[Article] The First Steps Forward

[Zherbus]

Link here.

The Vintage community is scrambling to perceive the upcoming metagame, whether it's to determine the objective best deck or to attack it from the outside. Stephen Menendian did an excellent job in not only beating me to the literary and journalistic punch, but predicting the key elements in the new Metagame. Expanding on that groundwork, and that of various decks from ICBM, I start making what I'd play for aggro-control in Vintage.

FYI - I'll eventually run out of Aliens quotes.

[eightywpm]

3 Trinket Mage + 4 Stfile + 0 Dreadnought = wtf?

Edit:  My bad... one in the trinkets section, not the dudes section.  Odd.
Note to self:  read entire decklist as other people may distribute cards differently than expected. 

[zeus-online]

Keep those quotes comming!

This just isn't my type of deck, but i could totally see it being good.

/Zeus

[personalbackfire]

Why no meddling mage?

[Zherbus]

It's a good question. Not because I didn't consider it or I believe it belongs, but because I should have included a section on it.

In years of playing against Fish, one of the most ineffective cards to me as always been Meddling Mage. I think it could be worked in to the sideboard once the format firms up a bit, but as far as a maindeck options is barely even a nuisance. There's too many important one-of's in the format and many of them will resolve before getting a Meddling Mage out. Even with the four-ofs, TFK stands a good chance of being run out before it. Mana Drain and Goblin Welder definitely should be online before Meddling Mage.

On top of that, removing a Meddling Mage is very easy. In Legacy, it's nice to call Plow and shutdown nearly the entire removal suite. In Vintage, there's going to be a lot of options to get rid of it in the case that you ACTUALLY need it off the table. There's a lot of singleton bounce in additional to more direct removal available. Then there's two different kinds of Red Elemental Blasts that deal with it as well, some of it could be maindecked.

Finally, naming a win condition is no guarantee, where as it could be an absolute bomb in other formats (think Meddling Mage on Enduring Idea in extended). There's a lot of diversity in win conditions. Everything will be available from a mix of Tendrils and Empty the Warrens to Tinker targets for starters. I just don't see it as powerful enough to include maindeck given the limited knowledge we have now.

[Ufactor]

Zherbus - I'm very surprised to see that not only are you NOT advocating 3cc at this time, but you are hyping Fish of all things.  While I understand after reading the article, that, this version of Fish has the same selling points (no unwinnable matches, rewards highly skilled plays, great late game follow through), I was (really, really, really!!!) hoping to see you post a new 3cc decklist after some tournament play.  Not to heist your thread, but I was thinking about something like this:

4 chalice of the void
2 cunning wish
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 night's whisper
4 thirst for knowledge

1 crucible of worlds
1 darksteel colossus
1 engineered explosives
1 platinum angel

ancestral recall
balance
brainstorm
demonic tutor
mystical tutor
ponder
time walk
tinker
vampiric tutor
yawgmoth's will

black lotus
lotus petal
mana vault
mox emerald
mox jet
mox pearl
mox ruby
mox sapphire
sol ring
2 flooded strand
4 island
4 polluted delta
1 strip mine
1 tundra
3 underground sea
1 wasteland
SB: 1 disenchant
SB: 1 gush/skeletal scrying
SB: 1 extirpate
SB: 4 pithing needle
SB: 4 serenity
SB: 2 swords to plowshares
SB: 2 tormod's crypt

[zeus-online]

I think a meta-game needs to be established before we can (hopefully) play 3CC/4CC/Keeper or whatever you like to call it

You really need to know which decks you are likely to face if you want to run a traditional control deck. And since decks can vary alot in type 1 you can't just build a "standard" version thats great against everything...i mean you've got:
Mass mana denial via. Artifacts
Oath of druids
Fast combo (Most are answerable by the same cards)
Combo-Control (Hulk, Slaver, Drain-tendrils probably)
Mass weenie.deck (Aggro)
Aggro-Control
Dredge.deck

Covering all that without even knowing which cards they're going to run is next to impossible.

/Zeus

[Zherbus]

I have a very good control build.

It's doing well in testing, but it likely won't see a public outing until I had a chance to say "yeah, I did it." I'll discuss it private though.

[Pomaxx]

interesting acticle.
personally i think that one of fishs biggest strenghts has been the mana denial route, backed up with early threads that set a serious clock. for this game plan Null Rod is essential and i consider it to be a key card for (my) fish builds.

I didn't take that path because you would have to sacrifice you’re own explosiveness, and I just don’t think it’s worth trying to make Vintage games play out like Legacy. And what happens when Rod doesn’t stick?

this argument doesnt convince me at all. getting an early Null Rod in play (which, against most decks, i prefer to spit out asap; read turn one or two if possible) does not take more of your own explosivness than a counterbalance or  a top of your own.
On the contrary, Null Rod takes from the explosivness of your opponent, which is exactly what i want. mana screwing or if this doesnt work (e.g. you miss to draw the wasteland) slowing them down.

you take fish into controlish waters, which simply is a different approach. i am looking forward to read some testing/ tournament experiences.


if you are interested, take a look into "improvement section", where i posted fish build of my own, more focussed on mana denial.

[Liam-K]

It's a good question. Not because I didn't consider it or I believe it belongs, but because I should have included a section on it.

In years of playing against Fish, one of the most ineffective cards to me as always been Meddling Mage. I think it could be worked in to the sideboard once the format firms up a bit, but as far as a maindeck options is barely even a nuisance. There's too many important one-of's in the format and many of them will resolve before getting a Meddling Mage out. Even with the four-ofs, TFK stands a good chance of being run out before it. Mana Drain and Goblin Welder definitely should be online before Meddling Mage.

On top of that, removing a Meddling Mage is very easy. In Legacy, it's nice to call Plow and shutdown nearly the entire removal suite. In Vintage, there's going to be a lot of options to get rid of it in the case that you ACTUALLY need it off the table. There's a lot of singleton bounce in additional to more direct removal available. Then there's two different kinds of Red Elemental Blasts that deal with it as well, some of it could be maindecked.

Finally, naming a win condition is no guarantee, where as it could be an absolute bomb in other formats (think Meddling Mage on Enduring Idea in extended). There's a lot of diversity in win conditions. Everything will be available from a mix of Tendrils and Empty the Warrens to Tinker targets for starters. I just don't see it as powerful enough to include maindeck given the limited knowledge we have now.

I wonder if this isn't at least partially a function of your tendency towards control decks featuring toolbox suites and silver bullets. 

While a blind call on a probable 4-of second turn might be easy to work around, once what an opponent's hand is telling him to do becomes more apparent that plan can often be disrupted specifically.  And while it's true the Mage can be targetted by spot removal, so can most fishes, and if he forces your opponent to spend the resources and turns it takes to blow him up he has done his job as tempo spell on legs.  What follows is that while he is not especially impressive alone, he is often a great second piece of disruption.  You are going to have to do X to get around my Y, or you are going to have to do X because I countered your Y, or you are going to have to do X because you already invested Y.  Now you have to find spot removal before you can further your game plan, and I get to attack for more turns and draw more annoyances.  Kinda sounds like fish to me.

Writing that makes me question why he seems so frequently to be run in quantities of either four or zero.  Two or three might feel nicer.

[KnowmaD]

First I have always liked reading you articals ,well A. I'm able an B. they're good.
Fish is a cool deck because it can evolve to fit meta. I don't see fish as having to be in a box of building code.   
Have to say that the grunts not high on my list for this build. Do I know the best  option. No.  Maybe more testing with the grunt is in order. I do like them just not here.
This is a quick possibility. 

 Dreadfish

4- dark confidant
3- trinket mage
2- phyrexian dreadnought 

4-stifle
4-force of will
4-thoughtseize
2-extirpate
2-swords to plowshares
1-echoing truth
1-engineered explosives
1-tormods crypt
1-pithing needle

1-sensei's diving top
1-demonic tutor
1-vampiric tutor
1-tinker
1-time walk
1-mystical tutor
1-ancestral recall
1-brainstorm
1-unearth
1-chromatic star

1-black lotus
1-lotus petal
1-mox jet
1-mox sapphire
1-mox pearl
4-wasteland
3-polluted delta
2-flooded strand
1-strip mine
3-underground sea
2-tundra
1-island

Sideboard, well thats more open to meta an personal preference. The disenchants  an katakis  are a good start. Leylines seem like a must at times. Lately its been the faerie macabre thats got my attention.   Green as a third color is worth looking at. I love the stp an would most likely play balance but having access to naturalize oxidize xantids  ex.. plus possible oathtrans board. Might be cool.       

I wanted to streamline into the direction of the dreadnought as the win an add an extra piece of control away from the graveyard.  Counterbalance can be real good. so its still high possibility for me. Maybe go down to one. I'm curious as to how they turn out for you. The extra thoughseize an extirpate is more me.
With the trinket mage i like to run the lone crypt main. A bit more tweekn is in order but the direction is good.

                                                                                                                                                                          knowmad

[Zherbus]

this argument doesnt convince me at all. getting an early Null Rod in play (which, against most decks, i prefer to spit out asap; read turn one or two if possible) does not take more of your own explosivness than a counterbalance or  a top of your own.
On the contrary, Null Rod takes from the explosivness of your opponent, which is exactly what i want. mana screwing or if this doesnt work (e.g. you miss to draw the wasteland) slowing them down.

It's not what Null Rod DOES when it resolves and sticks that I have a problem with. If you told me I was guaranteed to attain the benefits of Null Rod 55% of the time, I'd be more willing to accept it in aggro-control. My problem is how horrible "Fish" archetypes are when Null Rod isn't in play. It's men and marginal disruption spells against Moxen and Yawgmoth's Will. Once you lend credibility to that concern, you can see the path I merrily skipped down for this deck.

I wonder if this isn't at least partially a function of your tendency towards control decks featuring toolbox suites and silver bullets.

I definitely have those tendencies. I hate playing linear decks. However, I love Meddling Mage in other formats. It *is* tempo on legs in every format that lacks a restricted list. My deck preferences aren't coming into play as much as my experience with the card leaving me utterly unimpressed in Vintage.

You are going to have to do X to get around my Y, or you are going to have to do X because I countered your Y, or you are going to have to do X because you already invested Y.  Now you have to find spot removal before you can further your game plan, and I get to attack for more turns and draw more annoyances.  Kinda sounds like fish to me.

Yeah, that's a good basic premise of disruption. Works that way for control decks too. My problem with him is: How does he really disrupt effectively? I mean, it's two mana invested on a mainphase that is highly situational. A very high percentage of the time you just get a bear for two mana which is behind the curve for Vintage.