard from some prominent Shop players that they hate to see a resolved Turn 1 Aether Vial. It makes their Spheres much much worse. Forino was the one who ultimately convinced me to give Figure Of Destiny a try. I'm still not sold on the card, but it does seem like an interesting alternative to Splashing for Goyf as a finisher. The one thing I'd like to see this deck have is a better manabase. Can anyone help with that? Do I simply need to cut another Waste or something?
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« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2009, 08:43:09 am »

Why are you using the Cabal Therapies instead of Duress/Thoughtseize?  To get rid of your Confidants in case you're low on life?
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« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2009, 11:11:29 am »

The one thing I'd like to see this deck have is a better manabase. Can anyone help with that? Do I simply need to cut another Waste or something?

Land (18):
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl


Your mana base is almost identical to mine and I rarely have issues with it. You have 2x mountains and a swamp where I run 1 of each basic.

You also have vials which helps. If you ran duress/thoughtseize over cabal therapies you would have more turn one plays. Not sure how much I like running out cabal therapy blind turn 1.

If you grab a basic land off the first fetch then you can grab a dual 2nd time around giving you all your colors. Being wastelanded and still having a basic in play isn't horrible.

Your figure of destiny looks like it will be very difficult to grow beyond a 4/4 without the aid of black lotus. I would consider another creature in its place.

In regards to the sideboard unless swords is there mainly for fish/shop matches I would prefer diabolic edict as an inkwell answer. Swords on ichorids seems alright also but I think it's slow allowing them to start returning ichorids in the first place. I don't like tormod's crypt either since chalice on zero is very common from dredge.

Not sure how you feel about extirpate but I'm a fan of the card. I've been playing it a while and I end up boarding it in against most decks I face. Outside of dredge matches you can yank out the biggest creature fish decks play, it's pretty good vs oath, and darkblast is seeing a lot of play either 1 of maindeck or some in the board along with ancient grudges so extirpate really helps here. Against shop decks with crucible and/or welder I like extirpate as well. I think darkblast in your board could be better than mogg fanatics. This probably needs more testing to see which is the best.

Not sure how I feel about the maindeck as I don't have time to test it right now. It seems you are focusing on creatures that make vial better. How is the deck running when you don't get the vial down quick enough to make an impact.

Aven mindcensor has been real good for me recently. Specifically if I can cast it turn 1 off lotus or turn 2 off land,land,mox. If this doesn't come up its still pretty nice in basically being a 2 power hasted flyer which can definately win races when the opponent doesn't factor in that extra damage when you drop it on their eot.

I agree with you that Hide/seek is really good right now. It gives you game versus shop, oath, time vault, even creature decks from the lifegain. Now that decks are focused on tutoring up bombs instead of a mass of draw spells you get to wreck top deck tutors and really slow down their entire game plan. Artifact bounce and kill cards are being played in excess right now so just yanking that time vault from the deck is far better than simply null rodding or needling the combo til they answer your artifact and win.

For the same reason I don't care for canonist all that much being artifact. I still mainboard it because there isn't as many answers game 1's. Unless I'm facting storm combo I board them out in subsequent games because they will just answer canonist then go broken with yawg will.

23 creatures is quite a few and again vial is probably a factor in the high creature count but I think you could still cut a couple for some restricted tutors.
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« Reply #291 on: September 01, 2009, 07:23:40 am »

This may very well be the worst suggestion yet, but has anyone tried this guy against the plethora of Tezz decks?

Burning-Tree Shaman 1GR

Oracle Text:
Whenever a player plays an activated ability that isn't a mana ability, Burning-Tree Shaman deals 1 damage to that player.

3/4

So Tezz + Vault = 2 damage per turn right?

My biggest issues from the tourney: I need to get a way to bounce sphinx or inky, or collosus, whom I did not see.
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« Reply #292 on: September 01, 2009, 09:27:26 am »

I' m trying to fit burning tree shaman with magus of the moon and gorilla shaman in a "aggrocontrol" deck, but it seems difficult.

creatures-24
4-magus of the moon
3-simian spirit guide
3-gorilla shaman
2-goblin welder
2-elvish spirit guide
4-tarmogoyf
3-tin street holligan
4-burning tree shaman

instants & sorceries-5
2-reb
2-pyroblast
1-lava dart

artifacts-9
4-thorn of ametyst
3-null rod
1-sol ring
1-mana crypt

enchantments-4
2-blood moon
2-choke

lands-18
1-strip mine
3-wasteland
3-ancient tom
4-wooden hillfoots
4-taiga
1-mountain
2-forest

sideboard
2-lava dart
3-shattering spree
4-pyrostatic pillar
4-mogg fanatic
2-tormod's crypt



just a quick idea...
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« Reply #293 on: September 01, 2009, 11:08:14 am »

I have been thinking of trying out burning tree shaman for a while now but I'm not ready to build a deck with green cards. I like jotun grunt over tarmogoyf.

Burning tree shaman seems like a decent card in an aggro control deck since fetches are now going to do 2 damage. top becomes hard to use, it hits the key/vault/tezz as already mentioned. LoA still sees a lot of play and some lists are running welders now. If you can slow the game down long enough to get in a few damage and drop this guy then they won't have very many extra turns before they don't have life to keep going. It is nice he evades artifact removal, darkblast, fire/ice. Outside of a counterspell on him or echoing truth he is truly hard to deal with.

The main issue I see with this card is the lack of use it has in other matches like dredge, tendrils, fish, and possibly shops depending on their build.

I'm curious to see how a list with this guy runs. After some playtesting please report back.  Smile

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« Reply #294 on: September 01, 2009, 02:18:24 pm »

Looking at that list, what's the consensus on the viability of a vintage port of Dragon Stompy?   Something like Root Maze + Null Rod + Choke + Spheres?
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« Reply #295 on: September 02, 2009, 07:15:16 pm »

If Burning Tree Shaman is being looked at, I think it might be a good idea to consider Sulfuric Vortex. In addition to stopping Key+Vault from just winning, it stops one of the worst parts of Sphinx. I almost ran them last week in Tewksbury and missed them all day.
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« Reply #296 on: September 05, 2009, 11:43:43 am »

The main issue I see with burning tree shaman is the lack of use it has in other matches like dredge, tendrils, fish, and possibly shops depending on their build.

dredge has bazaar and fatestitcher, but thats prob only 3-5 damage in course of game max.
tendrils has numerous fetchlands, and if they are running adnauseum, then every point counts.
its good vs fish just by virtue of being 3/4, and hurting fetchlands
stax has wastestrip, welder, bazaar as a default, and possibly b-ring/cabalpit, karn, trike, powder keg, memory jar, time-volt, diving top, gorilla shaman. Id be scared of burning tree w stax.

overall worth it if you can justify 3 drops
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« Reply #297 on: September 06, 2009, 11:13:22 am »

I know some folks are thinkin it, but new fetches should definitely have an impact on the playability of this archetype.

Imagine this old decklist of mine with W/B fetches available:

TMWA

Land (18):
4 W/B Fetchland
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
4 Aether Vial
3 Pithing Needle

Creatures (23):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Figure Of Destiny
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Aven Mindcensor

Sorceries (4):
4 Cabal Therapy

Instants (4):
4 Hide // Seek

SB
3 Swords To Plowshares
4 Planar Void
2 Sacred Ground
2 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap

The main weaknesses of this deck were its shotty manabase and its lack of game against FoW decks that can protect their early plays. Mindbreak Trap gives you an answer to randomturn1combo.dec from the SB and Sacred Ground + Enemy B/W fetches give you more game against Waste/Strip and Crucible locks. I dunno if this deck is truly viable, but I'll certainly be testing it more when W/B fetches are released (hopefully in Zendikar and not a later expansion from the block).

Thoughts on if such a deck could make a splash? Hide//Seek has long struck me as a good card with awkward colors. With enemy fetches the colors are no longer awkward.

-Storm

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« Reply #298 on: September 06, 2009, 12:35:39 pm »

Enemy fetches help 3 color builds. having easier access to fetching all your basics is the best part of it.

I've been considering Mindbreak trap for fish builds. I'm not sure if it belongs in a deck that won't ever play it without the trap cost being activated. I would assume certain metagames would allow this to be done. I'd just hate to see situations where a pyroblast would save you and the trap card can't be played.
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« Reply #299 on: September 06, 2009, 09:46:35 pm »

...Sacred Ground + Enemy B/W fetches give you more game against Waste/Strip and Crucible locks.

I think you may find that Extirpate and Pithing Needle allow you a bit more versatility while solving the same challenges.

I played Sacred Ground in the sideboard of HSC for the same reasons. Meadbert and I went back-and-forth for months about it and he eventually convinced me to drop them. Sacred Ground isn't something you, generally speaking, play versus non-Shop decks with Wastelands but Needle and Extirpate are. I should note that I run a bit more artifact removal than the list you presented against Shop decks to compliment this line of play.


Thoughts on if such a deck could make a splash?

Hide//Seek has been a great card in Vintage since it was printed. As the blue decks de jour come to rely more and more on tutors and other one-ofs, its potential impact increases. I think many of the decks built around Hide//Seek have a lot of potential to catch unprepared opponents off guard and its only a matter of time before someone breaks thru with it at a large event.

Having said that I'm not sure what, or if, there's an optimal build of the deck. I'm not a huge fan of some the permanents that attempt to limit my opponent's game plan (Rod, Canonist, Mindcensor) as they are slow and can be played around or bounced when my opponent is ready to win (or about to lose). Instead I prefer a more reactive version of the deck that's less redundant but offers me a little more versatility over the metagame as a whole relying more on instants, sorceries, and tutorable one-ofs with creatures doing the cleanup afterward.

//edit: grammar
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 10:45:06 pm by Zombie Shakespeare » Logged

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