BUG Fish - Innovating Null Rod strategies in Vintage

[waywreth]

Personally my record vs. Dredge is 2-1 overall.  Of course I've played 2 fairly new players to Dredge and 1 veteran player.  I lost to the better player, although that match went to game 3, and we were both in single digit life totals.  Considering that you will typically side out the Null rods, using a relic or two instead of jailers is a viable option.  My method of playing it, is to save my counters for the dredge players enchantement/creature removal.  It's an uphill battle for them in games 2 and 3 if you're able to get a jailer and/or leyline down early.  Otherwise, you're probably going to lose.

[FadeToBlack]

As by request..Ill share my experiences. First, a decklist:

// Lands
    2  Flooded Strand
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    4  Polluted Delta
    3  Underground Sea
    1  Bayou
    3  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4  Cursecatcher
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Null Rod
    3  Thoughtseize
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Negate
    1  Echoing Truth
    2  Duress
    2  Stifle
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 2  Trygon Predator
SB: 1  Krosan Grip

To address the dredge issue, as that seems the most discussed atm, and because I've played that deck to a fair amount of success. I realize Waywreth beat Dredge g1, but thats due to the fact that he probably faced an inexperienced pilot who didn't mull to Bazaar. To put it simply, you have 0 game against Dredge g1. Your only real hope is a) mull to Wasteland or b) Cursecatcher away their Bridges. Any competent Dredge pilot won't let this happen.

As such, you need 7-9 cards to guarantee the win. Make sure you diversify your threats, and not just a 4/4. Leyline is the most powerful card because they can't do anything with it in play. Jailer is probably next, and then stuff like Needle or Crypt. Dredge has no problem plowing through one piece of disruption; once you get two down, though, their in trouble. In my experience, these games are quite favorable. Not only do you side out all your crap for real answers, but you provide maindeck issues, such as Wastes, Stifle, Etruth, Catchers, and Tutors. Mulling to Leyline is not necessary, but keeping a hand of Lands and Goyfs aren't going to get you there either. I look for at least one piece of Dredge-specific hate (9 cards, you should have one), and hopefully some secondary backup tool (a tutor, a maindeck support card listed above, etc).

I typically side:
-4 Null Rod
-3 Thoughtseize
-3 Negate
+4 Leyline
+3 Yixlid Jailer
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Darkblast

NullRod and Negate are auto out. You keep force because you don't need mana open to counter things, making it far superior. Thoughtseize is much worse than your Duress because it takes life, and if they don't have a spell, you may pitch one of their dredgers for them. Darkblast is brought in because you can kill men before they get a Bridge, and killing your own Confidant is often a decent play, removing bridges and keeping you alive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as personal experiences, especially against aggro, that someone asked about:

Traditionally, this matchup is pretty horrendous. However, you have this guy called Tarmogoyf, who happens to be the biggest, baddest mofo around. Land yours and keep theirs off the board and this matchup is yours. This is precisely what happened g1 against RG, as I got my man down and he had to fight it out with Fanatics and Tin Streets, who just don't compare. I have yet to really play the UW matchup much, as it seems almost outdated by this deck, but Swords is a little scary. The biggest thing to note about this deck is that you don't pack removal, so countering Goyfs (the only men who can stop yours) is a must. G2 is all about Threads. If this deck becomes seriously popular, however, I would switch to Sowers, as they are more difficult to handle in the mirror (threads can be killed with Trygons).

I think I sided like this:

+2 Threads
+1 Darkblast
+2Trygon Predator
+3Yixlid Jailer
-4 Null Rod
-2 Negate
-2 Duress

Yea yea yea, I brought in Jailer. But I'm pretty sure my opponent was only playing Lightning Bolts for spells (along with Null Rod, which he sided out). So what good is Duress or Negate? I'd rather have my men...

Hopefully this has provided some insight..

MOD EDIT - please don't put that many continuous characters in a row without a space so that you have to scroll sideways (I took some out).  thanks.

Dante

[Sean Ryan]

The issue isn't Dredge.  It's Dredge, plus Oath, plus Shops, plus anything resembling the mirror.  It's not being able to compete vs the entire 2nd tier even if you have a good percentage vs TPS and Drains.  This has always been the weakness of Fish, but this particular blend is especially vulnerable to it, despite the inclusion of Tarmogoyf.   

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the deck and have been playing similar variations since before Gencon.  If I lived in New England I would definitely play it, but out here in the Northwest our metagame lacks the density of skilled players that choose good decks with Drains or Rituals, so I probably won't play it again. 

You need a minimum of 6 cards to beat Ichorid,and thats cutting it close, but you also need 4x Krosan Grip to beat Oath.  That leaves you with 5 slots to deal with Shops and any form of aggro.  To have enough space to accomplish this you must have main deck answers to shore up your weak match ups.     

If I was to run Ubg again I think I would main deck some of the hate to make room in the SB.  Beyond the core 52 cards I would run the following:

2 Sower of Temptation
2 Negate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast

SB
4 Leyline Void
3 KGrips
3 threads
3 Flux
2 Jailer

[maatn]

@FadeToBlack & Sean Ryan: Thanks for posting!

Your experiences will definitively guide my testing and fine-tuning.

I'll keep you guys informed on my progress. Tourney is coming soon...

[ErkBek]

Awesome job FadeToBlack. Thanks for posting all that too.

The issue isn't Dredge.  It's Dredge, plus Oath, plus Shops, plus anything resembling the mirror.  It's not being able to compete vs the entire 2nd tier even if you have a good percentage vs TPS and Drains.  This has always been the weakness of Fish, but this particular blend is especially vulnerable to it, despite the inclusion of Tarmogoyf.   

You need a minimum of 6 cards to beat Ichorid,and thats cutting it close, but you also need 4x Krosan Grip to beat Oath.  That leaves you with 5 slots to deal with Shops and any form of aggro.  To have enough space to accomplish this you must have main deck answers to shore up your weak match ups.

Isn't that how all formats work? One deck beats another, other decks beat others. No one deck beats everything.

4 Grips needed to beat oath? Really? I haven't played the matchup, but I don't think it's that bad....

[Sean Ryan]

Isn't that how all formats work? One deck beats another, other decks beat others. No one deck beats everything.

True.  I got the dreaded round 1 aggro pairing and thats just bad luck.  Like I said before, if half the  meta or more is a diversified mix of tier 2 this deck is probably the wrong choice as you are really rolling the dice for round 1.  While no one deck should beat evey thing, you should be able to address all relevant match ups with your sideboard.  The presence of Ichorid makes that very difficult, hence the idea to main deck some needed answers.

4 Grips needed to beat oath? Really? I haven't played the matchup, but I don't think it's that bad....

I tested this match a ton, and to consistently beat Oath I needed to be able to find a Krosan Grip ASAP.  Yes, you have other ways of dealing with them but they are mostly a wash.   If an Oath sticks I had  one bounce spell, 2 Tutors and 2 Sower of Temptation, my MVP of the day.  4 Mana is a lot in this deck but the Sower gives you another way to overcome large threats such as OAthed fatties and the common plan against Fish, Tinker-Colossus   

Another solution for the Oath Match is to run Diabolic Edicts, which can play double duty against the mirror and aggro.  Not ideal but it could help to save space.

This variation of Fish is my favorite in the abstract, I just don't play in the ideal environment.  However, as the meta appears to be shifting to a larger aggro  role some changes may need to be made.

[ErkBek]

BUG Fish put up another impressive performance this weekend taking 2nd place at a +50 man tournament in The Netherlands. More info to come.

[Marske]

@ErkBk
It actually took first place with slaver being second (I'll post the top 8 decklists and other info this week)

[maatn]

So that would be me than... I still find it somewhat hard to believe that I've just won a Mox.
ErkBek thanks for the list and to all others, thanks for the info on playing this list. I'll try to make something out of my notes that is worth posting.
BUG Fish is a great list, that just fits perfectly in todays meta. Besides that, I it is super fun to play!

[Marske]

@maatn
Yup that would be you haha Congrats again on the finish I saw the list play a couple of times during the tournament and I think you are right about it fitting today's meta completely. I'm looking forward to playing and facing this deck.

(Sorry for the bit off-topic post)

[serracollector]

I didn't read all 4 pages, just the first and last, but, I just recently wrote a thread about bringing back smurfs ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36735.0 ) and was told in my first comment to explain how it was better than BUG fish (which I had not read about til now).  I find myself glad that at least I chose a ""close" deck type, which showed me Im not too out of the loop (especially since I haven't played in a t1 tournament since like 2005-6 lol).  Anyways I digress.

1 suggestion
Withered Wretch

It would solve the problem of more creatures, since many complain 12 is too few.
It would help vs. Ichorid, Dragon, Oath etc. etc.
It would help vs. Yagmoth's Win.

Otherwise the deck looks great, and after reading this thread, I can see how BUG fish just might be better than Smurfs, but Im working on it.  I think in the current meta, with its major lack of burn (other than the random Mountain Win deck) that Negator and Grunt can be just as good, if not better than Goyf.  We shall see.    Good job and good deck tho.

[maatn]

1 suggestion
Withered Wretch

It would solve the problem of more creatures, since many complain 12 is too few.
It would help vs. Ichorid, Dragon, Oath etc. etc.
It would help vs. Yagmoth's Win.

Withered Wretch has one problem, it costs  . In most games I played last sunday at Breda, I found myself looking at 3 or 4 lands max. Playing it 'fishy' means wasting opponents lands early on. On turns 2 or 3, the time you drop a 2mana creature, it better be a powerfull creature that can take care of itself and doesn't require you to keep mana open. The semi-quarter-finals I played against Ichorid, I really wouldn't have liked a Wretch instead of Jixlid Jailer...brrr..
But if you have other experiences with Jailer / Wretch, please let me know! On paper Wretch is indeed more powerful, since it attacks a broader range of archetypes.

I think in the current meta, with its major lack of burn (other than the random Mountain Win deck) that Negator and Grunt can be just as good, if not better than Goyf.  We shall see.    Good job and good deck tho.

I've played Jötun Grunts in 'the new meta' last month in Holland, and I didn't like them. Grunts just don't beat as hard as Goyfs do and aren't as reliable i.m.h.o. Against a smart opponent, Grunts are as useful as Mystic Remora: your opponent can just wait a few turns, take some pain and win. Especially TPS-based decks (i.e. decks that can win when they are really low on lives in just one turn) I found harder to kill with Grunts than with Goyfs.

I might see Negator as a possible beatstick, although Negator doesn't seem to improve your basic aggro match up. One blocker means your Negator is a potential one-sided Cataclysm.

I'll definitively check out your list and post some remarks there.

edit October 17th:I've posted my notes from the Dutch Vintage Tournament in Breda from last Sunday, here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36745.msg511100#msg511100.

[Lancelot]

Hi guys on the manadrain, it's my first post here, but I'm a long time fallower of the site: awesome forum by the way

I've been very interested by BUG fish since M. Becker first posted it here. I decided to give it a shot, even if I wasn't sure that it would perform well here in the meta (Quebec city). Oath, suicide and aggro are played here, and I didnt liked my chances against those archetypes.

But the deck was great to me all day long! It was a 50+ players tournament and I played against Oath, Time control, Bomberman (another favorite here in Quebec meta) and Aggro shop during the swiss (I was first after 4 rounds, being 4-0, and finished third after two ID).

In top 8 I first faced Time control again (same guy I faced in swiss), then a dawn of the dead like deck in top4 (bazaar, duress, reanimate effets with titan n' platinum angel and finally Ugo Rivard in final (slaver tezz). I lost in final due to some play mistakes, but mostly from overall better draws // skills from my opponent.

I was amazed by the deck, very nice list M. Becker. I too, like maatn I think, played a singleton Trygon instead of vamp tutor and was very pleased by the results. Cursecatcher and waste were MVP (honorable mention to strip, wich I drew like 7 times ).

I liked the Grip's from side and the other trygon alot. It's a very fun deck, it adapt itself to various situations and opponents... I think it deserve a lil more respect!

Well, it's not that much details because I didn't take notes, but I hope it proves one more time that the deck is good. Sorry for my english, its not my first language!!

[ErkBek]

Nicely done Lancelot!

Due to the recent performance, I think its safe to say that BUG Fish is tier 1. BUG Fish is consistently making top 8's despite being wildly unrepresented by tournament goers as a whole.

I'm liking the switch from Vamp to Predator in the maindeck. It seems counter intuitive to cut a Tutor for a 1-of, but I think that's acceptable in tempo based strategies. This deck isn't really solution based, it's tempo based. Also, in cutting a black card for a blue card, would could theoretically cut a Negate for another Duress effect. Not sure that's best, but something worth thinking about.

Sorry for my english, its not my first language!!

Your English is excellent. Please continue to post in this thread.

[Twaun007]

I played BUG Fish for the first time at the Meandeck Open last week. I have to admit I was quit impressed with the decks overall performance. After playing the deck I have come to these conclusions.

With the absence of Workshops and Oath in my meta I have switched out the Trygon Predators for 2 Dimir Cutpurse. In testing the discard/card draw from Cutpurse has been the nutty Mcflush. My updated creature package is....

4 Cursecatcher
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoofus
2 Dimir Cutpurse

I am seriously debating on whether or not to cut the Echoing Truth and or Vampiric Tutor from the main. Empty the Warrens is un-played and if Tinker into a big dudder resolves you're probably losing already. I'd probably replace them with Waterfront Bouncer, Negate, or more Stifles. The only options I see have to be blue since the support of Force of Will is already pushes to the limits.

[Lancelot]

I think the maindeck bounce is needed. I know it can be dead sometimes, but it's our only out against Titan or Platinum angel maindeck! Not to mention that sometimes you can just bounce a blocker and go lethal with your lil' dudes.

Still, if you are not facing Oath at all in your meta, it might be a good call.

As a side note, I don't know what is the problem with stifle: they were so good to me all day long! With all our disruption, I like them as complement, acting sometimes like Wastes #5 and 6 and sometimes like Time walk for  against oath. Stifle even saved my butt against a Duplicant while playing vs Aggro shop!!! Not to mention that it's good against storm based strategies and that your opponent will be forced to play around it even if you run only two copies!

As far as I'm concerned, Negate is a more debatable slot... I had to be tapped out more often than not to cast that critical Duress, Rod, etc. It's true however that, unlike Daze, it's usefull late game. I don't know what to think, you guys  have any suggestions ?   

[FadeToBlack]

I think the maindeck bounce is needed. I know it can be dead sometimes, but it's our only out against Titan or Platinum angel maindeck! Not to mention that sometimes you can just bounce a blocker and go lethal with your lil' dudes.

I'm pretty sure if someone is playing Titan against you, you've already lost. Note the weak manabase..

[waywreth]

I've never had the Stifles at the right time.  They've been dead cards in my hand every time I've drawn them, their purpose has been to pitch to FoW.  I've tried Annul, which worked out ok; I've tried Extract, which was terrible.  Next time I play the deck I'm planning to try Blue Elemental Blast.  Worst case they pitch to FoW...

FadeToBlack is exactly right.  If Titan hits the board, you've lost in almost all circumstance.  Even if you can remove it with Predator or bounce, recovering with no lands is almost impossible.

And now a mini report from this Saturday, where I played the deck to 9th place at the recent ELD Mox Event.
RD 1 - I beat Dragon round one, which sideboarded into Oath for games 2 and 3.  I won game one backed by the three wasteland, 1 stripmine draw.  Game two was a debacle - he had the turn one oath, I had no FoW in hand.  Game three was a pretty even match.  I was able to drop an early Bob and ride him to card advantage victory.
RD 2 - Round two was the matchup from hell - RGw aggro.  While playing Dan from Myriad is a blast, my only chance of winning is if he mulligans to oblivion (which worked game 2!).  I sided in every creature in my sideboard and still was behind the entire match.
RD 3 - Round 3 was against Dreadstill with Vintage cards added.  We split the first two games, and the third game, he topdecked the stifle with Trinket mage in hand.  I was unable to draw an answer.
RD 4 - Round 4 was a great matchup - Tezz control.  I locked him out with a mix of wasteland, strip mine, and Null Rod.  Null rod was the MVP in this match.  He managed to Tinker out DSK, but I had Echoing Truth sitting in my hand.
RD 5 - Round 5 was another Vintage Dreadstill player.  He never managed to get a Naught in play, and when I Negated his Standstill, followed by Krosan Grip on Factory gave me the win. 

Expecting artifacts, I changed the Vamp Tutor to a Predator and was happy the whole day to see it, and changed the sideboarded Darkblast to another Predator.

[SiegeX]

I've never had the Stifles at the right time.  They've been dead cards in my hand every time I've drawn them, their purpose has been to pitch to FoW.  I've tried Annul, which worked out ok; I've tried Extract, which was terrible.  Next time I play the deck I'm planning to try Blue Elemental Blast.  Worst case they pitch to FoW...

I'm really surprised that Extract was so terrible for you as it looks really good on paper.  The problem with stifle (especially if the opponent has already seen it) is that the opponent gets to decide when to go off and they can (and will) hold back resources to play around it.  Conversely, Extract puts the power in your hands by plucking DSC or YawgWill before the opp has time to get the counterwall up.  Both Extract and Stifle both suck donkey balls against aggro and fish, but Extract is never a dead draw vs any other deck whereas stifle can be.  At the very least, it has to be more relevant than BEB

Also, seeing how neither Extract nor Stifle really help the oath matchup, why not side in Gilded Drake over Sower of Temptation?  That extra 1U for Sower is not trivial for this deck, and are you really going to care they have a 3/3 Flyer when they are facing down their own DSC, Akroma or Hellkite? (I just realized if you stole Hellkite, it will be pretty useless when they flip over Akroma next turn). It also has the rare chance of stealing a 7/10 before you die, where as with Sower you are pretty much guaranteed to never play that after the Titan hits. 

[Liam-K]

Extract has been terrible every time it has ever surfaced in any deck, as far as I can tell.  It's a card and a mana for an insurance policy against one eventuality, played in a deck that revolves around effects mattering now, against decks that have ten billion branched descision trees of splendid victory.  It was consistently reported by pretty much everyone who ran a 1 tendrils long list that they had never lost a match to extract, and people running 2 tendrils or Gifts just thought it was funny.  Decks have only become less vulnerable in the meantime.

[Malkizid]

On Sunday I played at the College of Dupage.  There were only 14 people, but no lack of competition.  3 members of the 2008 Vintage champs were in attendance.  We played 4 rounds of Swiss cut to top 4.

Here is what I played...

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cursecatcher
1 Ohran Viper

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
4 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
1 Merchannt Scroll

1 Black Lotus
4 Mox Emerald, Jet, Sapphire, Ruby
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

SB
2 Pithing Needle
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maze of Ith
2 Trygon Predator
1 Extirpate


In the swiss I played 4 VERY different Tez decks.  The match up is very good vs. Tez and I went 3-1.  My opponents were Round 1 Brian Fischer, Round 2 Mike Solymossy, Round 3 Jimmy Mcarthy, Round 4 Danny Freidman.  My loss came from Soly.  His deck featured a lot of draw, coupled with him having Ancestral and Tinker early in both games.  Game ! he just out drew me even after i double Duress/Thoughtseized him.  Game 2, I was on the play and led with Cursecatcher.  He played Mox, land, Ancestral, and there my Catcher sat.  I managed to get Tarmo and double BOB on board.  But I could only get him to 1 life before he had stolen my Goyf and 1 of my BOBs.  He finds Sensei's Top a turn before my stolen Bob would have killed him.

I made top 4.  It was...
1.  Owen Turtenwald (ICBM) BUG Faeries w/Tarmogoyf and Chalice of the Void, no Null Rod
2.  John Donovan (GWS) BUG Fish
3.  (Me) Derek Wochinski (Team ICEHOLE) BUG Fish
4.  Jason Jaco (BHWW) Confidant Tez

Round 1 of top 4 I get the mirror match.  Going into the game I am very confidant, because I have made some favorable metagame choices with my deck.  In testing, the only decks that were giving me problems were other aggro decks, namely Jamison Bryant's WGR Zoo deck.  I thought it was very likely that Jamison would be at this tournament, so I decided that I would have to be able to beat him.  I main decked Ohran Viper, and Sided 2 Maze of Ith for the aggro match up. 

Game 1 of top 4.  I am on the draw.  I win ea sly with Stifles and Wasteland/Stripmine keeping him from casting anything, while I beat with Goyf and Bob. 

Game 2.  I take out 4 Cursecatcher, and 3 Null Rod.  In comes 2 Sower of Temptation, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Maze of Ith, and 2 Trygon Predator along with my already main decked Ohran Viper.  The game starts, and I get a Bob and Goyf on board only to see them stolen with Control Magic.  I never see any of my sideboard cards and lose. 

Game 3.  More of the same, never see a sideboard card.  Lose to my own dudes.  ]

John Donovan and Owen split the finals after Owen convinced him that it wasn't even worth playing, because Owen would crush him. 


Some observations on the deck I played....

4 Stifle.  This card is amazing.  It was never dead all day long.  Early game it acts as a Strip Mine.  The rest of the game it protects your mana base, and has so many other uses.  It can buy you the turn you need to drop Null Rod vs. Tez, Key, or Time Vault.  It stops Tendrils' Storm.  It stops the Dreaded Sundering Titain's comes into play ability.  I think it even stops Sower's from ripping off your creatures.  It will stop an Engineered Explosives at 2 from killing all your dudes.  The list goes on......I think the reason people haven't liked it in the past, is because they did not play 4 of them.  I love this card.

Mana Leak over Negate.  I figured with 4 Stifle, 3 Null Rod, 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, and 4 Cursecatcher to control the opponent's mana base, Mana Leak was better.  There was only 1 time when the difference came up all day.  It was when I Leaked a creature that negate would have just watched go by.  There was not a single time that Leak was dead in my hand.  I know it was possible, but it never happened this day.  There were plenty of times, late game, where my opponent was trying for a big turn to win because I had pressure on the board.  Mana Leak worked for me.

Ohran Viper and Maze of Ith.  Like I said, these were just metagame choices.  I did miss the Demonic Tutor that I had to cut.  Never saw the Maze, so I don't know if it was good or not.

Cursecatcher.  I didn't like him.  All day I wished he was a creature that would draw me cards.  People would see him and just play around him.  Anyone with a mox in their opening hand just didn't care about him.  Maybe I should put the 4th Null Rod back into the deck before I make a decision on him?  But I kept wishing he was something else...Cold-Eyed Selkie???

Overall I loved the deck and will continue playing it.  It won me an Unlimited Tropical Island.  I hope I have provided some good feedback on this deck.

[Lancelot]

Did you ask your opponents if cursecatcher actually slowed them down after each matchup? Because everytime I was not sure if he had been good or not, my opponent answered that he was bothered alot by this lil' guy!

I was not impress by Negate either, but I fail to see a situation where mana leak would have been better... Daze, for example, is almost strictly better in the first few turns... but is quite useless in the late game. Mana leak has not real advantage over Negate... It's not a hard counter late game and I would be suprised if you actually used it during your tournament to counter a creature! I mean, I prefer to counter a real threat like tinker or recall!

As for Demonic Tutor, it won me alot of games I had no business to win, it's an amazing card in the deck: I don't see myself cut it anytime soon.

I do agree with you as far as stifle is concerned: it's great in the deck, but I just consider the deck too tight to be able to fit in 2 more of them

[swawagon]

Derek:
I do think Cursecatcher is a little better than it may seem. Just because you don't use the ability doesn't mean it didn't affect the game. And just as you mentioned 4 Stifle Nulls and Wastes playing around it is not as easy it seems for opponents. They may have bought a lot more time than you could know. Also even in Green, Blue, or Black; I can't think of a more disruptive one drop that that can also do damage? We can think on it but nothing pops to mind.

Maze of Ith is pretty cool. Nice idea knowing the RGW Zoo deck doesn't run Wastes anymore making them much better.

I think you had the better deck for that semis mirror match, you just didn't get the cards... And I don't think cutting Demonic mattered because you had better cards for the match-up overall.

ICEHOLE!!

[Mith]

I played this deck during TravisCON today. I ran two Cutthroats maindeck, and two Trygons in the board. I cut Vamp Tutor.

I left the tourney with a record of 3-3....two of the top 8 were playing BUG Fish! The deck was a serious force to contend with in a field of Tez decks 

I lost two hard games to unbelievable mana screw...nothing I could do about that. I like the mana base as is, and wouldn't change it.

Stifles came into play only twice. Once to stop a waste, and once to stop a fetch. Otherwise, they were dead cards by mid-game, and only useful for Force-fodder.

If I played this deck again, I'd run Trygons maindeck (everyone who played this deck today agreed that they were MVPs), and I'd cut the stifles...perhaps for two more negates? I'm not sure, but I do know that I don't like the stifles.

[Beatdown]

If you are looking for more game vs dredge ground seal is an interesting choice. A two mana cantriping enchantment that turns off dread return as well as welders vs. slaver.

[FadeToBlack]

Ground Seal is particularly uninteresting for a few reasons. First, its an enchantment, which makes it inherently bad against much of Dredge's sideboard (Emerald Charm, Wispmare, etc0 as they are forced to overload on enchantment removal as an active leyline = lose. Secondly, the only thing it really does is shut off Dread Return. Even if you stopped them from killing you in one turn via FTK, you still have to deal with Ichorids and the Zombie hordes. On top of that, the Dread Return package is often sideboarded out, nullifying this card even more.

I suppose its ok versus Welders, but why not just play Tormod's Crypt? Its a much more flexible card, as its fine against combo as well. And if you don't want to play Crypt because you fear Chalice from Dredge, there's always Relic (also trips like Seal, though beafs down your Goyfs).

[Dr.KnowMaD]

I was thinking on trying this list out.  It looks solid, sound fun and has had good results, but first I had a couple of quick questions.

When ever I play aggro I have a hard time not playing my four seasons.  It was briefly mentioned and Mishra's Factory was given a nod, but what does that mean?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of leaving them out?

I have noticed people saying boo to the Stifles but in my times with them they were solid by messing with all sorts of opposing interactions and rarely ever dead if that.  For one Blue! And for one more colorless you get the shiz nito bam bito version.  When I first read the list I wanted to do three stifles and two negates (good tech by the way).

Has anyone used Extirpate in this?  Maybe the Stifle slot?

One more thing, has anyone had problems with Relic of Progenitus  slowing down Tarmogoyf? 

                                                                                                                              Dr.KnowMaD       

[FadeToBlack]

I was thinking on trying this list out.  It looks solid, sound fun and has had good results, but first I had a couple of quick questions.

When ever I play aggro I have a hard time not playing my four seasons.  It was briefly mentioned and Mishra's Factory was given a nod, but what does that mean?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of leaving them out?

I have noticed people saying boo to the Stifles but in my times with them they were solid by messing with all sorts of opposing interactions and rarely ever dead if that.  For one Blue! And for one more colorless you get the shiz nito bam bito version.  When I first read the list I wanted to do three stifles and two negates (good tech by the way).

Has anyone used Extirpate in this?  Maybe the Stifle slot?

One more thing, has anyone had problems with Relic of Progenitus  slowing down Tarmogoyf? 

                                                                                                                              Dr.KnowMaD       

The problem with the four seasons is your mana. Your already playing the full LD suite, and after that, really don't have a ton of room to fool around with without the risk that you might not be able to cast your spells. If I had the room, I'd probably play a basic before I could play a factory.

Stifle is a love hate thing. I find them to be just find, others hate them and swap them out for various cards. Try them out, and see how you feel with them.

Not a fan of extirpate in this format for the same reason that I don't like Cabal Therapy - restricted cards. Most of the time, you want to be ripping away the singletons, which Extirpate does none of. However, there are some matchups where it is particularly useful, and if your meta is infested with them, try it out.

And yes, Relic is a pain against Tarmogoyf. It sets you back a turn or two at least, and we all know that is plenty difference in the world of Vintage.

[DarkfnTemplar]

Has anyone used Extirpate in this?  Maybe the Stifle slot?
    

I've just been messing around with this on mws. I'm using the originally posted main with this sb:
4 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Seeds of Innocence
1 Oxidize
2 Echoing Truth

I'm not going to lie, I haven't played the seeds yet.

I feel that cursecatchers, thorns, wastes, and extirpates are enough. The stifle and fast clock are just icing on the cake.

Obviously I have no major answers to oath. I guess I have e truth and extirpates? Maybe this deck should be ran like SS 2.0 and play spell snare.

[FadeToBlack]

I really don't think 4 Extirpate and to a lesser extent 2 Echoing Truth is going to give you game against Dredge