Would any restriction other than Force and Ritual really change things?

[Webster]

Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.

The meta game hopped into a time machine and went back to 2006. Can people not see this? There is no need to "let the meta game play out." We know exactly where it is going. 

This is what a lot of people (myself not included) wanted anyway. There were lots of calls for Scroll, Gush, and Flash to be restricted. And now... those people have what they want! And now people are still complaining.

It's probably one of Vintage's life's most annoying problems - you just can't please everybody, and sometimes it seems like you can't damn well please anybody.

Fixed. Move along.

Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad.  Those cards are all nuts, and if they were gone we would have much more room to play with when designing new decks.  The problem with these cards is that they are so much more powerful than all of the other unrestricted cards in the format that not building around at least one of them automatically makes one's deck flawed.  For instance, why isn't goblins good?  Because it doesn't play one of those four cards.  Also that it doesn't play Yawgmoth's Will.  If the Vintage crux--meaning, I start my deck with 4x busted unrestricted card, didn't exist we would see more decks that would be able to compete.

I'd like to echo what Brian said in this post. Disagreeing or questioning what he said above should really make you think twice about posting whatever argument you think you've come up with and re-examine the basic logic behind it because it's probably flawed.

[Oath of Happy]

To answer the title's question, yes, there are many cards that would change things if restricted.  For one, 4 of's are not the only cards to consider for restriction, as there are many 2 and 3 of's to hit, such as grim tutor or tendrills, that would leave certain decks still playable, but a little less potent.  Then there are cards like strategic planning.  Strategic planning just turns control slaver into control slaver on speed.  Slaver was considered one the best decks, if not the best deck, in the format before people started using this card.  This card is way more busted in the deck than ponder ever was in any deck.  The card is a two mana cantrip that shows you the top 3 cards and then dumps the rest into the yard, which in combination with thirst and welder, leaves you 2 turns before you get slaved.  If you bring in graveyard hate vs control slaver, youv used your valuable draws to hit their graveyard leaving them with card advantage and bombs like tinker to ruin you without using theri graveyard.  If you dont hate out their graveyard, you have a chance, but you must play frantically trying to stop them from the get go.  Ichorid is another deck that is off the wire and cannot be stopped without a hate piece or a souped up combo deck.  Hitting bridge from below would set back ichorid a turn but also make the deck more interactive to play against, as you would have an extra turn to get a draw spell in and then try and counter the first dread return on sutured ghoul.  Bridge token on the hother hand cant be countered.  Speed like this in the format decreases playskill, because (especially in the case of ichorid) you are forced to sb heavily into cards that nuke the deck meaning you nuke it or it nukes you.  Having such heavy sideboards agaisnt certain decks not only means your either getting lucky by drawing the busted cards or your getting lucky by planning your sideboard to kill the decks you ended up playing.  Slowing down the decks in the format would mean that the cards in our sideboard would be more broad, as they woudlnt have to deal with turn one and turn 2 brokenness.  Of course, slowing down the format would also mean that control would get better and better, so in time, that would need to be looked at as well.  In the case of tps, I wouldnt say any card in the deck is unfair, but I would say that the deck is a little too powerful, so restricted it would force people to use cards that are slightly weaker, which would not be a bad thing.

Another way to change the format would be by restricting cards that people are using in combination with each other to have the effect of running 8 of a card, for example duress/thoughtseize.  Some of these cards are not in the least broken, but are too much of a hastle to deal with when your opponent is playing a deck that abuses them.  Against workshop aggro, 6 spheres is tolerable, but 9 spheres in combination with wasteland and workshop is plenty to give people unfair victories.  Of course Workshop aggro was nowhere in the worlds top 8, but that doesnt mean it isnt played.  The deck might not be good enough to win tons of tournaments, but its still good enough to give people unfair losses at tournaments, and force people to pack their sideboard full of hate for the deck.
Duress and thoughtseize are two other cards that are running rampant in the format.  If duress were restircted, not only would people only have the option of using 5 discard spells, but the combo decks that only run 4 duress would not have to use 3 duresses that make them lose life and can be misdirected.  Ever since Brainstorm got the axe (and even before it) duress has been that annoying card that you can expect your opponent to play on turn 1 every match.

Lastly, fetchalnds are one of the hugest reasons that blue decks have become so overpowered.  Restricting the fetchlands would be huge, becasue blue decks would have a harder time splashing colors just to run random broken bombs.  Instead of using basics, duals, and fetches (which are kind of like the merchant scrolls of lands) decks might actually need to use lands that have almost never been usefull in type 1 such as watery grave and underground river.  For decks that want to run 4 colors they still have the option, but will also need something like city of brass.  this of course would mean that crucible of worlds would need restriction as well, to keep waste locks from dominating blue.

If I could have it my way, the first cards I would restrict wwould be strategic planning, grim tutor, and bridge from below.  If more restriction were needed after that, I would hit crucible, fetches, sphere or resistance, and duress, and if this left control being the boss of every thing i would then hit mana drain.  I think something like this would leave the format open to playskill in which we could still use our favorite cards like lotus and ancestral, but decks would have to battle it out with cads like counterspell and the such rather than having games that go "oh look i got a better hand and I win."

Before I end this, one other idea i had was to make the minimum deck size larger, like 70 or 80 cards.  While I know a lot of people might not be ready for this, it would slow decks by 2 or 3 leading to more interaction.  With 60 card decks and all the broken tutors and such its just so easy to streamline decks into winning as fast as possible whileonly having to worry about countering one or two of the opponents spells, and seeing restricted goodies like a mox or a tutor for ancestral would be more of a bonus, than a typical type one plan.  Im not asking everyone to agree with me, but give it some thought and let me know what you all think 

[Implacable]

Wow this thread degenerated.  We just had the biggest set of restrictions in recent memory and the crowd calls for more?  What is this the French revolution?  Off with there heads! 

The banning of Will is its own issue that is based purely on values.  Good luck with that debate.

Nothing needs to be restricted.  Everyone needs to quit their whining and let the meta game play itself out.   

I will go out on a limb and say this is one of the most balanced metagames we've had in a long time.  Now enjoy it and innovate.

People ain't actually been advocating restrictions - at least, after looking through this thread, it wouldn't appear so.  They're advocating against it, while pointing out, as Shay did, that any changes to those four four cards' legality would be enormously influential. 

And to the above poster:

I love that you're new to the TMD community.  I am sure that in the future, you will have a wealth of valuable information to offer in discussions.  However, I disagree with every single thing you had to say.

[diopter]

Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, and Bazaar of Baghdad.  Those cards are all nuts, and if they were gone we would have much more room to play with when designing new decks.  The problem with these cards is that they are so much more powerful than all of the other unrestricted cards in the format that not building around at least one of them automatically makes one's deck flawed.  For instance, why isn't goblins good?  Because it doesn't play one of those four cards.  Also that it doesn't play Yawgmoth's Will.  If the Vintage crux--meaning, I start my deck with 4x busted unrestricted card, didn't exist we would see more decks that would be able to compete.

There is already a format in which decks like Goblins is good - Legacy. There is lots of room to design decks in that format - the only problem is most of those decks aren't all that fun to play (from a Vintage "let's play broken shit" perspective). The beauty of Vintage is that it still takes lots of skill to play our broken shit.

Maybe the price to pay is a bit of a smaller design space (although not really, as new archetypes pop up fairly often with new printings: see Painter) but increasing the design space comes at the cost of taking out the brokenness and bringing Vintage closer to Legacy. Which is not something I want - if I did, I'd play Legacy.

[Akuma]

Vintage as it stands is junk. Congratulations, you guys are playing the same decks we were all playing back in 2005. The June 20th restrictions accomplished nothing, the decks that win are still the busted ones. As stated earlier, pick one of the broken unrestricted four ofs and build... All we do when something is restricted is find replacements. Our options are reduced but the decks that win do the same thing as always.

Vintage = Highlander, with lands as 4 ofs.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, our "new" Brainstorm/Ponder costs about $400 for a set and it is a white bordered monstrosity. Fantastic!

[vintagethug01]

Outside of Ichorid, I really do enjoy the current Meta. Anyone who has played Vintage for a reasonable amount of time already knows the matchups and knows the output of their decklist. It's funny how since Bazaar and Workshop were unrestricted the typical debate has been to restrict both. What is the community's target for the format? I think that's exactly the question the original poster intended to be answered. I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that neither workshop/bazaar are completely handsdown broken. Yes, they're powerful and the decks structured around them really make it a point to abuse every inch of their mechanics; however, one must face the fact that this is a competative format. Anyone who insists that the speed of the game should be slower, then check out an alternative format. Most everyone should be happy that flash is out of the picture, and now hopefully DCI has their eyes on Ichorid. Remember this is a step by step process and the ruling body does not want to over impact Vintage. I think setting the clock back to a setting similar to 2005 is good because that allows for a firm controlled environment for the next vintage experiment.

The meta I would like to see is the one we're playing in right now; slightly altered and a bit hostile.

[LordHomerCat]

Ichorid is fine.  I mean, it annoys the hell out of me and I hate playing with or against it, but it's definitely underpowered compared to TPS and Slaver and doesn't really do anything particularly unfair in the grand scheme of vintage.  Restricting something in it would be a big mistake, same with the other 'power' cards in vintage.  The top8 of champs was full of decks abusing different power cards (Rituals, Drains, Bazaars) minus shops.  Really, you can either accept vintage as based around those cards, or you can kill them all (those 3 above plus workshop) and we can just play Legacy with moxes.  I'm all for vintage.

[wiley]

The Thursday night before worlds Demars and I tested the Dredge vs. Slaver match up. Now, this was even before Strategic Plans was added to the deck and it was a dumptrucking post board. I believe that I only won a single game in a series of 8 post board games. Turn two Ichorid doesn't do shit and provides CS the chance to go nuts with wasteland, SoR, or, other insanity.  It is awful. Ichorid could not keep up.

I tested it, I'm eating crow.  50 games alternating who goes first, score was 47:3 in favor of slaver.  I have yet to test post board TPS match.

As far as restrictions.

I still say, as many do, that there are cards that need to come off the list long before anything else goes on.  While there are plenty of highlander-esque decks right now, how is that any different than any point in vintage history?  Even when it was still called type 1 the only top decks that surfaced with a copious amount of 4 ofs were decks like Maysonet rack balance.  The Deck looked like as much a highlander list as anything else that stands today.

What is the community's target for the format?

Having an answer to this question would mean that the community is united in a common vision for vintage.  Even in this thread you have near mutually exclusive ideas on what vintage should look like, every major debate on restrictions since the beginning have split the community.

[Nehptis]

The meta game hopped into a time machine and went back to 2006. Can people not see this? There is no need to "let the meta game play out." We know exactly where it is going. 

I didn't want to believe you.  But, I browsed thru some of the old lists on morphling.de and WOW you are so right.  There were tons of Welders and Storm back then.  Plus a few notable showings of Oath....nice!

So, if it's 2006 again then I guess I should bust out my Thriller album, throw on some bell-bottoms, and rev up my Hummer because gas is 99 cents again!  Good times...good times.

[vintagethug01]

Ichorid is fine.  I mean, it annoys the hell out of me and I hate playing with or against it, but it's definitely underpowered compared to TPS and Slaver and doesn't really do anything particularly unfair in the grand scheme of vintage.  Restricting something in it would be a big mistake, same with the other 'power' cards in vintage.

I'll agree with you that the deck isn't that powerful; however, when every player is packing Ichorid-hate in half their sideboard then the one needs to start thinking and really wonder if something is really wrong with that. My main problem with the deck is that it does not allow for its opponents to optimize their sideboard against other crucial decks. Grant it, there are still a ton of decks that use graveyard manipulation but is it really necessary  to have 7-8 of 15 card slots devoted to that cause plus more maindeck hate?

So, if it's 2006 again then I guess I should bust out my Thriller album, throw on some bell-bottoms, and rev up my Hummer because gas is 99 cents again!  Good times...good times.

Gas was $2.00 a gallon in my area at that time... =(    ...Still it is nice to rewind the clock 8)

[LordHomerCat]

Ichorid is fine.  I mean, it annoys the hell out of me and I hate playing with or against it, but it's definitely underpowered compared to TPS and Slaver and doesn't really do anything particularly unfair in the grand scheme of vintage.  Restricting something in it would be a big mistake, same with the other 'power' cards in vintage.

I'll agree with you that the deck isn't that powerful; however, when every player is packing Ichorid-hate in half their sideboard then the one needs to start thinking and really wonder if something is really wrong with that. My main problem with the deck is that it does not allow for its opponents to optimize their sideboard against other crucial decks. Grant it, there are still a ton of decks that use graveyard manipulation but is it really necessary  to have 7-8 of 15 card slots devoted to that cause plus more maindeck hate?

So, if it's 2006 again then I guess I should bust out my Thriller album, throw on some bell-bottoms, and rev up my Hummer because gas is 99 cents again!  Good times...good times.

Gas was $2.00 a gallon in my area at that time... =(    ...Still it is nice to rewind the clock 8)

Brian and My sideboards from Champs with Slaver had zero ichorid-only cards.  Every card in that sideboard came in in multiple (and some, almost all) matchups.  The splash damage from all of the spheres and wastes plus the crypts (which are important for the mirror) were more than enough to demolish Ichorid.  Workshop decks demand that people play Rack and Ruin and Hurkyl's Recall and similar cards in the sideboard: does that mean we should restrict workshop again?

The point of the sideboard is to bring in cards to improve bad matchups.  There's no reason you have to run 8 ichorid-only cards, as some creative thinking can allow you to utilize your entire sideboard in more than just one match.  I could argue that Dark Ritual decks are bad because it makes me skew my Slaver board to be able to beat them, running like 7+ cards specifically for them which just happen to be good elsewhere, does that mean Dark Ritual should be axed?  You have to use those slots on something, and "requires too much sideboard hate" is not a valid argument for restriction.

[mgouthro]

Honestly, I find the idea of this thread moronic. We just had a slew of restrictions that have made many decks look like we're playing highlander. The metagame has barely settled into a semblance of 2005 and already people have been talking about what should be restricted next in both this thread, tournament reports, and in their own crusade threads.

I recall reading one of Smennen's articles that had a reference to what people thought should be restricted. In there was Weissman's thoughts on the matter, and virtually every card that could beat his deck was listed as something he thought should be restricted. Flash forward (no pun intended) and we have our most recent round of the B&R list. Shockwave's crusade to have Flash restricted may or may not have influenced the decision to add Flash to the restricted list. Since then, there's RaleighNCTourneys and Clark Kant trying to make a very public case against various cards in Ichorid.

You know why I gave up playing G/R aggro? (sorry Kird Ape) Because it had very few good matchups. That's the thing about each archetype. You are going to have unfavorable matchups with any deck you choose. You accept that some matchups are going to be bad. You attempt to address that by both metagaming and selecting the appropriate cards in your sideboard. If it's still a bad matchup, well then, hope you don't hit your bad matchups in the event you are playing. You know what? If you are playing Landstill, Ichorid is going to be your bad matchup. If you are playing Stax, pure aggro is going to bust your chops, etc, etc, whatever the bad matchup may be. It's immaterial to the point. No one should expect the metagame to be so balanced that any deck has at least a 50/50 chance against everything in the field. Nor should we be pressing to restrict cards until it gets to this point.

If anything, we should be pressing for unrestrictions. Instead of taking a more cautious approach to the B&R announcements, we received a thrashing of blue cards. Who knows how degenerate Flash, Gifts, or Gush would be without Merchant Scroll? If still broken, then take the further steps to restrict Brainstorm and Ponder. Lacking the consistency that those cards provided, would that have slowed the fundamental turn of those decks by 1-3 turns? Would that have been considered fair? Would Flash still be able to produce turn 1 kills with two counters as backup?

I advocate a much more moderate approach that the gangbusters job that happened and the further lobbying by others. I didn't think there was a massive problem that couldn't have been addressed that way. You don't drop random bombs on formats that are called ETERNAL. Shape it over time.

The way this has all played out has driven several people out of vintage altogether with some people selling out. I did a fun check of all the tournaments run since the B&R announcement to see that there has been a lower average turn out for a lot of events that normally pull people in...by a lot. Vintage Worlds had a good number out there...but less than it did when held at Gencon. I believe it was regularly around what...125? Canadian Nats dropped the Canadian Vintage Champs altogether. Supposedly, there wasn't enough interest in vintage. I'm hoping Vintage as a format recovers from this loss of interest in it. It's the only reason I play magic in the first place. I'm not interested in a format where I can play KirdApe.dec and have a 50/50 matchup against the field (sorry Legacy). I want to play a completely swingy format with cards that are overpowered and that can win a game in the blink of an eye.

Keep on going with these threads and others asking for restrictions, and we get closer and closer to Weissman's wish. One Deck that can beat anything. Of course, every deck would be roughly the same...probably 30-40 restricted cards, 5-6 metagaming cards, and mana. That will be the day that I quit once and for all.

So keep on plugging for unrestrictions rather than restrictions....one day Dream Halls, one day!

[senpai]

The talk of restrictions is ridiculous. I completely agree with the above poster on everything that he said. Vintage should be a format where you can play with and enjoy the most broken cards printed, its not some sort of ancient aggro format like legacy. Furthermore, Dark Ritual and Force of Will are vintage staples. Without being able to run them as four ofs, the entire format would change even more ridiculously than it just did. And honestly, if it ever gets to that point, i think i'd quit too. So please stop bringing this futile discussions over restrictions up, because honestly if wizards does indeed read these threads, they could be convinced to do something even more stupid than they already have. and that would not create the type of vintage you want to play.

[moxpearl]

Honestly, I find the idea of this thread moronic. We just had a slew of restrictions that have made many decks look like we're playing highlander. The metagame has barely settled into a semblance of 2005 and already people have been talking about what should be restricted next in both this thread, tournament reports, and in their own crusade threads.

I recall reading one of Smennen's articles that had a reference to what people thought should be restricted. In there was Weissman's thoughts on the matter, and virtually every card that could beat his deck was listed as something he thought should be restricted. Flash forward (no pun intended) and we have our most recent round of the B&R list. Shockwave's crusade to have Flash restricted may or may not have influenced the decision to add Flash to the restricted list. Since then, there's RaleighNCTourneys and Clark Kant trying to make a very public case against various cards in Ichorid.

You know why I gave up playing G/R aggro? (sorry Kird Ape) Because it had very few good matchups. That's the thing about each archetype. You are going to have unfavorable matchups with any deck you choose. You accept that some matchups are going to be bad. You attempt to address that by both metagaming and selecting the appropriate cards in your sideboard. If it's still a bad matchup, well then, hope you don't hit your bad matchups in the event you are playing. You know what? If you are playing Landstill, Ichorid is going to be your bad matchup. If you are playing Stax, pure aggro is going to bust your chops, etc, etc, whatever the bad matchup may be. It's immaterial to the point. No one should expect the metagame to be so balanced that any deck has at least a 50/50 chance against everything in the field. Nor should we be pressing to restrict cards until it gets to this point.

If anything, we should be pressing for unrestrictions. Instead of taking a more cautious approach to the B&R announcements, we received a thrashing of blue cards. Who knows how degenerate Flash, Gifts, or Gush would be without Merchant Scroll? If still broken, then take the further steps to restrict Brainstorm and Ponder. Lacking the consistency that those cards provided, would that have slowed the fundamental turn of those decks by 1-3 turns? Would that have been considered fair? Would Flash still be able to produce turn 1 kills with two counters as backup?

I advocate a much more moderate approach that the gangbusters job that happened and the further lobbying by others. I didn't think there was a massive problem that couldn't have been addressed that way. You don't drop random bombs on formats that are called ETERNAL. Shape it over time.

The way this has all played out has driven several people out of vintage altogether with some people selling out. I did a fun check of all the tournaments run since the B&R announcement to see that there has been a lower average turn out for a lot of events that normally pull people in...by a lot. Vintage Worlds had a good number out there...but less than it did when held at Gencon. I believe it was regularly around what...125? Canadian Nats dropped the Canadian Vintage Champs altogether. Supposedly, there wasn't enough interest in vintage. I'm hoping Vintage as a format recovers from this loss of interest in it. It's the only reason I play magic in the first place. I'm not interested in a format where I can play KirdApe.dec and have a 50/50 matchup against the field (sorry Legacy). I want to play a completely swingy format with cards that are overpowered and that can win a game in the blink of an eye.

Keep on going with these threads and others asking for restrictions, and we get closer and closer to Weissman's wish. One Deck that can beat anything. Of course, every deck would be roughly the same...probably 30-40 restricted cards, 5-6 metagaming cards, and mana. That will be the day that I quit once and for all.

So keep on plugging for unrestrictions rather than restrictions....one day Dream Halls, one day!

Most of us are not advocating for restrictions in this thread...I surely was not.  The point is actually the opposite in that restrictions have not moved the metagame in a new direction, but actually ironically backwards.    And it's questionable whether further restrictions, short of hitting cards which most of us would ever want touched (Drain, Ritual, Shop, Bazaar, Force, Will-ban), would ever change things.  The Brainstorm and Ponder restriction, which many thought would "shake things up", have just found replacements in other cards which have done well on a relative standpoint.   And as DCI sees the need to restrict each new (or old) Ponder/tutor, the top decks will find replacements where the endpoint (x/ lands) is a pure Highlander deck.  The question is what will change this path and do we care?

I agree unrestrictions would change things more than restrictions, but only if a card such as Gush were unrestricted.  Surely cards like Dream Halls, Enlightened Tutor, or Personal Tutor will not do that.

As to why players have left the format, that's a whole another thread, but I don't think the restrictions are the reason.  Cost of vintage cards, "uninteractive" decks, lack of support by Wizards, rising popularity of Legacy  and other items contribute just as well.

[Sean Ryan]

We moved 'backward' with the unrestriction of Gush as well.  Rather than think in terms of backwards or forwards with progression in mind, think of balance and the viability of multiple strategies as the ideal, which we most certainly have at the moment.

The harmony is not quite rock-paper-scissors, but a metagame where the top two decks (TPS/Slaver) define the meta, while the 2nd tier attempts to exploit their strategies (Workshops/Oath/Ichorid/Null Rod Aggro-control). 

Now is the time to clean up the restricted list, let new cards effect the format as they are printed, and most importantly, enjoy a balanced format.

When Vintage is healthy it is like an eternal PTQ cycle.  We are at the beginning of such a cycle.

[yatagirlofchaos]

Restricting more cards is not the answer, unrestricting more is.

You want to shake up the format? Unrestrict:

Balance
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Channel
Chrome Mox
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Entomb
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Gifts Ungiven
Grim Monolith
Gush   
Library of Alexandria 
Mox Diamond
Personal Tutor
Ponder 
Regrowth 
Time Spiral
Windfall

Just see what happens. It would be very, very interesting. Some things might need re-restricting (Channel, Crop Rotate, Demonic Consult, Fastbond, Frantic Search, Regrowth, Windfall, all possibilities)

You would have a whole new format, but with more possibilities, not less. It would be broken, but things would balance each other out. There would be so much room for innovation, it's just ridiculous.

[nineisnoone]

The only cards on that list that I think should get the same chance Flash did are:

Entomb
 - I don't see it adding that much to most current decks as there are more efficient way to fill the graveyard.  But it's clearly powerful and is worth looking to build around.
Gifts Ungiven
 - By the time it was restricted weren't most decks not even running 4x Gifts?  It's a good card, but at 4 mana I think something Brainstorm good should be available.
Fact or Fiction
 - 4 mana for card draw is a lot and I'd like to see slower decks HAVE a ridiculously good card like this. 
Burning Wish
 - I think it was a bit hastily restricted.  Yes it does get Yawg Will and other things, and it's probably the card I'm most hesitant on, but I think it'd be interesting to see.

[M.Solymossy]

@ Burning wish

NO NO NO NO NO. This is ridiculous!   Anyone who thinks this should e unrestricted is an idiot!

TPS playing red, with burning wish replacing yawgmoths will, grim tutors, and imperial seal.     4 cheap tutors for Yawgmoth's Will that don't have any drawback. Don't require Rituals to use. 

[LordHomerCat]

@ Burning wish

NO NO NO NO NO. This is ridiculous!   Anyone who thinks this should e unrestricted is an idiot!

TPS playing red, with burning wish replacing yawgmoths will, grim tutors, and imperial seal.     4 cheap tutors for Yawgmoth's Will that don't have any drawback. Don't require Rituals to use. 

I disagree 100%.  There's a HUGE drawback: you don't have Will in your deck anymore.  You will never ever draw it naturally, you will never just find it off bargain or twister or wheel.  Also, while now you can just get monkey hands that go rit rit lotus random spell tutor will, that doesn't work either since you can't replay your tutors anymore.  It would allow you to revisit something like The Shining, which is hardly unfair, but it would not be the resurgence of the original Long.dec as that was an LED deck, not a burning wish deck.  I would probably rather play black tutors in my combo deck and be able to draw Will naturally than run more red spells to screw with my good manabase that I can't even replay after casting Will.  However, I would definitely look at it in something like Slaver or some more combo-centered Drain deck, because there it would actually be strong since you aren't ever winning on the first couple turns.

[zeus-online]

What he said.

I agree on everything, burning wish isn't nearly as good for combo as Grim tutor.

Other stuff that could be unrestricted includes:
Dream halls - Costs  .
Mox diamond - Isn't really playable, maybe in some weird deck though.
Grim monolith - Not even remotely playable in vintage.
Personal tutor - Might do something, but really, no one plays it - It might sound good, but just getting tinker/will isn't enough.
Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.
Time spiral -  .
Ponder - I really don't think ponder deserved its fate, it's not even close to brainstorm.

/Zeus

[slyfer]

I would just unrestrict brainstorm. That's all. Simple and fair.
Keeper reborn, Control psychatog reborn, billions of decks more playable, more skill less luck.
 

[andrewpate]

Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.

The reason for its continued restriction isn't any of those cards; it's Fastbond.  The question of whether Turboland would be problematic is really the key to that discussion.  Personally, I do think that it would be acceptable.

Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.  The new administration over at the DCI seems to have moved away from "restrict cards until the format is fun, then leave it alone until it isn't" and moved toward "leave the broken stuff restricted and then restrict anything that makes it easy to get."  Easy access to restricted cards, and not plain deck consistency, was the rationale offered for Brainstorm and Ponder.  Under this system, Enlightened Tutor doesn't have a prayer.

[Purple Hat]

Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.

The reason for its continued restriction isn't any of those cards; it's Fastbond.  The question of whether Turboland would be problematic is really the key to that discussion.  Personally, I do think that it would be acceptable.

Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.  The new administration over at the DCI seems to have moved away from "restrict cards until the format is fun, then leave it alone until it isn't" and moved toward "leave the broken stuff restricted and then restrict anything that makes it easy to get."  Easy access to restricted cards, and not plain deck consistency, was the rationale offered for Brainstorm and Ponder.  Under this system, Enlightened Tutor doesn't have a prayer.

turn 2 Necro would also be an issue.

[Implacable]

Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.

The reason for its continued restriction isn't any of those cards; it's Fastbond.  The question of whether Turboland would be problematic is really the key to that discussion.  Personally, I do think that it would be acceptable.

Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.  The new administration over at the DCI seems to have moved away from "restrict cards until the format is fun, then leave it alone until it isn't" and moved toward "leave the broken stuff restricted and then restrict anything that makes it easy to get."  Easy access to restricted cards, and not plain deck consistency, was the rationale offered for Brainstorm and Ponder.  Under this system, Enlightened Tutor doesn't have a prayer.

turn 2 Necro would also be an issue.

Yeah, I think that as long as Necro+Bargain.dec is a possibility, ixnay on the Lightenedenay Utortay

[pierce]

I think it's funny that so many people are bitching that it's like 2006 vintage all over again.

but what did we do for all of 07 and part of 08? Cast Gush and Flash right?

But unlike 06, we have two new archetypes--both with a t8 at worlds. Painter and Dredge.

In answer to the thread, almost any card restriction that sees 4X played in at least one tier one or tier two archetype would change vintage. Some cards, such as the list that Demars posted, would change the format drastically if restricted.

But are you people really going to call for restrictions again, this early? What the fuck, are you, stupid? There HASN"T BEEN ENOUGH TIME YET TO DECIDE IF THINGS NEED TO BE RESTRICTED. I don't see at least twenty copies of a single card, like say . . .  gush and/or merchant scroll in our first large t8. Let's just all calm down. When every deck, or every other deck, starts playing 4x strategic planning (which is unlikely) or 4x bazaar let's talk about the format as something that needs to be fixed with a restriction or two.

And I agree that some cards, such as dream halls, would be as breakable as say . . . lat nam's legacy in vintage if unrestricted. Look it up. Or don't, it's not a threat.

[zeus-online]

Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.

The reason for its continued restriction isn't any of those cards; it's Fastbond.  The question of whether Turboland would be problematic is really the key to that discussion.  Personally, I do think that it would be acceptable.

Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen.  The new administration over at the DCI seems to have moved away from "restrict cards until the format is fun, then leave it alone until it isn't" and moved toward "leave the broken stuff restricted and then restrict anything that makes it easy to get."  Easy access to restricted cards, and not plain deck consistency, was the rationale offered for Brainstorm and Ponder.  Under this system, Enlightened Tutor doesn't have a prayer.

turn 2 Necro would also be an issue.

Yeah, I think that as long as Necro+Bargain.dec is a possibility, ixnay on the Lightenedenay Utortay

Well i've been through all that on other forums, and really, E. tutor is not scary.
Lets have an honest look at what it can get:
Necropotence - Yeah, but turn 2 necro is easily answered - And not nearly as lethal as turn 1 necro, i don't see this as a problem.
Yawgmoth's bargain - Still costs SIX mana, sure it's insane, but ramping up to 6 mana is often a "little" difficult, and again it gives your opponent some time to do something relevant.
Black lotus - I think this would be the most obvious use for E. Tutor if we asume that anyone would use it, getting lotus is as always really good in combo.
Fastbond - Without gush? Seems alright to me, screw turboland, this is type1!
Painter/Grindstone - Dosn't seem all that scary, it's still a two card combo which would likely allow the opponent to interfere.
Oath of druids - Well, i highly doubt they'd go as far as including E. Tutor, but it's a possibility.
Goblin charbelcher - Waiting for turn 2 with belcher seems like a bad plan.
Artifact creatures - None are worth tutoring after, except in rare cases.
Lock-components - Really needs to be drawn straight from the top, not tutored for - And even if you want a little tutoring power, wouldn't you rather run vamp/imp/demonic so that you can also fetch stripmine?

That's just about every viable card i can think of....well ofcourse there's things like counterbalance/top but that's hardly "unfair" in T1.

/Zeus

[nineisnoone]

What he said.

I agree on everything, burning wish isn't nearly as good for combo as Grim tutor.

Other stuff that could be unrestricted includes:
Dream halls - Costs  .
Mox diamond - Isn't really playable, maybe in some weird deck though.
Grim monolith - Not even remotely playable in vintage.
Personal tutor - Might do something, but really, no one plays it - It might sound good, but just getting tinker/will isn't enough.
Enlightened tutor - Well, it CAN  find black lotus, and other then that it can get both painter and grindstone, but i really don't think it deserves to be on the list.
Time spiral -  .
Ponder - I really don't think ponder deserved its fate, it's not even close to brainstorm.

/Zeus

Yeah. I don't think Burning is the proper card just as a Yawgmoth's tutor.  IMO, Ponder is a much better card for them and I agree with Zeus that it wasn't that card wasn't even restriction worthy. 

Enlightened Tutor is fine for unrestriction purposes as well. There are a couple of power cards that it can get, but there just won't be enough utility to the card.  The best it could do is help out a Bomberman or Painters/Grind deck, but I don't think either deck is so strong that they'll be too much with a boost or that the boost would even be that great.

[Xyre]

@ Burning wish

NO NO NO NO NO. This is ridiculous!   Anyone who thinks this should e unrestricted is an idiot!

TPS playing red, with burning wish replacing yawgmoths will, grim tutors, and imperial seal.     4 cheap tutors for Yawgmoth's Will that don't have any drawback. Don't require Rituals to use. 

A fair portion of the time, combo decks find their wills by just drawing into it (usually with the help of Ancestral). This move costs you that opportunity.

The primary threat of Long was unrestricted unerratad Lion's Eye Diamond.

[The Red Panda]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the real reason Burning Wish needs to stay restricted is that it can find Mind's Desire.  4x Burning wish main shouldn't be a Yawg-win tutor, it should be a Mind's desire finder.  Even for 1R plus 4UU, having four different ways to find Desire could be pretty dumb.

[nineisnoone]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the real reason Burning Wish needs to stay restricted is that it can find Mind's Desire.  4x Burning wish main shouldn't be a Yawg-win tutor, it should be a Mind's desire finder.  Even for 1R plus 4UU, having four different ways to find Desire could be pretty dumb.

I don't really see why Mind's Desire would be a better burning target than Yawgmoth's Will.