PitchLong Starting Hands

[Bongo]

Since I'm trying to get better at playing Combo, I want to hear the opinions from other people about the following starting hands (I'm using this list http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18148). This is assuming you're on the play against an opponent likely playing Force of Will. Some of the hands may seem trivial, but I want to make sure that I can figure out the right play.


No 1: Dark Ritual, Delta, Cruel Bargain, Ancestral, Demonic, Duress, Grim Tutor


No 2: Island, Ancestral, Dark Ritual, Bloodstained Mire, Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Force


No 3: Brainstorm, Demonic, Lotus Petal, 2x Delta, Yawg Bargain, Sol Ring


No 4: Imperial Seal, Timetwister, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Island, Gifts, Underground Sea


Bonus question: How would you play these hands when you're on the draw and opponent leads with Delta, go?

[M.Solymossy]

Cruel Bargain is god-aweful.  Get that out of your deck!   It requires you to either have 3 mana up, or cast a ritual to use, and is way too resource dependent if your opponent counters it.

[Bongo]

It requires you to either have 3 mana up, or cast a ritual to use, and is way too resource dependent if your opponent counters it.

Doesn't that also apply to Grim Tutor?

[Tempus]

No. You can cast of Ritual + mox and still have B floating, which is alot better

[ErkBek]

No 1: Dark Ritual, Delta, Cruel Bargain, Ancestral, Demonic, Duress, Grim Tutor


No 2: Island, Ancestral, Dark Ritual, Bloodstained Mire, Imperial Seal, Grim Tutor, Force


No 3: Brainstorm, Demonic, Lotus Petal, 2x Delta, Yawg Bargain, Sol Ring


No 4: Imperial Seal, Timetwister, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Island, Gifts, Underground Sea

The way you play these hands is obviously going to be dependent on what your opponent is playing. If your opponent is playing Wastelands and you've only got 1 land, 90% of the time you should be leading with the draw spell. Otherwise, you should be leading with an Underground -> Duress into a draw spell the following turn.

Assuming Delta, go.

1) Duress turn 1. Ancestral turn 2. See where those 4 new cards you've drawn can take you. You've got Rit + DT so things are looking good.

2) Seal for Lotus. Lotus, Ancestral. If Ancestral is countered you can Grim for Necro and cast it at 14 life and a huge GY.

3) Underground, Ring, go. Untap, draw, cast BS. Fetch.

4) This hand is tough. I'm guessing there's a better play than this, but considering time restrictions in tournament play, this is the play that comes to mind only having about 1 minute to think about it: Underground, Seal -> Lotus. Untap, Island, Ring, Petal, Gifts. If countered Lotus -> Twist this turn. Not sure what I'd get with gifts, but remember you've got a Twister and Lotus in hand so you're in business.

[Bongo]

3) Underground, Ring, go. Untap, draw, cast BS. Fetch.

Wouldn't it be better to go Island, Ring, go. Untap, draw cast BS, fetch? This way you're safe against Wasteland and still able to cast Brainstorm in case your opponent stifles the second Delta.

I'm also unsure about No 4, the Gifts is tough here. Is there a better option than, say, Ancestral, Demonic, Vamp, Walk?

[ErkBek]

3) Underground, Ring, go. Untap, draw, cast BS. Fetch.

Wouldn't it be better to go Island, Ring, go. Untap, draw cast BS, fetch? This way you're safe against Wasteland and still able to cast Brainstorm in case your opponent stifles the second Delta.

Yes, Island would be the play here if you think they might have any type of mana denial. All of my plays were assuming they didn't.

I'm also unsure about No 4, the Gifts is tough here. Is there a better option than, say, Ancestral, Demonic, Vamp, Walk

That sounds like a pretty good gifts pile.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Against an opponent with countermagic, I don't hate the idea of grabbing Force Of Will with Imperial Seal in scenario 4. I have no problem with Eric's planned 1-2 combination, but I do notice that that leaves 0 mana. On the other hand, if I were to grab Force Of Will and use it to force Timetwister through (At the expense of your Gifts unfortunately) I will have at least the Lotus Petal mana available, which greatly increases the chances of comboing out with your new seven. Both plans are meant to circumvent an opposing counterspell, but I believe the aforementioned plan does so more efficiently.

Later,
Dave

[Moxlotus]

No 4: Imperial Seal, Timetwister, Sol Ring, Lotus Petal, Island, Gifts, Underground Sea
 

On the play I'd go for that turn 1 twister if my opponent kept his 7.  If its forced, you have turn 2 Gifts.  If Twister gets through, then you start the game off with a sea and sol ring in play.  If he went to 6 then I'd do what Becker said.  I place a high value on making your opponent mull his opening 7.

[Bongo]

Interesting.

You're going alll-in with the Twister, and there is a possibility that you won't win next turn.
However, with the Gifts play, you win for sure the next turn (if it resolves).

Am I correct to assume Eric's line of play is better if you're playing, and Tin_Mox plan if you're drawing (since your opponent is likely to have UU open, threatening Mana Drain).


Another hand:

Mystical, Demonic, Grim, Delta, Sol Ring, Mox Emerald, Merchant Scroll

[Moxlotus]

You're going alll-in with the Twister, and there is a possibility that you won't win next turn.
However, with the Gifts play, you win for sure the next turn (if it resolves).

If it turns out you're in the mirror, then a turn 3 kill isn't very good.  If you're on the draw against Slaver a turn 3 kill trying to get through drain and force is pretty crappy.  And even if Gifts resolves you're not guaranteed to win.  It might just be that he hasn't gotten drain mana up yet.  Or on his second turn he'll slam down the tinker into titan and nuke your entire manabase.  Or he puts down turn 1 welder.  You gift, then he thirsts on his turn and welds in titan.  I'm also assuming that you know he has force so he knows you're playing combo.  The decision on whether to throw out a turn 1 twist when you have a turn 3 win otherwise has a lot to do with body language and how well of a read you have on your opponent.

Against an aggro control player setting up a Gifts isn't that good of a play.  They could waste yoru land.  Or play duress/stifle/force/reb/whatver.  They could slam down a null rod.  Even cursecatcher craps in your plan.  If they kept an opening 7 against combo, its because they have a lot of disruption.  I'd make them mull that and hope they get into a creature and land heavy hand.  Plus you still start with 3 mana on the board.

Mystical, Demonic, Grim, Delta, Sol Ring, Mox Emerald, Merchant Scroll

This is looking kinda slow with all of the blue tutors.  I'm tempted to go emerald, ring, delta into sea, DT for Academy pass.  Untap scroll for recall and cast it with academy.  Now you still have sea+sol ring untapped and your hand is mystical, grim, 4 new cards. You might have drawn a d7 or a ritual.  If just mana/bounce/duress, then mystical for desire EOT and hit a desire for ~5.  I generally place a low value on Desire most of the time, but when you have a number of limited tutors its stock rises.

[XxtSundaybxX]

At a first glance at scenario 4, imp seal for force to protect your twister was my first thought. However if your assuming your playing against CS or a control type deck, its probably not the best play because you need to pass the turn and allow them theyre 2nd land drop. This gives them access to drain + force if they did have the force turn 1. Therefore i would just go for the twister on turn 1 and if they do have the force then you do have gifts on turn 2.

[Bongo]

Moxlotus: I was referring to Tin_Mox response.
Actually the more I think about it, the plan of t1 Twister, t2 Gifts in case it gets countered seems correct (that is, if your opponent keeps his 7, otherwise I'd go with the solution Eric suggested).
Now, what would you get with your Gifts pile if it resolves?

The all-tutor hand is indeed slow, I was even considering mulliganing, but wanted to hear if there's a good way to play that hand, since similar hands come up quite often.

Another two hands:

1. USea, Mox Ruby, Mox Pearl, Vampiric, Grim Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Force - on the play against UWb Fish

2. Ancestral, Mox Jet, Imperial Seal, Delta, Force - you mulliganed to 6 (on the draw) and just drew Dark Ritual, the opponent went Island, go, Delta, go (I'm suspecting he's playing DrainTendrils)

[Bongo]

Accidentally double-posted, so instead of deleting it, here's another hand:

Grim Tutor, Misdirection, Dark Ritual, Merchant Scroll, Imperial Seal, Ponder, Delta

[SadPanda]

2. Ancestral, Mox Jet, Imperial Seal, Delta, Force - you mulliganed to 6 (on the draw) and just drew Dark Ritual, the opponent went Island, go, Delta, go (I'm suspecting he's playing DrainTendrils)

If you're on the draw I would play jet, delta, crack delta for Underground and seal for Necropotence leaving yourself the ability to Ancestral if you so choose.

[Moxlotus]

1. USea, Mox Ruby, Mox Pearl, Vampiric, Grim Tutor, Cabal Ritual, Force - on the play against UWb Fish
 

Hmm. that's a tough one.  My first instinct is to rit and then grim for academy and vamp for a d7.  You survive wasteland this way and still have business while staying duress-proof.  If your d7 is countered, then you're in a position to topdeck anythign.  The force is looking somewhat useless in this hand.  If that sea was a fetch it would be a hell of a lot better and you could just vamp up necro and go to town

Ancestral, Mox Jet, Imperial Seal, Delta, Force - you mulliganed to 6 (on the draw) and just drew Dark Ritual, the opponent went Island, go, Delta, go (I'm suspecting he's playing DrainTendrils)

I'm going to assume the end is a typo and he actually only has 1 land in hand.
To me there are 2 plays here: Imp for Lotus before you ancestral or ancestral and then afterwards Imp for something.  I don't think you can kill on turn 1 here, so I'd ancestral first, then Imp based on what I drew (probably getting necro or Lotus).  You could kill on turn 1, but your hand would be lotus, rit (for 5 black), force, 2 unknowns.  That's probably not going to get it done.  Or the ultimate ballsy play of rit before the Imp seal, so after you ancestral you will have BB, Lotus, force, 2 unknowns.

Grim Tutor, Misdirection, Dark Ritual, Merchant Scroll, Imperial Seal, Ponder, Delta

Straight forward.  Delta-swamp, imp for necro.  Cast necro turn 2 with misD backup.  Win target game.

[Bongo]

Yeah, that was a typo - it should have been: "Ancestral, Mox Jet, Imperial Seal, Delta, Force - you mulliganed to 5 (on the draw) and just drew Dark Ritual, the opponent went Island, go"

I'm inclined to go Delta, Island, Ancestral, see what I get and then Seal for the missing part. I was just wondering if Seal first would be worth it, but after thinking about it, this play is safer since you can recover better if your Ancestral gets countered.

A few other hands:

1. Academy, DRit, Demonic, Mox Pearl, Will, Rebuild, Delta - on the play against Slaver

2. Island, DRit, Mox Jet, Gifts, Cabal Ritual, Force, Grim Tutor - on the draw against DrainTendrils, opponent goes Delta, go. You draw Time Walk.

3. Cabal Ritual, Swamp, Mystical, Merchant Scroll, Lotus Petal, Delta, Gifts - on the draw against unknown opponent (Flooded, go). You draw Mox Ruby.

[Smmenen]

No 1: Dark Ritual, Delta, Cruel Bargain, Ancestral, Demonic, Duress, Grim Tutor

This is actually a classic "long" scenario. 

I disagree with Eric (Becker) on this one. JD used to argue with me endlessly on this play.    I think the correct play is to play Ancestral on turn one and Duress on turn two.   There is only a 40% chance that your opponent will be able to stop your recall, which gives you odds on it resolving.  If it doesn't, they've spent a force and you can buy time to Duress them.   

[Tin_Mox5831]

Interesting.

You're going alll-in with the Twister, and there is a possibility that you won't win next turn.
However, with the Gifts play, you win for sure the next turn (if it resolves).

Actually, my plan wants nothing to do with turn three. The reason I want to Twister with Force backup is to win on turn two. None of the other plans have any mana when their bomb goes off, be it the turn one Timetwister or the turn two Gifts Ungiven. I want to apply pressure with a hand like this rather than take yet another turn. Not to mention the fact that I don't think you can win immediately after an untap with Gifts here anyway. You simply don't have enough mana acceleration to end the game here, and if you grab assorted mana pieces, you'll have no bomb to fuel with them. Turn one Timetwister here may have a slightly better chance of resolving since it doesn't potentially have to get past FoW+Mana Drain, but you'll run out of steam if you fail to draw a black-producing mana artifact: Something that happens all too often when you tap completely out for a Draw-7.

But I'm pretty much retired, I could be dead wrong.

Later,
Dave

[Lemnear]

No 1: Dark Ritual, Delta, Cruel Bargain, Ancestral, Demonic, Duress, Grim Tutor

This is actually a classic "long" scenario. 

I disagree with Eric (Becker) on this one. JD used to argue with me endlessly on this play.    I think the correct play is to play Ancestral on turn one and Duress on turn two.   There is only a 40% chance that your opponent will be able to stop your recall, which gives you odds on it resolving.  If it doesn't, they've spent a force and you can buy time to Duress them.  

Guess so ... this hand's telling me that you won't fetch a swamp and Duress on your turn 1. Fetching a U.Sea leaves you open to Wasteland after your Duress. But by casting your Ancestral first you have any chance to find another land, mox, etc. to continue play on turn 2. Even if it's stoped your turn 2 will be huge.

[Fraggle]

Alright, now lets say you are going second.  You know your opponent is plating with Force of Will, and Misdirections, and maybe even Commandeer (who knows why) and they played fetch, Tropical, Mystic Remora.  Would this change the way you play those above hands? 

I'm toying with the idea of trying to bring enchantress to Vintage (once again who knows why) and I would honestly be interested in how this might effect your play.

[Lemnear]

What question is this? First of all I don't know the hand of my opponent then he's dropping a Remora. Do you? So why changing my style of playing due to an unkown hand? Of course it's telling my that I might be playing against a pretty tough control deck but woldn't change my style of playing. IMO it could be more fatal to wait until he drops more mana. Even if he could misdirect (not Force) your ancestral it's not given that he could counter your second spell, especially with the named Long-hand-configuration.

There are much to much "what could happen" szenarios in your post we can discuss endless.

@Fraggle: Guess the question is how Long effects enchantress.  I doubt it could be the other way round...

[Fraggle]

@Fraggle: Guess the question is how Long effects enchantress.  I doubt it could be the other way round...

Agreed, I was just trying to see if people would play different, and the answer is no.  Thanks for the post, and apologies if this was perceived as an attempt to derail a thread.

[Bongo]

I have to say that I don't use the listed from the opening post anymore, the current list I'm using is Demonic Attorney's winning list with Tinker/Jar and Academy (you'll find it in the Tournament reports subforum).
I'll post my answers to the hands posted above, please tell me if there are better plays:

1. Academy, DRit, Demonic, Mox Pearl, Will, Rebuild, Delta - on the play against Slaver

Delta->Sea, Pearl, Demonic for Twister. Draw, Academy, Twister.
I was thinking about going for Necro, but you can recast the Twister if it gets countered with Will, if you draw another mana-source in your draw step. With Necro you need another black source, the odds there are lower.

2. Island, DRit, Mox Jet, Gifts, Cabal Ritual, Force, Grim Tutor - on the draw against DrainTendrils, opponent goes Delta, go. You draw Time Walk.

Island, Jet, Ritual, eot Gifts for Ancestral, Lotus, Demonic, Necro.
If that gets countered, turn 2 Time Walk, extra turn Grim Tutor for Necro.
You'll have two draw steps, so the Grim Tutor target may change depending on what you draw.

3. Cabal Ritual, Swamp, Mystical, Merchant Scroll, Lotus Petal, Delta, Gifts - on the draw against unknown opponent (Flooded, go). You draw Mox Ruby.

Delta-> Island, Ruby, Merchant Scroll for Ancestral, Petal, Ancestral.
If that gets countered, turn 2 swamp, Cabal, Gifts for Lotus, Demonic, Necro, Tinker.
(I've removed Merchant Scroll from the maindeck, so this example might not be optimal)


I'm pretty sure there are better solutions than the ones I listed here, especially better Gifts piles.

[Shean]

2. Island, DRit, Mox Jet, Gifts, Cabal Ritual, Force, Grim Tutor - on the draw against DrainTendrils, opponent goes Delta, go. You draw Time Walk.

Island, Jet, Ritual, eot Gifts for Ancestral, Lotus, Demonic, Necro.
If that gets countered, turn 2 Time Walk, extra turn Grim Tutor for Necro.
You'll have two draw steps, so the Grim Tutor target may change depending on what you draw.

If the opponent goes Delta, go, I would cast Gifts before they get a chance to drop a 2nd land to get Mana Drain online.  I've been trying to think of a better Gifts pile, but I'm still inexperienced with the deck as well.

[Bongo]

Yeah, probably should cast that Gifts in the upkeep to raise the odds of resolving.

I'm also unsure about the Gifts for the third hand, because you can't make multiple plays when they give you Demonic and Tinker (unless you draw a manasource in your draw-step).

[Shean]

I'm also unsure about the Gifts for the third hand, because you can't make multiple plays when they give you Demonic and Tinker (unless you draw a manasource in your draw-step).

Yeah, I've been thinking about it, but I can't think of a pile that ensures that you can drop a bomb the same turn.

[Bongo]

This is another tricky starting-hand with Gifts (mulled to 6):

Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Gifts, Imperial Seal, Mox Pearl, Yawgmoth's Will

I'm on the play, and I know I'm up against the Pitchlong mirror, he kept his seven. Now, this hand is pretty juicy, but how can I ensure a turn 2 win through a possible Duress and/or Force?

[Harlequin]

I got for the Turn1 Kill.  This plan loses to Force of will, but I don't think you can get any more consistancy by waiting until turn 2.  Because I think you'd be hardpressed to find a turn 2 win that would win through a turn 1 duress.


Lotus, Pearl -> Gifts 3 cards in hand.
Dark Rit, Tolarian, Mana Crypt, Desire (or bargin)

No matter what they give you, you are going to Desire for a ton with mana available, and Imperial seal to find tendrils this turn. 

Now, they actually might -not- give you Desire, fearing the last three cards in your hand are mana.  Lets assume they give you Crypt and Desire because that's actually the "smartest" if they don't know your remaning cards.  There's a chance they give you double mana which just gives you more storm.

play: petal, Crypt, Will.
Lotus, Petal, Tolarian (UUUU), Sac lotus -> Rit (UUUUBBBBB), Desire for  10 spells with UBB, imperial seal in hand, and uncracked petal.

The "best" combo they can give you is actually Tolarian + Desire, which would be really dumb if the last cards in your hand are moxen/mana.  They are basically handing you double blue and Desire... but even if they do you still have a win...
Play: Petal, Tolarian, Will.
Lotus, Petal, Crypt, Sac Petal for Rit Lotus for U and tap crypt for desire for 9 spells with BB floating and Imperial seal in hand.

*Note if you don't run Desire you can do the same with Bargin.  I think 9 free spells is probably a bit better than draw 14-16 cards.

[Bongo]

Yeah, going straight for the turn 1 kill seems to be the best, nice Gifts pile!

Another starting hand (mulled to six):

Underground Sea, Sol Ring, Vampiric, Grim Tutor, Mox Emerald, Ponder

You're on the draw against Drain Tendrils and he goes Delta, go. You draw Dark Ritual.