The Mountains Win Again!

[Sean Ryan]

The Mountains Win Again ... Because of Loam
AKA "The Land-Saw"

3 Badlands
3 Tiaga
4 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained
1 Bayou / Gemstone Mine
1 Swamp / Gemstone Mine
1 Mountain / Barbarian Ring

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bazaar of bagdad
1 Forgotten Cave
3 Waste
1 Strip
4 Lotus, Mox-R, G, B

4 Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Gorrilla Shaman
1 Sting Scourger
1 Genesis

3 Life from the Loam
3 Scroll Rack
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Cabal Therepy

4 DT, Vamp, Imp Seal, Entomb
1 Fastbond
1 Flame Jab
1 Raven's Crime

Sideboard:
4 Planar Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Duress
1 Extirpate

I played the deck online and made some tweeks:

Drayd Arbor is easily in the top 5 MVPs of this deck.  In our matches Arbor was relevant in well over 60% of them.  The fact that you can fetch a creature with a fetchland makes this card just stupid-good. 

Forgotten Caves is another very powerful cards and often was used to supercharge a crusher in response to tog-pumping or to bring crusher from sub-lethal to lethal.  With Cave and Loam you can fairly reliably boost the crusher by 3-4 sometimes even higher.   

I tested against Strat-Tog played by Jer.  We ended up 7 games to 6 in my favor all pre-board.  We had large variety of games.  We had long games with Tog v Crusher staring contest.  We had Tinker-DSC blowouts matched with Zero-card-Tog hands by turn 2 burnouts outs in my favor.  We actually tested a slightly different build than what I posted above.  It was a build without Genesis or Fastbond, but 2 maindeck goyfs instead. 

The choice to add genesis was a result of testing, where over-zealous dredging left me with little options left in the remainder of my deck for actual win conditions.  This happened a few times.  Also the ability to recur sting scourger would have won me a few games too.  Fastbond I originally scoffed at on paper... but after play testing, I found myself starved for mana and land drops even when the deck as "going off."  Many times I had to choose between stripping a land or progressing my own board.  Fastbond would have been extremely powerful.  Giving me a single turn of "Development" leading into a much stronger stance on the board, and enable genesis.

Hopefully we'll get a chance to test boarded games.

I like this shell and plan to test it out, but it would probably be stronger with the following changes:

+3 Rod
+3 Bazaar
+4 Goyf
+1 Maze

-3 GShaman
-3 Scroll Rack
-1 Loam
-1 Entomb
-1 Crusher
-1 Extirpate
-1 FCave

The idea is to go with a simpler plan that adds more consistency in threats and disruption while dropping a draw engine that takes awhile to set up.  I am currently trying to figure out an aggro-control list that abuses Bazaar/Confidant/Duress/Rod if you have any ideas.

Have you played Dawn of the Dead at all?  I'm thinking about running that with some modifications.

[Shimster]

Hey guys,

I am currently working on a WBR aggroish build. To my mind, Hide / Seek is the best card against the current format - take this Slaver, bounce that Oath and don't be longer afraid of Tinkerlossus.

"Team Hoppelnde Bobbel - Seek'n'Destroy"

// Mana
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Mountain
6 LoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt

// Creatures
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Duress
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Hide / Seek

// Sideboard
4 Children of Korlis
4 Pithing Needle
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Mountain

MD: 11 burn spells to clear the way or burning their head. Magma Jet shines at toasting Goblin Welder. The 'mancer helps against aggro, as well as Welder. I played Mogg Fanatic in its slot, but the grim mage is way more sustainable. Hide/Seek and Duress (haven't tested Thoughtseize yet) are good at fighting combo, Oath and Tinkerlossus.

SB: Children of Korlis doubles as Tendrilscombo and Ichorid hate. Pithing Needle comes in handy against Belcher, Slaver and random stuff. While R'n'R and Kataki are the mandatory Stax/MUD hate, I really like basics against Wasteland/CoW.

A metagame breakdown of the last event:

6 x Drain Control (Slaver, Bomberman, Landstill)
6 x Fish (Mostly Uw, Ubg, Faeries)
4 x Long / TPS (Grim Long, Remora TPS)
4 x Random Combo (Belcher and Highlander Combo)
3 x Aggro (Sui, Goblins, White Stompy)
3 x GY Combo (Ichorid, Dragon)
2 x Oath
1 x Drain Combo
1 x Highlander
1 x Workshop Aggro
1 x Workshop Prison

[Sean Ryan]

Why no mana denial?  You are going to need less burn and more disruption to be competitive.  The Lavamancer hits harder than Fanatic but that extra turn to be activie can be fatal, he also competes with the 3 Grunts you run.  Pillar should either be cut all together or move to the side.  Glowrider is a much better option that hurts Drain decks as well.  With all of the Drain/Combo decks you see this might be better:

+3 Null Rod
+3 Thoughtseize
+4 Glowrider
+4 Mogg Fanatic
+2 Kataki
+5 Strip/WAsteland

-4 Pillar
-4 Magama Jet
-3 Shrapnel Blast
-4 Lavamancer
-2 GShaman
-2 Mox/Crypt
-2 FEtchlands

[Ulthrion]

I played the list below on my first vintage tournament and got 2 wins, 1 draw and 3 losses, which is quite nice considering the matchups in match 1 and 6 and the fact that it was my first tournament (see here for my report).

TMWA
mana (25)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains

Creatures (21)
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Aven Mindcensor

Spells (14)
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Null Rod

Sideboard (15)
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ronom Unicorn
1 Kami of Ancient Law
2 Hide // Seek
3 Shattering Spree

I won't go into too much detail about the report here, but I'll repeat whatever's relevant.
I played against the following decks:
- Red/Black aggro (lots of Shadowmoor)
- Workshop Aggro
- Angel Oath (with DSC)
- Painter Combo
- Slaver
- White Weenie

The Red/Black and White Weenie decks were the worst matchups were I felt I had no real chance, because my disruption did nothing and they just had better men. Slaver and Painter's Combo were about even, Oath was slightly in his favour and workshop was mightily in my favour.

Manabase: The manabase mostly worked fine. I added a ghost quarters as a spell later, which allowed me to side it out whenever I wanted.
Wasteland: They were either fantastic or terrible, but nothing in between really. They kept orchard off the table as well as workshops and academy.

4 Mogg Fanatic They were okay. Nothng really special, but a nice beatstick that takes welders, shamans and confidants with him.
4 Dark Confidant Was reasonable, but nothing special. Occasionally it gets down early and you can swamp your opponent in cards. Otherwise I was usually too busy casting disruption to make him a priority.
4 Jotun Grunt  Was quite nice. The graveyard hosing was never really relevant, but the improved clock it gives was quite relevant.
2 Vexing Shusher Either fantastic or just a plain dude. Although I think that it belongs more in a 2-color deck, or at least in a 3-color deck including green and red. It is certainly a consideration for any counter-infested meta.
2 Kataki, War's Wage Was quite nice in some matchups. It didn't really shut down any moxen in most games though and in the end a little disappointing.
3 Simian Spirit Guide I casted him a dude quite often. In a more red-oriented deck I can see him going to four, but still, too many creatures that don't really do anything gives you too little threat or disruption density (not saying that it's the case now). I thought three was fine.
2 Aven Mindcensor It was nice with shutting down a random mystical tutor, but other than that it had little impact apart from being a 2-power beater.

4 Duress They are very nice and give a lot of security. If I had thoughtseizes, I would have added 2 or 3 of those as well to increase the disruption density
2 Extirpate There are pretty much always targets for this and is hardly a bad card ever! I'm not sure to play more, but with more Thoughtseizes they might become even more relevant.
4 Swords to Plowshares Easy, simple, clean, perfect! The lifegain isn't always nice, but in most matchups it's hardly relevant.
4 Null Rod The all star of the deck! It shuts down sooo much and forces your opponent to deal with it before doing anything else, which buys you so much time.

3 Lightning Bolt Not at all useful. I sided them in against aggro, but they are hardly sufficient for that.
2 Tormod's Crypt Hardly relevant, but then again, I didn't face heavy graveyard based decks like Ichorid or Will.deck
2 Ronom Unicorn and 1 Kami of Ancient Law Awesome against Oath, prety much irrelevant against other decks. They are too weak against aggro, and I saw no other annoying enchantments all day.
2 Hide // Seek Very nice and versatile. They come in against quite a number of decks, and that makes them great at creating sideboard space.
3 Shattering Spree Disappointing, but mostly because I only drew one once, and with three colors + 5 wastes there isn't enough red mana to really abuse the spree.

All and all, the wins I got were mostly because of mana denial by null rod and wasteland, combined with suppression from fanatic and swords. Although I'm not overjoyed about most of the card choices, I really enjoyed playing the deck as a whole.

One of the lessons I learned here is that a more focussed sideboard is in order. The lightning bolts emphasise this, as they were added to combat aggro, but overall don't really make it a favourable matchup. In that respect I should have just focussed on making the other matchups better and leave pure aggro as a weakness.

[TopSecret]

After reading your report, I think you should play some
Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard.
It doesn't take a lot of slots,
and one can win a game against pure aggro all by itself.

Have you considered playing the Hide//Seeks maindeck?
It sounds like they'd work out well.

[Ulthrion]

After reading your report, I think you should play some
Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard.
It doesn't take a lot of slots,
and one can win a game against pure aggro all by itself.

Jitte would have been very good I think and much more focussed than lightning bolts. Unfortunately, I didn't include it for a few reasons:
1- I have no experience with sideboards.
2- I didn't want null rod and jitte in the same deck (although I would always side out the rods, so this argument is quite wrong).
3- I don't have any, and I did't know anyone to borrow them from. They didn't fit in my budget for this tournament, which was the most important reason.

Have you considered playing the Hide//Seeks maindeck?
It sounds like they'd work out well.

Hide and Seek is astrange card. It's versatile, has use in nearly every game, but it's cost is quite hefty (you can't always have mana open to play both halves), and it's a rather late-game card in that you're usually using your main phase mana for active disruption. It's certainly a card that can have a place maindeck.

[Miaou]

Just thought I'd share my build and SB so you guys can maybe give me some pointers

Creatures (16):

4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Dark Confidant
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Aven Mindsensor

Disruption (21):

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Pithing Needle
3x Null Rod
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Extirpate
2x Hide/Seek

Mana (23):

1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Black Lotus
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Windswept Heath
2x Scrubland
2x Badlands
2x Plateau
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Swamp

SB:
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Shattering Spree
1x Hide/Seek
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Extirpate

Basically I chose to go with the standard mana denial theme (strips + mox monkey + null rod) but also having other cards serve that function such as Pithing Needle and Aven Mindsensor for fetchlands and Extirpate that can hit duals or fetches that are in the graveyard.

I have also considered playing 4x Magus of the Moon as additional mana denial, however I am not sure whether or not it is overkill. The magi would probably come in instead of 2x Extirpate and 2x Aven Mindsensor. Any opinions?

I think the creature base is pretty simple, I only have 3 Gorilla Shaman as drawing multiples of him is rarely great, and 3 Grunts as I very rarely want to see him right at the start of a game. Fanatics hit Welders, Bobs, mindsensors and more (which are quite common where I play). Confidants fill my hand after I have lay ed down the disruption pretty straight forward

What I am more interested in hearing comments about are the main deck Extirpates. I personally find them great as they are never really dead. However I am not sure if playing 1 more Thoughtseize and say 1 more Null Rod wouldn't just be better. Some might also consider cutting the Hide/Seek, but I really enjoy this card main deck as it is never dead and very versatile. Be it shuffling a card off the top of the library or removing some win conditions, or simply getting rid of a big artifact dude.

For the mana base, I was hesitating a lot with the addition of the basic plains (hence the heaths), but against Workshops where there will be wastes, I need to have access to white mana for STP/Kataki/Hide. Having the plains also makes Magus of the Moon that much more appealing ><

The SB I feel is pretty solid, as Thorns hurts combo and is really strong with the already existing mana denial. The Shusher is really good in my local metagame with lots of control and he helps vs workshops to counter chalices. Only problem is that the double red is sometimes rough to get out especially if I am getting hit by wastelands. The extra Hide/Seek in the board is mainly vs Oath which makes its appearance from time to time. I would like to add a couple of Jittes as was mentioned above, but I am unsure on what to cut for it.

So that's basically it, I'd love some feedback/comments on the deck.

[Myriad Games]

Here's my latest Crusher list that I played in a weekend of events on the 23rd and 24th of August:

4   x   Countryside Crusher
4   x   Dark Confidant
4   x   Tarmogoyf
4   x   Null Rod
4   x   Extirpate
4   x   Duress
3   x   Life from the Loam
1   x   Stingscourger
1   x   Flame Jab
1   x   Ancient Grudge
1   x   Raven's Crime
1   x   Imperial Seal
1   x   Demonic Tutor
1   x   Entomb
1   x   Vampiric Tutor
1   x   Bazaar of Baghdad
1   x   Strip Mine
3   x   Wasteland
4   x   Wooded Foothills
2   x   Bloodstained Mire
3   x   Badlands
3   x   Taiga
1   x   Bayou
1   x   Dryad Arbor
1   x   Mountain
1   x   Swamp
1   x   Black Lotus
1   x   Mox Emerald
1   x   Mox Ruby
1   x   Mox Jet
60      
      
4   x   Wheel of Sun and Moon
2   x   Umezawa's Jitte
3   x   Artifact Mutation
2   x   Ancient Grudge
3   x   Yixlid Jailer
1   x   Volcanic Spray
15      

I'd like to get some outside feedback before discussing my ideas after about 12 rounds of testing in those events.

[Blitzbold]

Your list looks a little bit like 'Dawn of the Dead' short of  -missing out  StP as well as Hide / Seek- and without the Bazaar / Squee -engine. I understand that you want the Crusher as a beatdown-monster on his own in there, though. Do you really think that 4 MD Extirpate is that great? I'd also like to see a basic Forest somewhere in the deck - maybe instead of the Mountain? Maybe it's just me, but I like my SB-cards to be reliably castable.

[TopSecret]

Were Tinker or Empty the Warrens a problem during any first games?

You have a lot of disruption and Null Rod,
but you only have Stingscourger, tutors to get him, and a solid clock
to answer an early resolved Tinker game 1.

I could see Null Rod being enough of a hamper for Warrens pre-board,
but you're still open to a very early game one Warrens unless it's too small to beat through Crusher and 'Goyf.

What do you think of reworking the deck for 4 Mox Diamond?
It enables more turn one Confidants and other fast plays
as well as filter mana very well.
Although, I'm thinking it wouldn't work well with Crusher,
since having adequate land before dropping him may be important
and Mox Diamond does take away your access to lands without Loam.
I don't know how you'd fit it in, either, but it's a thought.

[zabuza]

Hello there!!
Nobody have answered about the deck i posted time ago? (page 2). Is it so bad that nobody likes them. I´ve been testing it and is good enough to be care of. There are any problems to solve (like graveyard hating) but it´s monocolored and with rods i can´t play tormod´s but i´m still thinking to solve the problem. Any other idea? Please tell me what do you think about it. thanks

[Myriad Games]

This build definitely made me want more answers to DSC, which means that Hide / Seek might actually be playable again.

There's a divergence between the Aggro Loam options that abound and the more classical three-color TMWA builds.

Zabuza, I'm not convinced that Figure of Destiny is worth running. He seems too ponderous and doesn't provide any ancillary benefit. I'd almost rather have Bloodfire Dwarf than Martyr of the Ashes, since I tend to play for hellbent as much as possible Overall, I really feel like the mono red versions are giving up a ton of diversity for raw power. Hey, it worked our for Lou Stefanovic when he made Top 4 with mono red TMWA this past weekend at Myriad Games (report coming soon), so who am I to argue.

[credmond]

Maze of Ith is a solid answer to darksteel collosus in decks featuring life from the loam and crop rotation or  entomb. The kind of decks that run DSC typically do not run the strip mine to be able to deal with a maze of ith in play.

Of course your deck will also need a way to eventually deal with him since he can put a stopper in an aggro players plans as just a huge indestructible wall. For this, I agree that hide/seek is a good option, since that card offers amazing potential both offensively and defensively.

[Troy_Costisick]

I like Dead/Gone a lot.  It can kill Welder and Bob outright or it can bounce Angel and DSC.  I'd much rather have a DSC in my opponent's hand rather than his library just in case he can get his Tinker back.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations to Lou Stefanovic for making Top 4 at Myriad Games with The Mountains Win Again!

Does this mean mono red should be more heavily considered as viable in the current meta?

[Troy_Costisick]

Congratulations to Lou Stefanovic for making Top 4 at Myriad Games with The Mountains Win Again!

Does this mean mono red should be more heavily considered as viable in the current meta?

The player must have been an incredible pilot because it seems like there's a lot of sub-optimal cards in that list.  For instance, I'd like to know how the Crusher performed in a deck with only 18 land.  If he wanted a creature that grows, wouldn't Taurian Mauler be a better choice and much easier to cast?  Or for that matter, why not play some artifact lands and use an Atog?

I'm dubious about Wheel of Fortune.  In a format with so many storm decks, is it wise to give your opponent a draw 7?  I do like the main-deck Magus of the Moon, but why not play a full set of Moxen so you can power him out on the first turn?

All in all, the deck seems like a good start but also a deck that could use some more optimization.

Peace,

-Troy

[overseer1234]

Hey guy's,

I was just wondering now that chrome mox has been unrestricted, some build with a shell like legacy's Dragon Stompy would be viable?

This is where I would start (non powered):

4x    Chalice of the Void    
4x    Chrome Mox    
2x    Thorn of Amethyst    
1x    Trinisphere    
2x    Umezawa’s Jitte
2x    Arc-Slogger    
4x     Gathan Raiders
4x    Ingot Chewer
4x    Magus of the Moon    
4x    Rakdos Pit Dragon    
4x    Simian Spirit Guide    
3x    Blood Moon    
3x    Seething Song    
4x    Ancient Tomb    
4x    City of Traitors    
11x    Mountain

Sideboard:
2x     Pithing Needle 
1x    Thorn of Amethyst
4x    Faerie Macabre
3x    Fortune Thief    
4x    Pyrokinesis          
1x    Gaea’s Blessing

I'm not really a vintage player, so this list might as well be a pile of cr*p.

But if something like this would be viable, then I might just give it a try..

So I'd be happy with some pointers .

Greetzzzzz.

[EnialisLiadon]

I would say that it needs Null Rod.  It just such a huge kick to the junk for the moment and turning off your moxen is a small price to pay for it.

[Masta]

Congratulations to Lou Stefanovic for making Top 4 at Myriad Games with The Mountains Win Again!

Does this mean mono red should be more heavily considered as viable in the current meta?

The player must have been an incredible pilot because it seems like there's a lot of sub-optimal cards in that list.  For instance, I'd like to know how the Crusher performed in a deck with only 18 land.  If he wanted a creature that grows, wouldn't Taurian Mauler be a better choice and much easier to cast?  Or for that matter, why not play some artifact lands and use an Atog?

I'm dubious about Wheel of Fortune.  In a format with so many storm decks, is it wise to give your opponent a draw 7?  I do like the main-deck Magus of the Moon, but why not play a full set of Moxen so you can power him out on the first turn?

All in all, the deck seems like a good start but also a deck that could use some more optimization.

Peace,

-Troy

Wow, that list is awesome!  Talk about hate!  And big ups for Lightning Bolt!  Lightning Bolt is so money, I love it! 

I agree that the list looks kind of 'huh?' at first, but look at how many hate/utility cards are in there then think about all the cards that make the top tier decks work.  Also, a lot of his main consists of traditional hate cards that are typically brought in Game 2.  It just so happens that most of those cards all hate on the top tier decks right now, so it makes perfect sense that this deck performed well. 

I'm not the pilot, so I can't comment for him.  However, Crusher isn't just a guy that grows.  He slims your deck of dead land draws as well.  Considering this guy runs massive hate, I imagine Crusher performed pretty well in guaranteeing a mid-game draw that does something 90%+ of the time.  Playing artifact lands and an Atog in this list is a no-go, we shouldn't even have to discuss this.

Wheel of Fortune has definitely not been successful in Vintage for quite some time.  I'd imagine the player was very strategic with this and avoided casting it blindly into a Storm deck.  Against other decks I'm sure it sets up an easy street burn to victory.  Having said that, I can still see the advantage this gives TMWA by drawing into 4-5 hate cards regardless of what you give the Storm player.

I'd really like to hear what Lou has to say about this deck, does he have a TMD account?

V/R
Masta

[Troy_Costisick]

Wheel of Fortune has definitely not been successful in Vintage for quite some time.  I'd imagine the player was very strategic with this and avoided casting it blindly into a Storm deck.  Against other decks I'm sure it sets up an easy street burn to victory.  Having said that, I can still see the advantage this gives TMWA by drawing into 4-5 hate cards regardless of what you give the Storm player.

Yeah, but it's a sorcery.  You have to play it on your turn.  If Crusher is thinning your land draws (which he really doesn't because there's not much land in this deck at all), and you're not running a full set of power, how are you going to cast that burn you just drew?  This is why I say the pilot had to be terrific.  This deck forces you to make a lot of tough and uncertain decisions as it is currently constructed.  I mean, since he's not running full power, why not run a set of Null Rods rather than playing cards like Browbeat and Burn Out? 

[Masta]

Wheel of Fortune has definitely not been successful in Vintage for quite some time.  I'd imagine the player was very strategic with this and avoided casting it blindly into a Storm deck.  Against other decks I'm sure it sets up an easy street burn to victory.  Having said that, I can still see the advantage this gives TMWA by drawing into 4-5 hate cards regardless of what you give the Storm player.

Yeah, but it's a sorcery.  You have to play it on your turn.  If Crusher is thinning your land draws (which he really doesn't because there's not much land in this deck at all), and you're not running a full set of power, how are you going to cast that burn you just drew?  This is why I say the pilot had to be terrific.  This deck forces you to make a lot of tough and uncertain decisions as it is currently constructed.  I mean, since he's not running full power, why not run a set of Null Rods rather than playing cards like Browbeat and Burn Out? 

@ Troy:

Alright, I really hate to defend this list as I'm only a fan and not the innovator.  Thus why I wish Lou was around to comment.

Once Wheel is cast I'm sure the player will draw into one land and possibly artifact mana, and there's a decent chance they'll draw into a SSG and/or that game-ending Fireblast as well.  There's two mana right there that'll allow the player to squeeze out a Bolt or two, Shaman, Pillar, Price of Progress, or Spree and be able to absorb the cost of Fireblast.  Mind you, this is all assuming the player resolves a Wheel when they only have three mana up, which I'm sure isn't typical nor ideal.  I'd think the player would hold this card until all other cards in hand were played or as a desperate attempt to crawl back in the game. 

A quick point on Crusher not thinning your land draws.  Have you ever played with Crusher?  Your comments lead me to believe you haven't.  And this deck is far from light on lands.  Lou ran 19 lands (32% of his deck), which is literally a ton in Type 1.  Most top tier Vintage decks run closer to 15 lands (25% of your deck). 

Anyway, I think Lou must have done a lot of Jedi Mind Tricking with this deck, saving his best threat for last.  I don't think there were a bunch of tough plays because after all, it's just Mono Red.  This isn't some crazy TPS build or anything.  I really appreciate the old-schoolness of this list and I wish these types of decks were more prevalent in Vintage.  People might be surprised at how often Red damage just wins.  The amount of broken damage Red has at it's disposal in Vintage is fantastic.

Finally, full power is really bad in this deck.  There's nothing he can power out first turn with full power other than Magus and Wheel.  It seems like you keep wanting this deck to be broken like Storm or something.  It's not.  It's a very plain, solid, redundant, consistent Mono Red deck that happens to have bite against most Vintage decks.  Would you run full power in Mono White Weenie?  How about Fish?  Same thing applies here.

The player probably didn't play Null Rod to keep his speed up.  Maybe he felt that his match-ups against decks most susceptible to Null hate weren't that bad.  This deck can kill Painters, race TPS, and keep Welder off the table with super consistency.  Besides, he ran plenty of artifact hate including Shamans which are basically Null Rods for one Red that also turn sideways.

Concerning Browbeat and Burn Out, after you take five damage from Browbeat you usually have two or three turns max to win the game before taking lethal damage.  Many people play maindeck Blast effect spells, I don't see a problem with Burn Out at all.

Alright, I'm done trying to quickly dissect this guy's deck list.  Maybe somebody else should chime in here.  As for you Troy, maybe call this list up and play with it for awhile before criticizing its structure.

V/R
Masta

[The Wolf]

This list has some major strengths, but also some very questionalbe cards.  The biggest hole to me is the blood oath.  I can't see this card being good.  Browbeat seems weak to.  As for wheel, you can always do broken stuff with 7 new cards and will never fault someone for playing it.

The play set of magus of the moon, shamans, reb variants, and the pillars are all great though.  If he rips the turn 1 pillar, turn 2 magus draw agaisnt long, the long player is in a lot of trouble.  These are the card that enabled the top 4 spot

I doubt there was much jedi mind tricking happening though, as magus and pillar don't do much to disrupt the game when they are sitting in your hand. 

Also of note, he played the fish player in the top 8, which I would assume is pretty much a bye for this deck.

[Kotch]

Hey guy's,

I was just wondering now that chrome mox has been unrestricted, some build with a shell like legacy's Dragon Stompy would be viable?

This is where I would start (non powered):

4x    Chalice of the Void    
4x    Chrome Mox    
2x    Thorn of Amethyst    
1x    Trinisphere    
2x    Umezawa’s Jitte
2x    Arc-Slogger    
4x     Gathan Raiders
4x    Ingot Chewer
4x    Magus of the Moon    
4x    Rakdos Pit Dragon    
4x    Simian Spirit Guide    
3x    Blood Moon    
3x    Seething Song    
4x    Ancient Tomb    
4x    City of Traitors    
11x    Mountain

Sideboard:
2x     Pithing Needle 
1x    Thorn of Amethyst
4x    Faerie Macabre
3x    Fortune Thief    
4x    Pyrokinesis          
1x    Gaea’s Blessing

I'm not really a vintage player, so this list might as well be a pile of cr*p.

But if something like this would be viable, then I might just give it a try..

So I'd be happy with some pointers .

Greetzzzzz.

I was testing a similar list :

12 mountain
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 strip mine
4 chrome mox
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
4 simian spirit guide
4 gathan raiders
3 rakdos pit dragon
4 magus of the moon
4 mogg fanatic
4 gorilla shaman
2 jaya ballard, task mage
4 thorn of amethyst
4 sphere of resistance

Sideboard :
rack and ruin
pithing needle
chalice of the void
blood moon
tormod's crypt
dead/gone
great gargadon
pyroblast
...

The 8 Spheres, 4 Shamans, 4 Magus of the Moon and Strip Mine ensure a hard mana-denial disruption. I first played with -1 Shaman, +1 Trinisphere, but you really want an early Shaman in the current meta, and Trinsphere affects you much more than Thorn/Sphere. Plus, keeping a high number of red cards is important for Chrome Mox.
The mana base is very explosive, allowing consistent turn-1 Magus. Jaya Ballard is synergic with Hellbent, but I don't know if 2 Blood Moons would be better, to maximize turn-1 Magus or Blood Moon. Or 2 Genju of the Spires maybe.

Hellbent is really easy to reach and keep, allowing your 7 big guys to make huge damage.

The main problem of this deck is Tinker/DSC. Dead/Gone is quite good, but not synergic at all with Hellbent. I wish a red Benalish Trapper could exist... 

And as long as DSC will remain so problematic for a such list, I don't see how it could be competitive. Maybe Goblin Welders should be maindeck, without any real synergy with the rest of the deck...

[the boogie man]

what about dead/gone? Or stingscourger?

[waywreth]

Also of note, he played the fish player in the top 8, which I would assume is pretty much a bye for this deck.

As the unhappy Fish player, I can assure you this was true.  I pretty much had one of the best possible openings I could have, and still needed another turn to win.  I had turn 1 goyf, turn 3 goyf, and had a chance to win with timewalk, but he had the main deck REB to win that.  In the 2nd game, I was crushed by 2 Magus of the Moons along with a Mox monkey to clear my side of the board of any useful mana.

Also - I saw he beat a painter deck, lost to a combo deck, and beat oath on the back of Greater Gargadon.  I saw him cast wheel at least once, and he won the turn he cast it - with his opponent under 10, he had two fireblasts, among other burn spells.

[overseer1234]

The main problem of this deck is Tinker/DSC. Dead/Gone is quite good, but not synergic at all with Hellbent. I wish a red Benalish Trapper could exist... 

And as long as DSC will remain so problematic for a such list, I don't see how it could be competitive. Maybe Goblin Welders should be maindeck, without any real synergy with the rest of the deck...

That's why the fortune thief is in the sideboard. Usualy they think it's a morphed gathan raiders, but they cant really do much about it with chalice/moon/sphere/thorn out, and DSC doesn't realy mater that much then...

As suggested stingscourger would also be a good answer.

[Masta]

I doubt there was much jedi mind tricking happening though, as magus and pillar don't do much to disrupt the game when they are sitting in your hand. 

I just meant that he had to be cautious of which cards he was willing to bait and have countered in order to resolve his game-swinging bombs.  After all, this is a hate deck and you most definitely want to resolve your most hateriffic cards at any cost.

V/R
Masta

[hauntedechos]

At Masta: just a small note here.  TMWA, like Fish, is a tempo based meta deck.


Haunted.

[Masta]

@ Haunted:  And what's your point?  Are you trying to catch me up in that I'm classifying this list wrong as a hate deck? 

V/R
Masta

[mort-]

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