BUG Fish - Innovating Null Rod strategies in Vintage

[Qube]

I like Mana Leak more than Negate at the moment. for the reasons you told.

The possitiv of Cursecatcher is, that the opponent never can tapout because otherwise he can't counter. it slows down the opponent (but you don't see this on the other side of table) I don't know if it's good to run less than 4. For the game 2-3 you can side it out if nessecary.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I've seen both played; right now I think Leak is probably a little better.  I haven't had much success with Cursecatcher, but that's just me.

[the boogie man]

Have you tested cursecatcher with the full 4 stifle? I really like him. If you run  1-2 lftl and/or trygon predator, it gives him some staying power as well.

[Twaun007]

I went down to 3 because I was tired of drawing infinite Null Rods.

I have been going back and forth between 3 and 4 Null Rods due to my uncanny ability to top deck them like a champ after I have one in play. I don’t know what number is correct.

I haven't had much success with Cursecatcher, but that's just me.

I actually hate Cursecatcher in the deck because it is god awful after turn 2. The problem is that there isn’t an effective solution, in a creature, to fill this slot. There is no other creature that I am aware of that can fill the tempo role that Cursecatcher provides. Curesecatcher is even worse when you do not have a Null Rod in play. Thus, your lack of 4 Null Rods could reflect on your dissatisfaction with Cursecatcher.

Have you tested cursecatcher with the full 4 stifle? I really like him. If you run  1-2 lftl and/or trygon predator, it gives him some staying power as well.

I was never happy with 4 Stifle. It was only good game 1 when an opponent would play into it. The reasoning behind my distaste for a full compliment of Stifles was that good players realize you are playing fish and can play around Stifle. Curescatcher + Null Rod + Wastelands + Thoughtseize have been effective in my testing.

@ Life from the Loam. This card was god awful in testing. I would love to hear your experiences with this card. Don’t take this as an insult. I am just curious to know your experiences with it and what you cut from the maindeck to include LftL.

Tri-gun Predator is the absolute ballz. We can all agree on this one.

And until TPS comes strongly back, I agree with running less than 4 Cursecatchers.

Have you ever played against a Tezzeret Deck? It is like casting Time Walk for one U.

The weakest slots in BUG fish have been the Negate/Mana Leak and Bounce slots. There isn’t really a good hard counter that can fill this. I have tested Remand, CounterSpell, Daze, more Duress effects, etc…. and have had sub-par results. I know that the deck needs some sort of bounce spell, but Echoing Truth has been pitched to Force of Will more times than I have cast it. Empty the Warrens is no longer played so I have cut ET from my list. This probably seems awful, but if your opponent is casting Tinker into a big dude you are already losing.

[SimonCopp]

ThaGunslinga R.E your list, could you talk me through your sideboarding strategy against various decks?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Oath:
-3 Rod
-3 Catcher
-1 Underground Sea
-1 Mox Pearl
-1 Tarmo
-1 Confidant

+2 Volcanic Island
+4 Krosan Grip
+4 REB


vs blue decks without Time Vault (do they exist?)
-3 Rod
-1 sea
-1 bayou
-1 something random
+4 REB
+2 Volc


vs aggro
+3 Sower
-3 Rod

vs Fish or some blue aggro
-3 Rod
-1 bayou
-1 Sea
-1 Stifle
-1 Negate
-1 FoW
-1 Cursecatcher

+2 Volc
+4 REB
+3 Sower

vs Shop decks without lots of Rod targets:
-3 Rod
-1 Seize
+4 Krosan Grip

vs Shop decks with lots of Rod targets (Ravager, Trike, equipment, etc)
-3 Cursecatcher
-1 random card
+4 Krosan Grip

and vs Blue Shops
+4 Krosan Grip
+4 REB
+2 Volc
-1 Sea
-1 Pearl (you NEVER cut green sources vs a wasteland deck)
-3 Rod
-3 Catcher
-2 random; maybe 1 stifle 1 seize, or 1 seize 1 negate


Vs Tez and Long you don't really need to sb; your main is already set for them, but I like bringing in the REBs anyway to clear out Threads and Sowers.  You can board out two lands and a couple random cards like 1 catcher, 1 FoW, 1 Negate, 1 Stifle or something like that; it's up to you.  You can also thin out the Goyfs or you can cut Trygons vs Long; they're not really going to be that relevant.


The E Plagues are there for Goblins and Elves, depressingly enough.  If you don't need them, don't run them.

[Sean Ryan]

I like how you are able to side in REBS, but you have basically conceded the Ichorid match, something I can't afford to do.  I have been thinking how to improve my bad match ups while still retaining the decks strengths against Drains and Storm combo.  I think the answer may be to borrow a page from the Faeries play book. 

Fish meets Faeries

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Rod
4 Duress
3 Bitterblossom
3 Diabolic Edict
4 FoW
3 Stifle/Daze???
3 Recall/Walk/Brainstorm

22 Mana Sources
4 MoxLotus
5 Strip/Waste
3 Sea
2 Trop
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
5 Fetch

SB
6 Ichorid Hate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Jitte
2 open slots

The Faeries package gives you Sprite, Clique, and Bitterblossom over Cursecatcher, Negate, and Trygon Predator.  Clique has been amazing and I would throw him in every Fish deck I play from now on regardless of the other faerie cards.  Cursecatcher always felt suboptimal but I wanted another blue creature that disrupts which got me thinking about the Faeries. 

Interestingly enough I got here by trying to splash white to fight the second tier decks with Swords, MMage, and Canonist.  The deck needed the blue dork to keep enough cards for Force and a way to deal with a resolved colossus besides the lone echoing truth.  But trying to add a fourth color was just too much strain on the mana base.  I realized I could accomplish these goals with the Faeries and Edict as a replacement for StP. 

By making these changes I improve my matches against the 2nd tier while giving up very little against Drains and Rituals.  My mirror match and the Workshop match significantly.  Bitterblossom is an absolute house here.  With both KGrip and Edict my Oath match is also improved.  I need to play more games against Tezz and TPS to see if I'm giving up too much but I doubt it as the deck retains all of it's central cards while giving up things that work on the edges in these match ups.

My apologies if people think this deserves it's own thread.  I have no problem starting a new one if this is too different.

Thanks
Sean   

[Nehptis]

I think your list may need a new thread.  It's more Faeries than BUG.  But, still I feel the need to make this point in general to all Fish strategists of all colors.

1) Let's not even mention STP anymore.  It's dead.  This card is far superior: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=179235

2) In that same line of thought.  If your Fish deck runs Blue, then SB or Main I think Curfew > Edict.  Both avoid Shroud creatures.  The downside to Edict is that a DSC or Prot will get reshuffled, meaning it could come out again, especially vs. Oath.  But, with Curfew it sits idle in their hand.  Which as we know is very annoying in a 1 x Brainstorm era.

[FadeToBlack]

1) Let's not even mention STP anymore.  It's dead.  This card is far superior: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=179235

That's a pretty bold and, I feel, inaccurate statement. Giving someone a free land drop is not ignorable by any means

[mgouthro]

I think your list may need a new thread.  It's more Faeries than BUG.  But, still I feel the need to make this point in general to all Fish strategists of all colors.

1) Let's not even mention STP anymore.  It's dead.  This card is far superior: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=179235

2) In that same line of thought.  If your Fish deck runs Blue, then SB or Main I think Curfew > Edict.  Both avoid Shroud creatures.  The downside to Edict is that a DSC or Prot will get reshuffled, meaning it could come out again, especially vs. Oath.  But, with Curfew it sits idle in their hand.  Which as we know is very annoying in a 1 x Brainstorm era.

1) I tend to disagree. I've used STP to avoid losing games to Tendrils decks via targeting my own creature. It's a handy little surprise that works on occasion. Also, given some Fish strategies are about mana denial, giving them an extra land drop would seem to be counter productive for those.

2) Because none of those decks like Oath might run cards like Thirst for Knowledge or Lat-Nam's Legacy (at least in a one-of)? I think you overvalue this bounce spell. People jumped all over Curfew at SCG Rochester when the Simic Sky Swallowers were coming in from the board  from pretty much all of the Oath decks there. It didn't really do much then either. I think that most Oath players will tell you they win an overwhelming majority of the time Oath resolves and is activated. Hence, play spells to prevent that from happening. Just a thought...

[Qube]

Truth, Oath have to be destroyed before an activation. but if you scared about that matchup, just play mb&sb 3 Trygon&4 Krosan Grip. That reach. Ah and take mulligans if neccessary.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Cards like Curfew and Edict are terrible because they don't deal with the Oath, just with the guy.  And honestly, Curfew?  Against a deck that usually plays Chalices (damn well should be, at least)?  Nuke the Oath, because when they trigger it, they'll be untapped, and I seriously doubt your Curfew/Edict/whatever will resolve.  And if it does, it probably won't matter.

[SimonCopp]

I'm a bit confused as you mention cutting Pearl and it isn't in your list. Regardless, thanks for the advice. I don't think the Engineered Plagues are that bad. It's a solution to problem matchups and it may have some splash value against Ichorid (not much though, granted).

[Tha Gunslinga]

I'm a bit confused as you mention cutting Pearl

Sorry, I usually run the 5 off-color Moxen, and I'm used to cutting them to fit more SB cards in.  I used to do that with Oath all the time.  Instead of cutting Pearl, just cut something random then.  1 Catcher, 1 Stifle, 1 FoW maybe.

[SimonCopp]

I assume that's also part of the reason you prefer 3 Null Rods. It does seem a lot hawter with the three predators in the main and the three and four mana sideboard cards too. Out of curiosity, what would you replace the Plague with if you were inclined to?

[Nehptis]

Cards like Curfew and Edict are terrible because they don't deal with the Oath, just with the guy.  And honestly, Curfew?  Against a deck that usually plays Chalices (damn well should be, at least)?  Nuke the Oath, because when they trigger it, they'll be untapped, and I seriously doubt your Curfew/Edict/whatever will resolve.  And if it does, it probably won't matter.

Gun is correct here on the Oath strategy.  He's stated it before and it works. That is, don't let Oath resolve, if it does, attack the Oath before it triggers.  My point is that if you also want a backup plan IN CASE Oath does trigger, then Curfew > Edict.  I don't like having to scoop after a single Oath trigger.  Especially, vs aggro Oath.  Back in the Tyrant Oath days, a single activation usually meant GG.  But, it doesn't have to mean that today vs Hellkite/Proto Oath.

EDIT wanted to acknowledge this post:

2) People jumped all over Curfew at SCG Rochester when the Simic Sky Swallowers were coming in from the board  from pretty much all of the Oath decks there. It didn't really do much then either.

SSS is hugely different from Hellkite and Proto which Oath seems to be using today.  SSS is very hardcastable.  Kite and Proto, not so much.

Re: STP and Path to Exile.  If we exclude Oath targets.  99.9% of the time your target will be DSC.  IMO, I'd rather give my opponent a Basic Land than 11 more life thereby extending my already slow Fish clock a few additional turns.

There's no denying the trickery you can do with STPing your own creature as was noted in another post.  But, I don't see that being a high probablity need that would supercede my other reason for using Path vs. STP.

[mgouthro]

My point is that if you also want a backup plan IN CASE Oath does trigger, then Curfew > Edict.  I don't like having to scoop after a single Oath trigger.  Especially, vs aggro Oath.  Back in the Tyrant Oath days, a single activation usually meant GG.  But, it doesn't have to mean that today vs Hellkite/Proto Oath.

I understand your point. My point is that I'm not going to mess up my main deck by playing substandard options IN CASE the good cards that I run can't handle my opponent's strategy. I mean, hey, let's splash white to get Ray of Revelation while we're at it. Why don't I run a Painter's Servant as well, so I can run REBs to blast Oath as well? Sure that may be completely over the top, and that's the point. I don't feel like Curfew is in any way, a good card to run as you are already losing the game at this point.

SSS is hugely different from Hellkite and Proto which Oath seems to be using today.  SSS is very hardcastable.  Kite and Proto, not so much.

And the point still stands. The Oath decks didn't run just one SSS at SCG Rochester. If Oath was activating, you were losing the game most of the time. By the time they had enough mana to cast SSS, it meant that you should be winning the game and they were desperate.

Re: STP and Path to Exile.  If we exclude Oath targets.  99.9% of the time your target will be DSC.  IMO, I'd rather give my opponent a Basic Land than 11 more life thereby extending my already slow Fish clock a few additional turns.

There's no denying the trickery you can do with STPing your own creature as was noted in another post.  But, I don't see that being a high probablity need that would supercede my other reason for using Path vs. STP.

Of course, there is a trade off, but it's not something that I see as so bad in comparison. It's not like Fish decks are just running 1- and 2-power creatures anymore. Tarmogoyf, Jotun Grunt, and Master of Etherium give Fish decks a much faster clock. The extra life doesn't seem like as much of a deal as it did a few years back. However, given that mana denial is a frequent component of Fish decks, ramping up their mana also has a negative trade off. I guess it depends on the style of Fish deck you are trying to build. Point being, STP is nowhere near a dead card and completely replaced by Path to Exile.

[Twaun007]

I am going to chime in here for a bit.

Adding white for Path to Exile/Swords to plowshares is garbage. The mana base of BUG fish is already pushed to the limits. Seriously, look at it. I would not run anything white without seriously revamping the deck.

BUG fish has a problem with aggro, we know this. Bug fish is a deck designed to combat a certain archetype. It is not designed to combat aggro at all. The more you try to fix this matchup, the weaker BUG fish becomes to the meta it was designed to combat. It also just happens that Oath receives splash hate from the true intentions of the deck, Drains, TPS, and anything blue that <3's artifacts. Dragon also gets hit by the splash hate(Thank god. You can ask Moxlotus about MTG worlds if you are wondering).

I think many people are looking for solutions that answer situations that should never occur during a match. If you opponent is able to cast Tinker, Yawgmoth's Willennium, or resolve an Oath trigger you're in a losing position.

The strengths of BUG fish accumulate through Null Rod, Cursecatcher, Stifle and Wasteland. Without these the tempo role is gone. The Goofus and Bob the Builder are only there to put the nail in the coffin during the match.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I think this list might actually be able to deal with Aggro through the strength of Counterbalance-Top in the main, as well as 4 Smothers sb.

Benjamin Carp
Team ICBM
Nautilus

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trygon Predator
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Volcanic Island
4 Smother
3 Oxidize


I may play it today; we'll see how it works out.

I'm pretty sure that even without Rod and Catcher you can beat combo and Tez, simply because the rest of the deck is strong enough, and Oath should be a bye.  Just cut 3 Daze and 1 Stifle for 4 Krosan and you should be set.

[Mantis]

@Tha Gunslinga:
What made you decide to drop Null Rod for Counterbalance/Top? I was under the impression the majority of the Vintage players actually agreed that Null Rod is very good right now. Also, how did Daze perform?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Daze is absolutely amazing.  Everyone walks into it.  CounterTop was just something I was testing; it's ok, but I'd have to work on it more.  Null Rod is fine for a more Control/Combo-oriented metagame, I just really don't like it, and I've never found it to be that necessary.  The SB has absolutely no Ichorid hate, which was a mistake.  I would cut the Smothers or the Volc/REBs for maybe 2 Pithing Needle and 2 Tormod's Crypt to deal with Ichorid.  Main I would go -5 CounterTop, +1 Lotus Petal, +1 Dreadnought (so you can tutor it up if necessary) and +3 Rod maybe.

[Nehptis]

I think your changes make alot more sense:

Fish must play Null Rod at the moment.  It's a mistake not to.
I agree with your Ichorid package.  I run similar with 2 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Yixlid Jailer.
Naught...it could work.  I'd love to play Tinker/DSC instead.  But, we can't/shouldn't with Bob's.

Basically, you are inching back to the original BUG Fish deck. Except for no Cursecatchers and the inclusion of Daze.  I really like Daze and think that it will be a mainstay in BUG.  As you say players walk into it frequently.  However, I think Turn 1 Catcher is a strong play.  Especially, now that we are playing Daze.  I run 2 Predators, 3 Stifle, no Ruby and no VT to make room for a 1st Turn Catcher (x4).

[Euphonic]

Hey Guys. Sorry to necro an old thread but i didnt feel it was necessary to create a new one in order to ask my question. If im wrong i apoligize in advance and will create a new thread when instructed to. Anyway, i have been playing BUG for a while now and i think that its really starting to click for me. Im starting to make the correct plays at the correct times and have been reasonably successful with it. All of my testing so far has been non sideboarded games because i havent created a sideboard yet. Many sideboard options have been discussed here and i have been closely considering all of them. I wanted to get a bit more input on what you guys would suggest for sideboard options in my meta in preparation for the tournament in two weeks. The meta in my area is very diverse. I expect to predominantly see fish and other aggro strategies, there will be a few Tez, Oath and stax. i most assuredly will see Ichorid as well.

These are the cards im considering so far.
Krosan Grip
Oxidize
Sower of Temptation
Threads of Disloyalty
Relic of Progenetus
Tormods Crypt
Smother
Pithing Needle
REB

How many should i play of each? What are the pros and cons of each? Are there any possibilities that ive overlooked?
I have discussed these options with my playtesting group and i was hoping to get some input from the memebers of this forum. I have a lot of respect for many of the players who post here and your input would be greatly appreciated.

[GRIMACE]

These are the cards im considering so far.
Krosan Grip
Oxidize
Sower of Temptation
Threads of Disloyalty
Relic of Progenetus
Tormods Crypt
Smother
Pithing Needle
REB

First of all, Jitte should certainly be in that list.  An active Jitte puts you ahead of whatever aggro match you are facing, period.  When I run fish, I usually include it as a 3-of in the board.

I'm not sure how scared of Ichorid you are, but I know some people on these boards advocate 8 slots dedicated to that archetype.  While I believe that depends on how often you are expected to see it, I do think that at least 6 cards are necessary.  I like Relic and Extirpate, but it seems everyone's tastes are different.

If you're willing to splash red for REB, go for it.  Personally, I'm much happier with the white addition as it gives access to maindeck Meddling Mage and many more sideboard options.  White also strengthens your oath matchup considerably with Ray of Relevation.  White also has Serenity for stax, which seems quite good on paper.

[GRIMACE]

I like Relic and Extirpate...

I meant Relic and Jailer.