MBC In Vintage?

[yankeedave]

Hi Guys

I haven't posted on here in about 4 years, as I have been out of the game for a very long time, but am now getting back into it and going to the UK Vintage Champs this weekend in Birmingham and have been desperately trying to put together what may be a somewhat competitive deck. I hope this looks good, but will explain card choices beneath:

Lands:

20x Swamp

Creatures: 14

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Spectre
2x Tombstalker

Disruption: 16

4x Duress
4x Thoughtsieze
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Extirpate

Other: 10

4x Dark Ritual
4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Vamp Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:

4x Engineered Plague
3x Yixlid Jailer
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tornod's Crypt
2x Nev's Disk

Lands:

Cant go wrong with basics - I haven't used Fetches as I think that with the tops and the Dark Confidants, I have enough of a way to manipulate my deck. More on this later.

Creatures:

Nantuko Shade - Great pump creature with a great late game, making use of those dead top deck Rituals.

Dark Confidant - I would be some kind of idiot if I didn't use Bob!

4x Hypnotic Spectre - Not sure on this one, is filling in the gaps right now, as cannot think of another 3cc beater that does as much. I know Negator would be great here, but its an unknown meta in a sanctioned tourney, so I am expecting a lot of burn, as it is cheap.

2x Tombstalker - This thing is great, I have played with more in the deck, but found that I was getting in my opening hand too often. I was this slightly later, once I have destroyed their hand.

Disruption:

I have added a full suite of discard as I feel that this deck needs them and being able to stop combo in its tracks and take locks pieces from MUD decks is a must, otherwise, you may as well just scoop. The MD extirpates are my super secret tech, as they give that "WTF, no one plays MD Extirpate" that can really put someone off there game

Other:

I have put in the SDT's, as I think they are great draw and compliment the Bobs really well. That said, I am very tempted to drop them for Sinkholes, as I love blowing up Workshops. So I could do with some advice for this!

As for the tutors, I had them and I had two spare slots, so I thought, why not? Any suggestions as to what I can replace them with would be great, if you think they should go.

My sideboard is reflective of an unknown sanctioned meta - I expect a lot of gobbo's and Ichorid, so the Plagues, Crypts and Jailers are there for those. The needles are for most anything at all. The Nev's Disks are for MUD, but not sure about them. Maybe go for 3 of's across the board? I could really use help here!

Thanks again guys!

Dave

[Mantis]

Try running more manapermission, Null Rod + Wasteland/Strip Mine would be a good addition. Wasteland + Extirpate + Null Rod can cut people off black mana so they can't use Will.
In addition, you might want to splash green for Tarmogoyf or white for Jotun Grunt, a fast clock is key if you want to win in the time window your disruption gives you.

I don't like Vampiric Tutor here, it's just carddisadvantage in a deck that is already low on card draw.

Anyway, good luck at the Nats!

[yankeedave]

Thanks Mantis!

I did think about going down the mana denial route, as it would be very advantageous, it is definitely something to think about.

I have also given a lot of thought to the splash for 'Goyf and Grunt, as it would give me access to great cards such as StP and Grip, but leaves me open to the same hate, so still thinking about that one.

I do agree about Vamp Tutor tho, it was sat in my folder smiling at me, saying "Why do you never play me?" and so got put in the deck! Will have to find a replacement now!

Dave

[Dante]

some general comments - you can easily splash a color and still have a rock solid manabase - 4 Duals and 4-5 fetchlands still leaves you with like 11-12 basic swamps and everything can produce black.

I would highly recommend splashing a color since you have no real outs to an early Tinker for DSC, which most of the top decks seem to run.  A blue splash would allow for 1 maindeck bounce spell, with your tutors and bobs, you'll see that 1-of more easily than you think and then you can Hymn/Thoughtseize it out of their hand.  Blue would also give access to energy flux and/or hurkyls sideboard.  Or think Diabolic Edict.

Looks like you're in a no-proxy environment and you're on a budget (no power), but add in Lotus Petal for sure - cheap acceleration.

You need to add Yawgmoth's Will - "but wait, I'm not a combo deck!" you say?  I see a lot of games playing out like this - let's say your game goes according to plan - you decimate their hand with your discard and drop a creature (probably a small creature), meanwhile , they will be rebuilding their resources (mana, cards in hand).  A top-decked or tutored Yawg Will will allow you to re-decimate their hand and keep beating.  Given your rituals and the N. Shades, it could even be your own "combo" ending.

Your SDT's would probably serve you better as something else (and not sinkholes) - Null Rod, Chalice of the Void (set to 0), possibly Night's Whisper or Powder Keg (or even Contagion if you're worried about creatures).
Same thing with your Hyppies - turn 1 ritual Hypnotic was a feared play years back, but for 3 mana, a 2/2 flyer with random discard I don't think is enough bang for your buck. A couple of negators are a good choice, but iF you're worried about gobbos/burn, try old fashioned Masticore (yes it's 4, but it's beefy and has strong abilities) or even Phyrexian War Beast.

Dante

[Watanabe]

Ok, I'm not sure it is very competitive but :
- Splash G Tarmo ?
- Splah W like Pikula (not a good idea !)
- Waste/Strip
- Phyrexian Negator ?

[Hellsing293]

I'm not the vintage expert, but the tops seem sort of useless.

Maybe:

-4 Sensei's Diving Stop
+1 Yawgmoth's Will
+1 Necropotence (?cards=good)
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Lotus Petal

And also, why don't you like fetchlands?  They decrease your chances to draw into land later in the game.  I don't see a downside to using fetches in your deck but I could be wrong.

[beder]

Cant go wrong with basics - I haven't used Fetches as I think that with the tops and the Dark Confidants, I have enough of a way to manipulate my deck. More on this later.

Using fetch is what makes sensei interesting. The shuffle effect from fetch allows you to have a look at 3 new cards with sensei. This is a very common play and I could even say that the more shuffle effect you have, the more interesting sensei is. Generally, decks that uses sensei have at least 10 shuffle effects (and-or are playing cards alllowing to transform the extra sensei into something useful, card advantage for instance with thirst for knowledge).
Then, 4 sensei's really seems too much. 2-3 would be sufficent, with 5-6 fetch land and the tutors.

[ristoman]

I've always liked this archetype, however it seems plagued by consistent unreliability against the top tier decks, whichever they may be at the moment (that is, any moment).
I think what's going on here is that you're in the middle between control and aggro, and you should pick a side.

A few cards that the old versions used to include are Masticore, Sinkhole, Flesh Reaver and Contagion - I suppose their inclusion would shift the concept to Suicide, but I swear the Reaver and good ole Masti have won me many a games. Reaver has a bit of surprise factor to it whenever it comes down, and you have to know how to use it properly (for example, your life loss triggers after it deals damage, so if it's 4-4 you can beat ftw). Contagion as well is heavily underplayed yet will kill most of the utility critters in this metagame and is free (well ok, as close to free as you can get).

Oh, and Negator absolutely, ABSOLUTELY needs to be in there.
Ritual -> Negator is too insane to pass up for a flying critter that maybe will cost less than 7 after what, turn 4? Very few decks nowadays even play direct damage. When this bad boy comes down it's make or break for most control decks.

I understand DConf and Thoughtseize need some space as well - to be honest i'm not sure if the first one belongs - yeah, extra draws, but it's kind of a tiny body, easily disruptible and you have cards like Tombstalker in there. I'd much rather run DT, VT, Necro, Bargain, Consultation, Will, maybe even Grim Tutor. Yeah, it's good synergy with the top, I just have a hard time imagining that you would have the time to use it when you don't have any countermagic. I mean, against you, threats will come down and stay since you can only make them discard. So you could take out all 8 and put in more threats or removal - the point i'm trying to make is that they only help each other out and not necessarily everything else.

4 Extirpate seem a bit many, I'd switch a few to proactive threats, or other types of defence. I can see with all the discard you run being pretty easy to get rid of pesky stuff but there is such thing as too much. You already have 12 discard spells, i used to run 4 duress and 4 hymn plus 4 hippy and never felt like they weren't discarding enough. Duress itself already picks out most of the stuff that bothers you (which is not too much to be honest, this deck plays on autopilot beautifully.)

The whole basics vs fetches is subjective - this deck needs 4, maybe 5 lands in play to function properly, any more can be useful but not necessary. If you have more in hand, they're great Masticore fodder

So, tl;dr - my suggestions would be

-2 Tombstalker
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Extirpate

+4 Negator
+2 Masticore / Contagion (4 of each between MD and SB)

I understand Sinkholes can be tough to come by, but I would honestly consider including them. If you're gonna be aggressive you need to go for the throat turn 1. Play those Dark Rituals into some nasty, bothersome stuff

anyways, good luck, let us know it evolves

[vintagethug01]

I've actually been testing an MBC build recently that has given me a hope for a decks like these in the future. I really think that it could go all the way given the right pilot and maybe a little more optimization. This deck is one of my favorites and I've played varients of it as far back as Ice Age. Here's my current build; maybe you can gain some information from it.

// Deck: Vintage Thug's MBC

// Lands
    3 Wasteland
    11 Swamp
    2 Mishra's Factory
    1 Strip Mine
    2 Lake of the Dead

// Creatures
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    1 Masticore

// Spells
    3 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    3 Null Rod
    1 Death Wish
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    4 Night's Whisper
    1 Necropotence
    1 Demonic Tutor
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Sinkhole
    1 Temporal Extortion
    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Duress
    3 Extirpate
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Diabolic Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Contagion
SB: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Powder Keg
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 3 Cursed Totem

A lot of people want to give MBC a junkyard status, but I've seen this build do some very nasty things. Your biggest enemy with this deck is Chalice for 1 or 2 which hoses the majority of your spells. the key is to get null rod in your opening hand in order to shut down their artifacts so they can't hit you turn 1.  Extirpate is essential to getting rid of welders, in fact they are a complete necessity. Especially against decks that use 4-of draw engines like AK, Thirst, Strat. Hosing down their big draws makes it tough for them to gain speed and usually you can pull through in late game against their topdecks. Cursed totem puts the hurt on their creatures by stopping any sort of welder tricks or disruption that may accompany them. you also want to side in tormod's crypt to kill their graveyards.

Necropotence is a no-brainer for any mono-black deck. Draw through as much as you can, and then sac to the negator. Night's Whisper allows you to get a little draw, and it has been very useful. Kinda like a baby-necro it always gets you what you need in order to make the game pull through.

I've been a fan of temporal extortion as a finisher, same with Death wish. Temporal Extortion is great in to positions to where all you need is another swing with Negator in order to close out the match, also deathwish is great for when you play Will turning your graveyard into a Storm combo win with tendrils. If I could find room to MD tendrils I would, but it seems so tough, there never are enough cardslots these days.

[asi]

@ vintagethug

Temporal Extortion is extremely horible. Seriously, I would never play it in any format (perhaps in 10000 card  Highlander...)

I don't know why Whisper over Confidant. You win with creatures, so why no confidants?

Also, i would increase Duress/Thoughtseize count.

[vintagethug01]

Besides the fact that it works well with Lake of the Dead, it works well to play after an attack 2nd turn with negator; chances are they're going to lose the life why not sooner than later? It's also good bait for Fow or Mana Drain which you can then extirpate.

As far as Duress/thoughtseize is concerned, don't forget the 3 MD extirpate.

Nights Whisper Nets me more cards in one turn than confidant; it's cheaper in respect to loss of life and much more reliable to cast sucessfully. If I wanted more creatures I would be running +2 Mishra's Factory.

[asi]

Besides the fact that it works well with Lake of the Dead, it works well to play after an attack 2nd turn with negator; chances are they're going to lose the life why not sooner than later? It's also good bait for Fow or Mana Drain which you can then extirpate.

As far as Duress/thoughtseize is concerned, don't forget the 3 MD extirpate.

Nights Whisper Nets me more cards in one turn than confidant; it's cheaper in respect to loss of life and much more reliable to cast sucessfully. If I wanted more creatures I would be running +2 Mishra's Factory.

Night's Whisper doesn't apply pressure and doesn't need to be handled. You can run out of gas quickly with so little beaters, so I would definitely do the swap .

Lake of the Dead seems just horrible; every deck runs Wasteland+Strips )or at least Strips), so it's drawback is too heavy.

If you want Time Walk, just play Time Walk. A lot of Sui Players splash U for Time Walk, Ancestral, Mystical Tutor.

Maybe it's just me, but I like neither Sinkhole, nor Necropotence in modern Sui builds (or MBC or whatever you call it). Sinkhole is just a waste of mana; the effect isn't good enough anymore, I think. I would love to play with Necro, but in a non-combo deck, it can actually hurt you quite a bit and doesn#t deliver the brokeness it does in combo decks.

For reference, here's what I would play:

5   Swamp
4   Polluted Delta
2   Underground Sea
1   Strip Mine
4   Wasteland
1   Tomb of Urami

1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Mystical Tutor
4   Extirpate
4   Thoughtseize
1   Time Walk
4   Null Rod
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Mox Jet
1   Black Lotus
4   Dark Ritual
1   Diabolic Edict
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Demonic Tutor
3   Duress
1   Mox Sapphire
2   Hymn to Tourach

4   Hypnotic Specter
4   Dark Confidant
4   Phyrexian Negator

61   Lands: 17, Spells: 32, Crt: 12

I don't like Hymn that much currently, but I dan#t know what to play instead (you could try Tinker/Colossus, if you are a really brave man who does not fear bad topdecks/bad starting hands)

[vintagethug01]

If I wanted to splash blue I would cut hyppie, add Dimir Cutpurse and remove confidant entirely in place of sinkhole or AK. Actually at that point you might as well just go old school and build HulkSmash or better yet, GAT.