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Author Topic: UWB Fish  (Read 2186 times)
Prodigal_Sorceress
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« on: August 02, 2008, 01:55:59 am »

I really hate to start a new thread, but I really do need help. Here is what I was thinking of:

//Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory

//Creatures
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours


//Other
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Pithing Needle
3 Null Rod
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
_____________

Sideboard

2x Extirpate
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Meddling Mage
2x Energy Flux
1x Null Rod
3x Duress
3x ?

I'm still not quite sure how to pilot this deck, but I think that I am getting better. I am really not sure how the sideboard is gonna work out, but the mainboard seems pretty solid to me. I see a lot of Oath/Tendrils/Workshop Aggro in my meta, so I'm not quite sure how this would stand up to decks like CS or Shop Combo. I am really open to ideas, I am still learning about the format. I origionally thought of running Mystic Remora, but I was told that was a no-no in this kind of deck. The mana-base seems a little questionable to me, but I really want to keep the Strip mine/Waste effects, and the Factories are always fun with Standstill in play.
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 02:42:53 am »

In regards to your list, Ninja is really iffy. You just don't have enough early men (Factory active AND paying 1U is pretty darn late in the game) to get him rolling reliably. Also, you just don't have enough men for him to reliably work period. Cabal Therapy is a huge card that needs re-examining. I'd run Duress or Thoughtseize over it any day. It's benefits aren't enough and, again, you don't run enough men, let alone men you want to get rid of. Also, Trinket Mage loses a ton of potency if you're running Null Rod.

Finally, I wrote an article about UWB, but it's not exactly conventional wisdom in the eyes of the usual Fish people. A preliminary list and explanations can be found here.

The core of Jotun Grunt, Dark Confidant, and Trinket Mage (with his package of awesomeness) allows wide flexibility to hit the format where you need. There's been a few updates to the list in that article I posted.

My list had only one plow main, but it could be more in the board (I added two myself, cutting the Maindeck one for another Counterbalance). I don't run Mage at all, but again it's my biases coming into play here. When I build, I always imagine the other side of the table. Mage has never been a contributing factor to a loss in Vintage to me. In fact, Disenchants and Kataki's went away too. I wanted anti-storm cards. Leylines got ripped out for Jailer and another Crypt too.

(Maindeck -1 Plow +1 Counterbalance as a "common" metagame call)

3 Yixid Jailer
3 Energy Flux
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Wasteland
1 Old Man of the Sea

The general, severely rough, plan is:

Ichorid

I have the maindeck Needle and Strips, but more importantly I have the maindeck Grunts which will force them to have to win early or not at all. Post board, the Jailers and the Crypt come in. Against the Manaless (or near Manaless builds) you can bring in Spheres too just to make their anti-hate more impossible to land.


Pitch Long and Grim Long


What I lack in Null Rod, I more than make up for in Counterbalance. There's no Rebuild for Counterbalance. Post board, I have the Spheres and the man-plan isn't so great against me. The downside here, as with any Aggro-control list, is that they will always have the ability to just go broken and you just might not have the goods fast enough.

Slaver

While I have multiple avenues to hit Welder recursion (Grunt, Needle, etc) and slow down Will, Counterbalance-Top is amazing in many cases. However, one of the biggest weapons you have is the plentiful ability to Stifle fetches to keep the basic lands at a minimum while Wastelanding the non-basics they are forced to play. I like Old Man against them, but there are many other options. Extirpate would be cute here too.


Workshops (kind of vague, because there are so many flavors)

Fortunately, I get around Thorn quite decently. There's so many different branches, that the strategies change with each build. You can do many neat things like Stifle an Upkeep effect to keep things non-symmetrical, ramp up permanents with Trinket Mage, get around Magus with Trinket Mage, shut off their Welders with Grunts, etc. Post board things get a ton better with:

+3 Flux
+1 H Recall

I had two Kataki, but Flux is much better here and I just didn't need that much to beat them. Also, I've seen decks like MUD easily circumvent a Kataki with Metalworker and Academy, but it's much more harmful with Flux. Worse case, you just add a few Kataki back in the board to overload the matchup.

That's the general plan, but admittedly I've been putting more effort in other places. I personally never feel playing more men in Vintage is the best way to go, but this is what I'd do (with testing to make sure I'm not a crackpot) if I were so inclined.

Good luck with the list, hopefully some of my post was helpful.
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Prodigal_Sorceress
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« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2008, 12:04:15 am »

Both my testing and your comments have proved that Ninja really isn't worth the slot in this list. I really want to cut the Ninjas, but I don't want to go back to the Cats n Dogs plan, because even though vanilla 2/1s and 2/2s for  {W} is pretty good, I want my creatures to actually do something. I completely forgot STPs when making this list, a huge mistake. First change: -3 Cabal Therapy, -1 Ninja; +2 Duress, +2 STP. I really like the Katakis main, although I may drop down to 2. Old Man is good, but I either see a lot of Juggernaut and Karn, or no creatures at all. The only thing that I could see it good stealing is a Metalworker or Welder. I'll try 1 and see if I like it, but otherwise I may end up cutting them entirely. -1 Ninja, +1 Old Man. I still have to pitch one more Ninja, so I am going to go with -1 Ninja, -1 Kataki, +2 Jotun Grunt, because he's just really damn good. I will get back with my testing results later, maybe I can get a few members of ICBM to play against me. Who knows?

Anyone who wants to test with me, PM me so we can set something up. I use MWS.

Current List:

//Land
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory

//Creatures
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage
1 Old Man of the Sea
4 Jotun Grunt

//Other
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Pithing Needle
3 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
_____________

Sideboard

3x Extirpate
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Meddling Mage
2x Energy Flux
1x Null Rod
1x Duress
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Echoing Truth

[edit] ok, I just noticed that I have 4 slots open in this deck, my math is a little funky (haha), my modifications: +2 Jotun Grunt, +1 Dark Confidant, +1 Duress. SB -1 Duress, SB +1 Extirpate.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 12:11:29 am by Prodigal_Sorceress » Logged
Juggernaut GO
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2008, 02:58:36 am »

by running null rod you are killing the effectiveness of you trinket mages by almost 100%, the only card it fetches for you is a single pithing needle.

My normal trinket package is the following:
1 chalice of the void
1 sensei divining top
1 aether spellbomb
1 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle

standstill is a really bad card, your getting draw from confidant already, and the trinket mages give you card advantage as well.

I would go with the following:
-3 null rod
-3 standstill

+ all the following
1 chalice of the void
1 sensei divining top
1 aether spellbomb
1 tormod's crypt
2 trinket mage

You can also get away with losing the old man of the sea and something else and runninng at least 2 stifle

You're also going to want to run 3 on color mox/lotus/mana crypt here as well.  Running 24 land, you can easily cut 5 of them to add in the artifact mana.  by playing daze, you can automaticly lose the basic swamp and plains, at least 1 fetchland possibly 2 as well as 1 of the mishra's factory.

As it stands now your deck is fighting itself to be landstill 50% of the time and uwb fish the other half of the time.  Focusing the deck to perform 100% in either direction would end with a better result then you're getting currently.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 03:03:02 am by JuggernautGO » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2008, 01:35:49 pm »

Standstill is not bad; it just doesn't belong in  {W} {U} {B} fish. It sees play in  {W} {U} because the deck starts the game with a turn 1 beater and is able to play Mishra's Factories. But, in a deck like this, it's just probably not going to be very good since this deck not only plays a slower game, but also plays Dark Confidant.

Also, the singleton Old Man of the Sea seems really random. You don't have any way to tutor it up. You might get lucky and draw into it, but even then, would it really be that good? Why not just play another Swords to Plowshares? It gets rid of many, many more targets. The price of not stealing the creature for yourself seems like an acceptable cost.

Something I really have to take issue with the cutting of Null Rod. I honestly think that the Rod is one of the things that makes Fish viable right now. It's a beating against Control Slaver, Painter, and Long. It's got game against Stax. It is relevant in just about every single match-up except the mirror and Ichorid.

Where is Meddling Mage? Did you decide he's not good enough? If so, why?
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Prodigal_Sorceress
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« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2008, 03:43:01 pm »

@Juggernaut - I can see cutting the Standstills, but not the Null Rod. Null Rod wins games, which is also why I am not including artifact mana. Although I do have to admit that a Black Lotus would not be out of place, I was not running Jewelry or Mana Crypt-type accelerators because they end up being dead draws lategame. This is also why I am not running Tormod's Crypt, Top, or Spellbomb, simply because they all require activation, which conflicts with Null Rod. I am considering upping the Needle count to 2-3 though, and adding a Chalice or two.

@Duressed - I agree with you on the Old Man point, he was mostly in there so I could try him out. I have not drawn him as yet, and I can see him being a dead draw against many decks lategame. Meddling Mage is currently in the board, and I put him there because I was not sure what to take out. I may end up cutting at least 2 Jotun Grunt for him, because I really like him in most matchups.

Changes:
-1 Old Man
-2 Jotun Grunt
-1 Swamp
-3 Standstill

+1 Black Lotus
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Chalice of the Void
+3 Meddling Mage
_____________

-3 SB Meddling Mage

+1 SB Energy Flux
+2 SB Icatian Javelineers (Bob, Welder, Lavamancer, Cats, ect.

Some game results with this list:

{U} {W} Fish: 2/0
I just walked all over this guy, countering his threats and STPing his guys. I eventually dropped a Jotun Grunt with both of our GYs being over 10 cards, and he conceded. I sided heavily for the second game, starting with a Lotus, Bob, Sea, Duress, Daze his Force, Extirpate on Force. He conceded 4 turns later.

 {G} {B} Mana'd Ichorid: 2/1
I lost to him first game, SBd heavily second game. He conceded to a first turn Pithing Needle on Bazaar, and we went into third game. I Extirpated his Grave Troll early, and landed a Pithing Needle on Bazaar. I made a play mistake that left him with 2 Zombie tokens. After a few turns that made it feel like I WAS playing Standstill, I eventually got the upper hand and he conceded.

I am pretty impressed with this list. I love it. It wins, its fast at establishing itself, and it can deal with most threats. It also walks right over  {U} {W} Fish through pure CA with Bob, and can handle almost anything they drop.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2008, 04:36:26 pm by Prodigal_Sorceress » Logged
pierce
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 02:12:03 am »

try this sometime:

4x dark confidant
4x meddling mage
3x trinket mage
1x phrexian dreadnaught

1x pithing needle
1x tormod's crypt
1x diving top
1x black lotus
1x mox sapphire
1x mox pearl
1x mox jet

1x ponder
1x brainstorm
1x ancestral
1x time walk
1x vampiric tutor
1x demonic tutor

4x Force of Will
4x stifle
4x duress
3x swords to plowshares

1x strip mine
4x wasteland
2x tundra
2x underground
2x scrubland
1x island
1x swamp
1x plains
3x delta
3x strand

SB:
3x jotun grunt
3x null rod
3x yixlid jailer
3x thoughtseize
3x kataki
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Prodigal_Sorceress
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 01:04:57 am »

Do you have any playtesting data? any explanations of why your list is better than mine? Any comparisons at all? I really don't want to just "try this sometime" because you say so. Please support your list. I appreciate your contributions, but unless you can explain why stuff is in there, I really don't see a reason to change my list.

Tutors don't seem to be very solid, as the life loss generally hurts. The only thing that I could see including that causes life loss is Thoughseize, and that is because that is proactive disruption, rather than 1 mana and 2 life for a card that I would probably draw into in a few turns anyways. Also, Stifle is overrated. Against Long variants, I would much rather play Trinisphere or Sphere of Resistance. Even just countering key cards in their spell chain works really well, and you don't even need to hate specific cards. Dreadnaught is overkill. Period. If I need something like that, I'll run Tinker/DSC. A 2-of Dreadnaught does nothing in your library, where as a 2-of DSC is active protection against Painterstone. Also, the idea is to hate artifacts and artifact mana, not to run it. Crypt, Top, and the Moxen are only counter-intuitive, and eating up your card slots.
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pierce
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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 08:58:24 pm »

i playtested this list just after the bannings. i beat the absolute shit out of slaver and dredge a whole bunch. Then I got stuck in the savage and empty wastelands of southern colorado for the past month or so, missing both vintage worlds and the first Boulder Cash Tournament that I posted in the Tournament Announcement Forum. I did tell a fifteen year old kid to play this at that said event, and he lost to long in the playoff for first.

tutors get ancestral, time walk, null rod after board, or a timely FOW. These cards are insane.

12/12 trampling beasts are not overkill. They provide your best chance vs long g1. Trinket mages can tutor for him too.

Stifle is not for the long matchup. I have never, in any tournament, yet been able to stifle a tendrils. It just never happens. It does provide land destruction at U, and combined with wasteland, can just win games.

Life totals don't matter. The first 19 dont anyway. Who plays burn in t1? No one. 2 life to tutor up a time walk to swing lethal, or just to generate CA with bob seems fine. Same goes for getting ancestral.

also, sphere seems stricly worse than thorn.


again, take it for a spin. see if you like it. I think with vintage worlds results, I need to rethink fish.
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