Would any restriction other than Force and Ritual really change things?

[moxpearl]

Steve M. just wrote an interesting blog on the fact that these latest restrictions really did nothing, but turn back the clock, and I have to agree.  I've been thinking about this lately and I wanted to raise a more extreme question.

If the DCI proclaimed "All blue and black cards except Dark Ritual and Force of Will are restricted", would that even changes things? 

My knee-jerk reaction is no.  TPS, Slaver, Ichorid, Oath, and Shop would still be the decks to play with TPS on top.  The latest top 8 decks have so few non-land 4-of's, and cards such as Cabal Ritual, Grim Tutor, Tendrils, TFK, and Strategic Planning could find replacements.  For TPS, you could throw in academy, lion's eye, imperial seal, desire, windfall, thoughtseize, daze, and extirpate to replace others.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy this format and the balance between combo, shop, and control, but my main point is that unless DCI hit a pillar of the format, the metagame is still going to feel the same.

[The Atog Lord]

Mana Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop -- restricting any of these cards would make a huge change in Vintage.

[Juggernaut GO]

As long as yawgmoths will remains in the format, the restricted list will not be perfect until every card in vintage is restricted.  On a long enough timeline, we will all be playing highlander.

Obviously that is an abstract way to look at things, but really, if yawg will never existed do you think a card as basic as brainstorm would still need to be restricted?

But to address the point of tps and slaver being the "best decks" in the format, In all my testing (and I've been doing a ton of 2 sided MWS)  both of these decks get crushed by ichorid.  The matchups aren't even close.  I'm using card for card decklists from the top 8 of worlds and it really seems like nighbor had to have insanely bad luck not to take this tournament down seeing as how stacked that top 8 was in his favor.

The fact that strategic slaver just rolls over entirely to an opening leyline of the void doesn't help it either.

[Smmenen]

Did you SEE My sb for Ichorid?  I ran EIGHT anti-Ichorid cards.   

1 Leyline
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Jailer

Paul didn't get my memo because he arrived like 3 hours before the main event was to start.   And Paul narrowly beat me for top 8, in which case I would have probably had the same pairings he had with the same deck.

Test my list against Ichorid.

Mana Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop -- restricting any of these cards would make a huge change in Vintage.

All due respect, I don't think that restricting Bazaar would change the format, really at all.   Only about 10% of hte metagame, if that, would change.  The big effect would be freeing sb space, which would revert to what they looked like in 2006.   

[wiley]

Did you SEE My sb for Ichorid?  I ran EIGHT anti-Ichorid cards.   

No offense Stephen but you didn't make top 8, which is what he was talking about.

I'm using card for card decklists from the top 8 of worlds and it really seems like nighbor had to have insanely bad luck not to take this tournament down seeing as how stacked that top 8 was in his favor.

Slaver is definitely an underdog to ichorid thanks to its disruption and speed, however the tps match up is so draw dependent it isn't even funny.  TPS can race a lot of the time if you don't have turn 0-1 disruption.  This is exasperated if the TPS play boards in jailers/crypts/extirpates post board as these cards can slow you a turn while also shutting off some of your disruption, thereby speeding them up a turn.  To say that TPS just rolls to Ichorid is an exaggeration, indeed with a couple hundred post board games against lists like Shay's and TK's I would say the entire match can go extremely close to 50/50.

I will get to testing these post board games vs. Stephen's list but I don't see the increase in number of side board cards shifting that to any more than 45/55 in TPS' favor.  I don't suppose Stephen would be so king as to pm me with what to take out from his list if I promise not to share?

Ichorid is one of the better decks in the format currently and had an excellent shot at winning worlds, however there isn't, imo, a clearly defined best deck.  Rather there is a balance of TPS, Slaver, Ichorid, 'other designed to beat 2 of those 3'.  Currently I am unaware of any deck in the format that has a positive match up versus all 3.

[Smmenen]

Did you SEE My sb for Ichorid?  I ran EIGHT anti-Ichorid cards.   

No offense Stephen but you didn't make top 8, which is what he was talking about.

No, that's not what he was talking about. He was saying that the TPS and Slaver are not the best decks because they gets crushed by Ichorid. 

I was saying that it doesn't, and that he needs to look at my list. 

Paul and I usually play the same decklist, but Paul's ride was late to the tournament, and I only upped the anti-ichorid hate the night before.  Paul never faced Ichorid in the tournament.  I played it three times in two days.   I learned my lesson after the prelim tournament.

I've posted my list in my article preview for this week.   Also, knowing how to play TPS in the Ichorid matchup is very tricky.   Hands that look bad are actually amazing and hands that look amazing are actualy bad.   No offense, but unless you are a TPS expert, I would not trust your testing.   In any case, if my anti-ichorid sb is not enough, I would go up to 10 anti-ichorid cards.   I would spare few expenses to ensure that TPS does not lose to Ichorid. 

[forests failed you]

Did you SEE My sb for Ichorid?  I ran EIGHT anti-Ichorid cards.   

No offense Stephen but you didn't make top 8, which is what he was talking about.

I'm using card for card decklists from the top 8 of worlds and it really seems like nighbor had to have insanely bad luck not to take this tournament down seeing as how stacked that top 8 was in his favor.

Slaver is definitely an underdog to ichorid thanks to its disruption and speed, however the tps match up is so draw dependent it isn't even funny.  TPS can race a lot of the time if you don't have turn 0-1 disruption.  This is exasperated if the TPS play boards in jailers/crypts/extirpates post board as these cards can slow you a turn while also shutting off some of your disruption, thereby speeding them up a turn.  To say that TPS just rolls to Ichorid is an exaggeration, indeed with a couple hundred post board games against lists like Shay's and TK's I would say the entire match can go extremely close to 50/50.

I will get to testing these post board games vs. Stephen's list but I don't see the increase in number of side board cards shifting that to any more than 45/55 in TPS' favor.  I don't suppose Stephen would be so king as to pm me with what to take out from his list if I promise not to share?

Ichorid is one of the better decks in the format currently and had an excellent shot at winning worlds, however there isn't, imo, a clearly defined best deck.  Rather there is a balance of TPS, Slaver, Ichorid, 'other designed to beat 2 of those 3'.  Currently I am unaware of any deck in the format that has a positive match up versus all 3.

Are you joking?  I had a ton of cards to board in against Ichorid.  3x Wasteland 3xTormod's Crypt 1x Thran Foundry 3x Sphere of Resistence 1x Trinisphere.  How do they ever win?

[wiley]

Because you can obviously get at least 2-3 of those out in a timely manner (ie first 2 turns) on an extremely consistent basis right?  The fact that you have 11 sideboard cards that have some kind of effect on Ichorid does not guarantee that you win.  You still have to see/play them while they can still make a difference.

There is a decidedly short window of time where the majority of those cards are relevant, a sphere effect on turn 3 for instance won't do much of anything, a sphere on turn 2 might hold off a dread return.  A waste on turn 3 is laughable much of the time, turn 2 they might have a petrified field or second bazaar in play, what then?  Crypt and foundry are the best cards against Ichorid in that list, with Slaver's slow clock Ichorid still has the chance to come back after 1 activation.

All of this is added to the fact that Ichorid will often win game 1 as your only truly threatening plays are with crypt, trike and slaver.  I don't yet have enough testing against your particular build with strategic planning but I have found that attacking welder and thirsts will often be more than enough to race Slaver with room to spare in game 1.

By no means is the match, or any particular game, guaranteed to Ichorid but thinking that you are so steeply favored post board is flawed.

[Ufactor]

Getting to a similar but unrelated topic - Are there any cards that can be UNRESTRICTED to yield a positive, significant change in the format?

[forests failed you]

Because you can obviously get at least 2-3 of those out in a timely manner (ie first 2 turns) on an extremely consistent basis right?  The fact that you have 11 sideboard cards that have some kind of effect on Ichorid does not guarantee that you win.  You still have to see/play them while they can still make a difference.

There is a decidedly short window of time where the majority of those cards are relevant, a sphere effect on turn 3 for instance won't do much of anything, a sphere on turn 2 might hold off a dread return.  A waste on turn 3 is laughable much of the time, turn 2 they might have a petrified field or second bazaar in play, what then?  Crypt and foundry are the best cards against Ichorid in that list, with Slaver's slow clock Ichorid still has the chance to come back after 1 activation.

All of this is added to the fact that Ichorid will often win game 1 as your only truly threatening plays are with crypt, trike and slaver.  I don't yet have enough testing against your particular build with strategic planning but I have found that attacking welder and thirsts will often be more than enough to race Slaver with room to spare in game 1.

By no means is the match, or any particular game, guaranteed to Ichorid but thinking that you are so steeply favored post board is flawed.

I understand that there is a limited window of time where specific cards are good.  That is why I have 11 cards plus more cards that allow me to dig.  I am also allowed to mulligan if I don't have a way of finding a card on the first turn.  I also have Goblin Welder to recur my hate.  The Strategic Slaver list that Jimmy and I played had the best match up against Dredge of any deck in the entire tournament.  It isn't close.  If you don't believe me play the match up.  I can't be any more clear than that--Control Slaver with the sideboard I designed destroys Ichorid, it isn't close.  Play the match up for yourself.  If you can't make a deck with all of those hate cards beat Ichorid, then you probably couldn't make anything beat Ichorid.

[Twaun007]

Because you can obviously get at least 2-3 of those out in a timely manner (ie first 2 turns) on an extremely consistent basis right?  The fact that you have 11 sideboard cards that have some kind of effect on Ichorid does not guarantee that you win.  You still have to see/play them while they can still make a difference.

There is a decidedly short window of time where the majority of those cards are relevant, a sphere effect on turn 3 for instance won't do much of anything, a sphere on turn 2 might hold off a dread return.  A waste on turn 3 is laughable much of the time, turn 2 they might have a petrified field or second bazaar in play, what then?  Crypt and foundry are the best cards against Ichorid in that list, with Slaver's slow clock Ichorid still has the chance to come back after 1 activation.

All of this is added to the fact that Ichorid will often win game 1 as your only truly threatening plays are with crypt, trike and slaver.  I don't yet have enough testing against your particular build with strategic planning but I have found that attacking welder and thirsts will often be more than enough to race Slaver with room to spare in game 1.

By no means is the match, or any particular game, guaranteed to Ichorid but thinking that you are so steeply favored post board is flawed.

I understand that there is a limited window of time where specific cards are good.  That is why I have 11 cards plus more cards that allow me to dig.  I am also allowed to mulligan if I don't have a way of finding a card on the first turn.  I also have Goblin Welder to recur my hate.  The Strategic Slaver list that Jimmy and I played had the best match up against Dredge of any deck in the entire tournament.  It isn't close.  If you don't believe me play the match up.  I can't be any more clear than that--Control Slaver with the sideboard I designed destroys Ichorid, it isn't close.  Play the match up for yourself.  If you can't make a deck with all of those hate cards beat Ichorid, then you probably couldn't make anything beat Ichorid.

The Thursday night before worlds Demars and I tested the Dredge vs. Slaver match up. Now, this was even before Strategic Plans was added to the deck and it was a dumptrucking post board. I believe that I only won a single game in a series of 8 post board games. Turn two Ichorid doesn't do shit and provides CS the chance to go nuts with wasteland, SoR, or, other insanity.  It is awful. Ichorid could not keep up.

Mana Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop -- restricting any of these cards would make a huge change in Vintage.

Vintage would be awful if this happened. The format is already to close to highlander as it is. Seriously! How many 4x cards does CS and Long Run?
CS
-4 Thirst for knowledge
-4 Force of Will
-4 Strategic Planning

Long
-4 Force of Will
-4 duress
-4 Dark Ritual

[forests failed you]

By the way.  I am in favor of Restricting Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad.  Those cards are all nuts, and if they were gone we would have much more room to play with when designing new decks.  The problem with these cards is that they are so much more powerful than all of the other unrestricted cards in the format that not building around at least one of them automatically makes one's deck flawed.  For instance, why isn't goblins good?  Because it doesn't play one of those four cards.  Also that it doesn't play Yawgmoth's Will.  If the Vintage crux--meaning, I start my deck with 4x busted unrestricted card, didn't exist we would see more decks that would be able to compete.

[Ufactor]

For instance, why isn't goblins good?  Because it doesn't play one of those four cards.  Also that it doesn't play Yawgmoth's Will.  If the Vintage crux--meaning, I start my deck with 4x busted unrestricted card, didn't exist we would see more decks that would be able to compete.

...erm, because this isn't Legacy,  which is exactly what you're trying to accomplish with mass restrictions :O

[Twaun007]

For instance, why isn't goblins good?  Because it doesn't play one of those four cards.  Also that it doesn't play Yawgmoth's Will.  If the Vintage crux--meaning, I start my deck with 4x busted unrestricted card, didn't exist we would see more decks that would be able to compete.

...erm, because this isn't Legacy,  which is exactly what you're trying to accomplish with mass restrictions :O

No. He just want a more skill intensive format.

I do not agree with Brian's proposed restrictions since this is type 1 and you're supposed to use the most busted spells ever. I do believe that the over powered cards in vintage cut back on the ability for one to construct new strategies. Over powered cards tend to push play skill towards the back of the format as well. This is true. We all have been there where someone with poor skills steam rolls you by holding more over powered cards than you. The issue at hand is a double edged sword. One edge being that this is Vintage and you should have the opportunity to play with the most broken cards ever printed. The other edge being skill is not always a factor in the format. If I knew the point of equilibrium between the two edges I would be working for the DCI/Wizards. As for now, I am going to play favorites towards having the most broken cards in the format. This is Vintage and I still love it when people are like" Wow is that a real Black Lotus?"

[Phoenix888]

In response to the OP's question.  I can't agree that Ichorid would still be good with all blue and black cards restricted.  Losing 3 Ichorids, Narcos, Bridges, Therapies, Imps, Thugs, and Unmasks seems like it would hurt things a wee bit.  As for the others, well, that's almost what they're doing already so I'd agree that those wouldn't get hurt too much.

[moxpearl]

Mana Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop -- restricting any of these cards would make a huge change in Vintage.

Vintage would be awful if this happened. The format is already to close to highlander as it is. Seriously! How many 4x cards does CS and Long Run?
CS
-4 Thirst for knowledge
-4 Force of Will
-4 Strategic Planning

Long
-4 Force of Will
-4 duress
-4 Dark Ritual

I also don't think restricting Bazaar wouldn't do much to the metagame or top played decks.  Ichorid would be killed as would some other decks played less these days such as Ubastax, CA, and Dragon, but that doesn't represent that many players in a tournment.    I'm not even convinced restricting Mana Drain would cripple Slaver significantly, but I can't opine that strongly on that deck since I never play it.

And, while Ichorid and Stax will remain as decks with many 4-of's and will always compete, the "deck to beat" is asymtotically approaching a Highlander deck as time goes on. 

I can't say the format would be awful.  If Vintage became Highlander, we'd still have fun playing it and there would be a metagame.  Every move the DCI makes, some of us think the format will be awful, but we just adjust our decks, enjoy our tournaments, and write about the metagame and strategy.  Our format has been very resilient to DCI's changes.  I think the only thing that would truly frustate the player base permanently is if a card like Black Lotus, Ancestral, or Yawgmoth's was banned...something that didn't let us play with every card.

In response to the OP's question.  I can't agree that Ichorid would still be good with all blue and black cards restricted.  Losing 3 Ichorids, Narcos, Bridges, Therapies, Imps, Thugs, and Unmasks seems like it would hurt things a wee bit.  As for the others, well, that's almost what they're doing already so I'd agree that those wouldn't get hurt too much.

Yes, it's easy to forget that Ichorid actually uses lots of black cards when the deck is bending every rule of Magic.  Someone should try to build a Highlander Ichorid deck...add back in Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul....ok....too many cards to replace.   So Ichorid would be killed, but my post was more focused on the more mainstream decks played.

[Xyre]

Getting to a similar but unrelated topic - Are there any cards that can be UNRESTRICTED to yield a positive, significant change in the format?

If by "constructive" you mean "cards that don't deserve to be on the restricted list ending up that way", then easily. Steve has written much on end to this effect. If by "constructive" you mean "creates a new archetype that modifies the metagame", that depends.

What's happened in the metagame is that there are so many good tutors available in 1-of or 4-of (Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, Imp Seal, Intuition, Gifts, Grim, etc. etc.) that restriction policies are fruitless. Ultimately, players will play so much broken card manipulation and tutor that any restriction will yield the same result. Actually, that's a good rule of thumb: As the number of restrictions increases, the value of those restrictions in terms of modifying the format decreases to zero on an infinite scale.

Indeed, one might note that the spectrum of combo decks, from the most aggressive to the most controlling, don't vary their maindecks in a significant degree, and a large part of that variation is accomodation of the aformentioned control elements. The only variant factor (minus the occasional discovery like Strategic Planning) is counter-strategies, like Ichorid, Stax, Fish, and so forth.

If you want to change the format, ban Yawgmoth's Will. That will allow for many more unrestrictions than currently available in my opinion, and will force a diversification in the strategies of combo decks.

[KnowmaD]

Mana Drain, Bazaar, and Workshop -- restricting any of these cards would make a huge change in Vintage.

Please elaborate.  I would like to hear more about this theory.  To me it seems like these are the cards that keep blue from overrunning. Unless I am seeing this backwards an these are the ones that make it so blue has to be powerful.  That just sounds silly to say in my head.

I want to stay positive.  I think wizards has been in a bind since conception.  I'm sure they have lots of good ideas like we have on how to "balance", but if they implement them to fast, that would be bad for business.  Though if they take to long I mite have an aneurysm.  Good thing I'm fairly patient.

One more thing.  I personally would rather play highlander any day over the bastard child called legacy.  No offense.  I'm entitled to my opinion.

                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                          Knowmad 

[diopter]

If you want to change the format, ban Yawgmoth's Will. That will allow for many more unrestrictions than currently available in my opinion, and will force a diversification in the strategies of combo decks.

We don't want to change the format like that.

Too many Vintage players love playing Will that you are going to meet heavy opposition at every turn if you continue to suggest the banning of Will. It's not like Brainstorm, where we got over it by using Ponder, Scroll, Planning etc. Will has no replacement. Will is the definitive "fun broken play" of Vintage. Take that away, and you take away the very heart of Vintage

Not to mention that a Will-less format wouldn't bring about the change that you desire. It would just mean that Slaver would be the top deck, as the next best broken play is Tinker (which is not nearly as fun as playing Will), which Slaver best abuses.

So in summary, let's not talk about banning Will.

[The Atog Lord]

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual. All non-budget decks play more than one copy of at least one of these cards. In fact, nearly every non-budget deck uses at least one of these cards as a backbone. Therefore, to restrict any of these cards would be to kill an entire set of archetypes. Gush was a similar card, in the sense that it served as the backbone for a number of viable decks. When it got hit, the metagame changed. If any of the four get hit, the metagame would also change.

[Dante]

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual. All non-budget decks play more than one copy of at least one of these cards. In fact, nearly every non-budget deck uses at least one of these cards as a backbone. Therefore, to restrict any of these cards would be to kill an entire set of archetypes. Gush was a similar card, in the sense that it served as the backbone for a number of viable decks. When it got hit, the metagame changed. If any of the four get hit, the metagame would also change.

In a similar question, let's some some or all 4 of those cards are restricted and/or Yag Will banned. 

Would you even consider what's left Vintage (or Type 1 if you've been around)?  Or would you consider it some sort of Legacy with moxes and power (because basically that's what it would be).

My first instinct has always been I'd be ok if they just banned Will and let us play with "unfair but fair" decks, if that makes any sense (unfair = all the acceleration and power, fair = no stupid "I win" card), but I'd want to ensure that one Drain/control archetype didn't dominate (I was there for the Keeper is King what should go in our 60th Keeper slot days and I know part of Keeper's dominance was lack of metagame innovation, but it still was bleh).

[zeus-online]

Gush totally screwed the balance though....Shops -> Rituals -> Drains...with gush it was gush -> Everything else.

I like the new metagame, but i hate the decklists, look at the slaver lists from the world champs, almost highlander. It has been that way with long since it was invented, but that is to expect from a deck that plays almost every card purely for power reasons. Atleast with brainstorm there was more four-offs and two-offs.

On the will subject...i wouldn't mind if it was banned, now that would probably shake things up. I wonder if black would even be playable in control decks without it.

/Zeus

[moxpearl]

So in summary, let's not talk about banning Will.

I agree.  That's left for another thread (or not.)

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual. All non-budget decks play more than one copy of at least one of these cards. In fact, nearly every non-budget deck uses at least one of these cards as a backbone. Therefore, to restrict any of these cards would be to kill an entire set of archetypes. Gush was a similar card, in the sense that it served as the backbone for a number of viable decks. When it got hit, the metagame changed. If any of the four get hit, the metagame would also change.

In a similar question, let's some some or all 4 of those cards are restricted and/or Yag Will banned. 

Would you even consider what's left Vintage (or Type 1 if you've been around)?  Or would you consider it some sort of Legacy with moxes and power (because basically that's what it would be).

My first instinct has always been I'd be ok if they just banned Will and let us play with "unfair but fair" decks, if that makes any sense (unfair = all the acceleration and power, fair = no stupid "I win" card), but I'd want to ensure that one Drain/control archetype didn't dominate (I was there for the Keeper is King what should go in our 60th Keeper slot days and I know part of Keeper's dominance was lack of metagame innovation, but it still was bleh).

I would not consider it Vintage.   We love our format because of the brokenness, and it's broken because of the mana cheats in Workshop, Ritual, and Bazaar (and to a lesser extent Drain.)  And Force will always be in the format to keep those cards in check.   If you want to play a more fair game of eternal magic, play Legacy. 

And as long as we hold those four cards unrestricted, DCI will have to keep restricting more and more cards.  Blue and black cards because they make the TPS/Slaver deck too consistent.  Artifacts such as Trinisphere because they are "unfun."  Maybe that's just premise we have to accept for having this broken format.

As the number of restrictions increases, the value of those restrictions in terms of modifying the format decreases to zero on an infinite scale.

The corollary is that as the restricted list increases, the number of tutor/filter cards at the next restriction need to increase to get the same marginal effect.   Since the last restriction was pretty dramatic yet arguably only rewound the clock, you could argue that there's nothing DCI can do now that will change our format other than print/unrestrict a bomb or hit those sacred 4 cards.

[Xyre]

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual. All non-budget decks play more than one copy of at least one of these cards. In fact, nearly every non-budget deck uses at least one of these cards as a backbone. Therefore, to restrict any of these cards would be to kill an entire set of archetypes. Gush was a similar card, in the sense that it served as the backbone for a number of viable decks. When it got hit, the metagame changed. If any of the four get hit, the metagame would also change.

Very true. On each:

- Mishra's Workshop. Restricting this doesn't necessarily kill Shop decks, but it cripples them. They can try to get by with City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb, but while those can provide a turn 1 SoF/Thorn, they're less reliable and less outright useful. Shop decks have always served as one of the balancing forces in metagames. Much like Ichorid and its own hate, as combo gets better, Shops get better, and as Shops get better, more hate (meaning control decks) are played, causing it to go down in an eternal cycle. Cutting out the Shop component makes combo better but it throws the metagame out of whack. I say DON'T RESTRICT.

- Bazaar of Baghdad. I think this card has outlived its usefulness. Before, it was the engine of a slow combo deck with poor strategies and weak controlling elements (Dragon); now, it's a fast combo deck with controlling elements. Ichorid doesn't do anything for the metagame's "combo->prison->control" balance beyond just screwing around with sideboards. A loss of Ichorid would slow the format down, leading to more combo, leading to more Stax, and I think that's a format conducive to innovation and more balance. I say RESTRICT.

- Mana Drain. I don't think this card is vital to control proper as much as it's vital to the normal "Drain decks". I think that control decks could adapt their way out of a loss of 3 Drains. It would hinder some of their strategies, but wouldn't be crippling, and I think would be healthy for the format. I say MAYBE RESTRICT.

- Dark Ritual. The difference between Dark Ritual and Mana Drain is that the former is a vital component of its respective strategy. There aren't many cards that can cheat for 2 extra mana (Cabal Ritual doesn't count because it's erratic and would probably be worse in a Ritual-free format). Taking out Ritual would force significant changes into combo decks, and I don't know if they have the ability to adapt out. I say DON'T RESTRICT.

And unrestrict some combination of Fact or Fiction, Dream Halls, Time Spiral, Personal Tutor, and Mox Diamond. That would provide the design space needed to adopt to restrictions.

[Ufactor]

Workshop, Bazaar, Drain, and Ritual. All non-budget decks play more than one copy of at least one of these cards. In fact, nearly every non-budget deck uses at least one of these cards as a backbone. Therefore, to restrict any of these cards would be to kill an entire set of archetypes. Gush was a similar card, in the sense that it served as the backbone for a number of viable decks. When it got hit, the metagame changed. If any of the four get hit, the metagame would also change.

Balance was restricted in, what, 1995?  Help me out people, because I didn't start playing until after Chronicles.  Anyway, even if it was restricted that long after the original list was made, then fine.  Worldgorger Dragon was not printed until 1999.  The difference between the two events was five years.

Do you know what happened to Bazaar of Baghdad in those five years?  You could buy it or sell it at a high premium because of Arabian's minuscule print run, which made it a great collectible.  If you tried playing it in a deck, however, you would get laughed off the gaming table.  Bazaar was awesome in the deck which got it banned - Adam Maysonet's Rack Deck.  Bazaar was awesome in D4r60n, and then in every graveyard deck thereafter (Infestation, Cerebral Assassin, Uba Stax, Dredge, etc.).  Bazaar, for more than a third of the games existence, was actually a shit card.

Why am I introducing these facts?  Shay lists four cards a staples of Vintage.  These cards make up the guidelines for any good deck.  Workshop, Dark Ritual and Mana Drain have always been good.  These cards defined Vintage for most of the time that they existed.  Bazaar, on the other hand,  was not *always* on this list.  Bazaar was put on this list because of Worldgorger Dragon, and then over time critical mass made graveyard usage an immutable thread in the game's fabric.  In a sense, by printing WGD, WotC "created" another Vintage staple.  If another card were suddenly promoted in this way, there would, theoretically, be another dynamic to the meta game.

Is it possible then, that there is a card out there that is "almost good" enough to play in Vintage, but needs some support cards to help it along?

[Implacable]

I think that restricting 'Shop, Ritual, Bazaar or Drain would be unacceptable on a personal level to most Vintage players.  But it's also unnecessary.  This metagame (Rituals crushing Drains, with scattered Shop lists to crush Rituals and fall prey to those Welder/bounce-based Drain decks) is perfect, because there is a clear upper-tier and a myriad of ways to attack that same upper tier.  Fish lists can be tuned to beat any two of the top 3 lists.  Decks like Dragon or Doomsday can dodge some of the hate traditionally used against Ritual-based combo and crush Shops and Drains.  Oath, as always, can emerge as a spoiler.  And a host of random decks - Bomberman, Goblins, Belcher - can rise to the top, as we witnessed the last time that this meta rolled around.

As a final point: please look at the Vintage Worlds Top 8.  Varied decklists, to be sure (TPS, Oath, Slaver, Ichorid, Painter, Drain Tendrils), but more importantly, look at the players.  One of the 'best' parts about the Gush Age (if there was a 'best' part) was that the good players seemed to consistently rise to the top.  That's a frequent defense, also, of the current Type 2 format, where Faeries dominates: the best players seem to do very well more than is usual.  So let's innovate, and explore the design space here.  If necessary, I think some unrestrictions could help out the format (Hello, Fact or Fiction!), but I like what we've got goin'.

[Sean Ryan]

Wow this thread degenerated.  We just had the biggest set of restrictions in recent memory and the crowd calls for more?  What is this the French revolution?  Off with there heads! 

The banning of Will is its own issue that is based purely on values.  Good luck with that debate.

Nothing needs to be restricted.  Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.   

I will go out on a limb and say this is one of the most balanced metagames we've had in a long time.  Now enjoy it and innovate.

[Dante]

Wow this thread degenerated.  We just had the biggest set of restrictions in recent memory and the crowd calls for more?  What is this the French revolution?  Off with there heads! 

The banning of Will is its own issue that is based purely on values.  Good luck with that debate.

Nothing needs to be restricted.  Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.   

I will go out on a limb and say this is one of the most balanced metagames we've had in a long time.  Now enjoy it and innovate.

You're totally misinterpreting - no one is saying we should do any of that.  The original poster asked if some restrictions happened, would the metagame change much.  I asked if certain restrictions happened and/or Will banned, would you even consider that Vintage anymore.  No one calling for anything...

[Twaun007]

Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.

The meta game hopped into a time machine and went back to 2006. Can people not see this? There is no need to "let the meta game play out." We know exactly where it is going. 

[diopter]

Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.

The meta game hopped into a time machine and went back to 2006. Can people not see this? There is no need to "let the meta game play out." We know exactly where it is going. 

This is what a lot of people (myself not included) wanted anyway. There were lots of calls for Scroll, Gush, and Flash to be restricted. And now... those people have what they want! And now people are still complaining.

It's probably one of Vintage's most annoying problems - you just can't please everybody, and sometimes it seems like you can't damn well please anybody.