GWSx: Dark Confidant fueled Ritual combo

[M.Solymossy]

For those of you who don’t know me, I am Mike Solymossy, member of team GWS.   One of the decks I was known around Wisconsin and Illinois for playing was my version of a Dark Confidant Tendrils deck, that I called GWSx.   Before the unrestriction of gush, this deck had a LOT of game, even winning me a Beta Mox Jet in northern Wisconsin May 2007.  (http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=585).  I also took 2nd at an event, losing to Ben Carp playing oath, and also top 8ed other events that were infested with ICBM and GWS members.   Suffice to say, the deck was good.  Unfortunately though, it couldn’t keep up with gush decks, because the main goal is to use controls force of wills to up storm count.  Quite honestly, you just duress one of their counters away, shrug off their other, and thank them for increasing storm count.   Gush decks however could have 2 or three counters up easily, due to merchant scroll, Gush+topdeck tutor, or gush + brainstorm/Recall.  It wasn’t able to compete.   So what am I doing now?   Well, not only is gush and merchant scroll gone, but blue’s only way to successfully find counterspells early just got Nuked.

Here is the new list I am suggesting to play:

    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Island
    3 Swamp
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Necropotence
    4 Duress
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    4 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Cabal Ritual
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 rebuild 
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Time Walk
    1 Timetwister
    1 Windfall
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Repeal
    1 chain of vapor
2 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Tendrils I believe is the combo of the future.  You no longer have card QUALITY, so quantity matters.  You want to be able to use ALL cards to win the game, and cards like Memory Jar, yawgmoths Bargain, and Minds desire just are not very good at doing that anymore.  You draw them at the wrong moment, and they’re absolutely useless.  You no longer have any way to put those back into your library.

4 bounce spells:  I play 1 repeal, 1 chain of vapor, 1 hurkyls, and 1 rebuild.   The reason for this is that they’re all at different casting costs, and all serve different purposes.  They’re all very useful at bouncing things that are annoying on board. 

8 Rituals:  These are the essence of turn 1 duress + Confidant plays, as well as my favorite play: double Tendrils.  When I won New Berlin, in every matchup, I won at least 1 game without using Yawgmoths Will.  This deck is unlike any viable combo deck in its ability to win small.   The saying with this deck is you win big by winning small.  There are definitely turns where you cast some spells and just cast the tendrils.   You can ramp up to 8 mana quite easily (mox, ritual, ritual, tap out, cast 2 tendrils).   

Another cute thing is that each swing with Dark Confidant will make your tendrils 1 spell smaller to be lethal.  I’ve won games with a tendrils at storm = 3, because I was sending my Confidants into the Red.  I don’t believe this will happen as much anymore, because other decks will play creatures, but Confidants are still huge.

Why no minds desire?  This is a card I want to fit into the deck, but the deck is primarily black.  All your threats want to be black, with the exception of a couple cards, because you want to abuse the rituals your deck uses to fuel spells.   

Sensei’s divining top:  it’s the only way to really fuel your hand.  Against control, they can get you the quality you require to beat them.
More to come soon! 
-Mike Solymossy
13NoVa on TMD 

[Ufactor]

Reminds me alot of Forino Suicide..  Unfortunately, SCG has cycled out all of the older decklists.

[bluemage55]

And decks like these are exactly why I expect the meta will get faster, not slower.

[Baraka]

That deck is great.I think 4 tendrills is so much and I use now 3 tendrills and 1 lotus petal.

[Aardshark]

Looks strong. But how often would bargain be better than the 4th tendrils?

Also, 3-4 tendrils could spell trouble v. duress + extirpate. (Would brushing red for ETW make sense?)

[bluemage55]

Also, 3-4 tendrils could spell trouble v. duress + extirpate. (Would brushing red for ETW make sense?)

Not if you expect more Wastelands in the new meta as some of us have been suspecting.

This question is probably best answered by the NLD players here on TMD, but is there a possibility that Doomsday x1 can be incorporated into this decklist?


Please do not double post. Use the edit button.
-- Rich

[personalbackfire]

This question is probably best answered by the NLD players here on TMD, but is there a possibility that Doomsday x1 can be incorporated into this decklist?

No I dont think so... Doomsday is best used in a deck that is focused around it. That is why some people stopped running it in TTS.  Not to mention that most of the cards that make doomsday work(gush, and brainstorm) are now restricted.

[wiley]

Reminds me alot of Forino Suicide..  Unfortunately, SCG has cycled out all of the older decklists.

Your talking about this deck I presume? http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34013.0

This seems like a solid list for the upcoming meta 13NoVa and I do remember hearing about it slightly before gush got unrestricted.  Do you have any old threads archived somewhere that has old arguments on specific card choices?  Or even strategies against the older decks like control slaver and meandeck tendrils?

[Ufactor]

yep, that would be the list.  The major difference, obviously, more blue and the abscence of Night's Whisper.

[bronxie]

anybody think french combo is gonna be viable?  it doesnt lose anything and its solid to begin with...

[M.Solymossy]

This is a great start for the topic!  Unfortunately, I've never been much of a writer, so I'm probably omitting a lot of useful information.   I do however, really love responding to questions, so PM away!

@ Baraka
  When I am testing a deck on Magic Workstation, I never delete old lists, so it's common that I have 4 or 5 different versions of one deck (Most often more!).  I posted one of my newest lists, in which I accidently deleted lotus petal. Silly me, how could I forget it!

@ @ Aardshark
  Honestly, when I played the old lists, I always cut Bargain for other cards.  It's 6 mana investment is just way too much.  I'd rather just be constantly advancing.  I have played Skeletal Scrying in it's place a couple times, and have played demonic consultation before too.  That might be worth another look.  4 tendrils is the right number, because you ALWAYS want to have the option to cast 2 to win the game out of no where, and let me tell you, your opponent is never expecting it.   If you do get extirpated, you can always just go the distance with Bob Mahar.  He's good at doing 2 points.     If you're really worried about losing to extirpate, playing your own might be a fair way to even things out.  That's another option, cutting thoughtseize for extirpate.

@BlueMage55
Your question has been answered in the best way I could.  Doomsday won't allow you to do anything exciting.


@ Wiley
Unfortunately, when I was playing the deck in the gifts meta, I was banned from The Mana Drain, so I don't have any threads about the deck.  But I will search the GWS Team boards for anything I wrote about it before.

The deck is constantly changing, so arguing about card choices is really difficult.  I've played green maindeck, red maindeck, and I've played with nights whisper, without it, with 4 different bounce spells, with a 2/2 mix of bounce spells, with imperial seal, with demonic consultation, with 4 duress, 3 duress, etc. etc.   

As for what to do against control slaver, your play is going to be to resolve a confidant as early as possible and duress their key spell.  Slaver has always had a hard time finding force of wills early, due to only playing 4 brainstorms.  This will be even lesser now, since the new lists will play cardboard like Sensei's top, which takes even longer to get online.  Your card quality AND quantity is better than theirs to begin with.  If they get drain online it gets somewhat frustrating.  You just need to realize this deck is a turn 3 or 4 deck, and very rarely will pull off earlier kills.  Let the bob's, nights whispers, and tutors take control of the game.


 

[JACO]

Mike, I think you forgot to mention the roots of this deck. Nick Trudeau piloted an almost identical version of this deck to the Top 8 at Vintage Worlds 2006:

4 Duress
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
2 Rebuild
1 Repeal (was echoing truth in the $500 event tho)
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Tropical Island
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Extract
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
2 Darkblast
3 Massacre

I originally designed that deck for Nick for a much different metagame, and it obviously included 4 Brainstorms which were legal at the time, but many of the principles still merit consideration today.
- Tons of bounce to smoke Workshops, or to generate enough Storm count on your own just by bouncing your own stuff in the early or mid game
- Plenty of Tendrils to provide the ability for the mini-Tendrils plan
- Plenty of mana and acceleration
- Card advantage and damage in the form of Dark Confidant, which will be incredible moving forward

Put all of those together, and you have a robust deck. If I was playing this going forward though, I would definitely include 4 Sensei's Divining Tops. Card selection is imperative, and it is amazing with Dark Confidant and fetchlands.

This is a very strong deck going forward in the new era of Vintage. Good recommendation Mike!

[zeus-online]

I still don't get why you're not playing with bargain, you said yourself that 8 mana is easy to get, if that's true then bargain shouldn't be that hard to play. I can understand the omission of the other bombs though.

Windfall is puzzling me a bit, it dosn't seem stronger then Demonic consultation, bargain, grim tutor, imperial seal or even night's whisper/skeletal scrying. Is it really better then the other options?

/Zeus

[M.Solymossy]

@ Jaco
NICK TRUDEAU!  I had forgotten his name, and was in a hurry as of my first post (I have not had a single off day since May 24th, and won't until next Thursday, when I leave for Connecticut with you and Jimmy McCarthy).  I did mention that the deck did top8 Gencon 06, or at least I thought I did. No disrespect ment!   I have been testing tops, and I have liked them.  It's possible to play 3, but not 4.   I can still draw into them quite frequently.

@ Zues-Online
Why cast Bargain for 6 mana with a deck that does damage to itself when you can just win the game with tendrils.  I've never ever felt that bargain was good enough unless it was dropped on the first couple turns, because you're not getting enough out of it.  Also, with Mono Blue obviously making a comeback, there's no reason to waste 2 or 3 rituals to get your big stuff drained.  Like I said, the deck wins big by winning small   IF I were to play something at 6 mana,though, with 4 tendrils, I'd play desire.  I still think it's wrong not to play desire, but since the deck is largely black, I don't see it possible to cast that card.

[M.Solymossy]

More testing has shown me Sensei's top is actually REALLY good at creating card quality.  It's going to be a 2 of.  I also want to add Mind's Desire, and 1 more duress.  I'm not exactly sure at the moment.  I'll keep working on it and update ASAP.

[ErkBek]

I still don't get why you're not playing with bargain, you said yourself that 8 mana is easy to get, if that's true then bargain shouldn't be that hard to play. I can understand the omission of the other bombs though.

Bargain can obviously lead to derf derf, I win games, but Bargain tends to be quite poor in this deck for a few reasons.

1) Bargain usually requires a 3 card investment (usually your 3 best). Decks like this can't recover very well from a countered Bargain because it's card advantage takes too long to recoup. Decks like Grim Long can recoup better because of its bombs are bigger and allow you to recoup faster.

2) The example 13Nova stated in the mini-primer of hitting 8 mana into 2 mini-tendrils isn't happening in the early game which is where Bargain shines most, he's referring to the mid and late game after the deck has been operating for a couple of turns and progressing its game plan and setting up this play. Desire is much more useful as a bomb in the mid and late game.

3) Bargain + Bobs major anti-synergy.

[bluemage55]

Playing against 13Nova on MWS left me with the following impressions:

1. The deck's not too consistent.  Without Brianstorm, the deck has problems correcting the need for mana or threats unless Bob is on the table.
2. That said, this deck has a rather frightening "Oops, I win" potential.  When he gets a good starting hand (like ritual -> Duress + Bob), you're in for some trouble, as bombs are going to start flying at your face.
3. Fire/Ice is hilarious tech against 2 Dark Confidants.
4. This deck will have issues dealing with mana denial.  Null Rod/Tangle Wire + Sphere of Resistance is probably going to be game ending, as the deck will never get enough land to hardcast Hurkyl's or Rebuild in time before the noose constricts further.

[M.Solymossy]

Although I don't disagree with Bluemage, I do think that the deck is much more resilient than he gives it credit for.   Losing brainstorm is huge, and I'm trying to find the best possible way to replace it, but so far, the deck's been winning a lot more than it's been losing.

[bluemage55]

Although I don't disagree with Bluemage, I do think that the deck is much more resilient than he gives it credit for.   Losing brainstorm is huge, and I'm trying to find the best possible way to replace it, but so far, the deck's been winning a lot more than it's been losing.

Mostly I'm just concerned about how you fare on the draw against workshop. 

I'm not suggesting that you're completely dead in that situation most of the time, but it does seem like you're due for some problems due to your low land count and the lack of turn 0 protection via FoW.

Whether Shop lays down a Sphere, Null Rod, or Chalice at 1/0, much of your speed is greatly reduced, and I just don't see you being able to get to the singleton Hurkyl's or Rebuild in time.

[policehq]

The Workshop match-up is dreadful! Against Workshop-Aggro, you have a chance, but Stax has typically been mauling me since I don't have counters. I'm thinking three bounce effects like Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild are needed, on top of 1-2 spot bounce.

If you're concerned about casting Mind's Desire, you should add it along with Tolarian Academy.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ police hq
I've always found combo variants running bob to have a better matchup against shop than those that do not. bob plays through thorn and helps you find your artifact bounce and land drops. not to mention get in a few beats, reducing the storm count needed.

[Gekoratel]

If your looking for a combo variant with a strong matchup against Shops IT is probably the direction that you want to take.  Also has anyone tested this deck against Ichorid I was wondering if its fast enough to battle that deck.  Seems like most people are agreeing in the new meta you'll need to worry about Stax, Shop-Aggro, Ichorid, and Drain control.  Obviously once a few events have occurred and the metas been explored we'll have a better idea.

[ROLAND]

Soly,

I've been playing around with your list, but I have a few questions for ya.

After reading your opening post is seems to me you have two preferred opening hands: 

Hand one:   Some mixture of Rituals, duress, confidant, mana sources, etc.

Hand two: Some mixture of Rituals, tendrils, mana sources, etc.

For Hand one:  How often do you mulligan before you get the hand you want? It seems to me that this hand is the key to keeping the deck rolling? 

Of the 10 games I gold fished,  the majority of them left me wishing I had a duress/thoughtseize.

Have you thought of upping the duress affects to 6,7, or 8?


Also, Can you post an Intuition Tendrils list so I can get an idea of the differences? 

Thanks,

Dodger

[Sean Ryan]

I'm currently testing u/b Grim Long with confidants and it looks promising.  It seems like a nice balance between speed and consistency, although the mini Tendrils plan goes out the window.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

for roland:

intuition tendrils:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16684

[ErkBek]

If your looking for a combo variant with a strong matchup against Shops IT is probably the direction that you want to take.  Also has anyone tested this deck against Ichorid I was wondering if its fast enough to battle that deck.  Seems like most people are agreeing in the new meta you'll need to worry about Stax, Shop-Aggro, Ichorid, and Drain control.  Obviously once a few events have occurred and the metas been explored we'll have a better idea.

IT does an excellent job beating Chalice, Crucible-Waste, Stack, and Null Rod. Sphere of Resistance is still a problematic card for IT, but when it was a 4-of, you still had a very favorable matchup.

Brainstorm's filtering in IT is irreplaceable. I just don't see the deck working without Brainstorm to enable running 30 mana sources in a deck that rarely kills turn 1.

[policehq]

For reference, I didn't think it'd be worth it to start a new thread with such a similar list.

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained mire
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

1 Timetwister
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper

4 Dark Confidant

4 Tendrils of Agony

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

This deck does indeed do a lot of damage to itself, but it's very consistent, and two Tendrils in a single turn is a fairly common play. I didn't feel like off-color Moxen were very good with all the Rituals unless I played Tolarian Academy and Sensei's Divining Top, but I was very under-impressed with the Top. It's really slow and mana intensive.

To make the change to add Force of Will, I would probably drop the 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain, 2 Night's Whisper, and add 4 Force of Will, 1 Fact or Fiction, 1 Ponder, 1 Merchant Scroll. It would probably help the Stax match-up, but at a great cost. Often times the pitched blue card is a bomb, hand-filter, or otherwise important card to your game-play.

EDIT: Fixed list.

[LordHomerCat]

For reference, I didn't think it'd be worth it to start a new thread with such a similar list.

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained mire

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whisper

4 Dark Confidant

4 Tendrils of Agony

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

This deck does indeed do a lot of damage to itself, but it's very consistent, and two Tendrils in a single turn is a fairly common play. I didn't feel like off-color Moxen were very good with all the Rituals unless I played Tolarian Academy and Sensei's Divining Top, but I was very under-impressed with the Top. It's really slow and mana intensive.

To make the change to add Force of Will, I would probably drop the 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Yawgmoth's Bargain, 2 Night's Whisper, and add 4 Force of Will, 1 Fact or Fiction, 1 Ponder, 1 Merchant Scroll. It would probably help the Stax match-up, but at a great cost. Often times the pitched blue card is a bomb, hand-filter, or otherwise important card to your game-play.

Uhhh, where are your dark rituals?  Also, are you running Cabal Ritual?

[M.Solymossy]

@ Mike (ROLAND)
I answered your questions when you called, but to recap:
This deck does mulligan more than it used to since their is less brainstorms, but this deck is really redundant, which is a good thing.   You will see solid hands much more than grimlong does, and a confidant is very good, but it is not needed.

@ PoliceHQ 
As Jimmy said, you don't have any rituals.  You're also playing 8 duress (which is WAY too much) and you're running more bombish cards in a deck that is designed to be a solid turn 3 deck, not a turn 1 or 2 deck.  Overall, your list is quite piss-poor.
0 off color moxen.  This is wrong.  you lose the possibility to cast turn 1 Confidant without wasting a rituals.  You also lose out on the twister/windfall play with mana up.  You're also not playing ponder.
Your mana base is identical to my list.
Your have 4 bounce, which is very unnatural for a longstyle storm list. 
This makes me think you started with my list, then modified it. If this is so, why  do you feel my list is weaker than yours?   If this is not, same question.

[policehq]

Uhhh, where are your dark rituals?  Also, are you running Cabal Ritual?

That list is missing 8 cards, and they are all Rituals. Sorry, I had some editing trouble getting rid of all the tags from the MWS clipboard.

You're also playing 8 duress (which is WAY too much) and you're running more bombish cards in a deck that is designed to be a solid turn 3 deck, not a turn 1 or 2 deck.  Overall, your list is quite piss-poor.
0 off color moxen.  This is wrong.  you lose the possibility to cast turn 1 Confidant without wasting a rituals.  You also lose out on the twister/windfall play with mana up.  You're also not playing ponder.
Your mana base is identical to my list.
Your have 4 bounce, which is very unnatural for a longstyle storm list. 
This makes me think you started with my list, then modified it. If this is so, why  do you feel my list is weaker than yours?   If this is not, same question.

Ponder is largely irrelevant, and would never be pointed out except that it had been restricted; even then, few agree with the restriction.

4 Thoughtseize in addition to 4 Duress is because of an undefined metagame and to attempt to make up for the loss of Force of Will. However, I think that playing 8 Duress will lead to less mulligans because of your reasoning.

The additional bounce is a response to Stax and Workshop aggro being more heavily played and a bad match-ups.

The list began with a 4 Night's Whisper, 4 Tendrils of Agony, 4 Dark Confidant, 4 Repeal list I saw in the Tournament Results forum ages ago. I wanted to play Null Rod in the sideboard like Vincent Forino, because the loss of Gush is going to bring back the use of Moxen. My Mana-base was close to yours, and still I probably prefer it with 2 Bloodstained Mire and leave Flooded Strand (which is awful) out of it. It was being tested, though.