The Mountains Win Again!

[Myriad Games]

This is the latest thread devoted to the swath of Vintage decks known as The Mountains Win Again.

You can locate the most recent previous thread here and the prior discussion threads here and here.

The Mountains Win Again began as a humble Ankh-Sligh-Burn deck, developed into Mono Red Control, added white to formally become known as The Mountains Win Again, transformed into three color by adding black, and has experimented with a variety of other combinations and strategies since then, with contributions and developments from a host of different players and deck builders. A ed/black build experienced some success with a Top 4 appearance at a 48 player tournament and 10th place out of 131 players in the Vintage Championships at GenCon. Tournament reports from some previous events are located here

The moniker of The Mountains Win Again, abbreviated as TMWA, has come to refer to a wide variety of decks, much like the Fish title has been applied to most creature based strategies that utilize blue. Mountains is perhaps best described as non-blue tempo or aggro-control. I believe this type of non-traditional Vintage deck development opens up a wide variety of design space by not limiting deck building to pre-existing archetypes. The deck constantly evolves and changes to suit the current metagame. Examples of decks that fit in that definition are Zombie Shakespeare's Hide/Seek Control, Polynomial P's PMITA Prison, Vroman's Lava Grunts, and Almighty's PONIES!!!

My own development of The Mountains Win Again began in June of 2005 and version 1.8 debuted in 9th place at the 40 Dual Land Tournament in West Springfield. I use a new version number for each event I play in and I'm currently working on version 46.x. I always have a blast developing and testing the deck and traveling about to champion the cause of The Mountains at various events. I invite all like-minded players to join me in an invigorating discussion and encourage everyone who has an inkling to try the deck to pilot it at a few events and report your results here.

During the last six to nine months, I haven't been playing much due to a lack of interest and my inability to play Magic well enough to pilot TMWA competitively in the current environment. Without fully realizing it until yesterday, one of my major frustrations was playing against the same cards repeatedly. Regardless of who I was playing against, knowing that 60-90% of my opponent's deck would likely be the same shell of blue cards and mana sources only allowed for a minor variation in how they would smash my face. Many tournaments ended up with my opponents playing a bunch of the same blue cards and dispatching me in short order. While I don't particular enjoy losing, I can take responsibility for my part in that process. The more frustrating issue was that I was almost guaranteed to see the same cards over and over (Brainstorm, Force of Will, Merchant Scroll, Gush, Ancestral Recall, Misdirection, Ponder etc.) with a slight variation in how they were played and what particular card ended the game. Eventually, as with many games, I got tired of playing the same one over and over again. Knowing that my other choice was to adopt one of those decks and the associated play style, I simply moved Vintage down the list of priorities. Then came June 1st, 2008, with a giant uncounterable Red Elemental Blast from the DCI, revolutionizing the Vintage format. The sweeping, unprecedented, unexpected changes were refreshing and invigorating. They made me realize, with a kindly reminder from a certain Top Secret Fox, that it was time for a new thread dedicated to TMWA, to explore this brave new world of Vintage. I'm very much looking forward to continuing the development of TMWA in this new environment, and I welcome all kindred Mountain Men who care to join me.

The make this experience a bit more fun, I've issued a bounty on tournament victories with The Mountains Win Again. Any version of TMWA that makes Top 8 at a tournament with 24 or more players will be eligible for a special prize (foil, foreign, etc) from Myriad Games. Prizes will be customized to suit the individual winners tastes. This bounty applies to all events posted on The Mana Drain until further notice. If in doubt about whether or not your concoction will qualify, simply PM myriadgames and I'll review your list. Once you experience The Mountains Winning Again, simply PM myriadgames with your tournament results and we'll arrange for your prize.

Thank you in advance for joining the discussion and may The Mountains Win Again!

[wiley]

What are your thoughts on upcoming TMWA builds Dan?  Would you think that a deck utilizing magus of the moon, mox monkies, glowriders, mindcensors, ankh and burn would do well?  What would you say to running bazaar of baghdad, replenish, form of the dragon and solitary confinement?

TMWA was one of my favorite decks coming back into vintage aroung future sight and I would love for it to come back as a force once again.  As I have stated before I believe that land destruction and discard are the current top strategies for the format, would running seismic mage or the gay dwarf be out of the question?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Here is where I’ll start with TMWA post-June 20:

Creatures 
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Elvish Spirit Guide   
4   Magus of the Moon   
4   Martyr of Ashes
4   Tarmogoyf   
3   Atog   

Spells 
3  Dead/Gone

Enchantments 
2   Blood Moon

Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus   
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mana Crypt   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire   
1   Sol Ring   
4   Sphere of Resistance   
4   Thorn of Amethyst   
1   Trinisphere   

Lands 
1   Ancient Tomb   
1   Tolarian Academy
2   Forest   
2   Gemstone Mine   
4   Great Furnace   
4   Taiga   

Sideboard     (15 cards) 
4   Ingot Chewer   
1   Dead/Gone   
4   Pithing Needle   
4   Tormod's Crypt
2   Red Elemental Blast

I’ll go through and explain each of my choices:

ESG/SSG:  Speed is the name of the game when Gush rotates out.  Gush slowed the format down and now that it will be lost, I anticipate that the format will gravitate toward super-fast combo.  The spirit guides provide fast, uncounterable, surprise mana that can be used to power out devastating cards turn 1.  They also double as Grey Ogres if I need some aggro.

Magus of the Moon:  With decks relying more on a larger mana base, turning to the Magus is a natural.  It will wreck Ichorid and slow down MUD/Stax.

Martyr of Ashes:  This is really one of the open slots in the deck build.  I’m anticipating a lot of Ichorid decks, and this card handles all my problems with that deck in one little package.  It can wipe the board of zombie tokens at instant speed as well as put a creature in my graveyard to remove all the Bridges from Below from the game in my opponent’s graveyard.  He’s also quite effective vs. Goblins.  From time to time, I’ve switched him out for Aether Flash or Gorilla Shaman.

Tarmogoyf:  No better beater IMO.

Atog:  With all the heavy artifact mana in my deck, I need a way to convert it to something else in the late game.  Atog can take my now useless Moxen, Mana Crypt, and Great Furnaces and turn them into 2 damage each.  A very nice finisher.

Dead/Gone:  I also anticipate a lot Oath and Dark Confidants in the future.  Dead/Gone is a solid card that can kill weak toughness creatures like Dark Confidant, Flame-tongue Kavu, and Meddling Mage while bouncing big creatures like Platinum Angel, Darksteel Colossus, and Tidespout Tyrant to its owner’s hand.  It’s very versatile for red.

Blood Moon:  4 Magi are not enough.  2 extra Blood Moon ensures that I get a moon effect every game. (hence the reason I consider this deck: The Mountains Win Again)

Louts/Mox/Mana Crypt/Sol Ring:  Fast mana is going to be the key in the future meta, I’m running everything except Grim Monolith and Mana Vault.  Since they can later be converted to damage, I’m not diluting my deck to much by running this many artifact mana sources.

9Sphere:  For too long 9Sphere has been relegated to shop decks.  I see no reason for that.  Red and Green can produce gobs of mana and have better card selections vs. a diverse field of decks than something like MUD does.  I use these cards to slow down my opponent until I can get a Goyf or Atog into play.  With all my mana acceleration, it’s quite easy to cast and operate under the spheres.

Ancient Tomb:  I only run 1.  I’ve never wanted more for as long as I’ve been playing this build (essentially 10 months now). Getting too many reduces my life too fast, but getting this one with only 1 other mana source makes a near guarantee I can play something powerful turn 1 like a Magus, Blood Moon, or Trinisphere.

Tolarian Academy:  With the high number of artifacts and the number of Spheres in the deck, this land fits quite well in a red deck. 

Forest:  With so many moon effects, I need to be able to cast Tarmogoyf even if I have a moon effect in play.  2 basic forests + 4 ESG + 2 Lotuses + 1 Mox Emerald pretty much ensure I can cast these creatures any time I want.

Gemstone Mine:  I like these over City of Brass since they can die if I want them to and pump up my Tarmogoyf.

Great Furnace:  Sacrifice a Great Furnace to my Atog, give both it and my Goyf +2/+2.  Not bad, eh?

Taiga: 4 dual lands is all I really feel I need.  Those on the cheap could play Stomping Ground or Pain Lands instead.

In the Sideboard:

Ingot Chewer: This can be a game changer.  For 1 red mana I can blow up Stax’s key card.  It’s still easy to pay its evoke cost with a sphere or two out.  Also, I can hard cast the thing and get a small card advantage for my trouble.

Dead/Gone:  3 in the main, 1 in the board makes sure that I have one whenever I need it.

Pithing Needle: It’s really here vs. Stax and Ichorid.  Shuts off Bazaar and Welder and even Fetch lands if I need to.

Tormod’s Crypt: Anti-ichorid, anti-Yawgs Win hate

Red Elemental Blast:  I used to have 4-6 blasts in my SB.  Not sure I need to with 9Spheres in the main and the recent restrictions knocking out so many good blue cards.  It’ll be interesting to see how much utility these have going forward.

Peace,

-Troy

[Almighty]

I feel this deck is best served as a generic aggro deck until a meta forms that can be properly hated out.

[mike_bergeron]

This is the latest thread devoted to the swath of Vintage decks known as The Mountains Win Again.

You can locate the most recent previous thread here and the prior discussion threads here and here.

The Mountains Win Again began as a humble Ankh-Sligh-Burn deck, developed into Mono Red Control, added white to formally become known as The Mountains Win Again, transformed into three color by adding black, and has experimented with a variety of other combinations and strategies since then, with contributions and developments from a host of different players and deck builders. A ed/black build experienced some success with a Top 4 appearance at a 48 player tournament and 10th place out of 131 players in the Vintage Championships at GenCon. Tournament reports from some previous events are located here

The moniker of The Mountains Win Again, abbreviated as TMWA, has come to refer to a wide variety of decks, much like the Fish title has been applied to most creature based strategies that utilize blue. Mountains is perhaps best described as non-blue tempo or aggro-control. I believe this type of non-traditional Vintage deck development opens up a wide variety of design space by not limiting deck building to pre-existing archetypes. The deck constantly evolves and changes to suit the current metagame. Examples of decks that fit in that definition are Zombie Shakespeare's Hide/Seek Control, Polynomial P's PMITA Prison, Vroman's Lava Grunts, and Almighty's PONIES!!!

My own development of The Mountains Win Again began in June of 2005 and version 1.8 debuted in 9th place at the 40 Dual Land Tournament in West Springfield. I use a new version number for each event I play in and I'm currently working on version 46.x. I always have a blast developing and testing the deck and traveling about to champion the cause of The Mountains at various events. I invite all like-minded players to join me in an invigorating discussion and encourage everyone who has an inkling to try the deck to pilot it at a few events and report your results here.

During the last six to nine months, I haven't been playing much due to a lack of interest and my inability to play Magic well enough to pilot TMWA competitively in the current environment. Without fully realizing it until yesterday, one of my major frustrations was playing against the same cards repeatedly. Regardless of who I was playing against, knowing that 60-90% of my opponent's deck would likely be the same shell of blue cards and mana sources only allowed for a minor variation in how they would smash my face. Many tournaments ended up with my opponents playing a bunch of the same blue cards and dispatching me in short order. While I don't particular enjoy losing, I can take responsibility for my part in that process. The more frustrating issue was that I was almost guaranteed to see the same cards over and over (Brainstorm, Force of Will, Merchant Scroll, Gush, Ancestral Recall, Misdirection, Ponder etc.) with a slight variation in how they were played and what particular card ended the game. Eventually, as with many games, I got tired of playing the same one over and over again. Knowing that my other choice was to adopt one of those decks and the associated play style, I simply moved Vintage down the list of priorities. Then came June 1st, 2008, with a giant uncounterable Red Elemental Blast from the DCI, revolutionizing the Vintage format. The sweeping, unprecedented, unexpected changes were refreshing and invigorating. They made me realize, with a kindly reminder from a certain Top Secret Fox, that it was time for a new thread dedicated to TMWA, to explore this brave new world of Vintage. I'm very much looking forward to continuing the development of TMWA in this new environment, and I welcome all kindred Mountain Men who care to join me.

The make this experience a bit more fun, I've issued a bounty on tournament victories with The Mountains Win Again. Any version of TMWA that makes Top 8 at a tournament with 24 or more players will be eligible for a special prize (foil, foreign, etc) from Myriad Games. Prizes will be customized to suit the individual winners tastes. This bounty applies to all events posted on The Mana Drain until further notice. If in doubt about whether or not your concoction will qualify, simply PM myriadgames and I'll review your list. Once you experience The Mountains Winning Again, simply PM myriadgames with your tournament results and we'll arrange for your prize.

Thank you in advance for joining the discussion and may The Mountains Win Again!

Well Said.

here are my first thoughts on the new golden age of vintage and how mountains can truly reign supreme:

What are we fighting against? (other than the round clock, which is now much longer due to the loss of 5 minute brainstorms)

(ripped from article by Steve O'Connell, thanks)
-Painters Servant type combo, mud and unmud
-Workshop sphere decks
-workshop aggro decks
-Ichorid, mana'd and manaless
-Mana Drain Control Deck
-slaver
-tog
-deez naughts

Other considerations:
-gobbos
-oath
-dragon
-sui-black
-landstill

So going back to original builds of TMWA, some cards suddenly yell out "PLAY ME I LIKE MAGIC TOO"!!!

-Null Rod (slaver, painter, workshop)
-Swords to the Plowshares (hello mr. collosus, havent seen you in a while!)
-Gorilla Shaman/Vandal- different, but will there be more moxen in play like the huge mana decks of old?
-Tormod's Crypt (need better answers for Ichorid, but this helps!)
-hide/seek (colossus is back, you better believe it...)

All these thoughts are making me happy. I love playing a lot of these cards, and with recent additions, I am really looking forward to the next VINTAGE tournament.

However, at this point, I think the "hate" part of people's description should be dropped.  This deck can and will stand on its own, especially with the format becoming less stable with the subtractions of super sifters b-storm and ponder.

Let the golden age start.

[TopSecret]

Troy, would the sideboard Ingot Chewers be better as Shattering Sprees?

Have you considered sideboard or maindeck Chalice of the Void?
Your deck doesn't lose much by setting Chalice @ one.
It can also be set @ 0 to insure the opponent doesn't play a mox to get out of the Magus softlock.


As for which build of TMWA could be used...
I think that Almighty's "Ponies!!!" will be very good during the initial rumblings of the post-Brainstorm format.
Flash was it's worst matchup, and that's gone, so what's left to beat it?


I'll be considering other alternatives.
Although playing a lot of "hate" won't be a good idea until the metagame settles,
I think that TMWA will be more viable as a whole,
so I'm not counting out any current or past iterations.

[rkmancer]

Although playing a lot of "hate" won't be a good idea until the metagame settles,

Agreed, I'll wait until the meta fixed and then build my mountain 

[Almighty]

As for which build of TMWA could be used...
I think that Almighty's "Ponies!!!" will be very good during the initial rumblings of the post-Brainstorm format.
Flash was it's worst matchup, and that's gone, so what's left to beat it?

That deck idea is unfortunately scrapped indefinitely. The new meta emerging will probably be much harder to solve. I built and refined that deck to attack the 45 cards that appeared in the decks of every blue mage, and now that that meta is in the past, TMWA: PONIES!!! is no more. As has been pointed out in other threads, the previous metagame used Brainstorm and Ponder to "cheat" their manabases. My build exploited that in the worst way and I found lots of success against those.

In the meantime, BigGuys.dec might be a decent choice with classic disruption elements in the form of mana denial, except that Null Rod may become a new toy for us red mages. Here is a starting point for a deck with heavy focus on mana denial:

Creatures

4x Tin Street hooligan
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Glowrider
3x Flametoungue Kavu
3x Ingot Chewer

4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thorn of Amethyst

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
4x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Plains
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal



With all the mana denial aspects to it, along with a ton of dudes, this deck should eat Drains up for lunch. With all the artifact munchies, Shops will be the supper. With all of the creature kill, aggro will be dessert. Combo may be worrisome, but with the deck packing 8 spheres along with 4 rods, it should be able to play the prison game fairly well.

This shell is the starting point I plan on using. Play it like stax, except you lock pieces can attack too. 

[mike_bergeron]

As for which build of TMWA could be used...
I think that Almighty's "Ponies!!!" will be very good during the initial rumblings of the post-Brainstorm format.
Flash was it's worst matchup, and that's gone, so what's left to beat it?

That deck idea is unfortunately scrapped indefinitely. The new meta emerging will probably be much harder to solve. I built and refined that deck to attack the 45 cards that appeared in the decks of every blue mage, and now that that meta is in the past, TMWA: PONIES!!! is no more. As has been pointed out in other threads, the previous metagame used Brainstorm and Ponder to "cheat" their manabases. My build exploited that in the worst way and I found lots of success against those.

In the meantime, BigGuys.dec might be a decent choice with classic disruption elements in the form of mana denial, except that Null Rod may become a new toy for us red mages. Here is a starting point for a deck with heavy focus on mana denial:

Creatures

4x Tin Street hooligan
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Aven Mindcensor
4x Glowrider
3x Flametoungue Kavu
3x Ingot Chewer

4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thorn of Amethyst

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
4x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Plains
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal



With all the mana denial aspects to it, along with a ton of dudes, this deck should eat Drains up for lunch. With all the artifact munchies, Shops will be the supper. With all of the creature kill, aggro will be dessert. Combo may be worrisome, but with the deck packing 8 spheres along with 4 rods, it should be able to play the prison game fairly well.

This shell is the starting point I plan on using. Play it like stax, except you lock pieces can attack too. 

I like your ideas. However, is black stronger than white right now?

Creatures

4x Tin Street hooligan
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Aven Mindcensor (phyrexian negator?)
4x Glowrider  (dark confidant?)
3x Flametoungue Kavu (vexing shusher?)
3x Ingot Chewer (goblin vandal?)

4x Null Rod (playing 7 artifact sources with rod may hurt)
4x Swords to Plowshares (extirpate/ seal of cleansing?)
4x Thorn of Amethyst

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Windswept Heath
3x Savannah
4x Plateau
1x Taiga
1x Plains
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Lotus Petal

Also, I have always been lukewarm on wasteland. I think the thought of having wasteland is more important than actually playing it. In many mountains variations I ran for months, my opponents would never bring in a dual off a fetch against me, although I rarely played wasteland. it was the fact i MAY have them that caused this. so, i may do testing with a better overall mana base instead of playing wastelands. 

I think Black/Red/Green could be a powerhouse!

I also expiremented a while back with a green/white/black deck that grew dryads through cheap spells like duress and extirpate. it was hella fun, but flash and gush storm were not favorable. I may loom back at that one.

[mike_bergeron]

Also, here is a deck not totally affected by the mass-ban-stick of wizards that we could reasonably expect to play against in a tournament coming to you!

Drain Tendrils (from discussion in thread)

2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

1 Sensei's Divining Top OR LoA
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gush
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Accumulated Knowledge

2 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
   
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall


It looks like AK/Intuition is back in some form, as well as thirst for knowledge to pump up a huge yawg will.  This is why I think Vexing Shusher should be an auto include, and makes for a heck of a turn one drop if you can manage the right mana. Also, big giant robot is back with a vengeance!

[overseer1234]

Hi, I'm new here, 1st post, go me  !!!

To make a long story short: I've been playing legacy for about 3 years now and some friends tried to get me into vintage.

Some time ago I stumbled over this decklist:
Main Deck:
4x     Æther Vial 
4x    Dark Confidant
3x    Gorilla Shaman
3x    Magus of the Moon    
4x    Mogg Fanatic
3x    Simian Spirit Guide    
3x    Aven Mindcensor    
3x    Jotun Grunt
4x    Samurai of the Pale Curtain    
4x    Swords to Plowshares    
2x    Badlands    
4x    Bloodstained Mire    
1x    Mountain    
2x    Plains
3x    Plateau    
1x    Scrubland    
1x    Swamp
2x    Windswept Heath    
2x    Wooded Foothills    
3x    Duress    
4x    Thoughtseize    

Sideboard
2x    Umezawa’s Jitte    
4x    Leyline of the Void    
2x    Smother    
2x    Pyroblast
2x    Pyrokinesis    
1x    Rack and Ruin    
2x    Disenchant

Seems the archtype was TMWA (M being the Mindcensor ), which led me to this forum, and I wondered if this list was any good for someone that is just getting into vintage ( like me).

I don't have the money for power (however on longer terms I might buy some on color moxes...), and since I don't have any green duals, green/tarmogoyf isn't really an option for me...


P.s.: Sorry if my English is bad.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Troy, would the sideboard Ingot Chewers be better as Shattering Sprees?

Have you considered sideboard or maindeck Chalice of the Void?
Your deck doesn't lose much by setting Chalice @ one.
It can also be set @ 0 to insure the opponent doesn't play a mox to get out of the Magus softlock.

The reason I run Ingot Chewers is because they are so cheap to play.  Shattering spree would definately kill more artifacts, but it's usually just one artifact I need to get rid of, not a lot.  If I wanted to kill more than one, I might consider Rack an Ruin.  It doesn't require as much red as Spree to kill two artifacts and it's cost isn't too bad even with a sphere out.

I'm not sure how good Chalice at 1 is anymore.  Brainstorm and Ponder are out now, so I'm thinking Chalice @1 isn't as strong as it used to be.  I would absolutely love to be proven wrong, though. 

Peace,

-Troy

[eightywpm]

In my testing with RG and Rx I have always seen its major weaknesses to be fast combo and Oath.  When Painter's Servant was first printed, I thought it fit perfectly into a TMWA shell and it seems like vroman had a similar idea with a RBW shell.  I just stuck to RB with painter's servant and 7 blasts - painter seems to run over Oath and 8 blasts seemed to do lots of damage to combo (especially after painter hit).

I know it seems like it takes the deck in a different direction but would a RB shell that instead of beats for a win used painter/stone as a win condition be better?  It seems to take bad matchups and make them better.  This is the list I was testing pre-restrictions - obviously much of it has to change but I had great luck against some of the more dominant archetypes for a while:

Lands: 17
4x Swamp
4x Mountain
2x Polluted Delta
3x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire

Creatures:  11
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
4x Dark Confidant

Spells:  32
// win
3x Grindstone

// disruption
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
4x Chains of Mephistopheles (MVP)
1x Extirpate (meta call)

// utility and tutoring
1x Yawgwill (weak in this build - also debatable)
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Iimperial Seal
1x Demonic Consultation

// Acceleration
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Lotus Petal


This deck was crushing everything.  Yawgwill is weakened by the demonic consultation, but EOT finding a grindstone usually says GG.  The sb included artifact hate mostly because chalice @ 1 makes me a sad panda (and a dead one at that) and the deck was too early in development to really know what else it needed besides that.  The chains WRECKED the gushbond engine and the 7 blasts usually meant it was going to stick around.  Of course now that blue has been nuked, my chains are nowhere near as strong as they were just a week ago

Anyway, older TMWA builds used to run 8 blasts as a sb plan back in the olden days, at least some versions I played against did.  I don't see any reason to not incorporate them if it solves a HUGE weakness, although naming blue is dangerous as it improves both FOW and MISD.  I realize that not every deck is going to be running blue in the new meta (or so people think) so the blasts may seem weaker, however the blasts are still going to be strong and painter's servant just makes them ridiculous.  Just my two cents.

[Myriad Games]

Wow, a lot more responses than I'd expected to begin with. Seems that lots of folks are excited about the new potential for TMWA in this post-BS environment. I likely won't have too much time to post in the near term, but as the format develops (once we get to actual tournament results from the post-restriction era), I'm sure my ideas will coalesce. Seems like everyone has a plan for TMWA, so keep the ideas coming and keep posting your results (testing and tournament) as you have them.

Thanks!

[vroman]

unknown how this deck will fair in Brave New World of Vintage, but previously I found white was vital, for plowshares, to prevent them from replaying all their guys from yard if they manage to win counter war over yawgwill.
also, Ive won a lot of games by going all in and d-consulting for balance

[rkmancer]

unknown how this deck will fair in Brave New World of Vintage, but previously I found white was vital, for plowshares, to prevent them from replaying all their guys from yard if they manage to win counter war over yawgwill.
also, Ive won a lot of games by going all in and d-consulting for balance

Do you mean you cast Demonic Consultation to tutor Balance??
Well, all this time I think tutoring a restricted card using Demon Consul is forbidden since it's super risky. .
But if someone have tried it and reach a lot of victory, I'll do it too 
In what condition this act should be done?

[wiley]

In what condition this act should be done?

When it is your only out.  Consulting for a 1 of should carry a high chance of winning you the game, otherwise it is too risky.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

What are folks' thoughts on attacking the mana base in the upcoming format?  TMWA has a lot of threats in that direction: Magus/Blood Mood, Gorilla Shaman, Raze, Wasteland/Stripmine, Rack and Ruin, Meltdown, etc.  I get a sense from some of the lists that are floating around that decks will have a more diverse land and mana package (specifically, Long and Slaver decks).  Will that be a viable way of attacking them?

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

It seems to me that with the rise of Workshop decks and the loss of stability from Brainstorm and Ponder, the mana bases of most decks will stabilize to higher counts and more inclusion of basics. This might impede the usefulness of mana denial strategies.

[wiley]

What about exploiting this fact with ankh and zo-zu?  With these and thorn you could have a pretty good source of damage over time.  You can also use pyrostatic pillar to further encourage them to play more lands for bigger spells.  Backed up by a mox monkey or Mr. meltdown (whatever the name of the creature is that spellshapes meltdowns) it could be a pretty good soft lock. 

The problem, as with many tmwa decks, is that the opponent often sees far more cards than you do, giving them a higher chance to deal with your threats than you have of protecting them.  Does anyone have ideas on how to fix this?  Possibly taking a page from assassin and running welders and possessed portal?  Those would also have synergy with ankh since you could weld one out for the other and take very little damage from either.  Using bazaars?

Also, is the red genju any good now?  I'm not sure how much aggro you would face in the coming meta so it might be a liability but a recurring ball lightning is pretty decent.

[WhiteWolf]

I tested the following list some against Slaver and UBW Fish. Slaver was pretty easy and I had the feeling the combined mana-denial of Shaman, Kataki, Rod and Wastes helped a lot. Actually, without the “smoothing” of Brainstorm manadenial seems very good against control decks especially.

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War’s Wage

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Null Rod

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
3 Plateau
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
1 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
3 Mox

Sideboard (untested)

4 Pithing Needle
4 Shattering Spree
3 Smother / Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

Actually in testing the REBs and Pyro were Needles (seems interesting to shut off Bazaar , Welder, … wich I expect to see a lot). I replaced them with Blasts for the moment to take care of the occasional draw spell that slips through or as extra removal for Fish stuff (wich I expect a lot of too) like Trinket and Meddling Mage (MMage on Lavamancer and counters on Plow lost me a lot of games against Fish).

Another card that surely is back with a verngeance is Null Rod. Shuts off stuff like Triskelion, Slaver, Top, ... on top off Moxen.

I like this deck a lot, it is like an old-school TMWA with Thoughtseizes. It feels like a very basic but sturdy list.

I’m still wondering if the Shamans should be replaced with Vandals and the REBS could be stuff like burn, Smother, Flametongue, even the Needles or Ronom Unicorns I had in first.

[Troy_Costisick]

I’m still wondering if the Shamans should be replaced with Vandals and the REBS could be stuff like burn, Smother, Flametongue, even the Needles or Ronom Unicorns I had in first.

With the amount of aggro that I'm expecting in the upcoming meta, I don't think Vandals will make it through often enough to blow up any meaningful artifacts.  You might try Goblin Tinkerer or Viashino Heretic if you wanted something other than the Mox Monkey.  As for Smothe, Flametongue, Needles, and Unicorns, I think that will reallly depend on your local meta.  I don't think anyone can really guess what might be optimal for your deck in your environment. 

Peace,

-Troy

[The Atog Lord]

Atog:  With all the heavy artifact mana in my deck, I need a way to convert it to something else in the late game.  Atog can take my now useless Moxen, Mana Crypt, and Great Furnaces and turn them into 2 damage each.  A very nice finisher.

Very nice indeed. Great in every format.

[Myriad Games]

My most recent mono-red build of TMWA did not perform as hoped this past weekend. In the new format, I think threat density and Vexing Shusher will be key. Also, watch out for The Abyss! It may be time to bring back some Ponies!!!

[WhiteWolf]

Hey Dan, care to share that list with us? I'm especially curious because you mention it's mono-red. I haven't tested Shusher myself but I'm about to. He certainly shows a lot of promise in theory. I think that a very nice side effect of the critter is his ability to play stuff through Chalice.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Hey Dan, care to share that list with us? I'm especially curious because you mention it's mono-red. I haven't tested Shusher myself but I'm about to. He certainly shows a lot of promise in theory. I think that a very nice side effect of the critter is his ability to play stuff through Chalice.

I'd like to see the list too.  My thoughts on Susher at the moment are that he's lost a lot of his potency in the new environment.  Back when there were so many blue cards to pitch to FoW, countermagic was common.  But now, it's less common.  Girm Long, Ichorid, and (most) Shop decks don't run any countermagic.  Control Slaver does, but we've got red blasts for that.  I think that Shusher is on a low ebb of relevance right now...but I own 4 just in case!  I'm thinking I like Gorilla Shaman more right now.  What about you guys?

Peace,

-Troy

[GreenOne]

I'm not a skilled vintage player at all. My format is legacy, but I heard painter is doing quite well in its blue form with 8 blasts MD.
A new deck is evolving in legacy and I'd like to see if it can be competitive in Vintage too. Many of its card choices are similar to what other TMWA run.
Here's a list of Legacy's Imperial Painter:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10090
[4x] Painter's Servant
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Magus of the Moon
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Pyroblast
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[3x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[2x] Active Volcano
[1x] Vexing Shusher
[4x] Chrome Mox
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] City of Traitors
[10x] Mountain

Here's the list I tweaked in 5 minutes to be played in vintage:

// Lands
    11 [UG] Mountain
    4  Ancient Tomb
    2  City of Traitors

// Creatures
    4  Simian Spirit Guide
    4  Imperial Recruiter
    4  Magus of the Moon
    4  Painter's Servant
    3  Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
    1  Vexing Shusher
    1  Gorilla Shaman
    1  Stingscourger

// Spells
    3  Dead/Gone
    4  Pyroblast
    4  Red Elemental Blast
    4  Grindstone
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Chrome Mox
    1  Trinisphere

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Spellshock
SB: 1  Gaea's Blessing
SB: 4  Shattering Spree
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt

Card choices:
Manabase:
I suck at making manabases. I just took the original list -some lands -3chrome moxes +some broken on-color artifact acceleration.

Beaters:
Magus of the moon: I see many people running it so I guess it's quite good in the format. Being able to power it out on turn 1 on the play is great.
Imperial recruiter: The base of the deck. It can often be played as a turn 1 spell thanks to the 2 mana lands and SSG. It tutors for every creature in the deck, finding silver bullets as well as the core of the combo (Painter).
Painter's servant: Allows you to play with 8 1cc vindicate+counterspells and it's an oops I win in case you draw Grindstone.
Jaya Ballard: a beating body. It gets rid of opposing pesky creatures such as Confidants, Juggernauts, Welders and the like. It's a "Vindicate" machine with Painter out. Unfortunately it's legendary, and its CC is not that easy on the manabase.
Vexing Shusher: don't know if this can be useful in Vintage. It's mostly used to play the combo unharmed by counterbalance in legacy. Probably a weak slot.
Gorilla shaman: A silver bullet against artifact mana when you have a Blood Moon effect out.
Stingscourger: A tutorable way out of Colossus and other pesky big creatures.
SSG: it accelerates and beats. It allows silly things like countering turn 1 on the draw and powering turn 1 Magus, painter or recruiter.

Spells:
Trinisphere: Many of our spells are 3cc so i guess it doesn't harm us as it does with the opponent. Don't know if it warrants the slot though.
Grindstone: D'oh!
8 Blasts: you ogt 4 painters and 4 tutors to it. Vintage is a blue based format also.
3 Dead/Gone: Additional answers to tinker and to pesky lil' critters.

Side:
Spellshock: Much better than Pillar in this deck due to the CC. It's also worth noting that while we don't have spells with CC>3, tendrils does.
Gaea's blessing: Against opposing painters/ brainfreezes (do people still play Freeze after the bannings?)
Tormod's Crypt: Yeah, people wants to use the graveyard.
Pithing Needle: additional hate Against Ichorid.
Shattering Spree: Stax and Mud variants.

Testing:
As I said I'm just a bad vintage player: I don't know the format well and I'm not used in playing with busted cards. I did a couple of matches on MWS just to see if the deck is that bad.

2-1 vs Grim Long.
G1. He comboes turn one on the play. D'oh!
G2. I play a first turn Magus. He plays an underground Sea and a Green Mox. I play a Painter. He plays a fetch. I play a spellshock and it's GG short after.
G3. He fetches for basic. I play Mox, Tomb, Painter. I counter something on his turn. I play a grindstone and win.

2-0 vs Control Slaver.
G1. I play a painter on turn one. He doesn't have a force. I have 3 blasts in hand and gain control of the match easily.
G2. Painter on turn 1 gets forced. Recruiter on turn 2, he drains, i REB. Tutor for painter. Play painter on turn 3. He plays slaver with the help of Lotus. I combo on turn 4.

2-1 Ichorid.
G1. He starts with a bazaar. I play a turn 2 Magus of the moon but it's already too late.
G2. I start with a Needle+crypt. On turn 2 i play a painter.
G3. He starts with unmask and i reveal a hand of Magus, Magus, Needle, tomb, SSG, Lotus, Painter. I can't lose that one.

EDIT: note that the field was random MWS players. So it's worth nothing.

Unfortunately i had no chance to play against stax.
What do you guys think about the deck?

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Well, just an initial reaction, nice find on Imperial Recruiter being a tutor for Painter's Servant!  Was it hard for you to get grindstone in your games?

Peace,

-Troy

[GreenOne]

Heya,

Well, just an initial reaction, nice find on Imperial Recruiter being a tutor for Painter's Servant!  Was it hard for you to get grindstone in your games?

The short answer is: you have to lucksack into it.
The deck however needs painter A LOT more than Grindstone, that's why in this deck Recruiter a better tutor than Trinket. Grindstone is just the oops I win.
The beatdown plan is the usual path to the win, it just happens that sometimes you have a turn 2/3 win.

[rkmancer]

Legacy version for Imperial Painter has been popular all over the world and prove itself as one of the most competitive deck. .
I've been trying to convert this build into Vintage and comparing with your list, there's some differences :
1. Oopz, I forget about Gorilla Shaman (I use Viashino Heretic), I'll try at least 1. .
2. Vexing Susher is good, insane if your meta full with Chalice of the Void, 1 is enough. .
3. Dead/Gone?? WhoHOOO, I always love this card and I agree, 3 is the right number. .
4. Stingscourger doesn't needed, but it depends on your meta. .
5. Try Faerie Macabre, not as good as Tormod for graveyard hate, but this creatures is tutorable by Imperial. .
6. I don't know if spellshock is that good, I'll look it out
7. WHEEL of FORTUNE!! fit mana curve, dig more for Grindstone or other combo pieces, dig more mana producer, dig for protection (SSG + pyroblast as red Force of Will)

EDITED :
In Legacy area, anti-creature spell is everywhere, even Lightning Bolt can kill Paiter easily, but Grindstone usually get free. .
In Vintage area, artifact haters are everywhere so it'll be more difficult to protect both Painter and Grindstone, maybe I'll try for Welder in the future. .