[Deck] GAG Grow A Goyf

[Benfa]

Hi everyone, i'm marco from florence, Italy. Sorry for my english, i'll try to write as well as i can

After the bannings i started testing a bazaar deck and now that i tuned it quite enough i wanna show you it.

GAG(grow a goyf) (the name is quite ugly )

Mana:(19)

1 plain
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 tundra
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta 
1black lotus
4 mox(no ruby)

Drawing:(12)

4 bazaar 
3 deep analysis
4 careful study
1 ancestral recall

Creatures:(5)

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Psycatog

Tools:(12)

4 Squee
1 time walk
1 life from the loam
3 swords to plowshares
1 darkblast
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
 
Protection:(12)

4 duress
4 force of will
4 circular logic


Sideboard:(15)

4 energy flux
4 deglamer
4 thoughtseize
1 sword to plowshares
1 darkblast
1 tropical island


The name of the deck(GAG) it's because imho the deck is not very different by GAT. It's a lot of drawing, 5 creatures, a lot of protection, low on mana because nothing  cost more than two mana(only a tog as an answer to chalice of the void settled at 2, and extirpate on goyf). After side, against control and combo decks it's also more similar to the last gat played by smennen(a deck that i liked a lot) because you cut the plain and mox pearl( you side out swords), running 17 mana and you add for 4thoughtseize having 8 discard effects.

The difference from GAT is that the deck in the first game(before side) hasn't very good match-up(except fish, you destroy them) but it  hasn't bad matchups becouse you have 3sword(with a basic plain as an answer to magus of the moon) and a darkblast so you are ok against red shop and mud.

One important thing is that in Italy usually tournaments are sanctioned so you don't run proxy and a lot of player don't own power nine and after bannings fish is reborned; also playing against goblin is not that rare. At the same a lot of artifact deck are played(both red shop and mono brown). That's why i need to run a fourth color(white) for swords(best removal ever printed). Also a lot of control and combo like tps run dark confidant main deck(to have more chance against artifact) so that swords and darkblast usually are useful in every matchup(don't forget thinker for clossus).

Another choise of metagame is not running anything in the side against manaless, it's because it's not very popoular in my metagame and lastly it's not winning all that much because everyone has a lot of hate in his sideboard; the other reason is that i haven't found good cards against manaless that are good in other matchups(also tormod's crypt, extirpate, and pithing needle that are more flexible cards than leyline, weren't very helpful in other matchups...) so i've chosen to improve the other mutchups and hope to not play against manaless twice in the swiss rounds. But it's simply a side choise based on my metagame, if you think of playing against a lot of manaless you can simply cut some cards and add leyline/tormod's/pithing needle/Yixlid jailer.   


How the deck works:

The aim of the deck is arriving at turn four alive than the game become easy because you get a lot of card advantage.

Reading the list you could think that 4 colors are too many but if you test the deck u'll see that mana it's not a problem, simply give it a try...

Bazaar is obviously the key card of the deck, because the deck is builded around it, with squee and deep you have a lot of advantage, useless to say that... Usually if u open an hand with bazaar u never mulligan, no matter what the other six cards are. Another key card of the deck is careful study, if you open an hand without bazaar it helps you to see a lot of cards(discarding into a deep for example, or dwawing a tutor/bazaar/careful/ancestral). You cannot mulligan every time you haven't bazaar so you need 4careful, not less; If you start with bazaar usally you will not cast careful in the game, but you will not discard it very often because it's the only card that you want to pitch at force of will.

The aim of tutors is to have two more cards in opening hand that let you search for, again, bazaar.

Life from the loam is really a powerhouse in this deck. It enables wasteland and it helps you to find the bazaar(dredge 3 usually is better than drawing one), than it's very good when you don't find squee in the early games having a card advantage at the same; lastly it leaves you a way to get card advantage if your opponent play an extirpate on squee.

Playing this deck is really difficult, you can read it like "playing perfectly", you need time to get confidence with all the little tricks you can do, but after some testing it's really funny to play and at the same time not a tier2(imho).

Using the side is not aesy because you should know what king of hate(and how many cards) your opponent has in his sideboard. He has leyline? Or Yixlid jailer? Pithing needle? Tormod's? A mix of them? You side out darkblast or leave it in the deck for a possible Yizlid jailer? A good news is that except jailer all the other cards are artifacts/enchantment so deglamer can take care of them. Another thing to say is that every side has cards against manaless and so they have cards against us but the difference is that against manaless every deck has useless cards to side out while against this deck they haven't useless cards so it's difficult siding too many cards.

Why deglamer instead of naturalize/ray of revelation/oxidize etc.? Because deglamer is very flexible, it destroy both artifact and enchantment and it's an answer to thinker for colossus or sundering titan, and that's very important when you side out sword against control and combo; moreover it can nullify the effect of mistical tutor or vampiric tutor shuffling an artifact in the deck, it nullify the recursion effect with welder or the immortality of a mishra factory with crucible of worlds. With only 4 slots in the side you have 4 good cards against artifact/oath and an answer to the opponent hate. 

Other cards that i tested are intuition and balance but they didn't the cut because about intuition, every card that cost more than 2 mana in a deck that start with bazaar first turn(= 0 mana) and hasn't sol ring or mana crypt, is too slow; while balance i thought was good, but testing, the most of the times i drew it, was useless. In the begin i was playing thoughtseize in the main and duress in side but it was too loss of life with deep/fow/fecth and against tendrill of agony was very risky, while after side with 8 discard effect you risk less a death by tendril.

Match-up analysis:

Fish: our best matchup, darkblast/life from the loam/sword/goyf are devasting. Side: +1sword +1darkblast +1tropical +2/3 deglamer out 4duress 1-2 between circular logic/deep/underground sea

Tps: i think we have 50%, after side surely the add of 4 more discard effects give us more chance to stop their boost . Out 3sword 1dark blast 1plain 1mox pearl 1tundra 1deep  in 4thoughtseize 3deglamer 1tropical island

Oath: The first game it's not easy but after side it's another story, it's difficult for them to let an oath in play. out 2tarmogoyf 3sword 1darkblast 1plain 1mox pearl 1tundra   in 4thoughtseize 4deglamer 1tropical island

Control decks: They don't have the boost of combo but they have more counters, i think it's about 50% side like against tps

Mono brown: Tarmogoyf is really good, smokestack is bad, i think we are 50% again, 55% after side(we both side a lot of cards). out 4duress 4circular logic 1darkblast 1demonic tutor/deep in 4deglamer 4energy flux 1tropical 1sword
 
Red Shop: out 4duress 4circular logic 1demonic 2deep    in 4deglamer 4energy flux 1darkblast 1tropical island 1sword

Control Slavery: Having swords and darkblast for their welder really help you a lot, it's not a bad matchup, i think it's about 60%. I don't think we will side a lot of cards, we haven't useless cards... it depends if the play magus of the moon or not, if they don't we could play without white and with two darkblast, but probably it's not a good choise. 

In the end there aren't bad matchups other than manaless(but you can play side cards if you are worried to face many of them), there aren't very good matchups, in spite of fish, but i think that after side there is an edge against the most of the decks(but no more than 55% or max 60%).



I hope someone will try the deck.

Let me know what you think, critics, questions, etc. are welcome

My 2 cents

Marco Benifei

[KnowmaD]

I really like your deck.  Whenever I hear something like " this deck is hard to play"  I'm  immediately interested.  Little things like deglamer is smart.  Off the top I don't see anything I would change other than adding some basic lands.  I will try this one.

Do you think four mox over five is better?  Or are you still saving up for one.

                                                                                                             build on
                                                                                                           Knowmad


Opps,  meant to say more basic lands.  Good catch.

[M.Solymossy]

I wish people would get rid of this idea they have that Tarmogoyf is a good creature in vintage.  Literally every single time that guy has resolved against me, I sigh relief that my opponent wasted two mana to play a vanilla creature.

[Shock Wave]

I wish people would get rid of this idea they have that Tarmogoyf is a good creature in vintage.  Literally every single time that guy has resolved against me, I sigh relief that my opponent wasted two mana to play a vanilla creature.

It is not that Tarmogoyf is bad, but rather that it is only really effective as a finisher and when backed by lots of disruption. I think it can work well in Fish style decks as a fast clock, but to try to pump this guy out and race seems like a very poor plan.

[desolutionist]

This deck looks really fun!

I would think to see Ancient Grudge at least in the sideboard.  Is there any particular reason for not including red for Ancient Grudge?

And since you already have Darkblast for Welders and Dark Confidants, could you cut the Swords (and the basic Plains!) for Mystical Tutor, a blue bounce spell (DSC), and something else?

[Benfa]

@KnowmaD

I'm happy u like the deck. Basic lands and fifth mox are good questions... Since a week ago i was playing with five mox, a plain and an island. Moxes are good when you start bazaar first turn and you want cast deep from the grave in the second one. Another scenario is first turn careful, second turn mox deep bazaar/land duress, or similar things, but after that moxes are useless, you're going to discard the most of your lands you draw cause i want to keep the spell instead(you discard 3 cards every turn by bazaar) and a fantastic thing of the deck is that if u have 3 mana in play u don't need any more; often in the beginning u can play simply with bazaar and one or two mana, simply searching disruption (duress/logic/fow) discarding all the other cards to answer for opponent threats, than when you find 2 squee...
A funny thing you can do with mox ruby is a recursion of squee, it happened that it won me some games, but rarely, so that's not worth 1slot, and at the same time you don't need very much mana colorless, so i decided to cut the mox offcolor for a spell getting more raw power.
Basic land: with these 4colors the only other basic u can play is island. Against artifact decks(red shop and mud) basics are really good(forest would be nice but no way to play it, no green fetches get an underground sea) but in every other matchup basics are not that good, also against fish decks if u hold a bazaar in hand u can try  to cast first turn a careful or duress, or mox goyf so that they use their wasteland on your first land, saving the bazaar, once bazaar hit play u'll have all mana that u need.
One scenario you need a basic island is if u open your hand with only one land and a careful into a deep or careful #2, that's when you would need a basic island, but drawing 2 by careful and one more of turn it means that's 3 new cards, you should have drawn one land, and if u drew into a land it would be better to have fecthed for a land that give you 2colors(you've to arrive at 4...), or letting in play a decoy for opponent wasteland for saving bazaar(obviously not against artifact decks that run spheres, here you need as much mana as you can).
I would like having one island but probably if i had one slot i would prefer the third tropical saving a side slot, and you can't cut black mana, you need one in the opening hand for duress/tutors.

 
@13NoVa:

If you say that, probably you usually play combo decks, but if you would play an artifact or creatures deck you wouldn't say i wasted two mana casting a goyf. Against combo or control you want, like "Shock Wave" wrote, simply pack a lot of disruption, as much as you can and than goyf it's simply a finisher, and not that slow, being a 5/6. Goyf it's like driad worded in gat, if i'm playing against long versions or tps, attacking you quickly give you a few draw, and moreover you don't have many turns for casting necropotence or bargain. Obviously i prefer to draw duress/fow/logic than goyf in a game versus combo.

@Desolutionist:

Ancient grudge would be nice in this deck but without red mana you destroy only one artifact, and more important it's not a flexible card like deglamer is(you side it against every matchup). You could cut some energy flux but i like having gg cards against artifact decks.
About cutting white and add mystical and bounce spell i perfectly understand you. That's the "classic" approach, and it's classic because it's a good one; but bazaar of baghdad is a card that changes the rules of the game, we understood it with manaless, you have to forget every preconcept of deck construction if you run bazaar in your deck because rules change. Before it was: every turn you draw a card... now it's every turn you draw 3 and discard 3(and that's if you have only one bazaar in play), things works differently. I'm not able to explain you why in this deck is better playing a fourth color for swords instead of bouncing spells, i can simply tell you to try the deck, so you'll notice it.

Thanks everybody for reply

Marco

[zeus-online]

I wish people would get rid of this idea they have that Tarmogoyf is a good creature in vintage.  Literally every single time that guy has resolved against me, I sigh relief that my opponent wasted two mana to play a vanilla creature.

I think it could be quite good in vintage, like a new kind of psychatog/morphling - Both of which can only beat and have been quite the force in the past.

I'm pretty sure it would require alot of disruption though. The idea with it being that it trumph's most other decks creature-based threats. (DSC is also a good example of this type of finisher)

/Zeus

[LordHomerCat]

I wish people would get rid of this idea they have that Tarmogoyf is a good creature in vintage.  Literally every single time that guy has resolved against me, I sigh relief that my opponent wasted two mana to play a vanilla creature.

I think it could be quite good in vintage, like a new kind of psychatog/morphling - Both of which can only beat and have been quite the force in the past.

I'm pretty sure it would require alot of disruption though. The idea with it being that it trumph's most other decks creature-based threats. (DSC is also a good example of this type of finisher)

/Zeus

The thing is, Morphling was good a looong time ago and is way too slow and do-nothing in the current environment, and while Tog could only beat, he is pretty much always Lethal.  Goyf will never kill faster than 4 turns.  Tog usually kills on the first untap, so while he only swings, he swings and kills people really fast compared to Goyf.

[desolutionist]

After testing this deck on mws for some, I'm under the initial impression that this deck is very good.  Force of Will, Duress, and Circular Logic (with Bazaar) is plenty to get you to the mid-game where you dominate with advantage from Squee and Life from the Loam. But ironically, I think the popularity of Ichorid in the U.S. is enough for skepticism.

Life from the loam is really a powerhouse in this deck. It enables wasteland and it helps you to find the bazaar(dredge 3 usually is better than drawing one), than it's very good when you don't find squee in the early games having a card advantage at the same; lastly it leaves you a way to get card advantage if your opponent play an extirpate on squee.

I didn't see Wasteland in your original list. Was it meant to be included?

Ancient grudge would be nice in this deck but without red mana you destroy only one artifact, and more important it's not a flexible card like deglamer is(you side it against every matchup).

Which is why I suggested the addition of red.  Unless you're expecting Leyline, Deglamer worse than Ancient Grudge in every non-Oath matchup.  It seems awful to not take advantage of such a good card in a deck with Bazaar of Baghdad. 

About cutting white and add mystical and bounce spell i perfectly understand you. That's the "classic" approach, and it's classic because it's a good one; but bazaar of baghdad is a card that changes the rules of the game, we understood it with manaless, you have to forget every preconcept of deck construction if you run bazaar in your deck because rules change. Before it was: every turn you draw a card... now it's every turn you draw 3 and discard 3(and that's if you have only one bazaar in play), things works differently. I'm not able to explain you why in this deck is better playing a fourth color for swords instead of bouncing spells, i can simply tell you to try the deck, so you'll notice it.

Yeah I agree.  The consistency is worth it.

[AngryPheldagrif]

The entire concept of the deck reminds me heavily of MADragon. A diluted strategy that is proficient at everything but excels at nothing. Problem is, the format has matured far past the point where you can take that role and run with it. If your entire deck is Bazaar-centric, why not just run Ichorid?

For starters, your deck is full of incredibly subpar cards. Squee does nothing by itself. Creature kill can often be dead. Life from the Loam is terrible with nothing worthwhile to recur. Deep Analysis is marginal without Bazaar. Careful Study is simple card disadvantage. Circular Logic is a dead draw to open. Basic Plains is obviously wrong. No bounce or maindeck solution to artifacts of any sort. A mana curve agonizingly vulnerable to Chalice at 1, while Chalice at 2 leaves you with 1 out both pre- and post-board. A very slim mana base. No Brainstorm.

Even your win conditions seem misplaced. No real explanation of what makes Tarmogoyf an ideal choice aside from ability to put more cards in the graveyard.

You say you have tuned it for some time now, but I see very little evidence of that. If it is a narrowly tuned answer to your local metagame then posting it for global discussion is pointless.

The aim of the deck is arriving at turn four alive than the game become easy because you get a lot of card advantage.

I strongly feel that this statement sums up the problem all too well, the problem being a fundamental misunderstanding of the fundamental turn of Vintage. Any deck aiming to stabilize at turn 4 is going to be obliterated by sheer functional mathematics. Vintage decks such as TPS, Control Slaver, Workshop, Ichorid, and really anything that would be considered viable by consensus operates at a fundamental turn of 2.5. Turn 4? By that time Control Slaver will have Mana Drain up and be digging for a robot, Workshop will have you under either a swift clock or a boatload of prison, Ichorid will be pouring Zombies down your throat like it's going out of style, and TPS will be shuffling up for game 2.

Being proficient at everything but great at nothing hasn't been a viable strategy for years. Logic, theory, and probability all dictate that you will end up on the wrong end of too many Slaver activations, Tendrils for 20, and Darksteel swings long before you get close to the top 8.

[desolutionist]

The entire concept of the deck reminds me heavily of MADragon. A diluted strategy that is proficient at everything but excels at nothing. Problem is, the format has matured far past the point where you can take that role and run with it. If your entire deck is Bazaar-centric, why not just run Ichorid?

Ichorid is easy to disrupt and never wins.  The quintessential Bazaar-centric deck?  That's like saying Dark Ritual ends with Meandeck Tendrils.

Squee does nothing by itself.

Can you explain what that even means?  It's simple card advantage.

I strongly feel that this statement sums up the problem all too well, the problem being a fundamental misunderstanding of the fundamental turn of Vintage. Any deck aiming to stabilize at turn 4 is going to be obliterated by sheer functional mathematics. Vintage decks such as TPS, Control Slaver, Workshop, Ichorid, and really anything that would be considered viable by consensus operates at a fundamental turn of 2.5. Turn 4? By that time Control Slaver will have Mana Drain up and be digging for a robot, Workshop will have you under either a swift clock or a boatload of prison, Ichorid will be pouring Zombies down your throat like it's going out of style, and TPS will be shuffling up for game 2.

This deck has an average fundamental turn of 2, when Circular Logic comes online with Bazaar.  The mid-game (turn 3-4) is essentially eotfofyl. 

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I wish people would get rid of this idea they have that Tarmogoyf is a good creature in vintage.  Literally every single time that guy has resolved against me, I sigh relief that my opponent wasted two mana to play a vanilla creature.

I'm not sure I understand how the moderation on this site works. Shouldn't a mod butt in and say something like "duuurr thats not productive! Plz contribute to da convo or shut up".

On a serious note, I like the deck. The only real issue I see (as others have as well) is your vulnerability to splash damage. Everyone either has Crypts, Leylines, Extirpates, or Needles floating around to fight the Ichorid menace. Do you have a plan B? Have you ever just started a series of games and said "Ok, my opponent has THIS in play... how can I deal"? Its always important to play for the game two. Obv, people will see that the deck revolves around the Bazaar and the GY and think "woot. Ichorid hate works". I know its silly, but have you considered some of the alternate madness aspects such as Wild Mongrel or even Aquamoeba? Mongrel would serve as a nice beater and potential finisher, but Moeba would up the blue count while still being a decent beater... Just some food for thought.

[Implacable]

Nicolae brings up a good point.  I've been testing this deck exclusively on MWS for the past few days, and I haven't yet seen any Leylines post-board; people seem leery to bring them in against a deck that isn't a 'combo' deck.  If I do see them, however, I'm not sure what I'll do; the deck would have serious problems with its Logics turned off, its Squees dead, and its Bazaars strictly card disadvantage.  I think the answer is probably in the sideboard, with Rays and Grudges to target the hate that's brought in.

[AngryPheldagrif]

The entire concept of the deck reminds me heavily of MADragon. A diluted strategy that is proficient at everything but excels at nothing. Problem is, the format has matured far past the point where you can take that role and run with it. If your entire deck is Bazaar-centric, why not just run Ichorid?

Ichorid is easy to disrupt and never wins.  The quintessential Bazaar-centric deck?  That's like saying Dark Ritual ends with Meandeck Tendrils.

I was drawing a comparison that this is, in fact, simply a less efficient Ichorid. The Bazaar comparison is more saying this with Bazaar is to it in Ichorid, as Dark Ritual in Sui Black is to it in Long.

If Ichorid is 'easy to disrupt and never wins,' this should be even worse. It is a ton slower and only slightly less crippled by Leyline as Ichorid.

Squee does nothing by itself.

Can you explain what that even means?  It's simple card advantage.

I hope that is a joke. It is card advantage only once you manage to recur it twice. There is a reason even Dragon cut the card a long time back. Squee is a mulligan to 6 in your opening hand.

I strongly feel that this statement sums up the problem all too well, the problem being a fundamental misunderstanding of the fundamental turn of Vintage. Any deck aiming to stabilize at turn 4 is going to be obliterated by sheer functional mathematics. Vintage decks such as TPS, Control Slaver, Workshop, Ichorid, and really anything that would be considered viable by consensus operates at a fundamental turn of 2.5. Turn 4? By that time Control Slaver will have Mana Drain up and be digging for a robot, Workshop will have you under either a swift clock or a boatload of prison, Ichorid will be pouring Zombies down your throat like it's going out of style, and TPS will be shuffling up for game 2.

This deck has an average fundamental turn of 2, when Circular Logic comes online with Bazaar.  The mid-game (turn 3-4) is essentially eotfofyl.[/quote]

Having one more piece of countermagic that may be available in tandem with a single other card does not somehow magically lower its fundamental turn back to a nice safe Vintage speed. Logic not only requires you to have Bazaar, but that you leave it untapped with a blue mana open at all times. They can always just respond to the activation by casting spells. Oh, and it also requires you to have a graveyard and not be under a Leyline/Crypt/etc.

If this deck has a backup plan for operating without the graveyard or without Bazaar, I'm must be missing it.

[Benfa]

Posted by: desolutionist

I didn't see Wasteland in your original list. Was it meant to be included?

I mean that opponent's wasteland are useless if you have life from the loam.

Which is why I suggested the addition of red.  Unless you're expecting Leyline, Deglamer worse than Ancient Grudge in every non-Oath matchup.  It seems awful to not take advantage of such a good card in a deck with Bazaar of Baghdad.

Do you want to add the fifth color? You are brave , if you do it, my advice it to keep in side both deglamer and grudge, because deglamer is an answer to pithing needle and leyline, you need deglamer in every match-up. I'm happy you had a good impression testing the deck.



Posted by: AngryPheldagrif

If this deck has a backup plan for operating without the graveyard or without Bazaar, I'm must be missing it.

This deck is worst than manaless, you are right, but it's worst only the first game, it's not explosive as manaless is, but after side this deck is much better than manaless, i think of being stronger after side against the most of the mutchup than in first game because i've key cards like energy flux and toughthseize, and deglamer as answer to opponent's hate. If i could choose i'd like to play all my games after side also if my opponent has a lot of hate, i think to improve the matchup more than them and that's because i put a lot of work testing after side .

The sentence: Careful is card disadvantage, or squee doesn't do nothing it's stupid... What does yawgmoth's will without grave, what does tendril without other spells? And thinker or tolarian academy without artifacts? The cards are sinergic among them, a careful is always good in the contest of the deck... Sure you need bazaar, but the deck is built around it and to find it and protect against opponent hate(deglamer) or wasteland(life from the loam).




Posted by: NicolaeAlmighty

Everyone either has Crypts, Leylines, Extirpates, or Needles floating around to fight the Ichorid menace. Do you have a plan B? Have you ever just started a series of games and said "Ok, my opponent has THIS in play... how can I deal"? Its always important to play for the game two. Obv, people will see that the deck revolves around the Bazaar and the GY and think "woot. Ichorid hate works". I know its silly, but have you considered some of the alternate madness aspects such as Wild Mongrel or even Aquamoeba? Mongrel would serve as a nice beater and potential finisher, but Moeba would up the blue count while still being a decent beater... Just some food for thought.

Good question, thank you. I thought a lot how to play g2 and my conclusion is that deglamer is the key card, if you read the post i explain how to side in every match-up. Testing i noticed that tormod's crypt was never a problem form me, at least not a big one, because you discard by bazaar in eot and so you don't discard all squee in once if they have tormod's in play, and they have to sacrifice it if you simply have a deep and a squee in the grave, after two turns you'll have a full graveyard again... Extirpate is a bit more painfull than tormod's but i learned to play against it: never side out psycatog so if they hit tarmogoyf you still have a win condition; never side out life from the loam, so if they it squee you still have card advantage. The real problems are leyline and pithing needle. Leyline is the worst card you can face, but 50% of times they will not hold it in the opening hand and that means that if they draw it later you have all the time to counter it, or discard, or having a deglamer; if they start the game with leyline you need a deglamer, having a mongrell or an aquameba it's quite useless, i tried it(i was playing with mongrell and rootwalla), the best way is to have an answer, than having a plan B, because the most of the deck is based on grave and on having a madness activator, i would side at least 3 deglamer in every match-up, sometimes 4(if there is a game 3 you have more informations on opponent's deck). Pithing needle is similar to leyline: you have the advantage that going first you can discard it, or activate bazaar once so that's easyer to find a deglamer or discarding a deep to draw two more cards the turn later; but pithing needle cost only one mana and it's easy to tutor and then cast it in the same turn, i think it's the worst card we can face and we must side answers to it.



Posted by: Implacable

Nicolae brings up a good point.  I've been testing this deck exclusively on MWS for the past few days, and I haven't yet seen any Leylines post-board; people seem leery to bring them in against a deck that isn't a 'combo' deck.

I noticed it too; it's not easy to find a lot of space for sideboard cards against a deck that run both control than creatures. Imho leyline is an extreme card, you like to side it against an extreme deck like manaless but testing my tps against GAG it's been difficult to find the space for 4leyline because you need duress and fow(and blue spell to pitch), so what do you side out? Moreover drawing in middle game leyline instead of good cards sided out wasn't very nice.

I think the answer is probably in the sideboard, with Rays and Grudges to target the hate that's brought in.

That's also my opinion, and for doing it i use deglamer that's good both if they run pithing needle or leyline.

[mishraw]

Hi Benfa, amazing deck!

I'd like to see intuition maindeck, cause there are many synergies between that card and squee/bazaar/life from the loam/deep analisys.
Obviously, it's not a fast played but i'm sure the deck manages good with: in a free - more slow- gush field, intuition become viable again.
At second, have u never thought about DSC and tinker maindeck? I've already suggested this way to you when you proposed your last madness list, few months ago: I like random finishers, and DSC would be perfect, considering colossus is also a cutie bazaar-food .

P.s: how can u have a so bad opinion about tarmogoyf? it's simply the best creature in everyone aggrocontrol decks, beatin'hard and cheap casting cost.

See ya next on Ovinogeddon, bye Benfa.

[Liam-K]

I'm not sure how this isn't a take on UG madness, and I am pretty sure updating that deck doesn't make it very competative.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Do you want to add the fifth color? You are brave , if you do it, my advice it to keep in side both deglamer and grudge, because deglamer is an answer to pithing needle and leyline, you need deglamer in every match-up. I'm happy you had a good impression testing the deck.

Doesn't this basically outline the requirement of a maindeck bounce spell? Otherwise your solution is relying on a glorified Naturalize. Naturalize being the card that sees zero play and does nothing to help you versus Chalice @2, nor is it blue, nor does it answer multiple hate pieces, nor does it offer a permanent solution to anything in particular.

This deck is worst than manaless, you are right, but it's worst only the first game, it's not explosive as manaless is, but after side this deck is much better than manaless, i think of being stronger after side against the most of the mutchup than in first game because i've key cards like energy flux and toughthseize, and deglamer as answer to opponent's hate. If i could choose i'd like to play all my games after side also if my opponent has a lot of hate, i think to improve the matchup more than them and that's because i put a lot of work testing after side .

Manaless Ichorid is a strong deck (contrary to Desolutionist's assertion, see: Vintage Worlds T8) because it wins an overwhelming majority of its game 1's. Thus, even though it has to fight through a typically brutal assortment of postboard hate, it can succeed because it only has to win one of two games. This means, statistically, that even if it is 40/60 in a matchup postboard, it is a 2:1 favorite to win the match after winning game 1.

Your assertion that this deck prefers to win postboard is very flawed, because it fails to take into account your opponent's increased strength. You count on outmaneuvering them by boarding in answers, which is all too likely to dilute an already slow strategy down further, leading to painful mulligans with your dead and weak cards.

The deck fails in comparison to Ichorid because Ichorid can present a highly inevitable clock off a lone Bazaar. This deck can only threaten to begin drawing cards and eventually lay a Tarmogoyf. That is no such a scary proposition in this format.

The sentence: Careful is card disadvantage, or squee doesn't do nothing it's stupid... What does yawgmoth's will without grave, what does tendril without other spells? And thinker or tolarian academy without artifacts?

This is an utterly illogical argument. Your average combo deck has 1 Yawgmoth's Will and 1 Tendrils, and often they can in fact be dead cards in the opening hand. There is a reason almost no decks run 4 Tendrils, and I doubt many would run 4 Yawgmoth's Wills were it hypothetically unrestricted. Tinker and Academy are also single copies, and are hardly statistic liabilities considering they are reliant on mana artifacts which are run in high numbers and are largely free to cast.

But your deck runs 4 potentially dead copies of Squee alone. These are completely dead without either a Bazaar or a Careful Study, and provide no mathematic card advantage until you've gotten two recursions from them, which means turn 3 at the earliest. At least Careful Study pitches to Force of Will. I'm uncertain as to why the card is good even in your deck since it provides no advantage unless you have two copies of Squee and/or Deep Analysis to benefit from it.

The cards are sinergic among them,

Synergy is a poor excuse to run subpar cards. Synergy in Vintage needs to provide a tremendous benefit to justify including highly interactive pieces. Slaver, for example, uses the synergy of Welder with Thirst for Knowledge to put gamebreaking artifacts directly into play at instant speed, while Welder doubles as defense against both counters and against opposing artifacts and Thirst is at worst an instant speed card filtering engine.

Careful Study has synergy with Squee and Deep Analysis, yes, but with the end result of producing nothing more than moderate card advantage, while each piece on its own is either card disadvantage or prohibitively expensive to cast.

a careful is always good in the contest of the deck...

If you have no Squee or Deep Analysis, I fail to see how it is 'always good' to net -1 card advantage.
 

Sure you need bazaar, but the deck is built around it and to find it

You run two tutors total. If you're really building the deck to find it, why not Crop Rotation at the very least?

and protect against opponent hate(deglamer)

4 copies total is supposed to protect you? Postboard Ichorid brings often brings in 10+ cards that answer board hate and it STILL has a struggle.

or wasteland(life from the loam).

Again, single copy with only two tutors. Being on your off-color seems rather counterintuitive against Wasteland, too.



Another thing I would love to hear is what your plan against Ichorid is. Ichorid, for better or worse, love it or hate it, is a contender and sees play. It won the Vintage prelim and it took at T8 spot at Worlds. Yet by your posted list your matchup versus Ichorid would be about 95/5 against you. That is being fairly generous in estimating 5% of the time Ichorid mulligans itself into oblivion twice in a match. In fact, I would tend to believe the real odds are closer to 99/1. Literally giving up any hope of defeating one of the majorly played archetypes strikes me as a, to put it gently, rather flawed strategy.

[Benfa]

Posted by: mishraw

Hi Benfa, amazing deck!

Thank you!

I'd like to see intuition maindeck

I was playing one intuition and it's nice, but a bit slow, there aren't cards worst than intuition main deck imho, it's my 61 card so it didn't the cut. 3 mana means that's not a card in the opening hand that can easily tutor for bazaar, and in mid game it's not very good, but surely is a nice card in this deck.

At second, have u never thought about DSC and tinker maindeck?

I really don't like this solution. We have only 5 artifacts and one is lotus... we don't have crypt and sol ring that are needed to play tinker. Than against creatures deck where colossus is good usually they run wasteland and the difference between goyf that cost 2mana and tinker that cost 3 is quite huge in a deck like this that's low on mana. Then there are a lot of bounce spell, bouncing a colossus is different than bouncing a goyf, 2 mana and it's back into play, and i wouldn't cut 2protections for 2 more winning card.


Posted by: AngryPheldagrif

Doesn't this basically outline the requirement of a maindeck bounce spell? Otherwise your solution is relying on a glorified Naturalize. Naturalize being the card that sees zero play and does nothing to help you versus Chalice @2, nor is it blue, nor does it answer multiple hate pieces, nor does it offer a permanent solution to anything in particular.

I don't understand why i would need a bounce in the main deck... It seems to me useless. Against chalice you have energy flux, the tog, and could be a goyf is already in play, than for an artifact deck set a chalice at two stop them all the spheres...

Manaless Ichorid is a strong deck (contrary to Desolutionist's assertion, see: Vintage Worlds T8) because it wins an overwhelming majority of its game 1's. Thus, even though it has to fight through a typically brutal assortment of postboard hate, it can succeed because it only has to win one of two games. This means, statistically, that even if it is 40/60 in a matchup postboard, it is a 2:1 favorite to win the match after winning game 1.

I don't think that manaless has 40% in g2 when the opponent start, otherwise it would be the best deck ever winning the most of g1, and like the name says manaless is built to not cast spell that require mana so after side it try to do a thing that's not builded for, so it does it badly. Moreover cards like tormod's have a different impact against manaless than against GAG. After side manaless hasn't tutors, no card drawing other than bazaar(hated), no counters to protect the answers, few mana, specific answers(a contagion doesn't destroy a leyline, the same for an oxidize, and charm doesn't destroy needle).

Side is a metagame choise. In a proxy tournaments surely the darkblast n.2 in side is quite useless, you can play with 3thoughtseize, 3deglamer, 3flux and still have a good side against the most of the field. Now you have 4slot against manaless(4leyline, or 3leyline and 1Yixlid?), it's still not a good mutchup but not an autoloss. Every deck has not good matchup, GAT couldn't win against MUD but it was a great deck at the same.

I'd like you try a bit the deck otherwise you can't really see how the deck works

[Implacable]

This deck is very pretty.  Unfortunately - and I've tested it in dozens of matches over the last few days - it isn't very good.  Basically, it rewards you for playing bad opponents.  Skilled opponents with solid decks or solid opponents with good decks just wreck you.  It crushes jank, but the Long matchup is a nightmare and the Stax matchup is as well.  Disruption just isn't there in the early game against the former, and against the latter it's difficult to lay and stick an early clock, and impossible to stick and maintain a Bazaar.  When a deck loses to 2/3 of Tier 1, it isn't playable.

[Sean Ryan]

I think you would be more successful if you pursued went more aggro-control.  With the restriction of Gush you can't really play like GAT, and you are much weaker than the other control decks in the format as it stands now.  So, why not cut the situational cards like Squee and add Dark Confidant, who combines with Bazaar Loam very nicely.  Null Rod is another option that goes with this strategy.  You really don't need white either.

Something like this:

Win: 6
4 Goyf
1 Tog
1 Will

Draw: 18
4 Confidant
4 Bazaar
2 Deep
1 Loam
1 Recall
1 Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 DT
1 VT
1 MT
1 Intuition

Disrupt:16
4 Fow
4 Duress
3 Null Rod
3 Stiffle/Daze/Misdirection/C.Logic
1 Bounce
1 Dblast

MAna: 20
6 Fetch
4 Sea
2 Trop
1 ISland
3 Strip/Waste
4 Lotus/mox

SB
6 anti-Ichorid
2 Island/Swamp
3 H. Recall/Rebuild/EFlux
4 Misc.

This build gives you both flexibility and aggression.  Intuition sets up the draw engine and should be included.  It also opens up other possibilities such as running uncounterable answers: Maze of Ith, Cabal Pit, Mishra's Factory.

If Null Rod proves weaker than expected just add more Duress effects or counters.  Test this in comparison to your original build and tell me what you think.

Sean