Counter-Top Magus - The Next Level of Vintage

[ErkBek]

If you asked anyone on my team what my favorite creature is, without hesitation they’d probably say “Becker loves Magus of the Future.”

Magus of the Future is such a great card. He generates such a ridiculous huge amount of card advantage that it doesn’t matter what your kill condition is, even if it’s just attacking with 2 power creatures.

When brainstorming ideas for the new format, I knew Sensei’s Divining Top was going to be one of the most played cards in the new Vintage, so I wanted to build a deck with “The Best Sensei’s Top.”

Sensei’s Top has some serious synergy with all of the following cards:

Counterbalance
Magus of the Future / Future Sight
Dark Confidant
Trinket Mage
Goblin Welder
Shuffle effects

I knew I couldn’t exploit Goblin Welder in a blue deck without turning into Slaver, so I scratched that card off pretty quickly. The rest all seemed doable.

Trinket Mage doesn’t necessarily have much synergy with Top by itself, though it performs critical functions for a “Top” deck to work. Trinket finds Sensei’s Top, finds solutions to resolved threats, shuffles the deck, is a 3 coster for Counterbalance, finds Lotus to power out Magus of the Future, the list goes on.

Magus of the Future with Sensei’s Top is just good times. If you ever get “stuck” with a card on top of the deck, simply tap the top, draw the card, and cast the top for a single mana. If you ever get to untap with a Magus in play you pretty much just win on the spot, even without Sensei’s Top. Magus can be a finisher, much what Salvagers is/was for Bomberman.

With all of these ideas floating around I put together a list and started testing it. Here’s what I’m playing now:

Artifact Accel 8
5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

Lands 16
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Underground

Control 13
4 FoW
3 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress

Draw/Tutor/Broken 18
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 Vamp
1 Demonic
1 Scroll
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
3 Sensei’s Top
3 Dark Confidant
2 Magus from the Motha Fuckin’ Future
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel

Utility 5
2 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Echoing Truth

Initially I was running 1 Ponder and 1 Aether Spellbomb, but they were cut for the 2 Duress. 1 Trinket Mage and 1 Echoing Truth have been cut for a Tinker and a Platinum Angel.

I’m not ready to present a full sideboard for this deck, there’s just so many ways you can take it. The board will probably shape up to look something like this:

1 Pithing Needle (names Bazaar all day)
1 Chalice of the Void (great trinket target vs. combo)
1 Stifle (occasionally you find yourself fearing the mini-tendrils)
2-3 Spell Snare (Oath, AK, Bobs, Null Rod, and Drains)
5-6 Graveyard hate
4-5 Workshop hate

I’m tossing around the idea of Bitterblossom in the board to hold down the ground vs. Workshop Aggro and Fish, though it’s possible these will just become Energy Fluxes or something like that.

This list has been very solid against everything we’ve put up against it. I’d highly recommend it. I really think this deck will be one of the premier blue control decks in the format.

Thanks for reading. As always, I’ll do my best to respond to your questions and comments.

-Eric Becker
Team GWS

[Zherbus]

I really like this. There's two minor tweak questions and a general design question I have.

1) I'd think, akin to getting Drain online, you might want a Petal to power out faster Counterbalances. I'm kind of answering my own question here, but my experience with Counterbalance in Vintage tell me it's more of a mid-game card. It's not real effective until you have some real mana to play with. It's not broken until you have the top online. Is that pretty much it?

2) Two Echoing Truths: As you lack a Tinker-Colossus finish, wouldn't a Chain of Vapor be a fine companion to a lone Echoing Truth? This leads me to my biggest question:

3) Why no blow out finish? I would expect there'd be a way to just win (like a lone storm card or something).

[meadbert]

Wow!  I am adding this to my test gauntlet today.  I do have some questions though.  Does this deck play out as more prison, more combo or basically do you just take what you get?

All with Confidents, Tops and Duress effects, which do you generally want to play on turn 1?
For instance if your hard were: Fetch, Mox, Top, Bob, Duress, Thoughtseize, Magus
How do you open with this hand?  Do you always play Bob first to get him started early or is better to open with Duress + Top so you can filter on turn 2?

There are a very high number of low cc black cards in this list.  Would more Underground Seas in the main make sense?  I realize that with 8 fetches you do have a lot of ways to find Underground, but it seems that hands with Island, Mox are a bit harder to keep.  Has this been the case at all or do 3 Underground Sea work out fine?

Has REB on Magus been much of a problem?  Also, how much of a problem has Null Rod been in testing?

[ErkBek]

I really like this. There's two minor tweak questions and a general design question I have.

1) I'd think, akin to getting Drain online, you might want a Petal to power out faster Counterbalances. I'm kind of answering my own question here, but my experience with Counterbalance in Vintage tell me it's more of a mid-game card. It's not real effective until you have some real mana to play with. It's not broken until you have the top online. Is that pretty much it?

Thanks Z.

I've been wanting to try Petal, though finding room for it would likely come at the cost of a Land. The speed boost would be nice in some openers, but don't think it's necessary. You have tons of other good turn 1 plays other than Counterbalance. Duress/Thoughtseize, Confidant, and Sensei's Top are all strong turn 1's that don't involve much for explosive mana.

You're right though. Counter-Top is a little more of a mid to late game lock. Running out a turn 1 Counterbalance is nothing like Draining a deck's turn 1 spell into something useful.

2) Two Echoing Truths: As you lack a Tinker-Colossus finish, wouldn't a Chain of Vapor be a fine companion to a lone Echoing Truth?

I'm running 2 Echoing Truths largely so I don't have to tutor up a solution to a card like Null Rod if it were to come down. One thing I worry about with Chain of Vapor is them copying it to some of my good perms.

3) Why no blow out finish? I would expect there'd be a way to just win (like a lone storm card or something).

I just don't see the need for one. If you've hit 10 spells in a turn with this deck you've already won.

Does this deck play out as more prison, more combo or basically do you just take what you get?

This deck somewhat plays out like SS, except instead of mana denial, it has more explosive plays, and somewhat of a combo finish. I like to think of it as "Bomberman with good cards."

All with Confidents, Tops and Duress effects, which do you generally want to play on turn 1?
For instance if your hard were: Fetch, Mox, Top, Bob, Duress, Thoughtseize, Magus

If I'm not worried about dying turn 1, I'd probably run out Bob turn 1. If the opponent FoW's it you'll just smash them with Thoughtseize/Duress/Top. You'll still have Magus + Trinket in hand for business, so you should be fine. If bob hits, it's going to be good times.

There are a very high number of low cc black cards in this list.  Would more Underground Seas in the main make sense?  I realize that with 8 fetches you do have a lot of ways to find Underground, but it seems that hands with Island, Mox are a bit harder to keep.  Has this been the case at all or do 3 Underground Sea work out fine?

Another Usea would probably be a good idea. I just recently fit in the 2 Duress so you're right that's a lot of black cards.

Has REB on Magus been much of a problem? 

Not really. I don't think very many decks can afford to run REB in the maindeck and if you're expecting the opponent to be bringing in 3-4 REBs, boarding out your 5 mana red spell is probably a good idea. As more sideboarded games are played with the deck, it's likely that a 4th Confidant will be desired since it dodges REB so well.

Also, how much of a problem has Null Rod been in testing?

Honestly, I haven't played against a good deck with Null Rod in it. All I can really say is this deck is better equiped to handle Rod than Slaver and Bomberman. The 2 Echoing Truths, the low mana curve, and the 6 Duress effects should all keep the Null Rod problem to a minimum (at least in theory).

[Xyre]

3 Mage + 3 Tops seems like a lot, personally; while the CounterbalanceTop engine is nice, I would expect the deck draws too many Tops. Cutting a Top (maybe for a storm card, if you want a bit of a fallback position) might smooth out draws.

Still, it's an interesting deck, like Sensei Sensei sans the usually mediocre Helm of Awakening. I would disagree though that the deck is readily equipped to fight Null Rod, as it's rather heavily built around Top (even if you don't need it for the deck to function appropriately, it turns Magus, Bob, and Counterbalance from adequate-to-mediocre to excellent) and Trinket Mage antics, and Magus' clunky mana cost seems bad if you can't access good mana acceleration.

[meadbert]

Once you mentioned SS I remembered how vulnerable Swampless SS is to Extirpate on Underground Sea.  Probably there should be a swamp in there somewhere in case of this.

[oneofchaos]

Trinket mage on jet or lotus is an option, I've won quite a few games playing CS (trinkets) under similiar circumstances.  When my volcanics are wastelanded, and extirpated away, I've often found trinket for ruby is an excellent answer and a great reason to play him.  It of course fails to be an awesome solution, but I do not play a basic mountain.

[ErkBek]

3 Mage + 3 Tops seems like a lot, personally; while the CounterbalanceTop engine is nice, I would expect the deck draws too many Tops. Cutting a Top (maybe for a storm card, if you want a bit of a fallback position) might smooth out draws.

I would disagree though that the deck is readily equipped to fight Null Rod, as it's rather heavily built around Top (even if you don't need it for the deck to function appropriately, it turns Magus, Bob, and Counterbalance from adequate-to-mediocre to excellent) and Trinket Mage antics, and Magus' clunky mana cost seems bad if you can't access good mana acceleration.

So which is it? Top is good or bad in here? I've considered going up to 4 Sensei's Top because it's just that good.

I never said a resolved Null Rod isn't a beating. I said my deck is better prepared to prevent it from resolving and is probably better against a resolved Rod than Slaver or Bomberman.

Honestly, I haven't played against a good deck with Null Rod in it. All I can really say is this deck is better equiped to handle Rod than Slaver and Bomberman. The 2 Echoing Truths, the low mana curve, and the 6 Duress effects should all keep the Null Rod problem to a minimum (at least in theory).

Once you mentioned SS I remembered how vulnerable Swampless SS is to Extirpate on Underground Sea.  Probably there should be a swamp in there somewhere in case of this.

Sounds like a Swamp needs to be fit into the maindeck or sideboard. I guess I didn't realize how much black was actually in the deck.

Turn 1 Thoughtseize/Duress off a basic Swamp is a really solid play vs. stax and it doesn't require drawing sideboard cards.

[Xyre]

3 Mage + 3 Tops seems like a lot, personally; while the CounterbalanceTop engine is nice, I would expect the deck draws too many Tops. Cutting a Top (maybe for a storm card, if you want a bit of a fallback position) might smooth out draws.

I would disagree though that the deck is readily equipped to fight Null Rod, as it's rather heavily built around Top (even if you don't need it for the deck to function appropriately, it turns Magus, Bob, and Counterbalance from adequate-to-mediocre to excellent) and Trinket Mage antics, and Magus' clunky mana cost seems bad if you can't access good mana acceleration.

So which is it? Top is good or bad in here? I've considered going up to 4 Sensei's Top because it's just that good.

I never said a resolved Null Rod isn't a beating. I said my deck is better prepared to prevent it from resolving and is probably better against a resolved Rod than Slaver or Bomberman.

Top is good, but it's less good in multiples. Unlike Sensei Sensei, your deck can't just randomly use two tops to generate infinite storm to play a Brain Freeze in hand, so having the extra top isn't necessarily good. Between everything, it would seem like you have enough Top-fetchers as it is. The only reason I can see for leaving it the way it is would be to guarantee a turn 1-2 Top; upping it to 4 seems like overkill.

[wiley]

I have looked into updating sensei sensei for the new meta as well, so obviously I like this.  For reference here are some of the older threads on Sensei, Sensei:
The Complete Sensei, Sensei Primer - Mike Daniels
Tops - GUnit

Currently your only route to victory is over the field of battle with modified bears.  How does this fare against something like shop aggro or dawn of the dead, where they can get out large and/or numerous creatures to clog up the board, and do it repeatedly?

Is tinker->robot actually pointless in this deck?  I would think that a platinum angel or colossus would be a good win/stall condition and that tinker already has synergy with the deck.

I also think that a lone pithing needle should be main here.  With slaver, ichorid, bomberman and so many other decks revolving around the activated abilities of specific cards this buys you a lot of time and games.

[ErkBek]

Is tinker->robot actually pointless in this deck?  I would think that a platinum angel or colossus would be a good win/stall condition and that tinker already has synergy with the deck.

I also think that a lone pithing needle should be main here.  With slaver, ichorid, bomberman and so many other decks revolving around the activated abilities of specific cards this buys you a lot of time and games.

Tinker - Dude was something I forgot to mention that might be worth sideboarding.

I don't know about maindeck Needle, I think I'd rather have Duress. If you were to add one, you can't cut a Blue card for it.

[RJ]

This is a great list Eric...but I guess you knew that.  I thought that Counterbalance/Top would become a major player coming up since Top should be everywhere.  Gratuitous use of Trinket Mage is also excellent.  Keep up the good work.

I see you changed your avatar to the Cary Cup, are you sending us a message?

[sundering jerk]

I have had a few months of T1 experiance with magus of the future and I even T8ed at ELDs with it. I ran this deck pretty much minus counterbalance and top. I can tell you this; You will crush blue decks with this deck, but with even ten slots dedicated to workshop decks you will still fail to Workshop aggro and goblins(which I forsee a lot of). So All I can say is if you're willing to accept it this deck is fun. Good luck!

[beder]

This is a nice idea, I tried something not similar but with the same spirit recently.

Here were my observations :
- even with multiple bounces and removal main deck, it was pretty difficult to succeed in dealing with board threat - especially with disruption made of duress effects - and at the same time continuing setting up my own board position.
- the clock with 2/X beater was very slow and sometimes just stopped by 1 or 2 creatures owned by opponents (mishra for instance)
- it was pretty difficult to play with only 4 or 5 semi threats, especially threats that are not clock or board controller. I was in a strange position, trying to control the game like control, without all the tools of control, and not having access to the nice finishers of controls - morphling, meloku or darksteel. But perhaps didn't i play that correctly.

As a conclusion, I truly think "tinker+ darksteel or platinium" belongs to the maindeck. i would even say "tinker+platinium", considering :
- this deck's capability to set up an "anti platinium removal" hard lock (except duplicant)
- platinium capability to anihilate temporarily - until being removed from board - opponent's board or card advantage

I would perhaps try :
-1 fetch, -1scroll, -1 echoing => +1 tinker, +1platinium, +1 dark confidant (too good right now, especially in a deck with this kind of tempo, to play only 3 according to me)

[Dr_Tongue]

Wouldn't 4x DC be better to insure you get one early for your draw engine than the 3x ? It seems that you have alot of self inflicted damage with a DC engine + 4x Seize as well, Would more Duress over Seize be better?

I have looked into updating sensei sensei for the new meta as well, so obviously I like this.  For reference here are some of the older threads on Sensei, Sensei:
The Complete Sensei, Sensei Primer - Mike Daniels
Tops - GUnit

 I like the Sensei combo as well and have been tinkering with it off and on. I played a Tendrils kill Sensei build that I went undeafeted through 6 rounds of swiss with back in 2004. Workshop owned me in the T8 but it was my first IRL Vintage event.

 The Helm has always been a hinderance helping your opponent, but with the Painter's Servant you can stretch it out to a 4 card combo for infinte spells/draw your deck with Servant + Sap Medallion or Nightscape Familiar + Top + Sight, although obviously 4<3 card combo's. The Nightscape has a neat regenerate/chump blocker status as well to help with the combat phase as well as being interesting with Painter and a Sphere/Thorn negation (the first one anyways). I was thinking of trying some kind of hybrid mix with Painter combo or the Tendrils kill via infinte spells. Still needs alot of work but it's fun when it goes off.

"West Coast" Wiley, J.

[wiley]

Its pretty janky, and I certianly don't think its worth exploring, but cloud key allows for a top sight combo that doesn't help your opponent.

My personal preference is still leading me through UBw builds like GUnit's right now.  I don't get to test this one much since I spend more time on a different project right now, but this build will be added to my gauntlet for the new meta for sure.

As far as duress/thoughtseize for a pithing needle:  I personally think that its worth it.  Both are preemptive disruption spells and you will effectively have 5 of both thanks to trinket mages.  I just think it is looking too powerful not to try out.

[Zherbus]

Its pretty janky, and I certianly don't think its worth exploring, but cloud key allows for a top sight combo that doesn't help your opponent.

I think with Magus down, you wouldn't need it (though a lone Wish to get Brainfreeze would be something I want to try). But if you did want to be cute and go that way, Helm of Awakening is probably superior despite it helping the opponent a bit.

[The Demon]

I have had a few months of T1 experiance with magus of the future and I even T8ed at ELDs with it. I ran this deck pretty much minus counterbalance and top. I can tell you this; You will crush blue decks with this deck, but with even ten slots dedicated to workshop decks you will still fail to Workshop aggro and goblins(which I forsee a lot of). So All I can say is if you're willing to accept it this deck is fun. Good luck!

Not necessarily, if you are playing against a more traditional stax deck you could very well be fine.  You have dudes, and as someone who has played a ton of stax that is not that is in my best interest.  The deck runs more then enough bounce and a good toolbox to have a decent game against stax. 

Now, that being said, Workshop aggro is probably a little different.  The artifact beaters are probably going to be overwhelming. 

As far as goblins go, the first game is probably going to be rough.  You can hope for a quickly assembled top/balance lock and early countermagic and disruption.  As far as game two goes, boarding out Bobs for the oh so embarrassing but effective plague bearer is not a bad plan.  Besides, GWS is tricky.  You may just see us break a Volcanic Island and pyroclasm the board.

[Shock Wave]

I played a similar version of this deck for quite a while and found it to be quite strong, until the restriction of Brainstorm. Since then, I've found the deck to be very underwhelming, as it has lost once of its most potent synergies with Counterbalance. Also, my teammates and I have found that Yawgmoth's Will loses to much of its early game "Umph" without the Brainstorm engine. Early Will plays are now very weak with this deck, whereas before it was likely that if I drew Will early, I could get one off on Turn 3 that would get me far enough ahead to win. I think that Magus is cute, but falls into the "danger of cool things". I think you'd be much better off running the 4th Confidant in at least one of those two slots.

I don't like Trinket Mage and the accompanying toolbox (especially without Brainstorm), but I feel that it is an equally viable approach when compared to the combo or Tinker plan. I'm curious to see how this deck continues to develop, although I am skeptical of its capabilities post June 20th.

[ErkBek]

Thanks for the input everyone.

It seems the biggest critique everyone has is the 2 power beaters as the only kill condition. Some good points have been made, specifically the one about Mishra's Factory taking out my team. I think my logic on only needing 2 power-dudes was flawed. I opted to run as many slots as I could afford to on utility cards thinking that it made my deck more flexible, when in reality my deck lost flexibility because its kill condition was rather inflexible.

Tinker -> DSC or Tinker -> Plat are the options for filling this weakness. I'm thinking Platinum Angel is the way to go since Counter-Top protects it well, Plat solves all the theoretical problems that could come up, and Platinum can auto-stabilize a declining life total from Confidants/Thoughtseizes or Goyfs/Juggernauts/Dreadnoughts/large men.

Cutting a Trinket Mage for Tinker seems like an upgrade. I do feel that the Trinket package (maindeck EE and Crypt) is still worth running even with only 2 Trinket Mages since both cards are exceptional on their own. 1 Echoing Truth can probably be cut now that the deck can ignore some threats by simply Tinkering out Platinum Angel. If the loss of a blue card becomes a problem, a Duress can be cut for Mana Drain or something

I've updated the initial post to reflect my current list.

I played a similar version of this deck for quite a while and found it to be quite strong, until the restriction of Brainstorm. Since then, I've found the deck to be very underwhelming, as it has lost once of its most potent synergies with Counterbalance. Also, my teammates and I have found that Yawgmoth's Will loses to much of its early game "Umph" without the Brainstorm engine. Early Will plays are now very weak with this deck, whereas before it was likely that if I drew Will early, I could get one off on Turn 3 that would get me far enough ahead to win. I think that Magus is cute, but falls into the "danger of cool things". I think you'd be much better off running the 4th Confidant in at least one of those two slots.

I don't like Trinket Mage and the accompanying toolbox (especially without Brainstorm), but I feel that it is an equally viable approach when compared to the combo or Tinker plan. I'm curious to see how this deck continues to develop, although I am skeptical of its capabilities post June 20th.

I think this is the closest thing I've seen you give to positive feedback on a list in the Open forum, so I'll take this as you think the deck is alright. Let me assure you, Magus of the Future is not in the deck because he does cool things, he's in here because the card wins games outright, with or without a Sensei's Top. Everyone that's helped me test the deck has been very impressed with Magus, he just gives the deck broken plays.

[Appletree]

Maybe Skullclamp is a really good option in here as it helps vs. aggro, gets rid of problematic Dark Confidants very efficiently and is Trinket-Mageable ( ). Also, has anyone tested Tombstalker? It's pretty bad if it gets flipped over by a Confidant, but I've really liked them as a finisher.

Btw., really nice list...like it a lot!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@appletree

Skullclamp seems like a pretty good idea, I know Jamison liked it a lot in his rg beatz build (monkey missiles), because "trades" are something that aren't so good for your opponents anymore. However, I'm not really too sure confidant is going to be that huge of an issue with the amount of tops in this build. Ultimately, I think this deck generates enough card advantage on its' own (unlike rg beatz), and the slot would be better spent on an answer like aether spellbomb.

I've tested tombstalker in a number of things. It just never seems to hit the table as fast as I'd like it to, and has much less of an effect on the game than tinker+robot would
nice ideas though.

[LUPO]

I know it would wreak havok on your mana base, but have you thought about Tarmogoyf?

[Shock Wave]

I think this is the closest thing I've seen you give to positive feedback on a list in the Open forum, so I'll take this as you think the deck is alright. Let me assure you, Magus of the Future is not in the deck because he does cool things, he's in here because the card wins games outright, with or without a Sensei's Top. Everyone that's helped me test the deck has been very impressed with Magus, he just gives the deck broken plays.

Future Sight also creates savage, broken plays, but there is a reason it is not played: The mana cost is very prohibitive. It is going to be very difficult to resolve a Magus, since that line of play likely involves you first resolving a Trinket Mage and then also having a Magus at your disposal and some sort of backup (FoW or Counterbalance). If you find you're resolving Magus often enough with your current configuration, then kudos to you. I just fail to see how that is possible by looking at your list and taking your game plan into consideration.

[DarkfnTemplar]

I agree. Playing a blue mana intensive 5c spell has drain written all over it. As far as his brokenness goes, this deck is not combo. It is not efficient enough to be combo. It's only broken enough to pave the way for the win, not necessarily end the game.
I think magus should be cut, but hey, its your deck and your favorite card. I just hope no one flames me when I come out with Dawn of the Dead 6: Resurrection of the Jitted Drudge Skeletons.

[ErkBek]

I think magus should be cut,

Have you played the deck?

[TimeBeing]

I think magus should be cut,

Have you played the deck?

ok playing devils advocate (i like the dec a lot) but with tinker/plat could the Magus just be changed into the enchantment versions? or is it because they are duress proof?

[ErkBek]

I think magus should be cut,

Have you played the deck?

ok playing devils advocate (i like the dec a lot) but with tinker/plat could the Magus just be changed into the enchantment versions? or is it because they are duress proof?

Magus is a pretty large blocker against Fish, much like Salvagers is for bomberman. Attacking for a couple points of damage is kinda important since the deck doesn't devote much space toward its kill. Also, it's important to note that once Magus hits you often can play Time Walk the following turn and Yawg Will it back the next turn. You end up getting 2 or 3 attack phases in a row, so that 2 adds up.

I don't think there's enough STP or Lightning Bolts to worry about Magus getting killed once it hits play. Having a Duress proof way to draw a ton of cards is real nice.

Magus' benefits outweigh the cons.

[The Demon]

I agree. Playing a blue mana intensive 5c spell has drain written all over it. As far as his brokenness goes, this deck is not combo. It is not efficient enough to be combo. It's only broken enough to pave the way for the win, not necessarily end the game.
I think magus should be cut, but hey, its your deck and your favorite card. I just hope no one flames me when I come out with Dawn of the Dead 6: Resurrection of the Jitted Drudge Skeletons.

And the deck runs all sort of protection to resolve it's bombs.  And if you resolve the card between top, fetches, and tutors you will almost always win the game.  It is almost the equivalent of slaving someone as far as tempo goes.  Slaving someone does not win the game, but it may as well right?  Is that play bad?

[DireLemming]

Could the mana base be stretched to support an Academy Ruins? Recurring EE or Lotus seems pretty savage.