The State of Control Slaver

[The Atog Lord]

On the State of Control Slaver

Haunted Echos recently sent me an excellent Personal Message in which he asked me about Control Slaver. Where is it in the metagame? Is it still a first-tier  deck? What issues need to be addressed for an optimal build? These are excellent questions, and questions which are worth exploring given the state of flux that the Vintage metagame is in right now. Therefore, rather than just respond to him in private, I've decided to write up my thoughts and share them here, in the hope of creating a good dialogue about my favorite Magic deck of all time.

Some Background

First off, if you have never read it, take a moment to read the Control Slaver primer. It's fairly old, but the basic ideas described in that document are still very relevant today.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=15900.0

To give an idea of how the deck looked when it was first seeing play, here is an early Control Slaver list which I used to win a Waterbury event back in 2005.

1 Platinum Angel
1 Pentavus
4 Goblin Welder
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Blood Moon
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
2 Mindslaver
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
5 Island

Sideboard:
3 Lava Dart
3 Old Man of the Sea
1 Mogg Salvage
1 Blood Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sphere of Resistence
1 Shattering Pulse

Control Slaver at the Vintage Championship

Without doubt, Brian DeMars and Jimmy have given us the finest Control Slaver performance in recent memory. They both made Top Eight at the Vintage Championships with Control Slaver running several new facets. Here is Brian's deck:

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Strategic Planning
1 Sol Ring
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Misdirection
1 Mindslaver
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mana Vault
4 Mana Drain
1 Mana Crypt
4 Force of Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Brainstorm
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Triskelavus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Welder
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Sideboard:
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thran Foundry
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
3 Wasteland

Looking at the two lists above, it is clear that Brian made some interesting changes. It is also clear, however, that the deck's core is unchanged. I know that some people call the above build "Strategic Slaver." However, adding Strategic Planning to the deck is not sufficient to change its name. It is Control Slaver, with a different cantrip added. To call it something else is only going to litter the Vintage landscape with yet another name for what is essential the same deck that has been seeing play for years. That is to say nothing to limit the accomplishment of Brian. He prepared an excellent deck for the field and played it well. I simply assert that the deck is Control Slaver.

Now, there are two primary innovations found in Brian's list. One of the innovations, and the more clever I believe, is the inclusion of a mana denial component. Control Slaver has had some mana denial for a long time -- see the Blood Moons in the first list. However, never has it been so thoroughly  incorporated into the build as in Brian's build. This is brilliant on Brian's part; he expected a metagame full of Storm Combo and devised the best counter to that strategy that I have yet seen in a Control Slaver deck. Aside from dominating Ichorid decks, the Mana Denial plan is the first means that I have seen of Control Slaver getting a fighting chance against its traditional worst match, quick combo.

The second innovation in Brian's list is Strategic Planning. And boy, was that exciting! I remember being really happy about how it would let Control Slaver dig better through itself, power up Yawgmoth's Will, and make Goblin Welder even better. I got my hands on three copies and couldn't wait to try them out. And then I ran them in a tournament. And I tested with them. And then I sold them in disgust. The sad truth is that Strategic Planning is not the best thing since sliced bread. It was a great move by Meandeck to catch unwary opponents off guard, and I do wish that I had played that deck at Vintage Worlds. Going  forward, however, I don't think know if it is going to be the right way to build Control Slaver. It might be, but Strategic Planning sure hasn't worked out for me in testing or in tournaments.

So, what is the problem that I have had with Strategic Planning? If you don't actually utilize the cards that you dump into the graveyard, it is strictly worse than Impulse. Impulse is an instant, which helps you to keep Drain mana open. Digging four cards deep is of course strictly better than digging three cards. And there are times that you'll see a card that you don't want to allow into the graveyard. If you're in need of a land, do you really want to let the Yawgmoth's Will that you've flipped go to the graveyard, never to be cast? Impulse lets you put it back into your deck, safe for a time when you'll actually be able to play it.

Now, if these were the only issues with the card, I'd be more inclined to like it. After all, its synergy with Goblin Welder can't be denied. However, it really opens you up to graveyard hate, and that is my main problem with it. In my metagame, more decks have some form of graveyard hate maindeck than not. Allowing Sundering Titan to fall into your graveyard may well mean that unless you already have a Welder in play, you won't be seeing that  Titan at all during the game. This situation has arisen too many times in testing and in playing for me to ignore. Losing a vital component of the deck to a  timely Tormod's Crypt was becoming a situation too common for me to be comfortable with Strategic Planning. I don't plan to run the card again.


The Problem with Control Slaver

To understand the current standing of Control Slaver, we need to examine its history one more time. When Control Slaver first emerged as a deck, the Vintage metagame was quite different than it is today. Archaic decks lumbered about the room, and Control Slaver was the fasted deck with any consistency in the format. Control Slaver worked on celerity; it could activate a Mind Slaver before Keeper or Psychatog could establish their defenses. This was before control decks were using combo kill mechanisms, and when Thirst for Knowledge was considered an inexpensive draw spell.

Everything has changed in the past few years. New decks have emerged which have left older archetypes in the dust. Control Slaver, once the fastest deck in  the format, is now the slowest first-tier deck. Yes, Stax might not end the game quickly, but it tends to wrap things up before Control Slaver. Ichorid, Long/TPS, Painter, Oath -- these decks all goldfish much more quickly than Control Slaver. In order to remain viable, then, Control Slaver must either speed itself up or be able to hinder the threats modern decks pose. The former option isn't viable. Attempting to make Control Slaver goldfish as quickly as Long leads to an unstable Mulligan-Fest.

The latter option, of making Control Slaver able to counter opposing threats and achieving a later victory, therefore becomes the only way to make the deck work consistently. In fact, that strategy is generally helped out because modern Vintage decks often have less robust draw engines than in days past. The plan of Control Slaver, therefore, becomes to drag an opponent into the mid to late game and then bury him there. Note how well Brian's latest deck achieves this. While I don't much care for Strategic Planning, I find the mana denial elements a perfectly valid direction for the deck. Cards like Wasteland and Sphere of Resistance make the game go on longer. And the longer the game goes on, the better things get for Control Slaver.

Another take on this is a Reflection build, which Demonic Attorney took to a top four split at a recent Myriad tournament. With Night's Whisper as the draw engine, and with Duress enabled by incorporating a larger amount of Black into the mana base, this build is better able than most to stay in the game and push things into the midgame. Rather than rely on card selection to filter out uncastable robots as Control Slaver has in the past, this build opts for more card quantity, thereby reducing the negative impact of drawing robots and more rapidly drawing into the critical mass of control spells required to hobble quicker decks. Here's the report which Chris and I wrote in which Chris recounts playing the deck.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36426.0


Conclusion

Control Slaver, as it currently stands, is a deck whose strategy is to use disruption to push an opponent into the midgame or lategame and then win once there through card advantage. Goblin Welder provides a strong answer to opposing counter magic, and the set of robots used enable Control Slaver to end a game quickly. Despite being a fairly slow deck at times, it remains perfectly able to end games in the first few turns with the right draw, and to leverage card advantage into a win very well. Control Slaver needs a way to make its sometimes clumsy draws become more effective, and it needs to be able to delay the opponent in a consistent and reliable way.

Both Duress and mana disruption can slow the opponent. In the first list above, Blood Moon does this. Perhaps Mystic Remora could accomplish a similar task. However it is done, this is a vital component of the deck's strategy. Long past are the days when Mana Drain and Force of Will are sufficient to do the job.

Control Slaver also needs a way to improve its hand. Because it lacks a combo like Painter, Impulse is fairly weak in the deck. Except for restricted cards, you seldom are trying to find a combo piece per se, and are instead often just looking to add cards to the hand. That's why Night's Whisper works, and under ideal conditions, Planning too, adding cards to the hand and the graveyard. There are likely other, yet undiscovered means to this end as well.

Finally, Control Slaver is a perfectly viable deck, whose optimal build is a function of the other decks in the format. Because the nature of threats changes and evolve, so too must the tools used by Control Slaver to respond to those threats.  As the metagame shifts so too must the build of a deck designed to answer the opponent. What remains the case, however, is that Control Slaver is a very powerful deck.

[Marske]

First of all let me say a great piece of writing Rich !

Second I think that the mana denial route (Sphere's, Thorns, CoW / strip) is indeed a great answer against combo and other decks. Maybe it's even possible to take both routes and incorporate more black in the maindeck for Duress, Night's Whisper and a mana denial sideboard including access to cards like Extirpate which also helps out a lot in different match-ups.

Also if you do not want to up the black mana sources in this deck the mystic remora plan like you suggested sounds pretty good, I would personally combine that with also putting Stifle, Spellsnare or Trickbind maindeck to handle combo and other things. Especially stifle is a card I can see doing great in a slaver build that doesn't want to go the duress plan, because this really shuts down so many strategies and helps deal with combo.

Control Slaver also needs a way to improve its hand.

Maybe the Night's Whispers together with some deck manipulation (Sensei's top) can provide some answers to finding solutions when you need them.

With the loss of brainstorm slaver (and other decks to) need to find some way of fixing card quality and this is something top + shuffle effects has been able to provide (not in the same way as brainstorm did but still). Combining this with draw from things like Night's Whisper and even LoA the slaver player could have enough gas to carry himself into the mid to late game where the deck wants to be.

I've included this deck list as a reference to give a possible way of dealing with this plan I've been working with this deck for quite some time now and have come to like the way the deck handles itself. The suggested sideboard options can be totally meta game depended off course.

Control Slaver By M. van Zundert

creature
2 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelavus

instant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst for Knowledge

sorcery
2 Night's Whisper
2 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sensei Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

land
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Stripmine
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Rack & Ruin
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Platinum Angel

What are your thoughts about all this Rich ? Is there a so called "optimal build" for slaver or does the deck need to adjust to what ever decks in the meta pose the biggest threat to the Control Slaver player ?

[Anusien]

I doubt it's good enough, but I figured I'd point out Omen, which is Ponder for .  Also, I know some people have turned to Portent as a substitute Ponder, since on yourself they're basically equivalent for a non-combo deck, and you can randomly screw your opponent too.  I also know how much of a fan you are of Lat-Nam's Legacy, but it can't dig for countermagic while also bluffing Drain.

[Xyre]

I'm actually quite interested by the suggestion of Mystic Remora. That's a card that would work rather well in this deck, I think. The largest problem with it of course is that it sometimes cuts you off your Mana Drain mana, which means it's not the best solution, but in terms of providing multiple turns of additional development, it's superb.

[marcb]

I'm really glad this is finally being discussed. I have been thinking a lot lately about how CS can be improved for the current Meta. I am really fond of the addition of mana denial to the recent control slaver lists. It really helps CS disrupt the opponent long enough to survive to mid/late game. I have also been hesitant about strategic planning because graveyard denial (ie T. Crypt, etc) has been quite popular lately. Normally, I would have thought about going straight back to Night's Whisper in Slaver, but try to incorporate the new mana denial strategy into the board and MD, but I'm afraid that with the loss of brainstorm, there isn't enough blue in the deck. This is certainly an arguable point, but I have been recently looking to see what kind of draw there is for blue that could replace Night's Whisper. Unfortunately, nothing gives the +1 card advantage of Night's Whisper in blue (except deep analysis once it's already in the GY), so I started asking myself why we want the extra card advantage in CS. As Rich points out, there really aren't any combos in the deck, so we aren't looking for a particular card. What we want is just enough control elements to survive. This lead me to conclude that if we couldn't find a blue card with +1 card advantage that we should look for one that provided +0 card advantage (cantrips) and at least provides a decent control element effect in addition to the cantrip. Finally, since I'm still not sure that Night's Whisper isn't the right choice for CS, I wanted to look for cards with similar casting costs (1-2 CMC).  I have come up with 2 cards so far, and I'm wondering what people think. The first is disrupt

Disrupt U
Counter target intant or sorcery spell unless the controller pays 1 more.
Draw a card.

This card has been used before in control decks, and although it gets worse in the late game, it might be good enough to help ensure said late game. The problem is that in order to ensure you get it early you need 4, which guarantees that you will see it later, when it's less relevent.

The next card I found was

Grip of Amnesia 1U
Counter target spell unless its controller removes his graveyard from the game.
Draw a card.

I had never heard of this card before, but it seems interesting. It's definitely a situational card, but it's great against many of the bombs in type 1. For example, against welder it might force them to choose between resolving the welder and removing the artifacts they were planning on welding, and it hard counters Y. Will. It could also lead to some intricate scenarios against TPS or Long, where they need to try and decide whether they need the spell or the graveyard more to go off. The downside to this card is that really early in the game it's useless. You could have the mana up by turn 1, but then it's an easy choice for your opponent to remove his nonexistant graveyard. Maybe this card would only be good if you survived to the mid or late game making it a situational win more type of card. I'm really not sure, but I wanted to mention some stranger card options than the more classical one's previously mentioned. It can't hurt to consider all of our options as we try to adapt CS to the new meta.

Anyway, I plan on testing with these cards, but if anyone has already tried them, I'd be curious to hear what you think. I didn't mention telling time, impulse, and peer through depths because these cards provide +0 card advantage (higher quality card since you choose from several), but do not provide any control role in addition to the cantrip effect.

If these cards prove to be too situational, then I think it will be hard to beat the shear card advantage of Night's Whisper.

Marc

[hauntedechos]

Rich,

Thank - You for this reply.  It brings up a few things that I was tinkering with and certain parameters of Slaver that I thought were outdated as well.  I was told by many that adding more  to Slaver was a terrible thing.  Of course if this was back in it's inception I would agree, however with the loss of Brainstorm brains must be re-wired.

Strategic Planning:  every time I've resoved this card, it's been a hard decision to make and I've never really enjoyed a play where it worked for me.  I think that if more top deck tutors or a critical amount of Tops were added, the stress may be eased.  At that point I think that requires more planning on the pilots part, when they really want to be focusing on the reacting to the game state.  I've long since fired SP (could be that I play it wrong, but it's fired untill further notice)

Night's Whisper:  This is the card that jumped out at me right from the go.  It has draw backs and forces you to run more  cards, however it's the basic premise that the card puts two cards directly into your hand w/o a huge draw back.  I understand that as a control player, you want to retain all the percentages that you are up on your opponent.  If all it asks is two life points from me, then it gets the nod.

Mana Base and  cards:  I've posted a few thoughts about cards that Control Slaver could stand to have included for a variety of reasons.  By enlarge I've been shot down and mainly on the whole " cards are bad for Slaver".  The additional argument is that it forces the pilot to crack a fetch for Sea, which leaves the Slaver pilot open to Wasteland.  While this is true, you are a Control player and should be able to manage your resouces accordingly.  Additionally, I've never cast a Night's Whisper unless the circumstances required me to (ie counter wars) and at that point I am nearing the mid game, where I should have already impacted the game sufficiently;  that is to say, when the loss of a Sea doesn't even matter or when I have no choice.

The aqddition of Duress main:  I am on the fence about this.  To get back to the above argument about cracking Fetches for seas and wastelands that ensue: Duress amplifies this conundrum.  Further it (as Night's Whisper already does) reduces the  count in a deck that always wants to have a spare  card kicking around for a Force in hand, or one that would be drawn / top decked.  My current thoughts on this are to include a number of Negates main instead.  Eric has it right when he included these over Daze main in his current list of BuG Fish and I for one will be following suit in Slaver.  The only other card that I think I would be including is Stifle.  To include Stifle main requires the Slaver pilot / builder to commit to the mana denial program to be 100% effective.  Is it decent on it's own? sure.  Why Negate?  because its a hard counter on turn one most of the time.  "yes but it's junk against Fish"  is it?  I wouldn't be so fast to say that as long as Fish and many other decks are running around with Null Rods and many other non - creature cards that = frown town for Slaver.  Besides, I thought that is why we include Trike or Trisk in our builds.

The Scurvy dog, or Entomb:  I will once again play the advocate for this card.  I realize that it is only good or even playable when you have an active welder or are planning a Yawg's Will.  When you do, it's absolute gold for it's casting cost.  It's also a mid to late game card as well that can put you in control of the game, or absolutly bury your opponent with another brown card that should be welded in.  It's already stated that Slaver isn't trying to race anyone, however the possibility of a turn 2 Trisk / Trike when playing against aggro decks seems pretty good to me.  " we can already do that with Tinker"  yes, yes you can, only for more mana investment and Entomb fires of earlier and as a last thought, it leaves your Tinker in the deck unmolested for later use and vice versa.  I won't get into any arguments over this, either try it and see how it works (since adding a few more  cards is suddenly acceptable) or don't.  Personally it has won no less than 4 games for me to date.


Haunted.

[hitman]

I don't think Mystic Remora is a viable option because it requires you to pay a cumulative upkeep.  How can you keep paying mana to keep it in play and still have enough mana up to be able to counter the spells your opponent is casting?  I think you'd need to play some number of Misdirections in the maindeck to make this strategy viable and multiple Misdirections suck in Slaver because it's situational and Slaver already has enough situational cards.  Night's Whisper sounds great, though.  I wouldn't be worried about having to Fetch out a Sea on the first turn.  Against an aggro-control deck, if they're Wastelanding you, they aren't playing spells.  That means that by the second turn, you'll be up two cards.  You gain one card from the Night's Whisper and your draw step.  Slaver plays more mana than aggro-control decks, too.  A stronger play for the aggro-control deck is to establish its draw engine, like Dark Confidant and attack the manabase on the second turn before Slaver's really gotten the ball rolling.  Slaver will be playing catch-up after that because the aggro-control deck can Duress, Wasteland, and Stifle Slaver all day as long as the cards keep coming. 

The only time a Slaver player should care if Workshop based decks are Wastelanding them on the first turn is if they follow it up with a Workshop on turn two or Academy with several artifacts in play.  Workshops are better off constricting your ability to play spells with cards like Spheres and Thorns than sacrificing land drops in the early game. 

Basically, there are few drawbacks to just drawing the two cards on the first turn.  In general, it would be a misplay for your opponent to Wasteland you that early to inhibit your ability to play spells at the cost of their ability to play their spells. 

I don't think Duress is a good maindeck card for Slaver.  It's one thing to Fetch for a Sea when you're getting two cards for it and another thing to Fetch for a Sea to look at your opponent's hand, possibly take a relevant card, and open yourself up to mana denial when you haven't dug into more mana yourself.  If you're playing against Shops or aggro-control, you may have just walked yourself into a sticky situation.  Duress is better in the sideboard for when you know what you're playing against.  Slaver has traditionally run permanent sources of disruption like Gorilla Shaman and Tormod's Crypt because you know exactly what you're getting with them.  Duress can whiff, Mana Drain and Force of Will can be out-countered or stripped from your hand,  but Gorilla Shaman will always restrict mana bases and Tormod's Crypt will always limit lines of play that revolve around the graveyard.

Entomb may be good in the situations you mentioned but that's not what Slaver needs.  Slaver doesn't need more cards for when it's looking to Will or weld in an artifact.  By that point, Slaver's already in a good position.  Slaver needs cards that get it to that point in the game.  Entomb doesn't help get Slaver to the mid-late game. 

[wox2]

I was playing CS in Italy tournaments during last few days.
My Version was this:
4 Fow
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mana Drain
2 Impulse
2 Duress
2 Tormod´s Crypt (at the first tournament 1 Crypt, 1 Crucible at the main event and team event 2 Crypts)
3 Sensei Divining Top
2 Night´s Whisper
2 Goblin Welder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawghmoth´s Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
5 Mox
4 Island (One strip mine first tourney main event 4 Islands)
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Stand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Volanic Island

Sideboard
2 Pyroclasm
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Thran Foundry
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Triskelion
1 Echoing Truth

At the first event I finished 11th with 4-1-1. I got really unlucky there because near all of my opponents I defeated dropped tourney and I was the last of nine 13 points players...
At the team Event I didn´t loose a match but my teammates lost three from their four games So we dropped after 1:2 team score.
At the main Event I got mana screw, colorscrew (have seen 3 basic Islands with three black cards in hand...), mana flood... I know there was much how to improve my playing and I stopped playing precisly after one game when I started with 3 Mox, Sea, Duress, Tinker, Tormod´s hand seeing with duress Null Rod, Kataki, Sword to Plowshares, Cursecatcher, Fetchland, Tundra, Stifle discarded Sword and after opponents Cursecatcher seen topdecked Force my Tinker. The Second game after Null Rod second Rod came... Total Score at event 5:4 and 109 place

For me and my two robot build is another option Arcane Denial instead of Night´s Whisper. I love Impulse all the time. Despite it not getting land after Ponder...

Three top may be too much. The second thing is that it slows game really much.

Strip Mine had no much use for me except against Workshop decks. Against Ichorid I Stripped Bazaar and my opponent returned it back by Putrified field immediately or was able to do his tricks. So I decided to play neither Crucible or Strip Mine... Against most of the field Tormod´s Worked better than Crucible... My bad in deckbuilding was to change Strip Mine for Island instead of Fetchland-four Islands was too much and I lost games for it...

[Marske]

@Haunted

The aqddition of Duress main:  I am on the fence about this.  To get back to the above argument about cracking Fetches for seas and wastelands that ensue: Duress amplifies this conundrum.

This is not entirely true, you only want to crack a fetch for a sea turn one against match-ups that normally don't run wastelands (combo) against other decks you can just board them out game 2 taking away the so called conundrum. You said it yourself with your reply on night's whisper

The additional argument is that it forces the pilot to crack a fetch for Sea, which leaves the Slaver pilot open to Wasteland.  While this is true, you are a Control player and should be able to manage your resouces accordingly.

With a meta that has loads of combo in it trying to delay the game plan to get into the mid to late game is something slaver players have got to do. I'm not sure about how slaver players are going to accomplish this (with more black cards like duress or with things like stifle's, mana denial) Thats the main reason why I proposed the deck list I posted before with main deck duress. (maybe maindeck stifle would be better)

[Smmenen]

I know that some people call the above build "Strategic Slaver." However, adding Strategic Planning to the deck is not sufficient to change its name. It is Control Slaver, with a different cantrip added.

Just as a note, and I really don't care about this sort of thing, but you even indicated at Vintage Worlds that it was a sufficiently different deck to warrant a different moniker.

It's a little late in the game to complain about this now, but I never liked the name "Control Slaver" either, since I don't feel that was really indicative of what the deck was.   All decks with Mindslaver are control decks, since that is what Mindslaver does.   I tried to give the deck the name Drain Slaver, to let people know it was a Mana Drain deck.   My efforts failed

There is a problem in Magic in general, and Vintage in particular, where deck names are not indicative of what decks do.  I know I've contributed to this problem in the past.   

The second innovation in Brian's list is Strategic Planning. And boy, was that exciting! I remember being really happy about how it would let Control Slaver dig better through itself, power up Yawgmoth's Will, and make Goblin Welder even better. I got my hands on three copies and couldn't wait to try them out. And then I ran them in a tournament. And I tested with them. And then I sold them in disgust. The sad truth is that Strategic Planning is not the best thing since sliced bread. It was a great move by Meandeck to catch unwary opponents off guard, and I do wish that I had played that deck at Vintage Worlds. Going  forward, however, I don't think know if it is going to be the right way to build Control Slaver. It might be, but Strategic Planning sure hasn't worked out for me in testing or in tournaments.

So, what is the problem that I have had with Strategic Planning? If you don't actually utilize the cards that you dump into the graveyard, it is strictly worse than Impulse. Impulse is an instant, which helps you to keep Drain mana open. Digging four cards deep is of course strictly better than digging three cards. And there are times that you'll see a card that you don't want to allow into the graveyard. If you're in need of a land, do you really want to let the Yawgmoth's Will that you've flipped go to the graveyard, never to be cast? Impulse lets you put it back into your deck, safe for a time when you'll actually be able to play it.

Now, if these were the only issues with the card, I'd be more inclined to like it. After all, its synergy with Goblin Welder can't be denied. However, it really opens you up to graveyard hate, and that is my main problem with it. In my metagame, more decks have some form of graveyard hate maindeck than not. Allowing Sundering Titan to fall into your graveyard may well mean that unless you already have a Welder in play, you won't be seeing that  Titan at all during the game. This situation has arisen too many times in testing and in playing for me to ignore. Losing a vital component of the deck to a  timely Tormod's Crypt was becoming a situation too common for me to be comfortable with Strategic Planning. I don't plan to run the card again.

I definitely think that Strategic Planning is great in Slaver.   However, I am not sure a full complement is needed.   But just as importantly, I think that if you run SP, you should run at least 3 Welders.   

I also think your discussion and comparison to Impulse i  connection with synergy to Drain is off point.   Mechant Scroll cost the same as SP, as does Night's Whisper.  Yet it was rarely said, at least seriously in recent years, that those cards "interfere" with the use of Drain. 

Aside from those, it's a nice article Rich.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm very glad to see such excellent responses. First, Marius, I don't believe there to be a true optimal build of Control Slaver. Different builds are going to work in different metagames. If there is a lot of Ritual-based combo in your metagame, then you are going to want a different sideboard plan than if there is not. The same is true for Null Rod.

What I do think, however, is that the days of optimizing the maindeck and subsequently the sideboard are over. The sideboard has become so critical and varied that it should impact decisisions for the maindeck.  Take Gorilla Shaman, for example. I don't really care for the card on its own. However, as part of a full mana denial plan after sideboarding, then he's solid. So, I'm only likely to include him in Control Slaver if I am turning into a mana denial deck.

Keven, let's compare Impulse and Omen. They both let you see up to four cards. Omen's a sorcery, which is a drawback. Impulse, however, only gives you one card at most, while Omen lets you keep all three of the cards if you want. And Omen can also toy with the opponent's draw, if desired -- such as if the opponent used a Personal Tutor. It's hard to say which two mana cantrip is optimal. What I can say, however, is that Ponder is better than the two mana Blue options and should be included in a deck before any of them.

Marc, I tested Disrupt a long time ago. The problem with the card is that it is often uesless in a world full of Moxen. It's probably much better in Legacy. Throw in its inability to dig for land when that's what you need and you have a card too situational to be effective. As for Grip, it seems worse than an actual counter. Neither of those cards help you draw when you need to, and I'd consider them more control spells than draw spells.

As for Black in Control Slaver. I do feel more comfortable with a two color version of the deck. If Black becomes a larger color in the deck, then I'd likely reduce the Red count. Welders can stay of course, but I'd likely have Duress over REB if I went that route. It is usually good to have a primary color to search out first, as having Black and Red cards in the opening hand with a single fetchland can slow down the deck's progress.

Haunted, Entomb is too narrow Maindeck. I'd run a Strategic Planning, Intuition, or Gifts instead. Duress, also, was not at all good when I tested it maindeck. I think Negate is probably better than Duress maindeck, but I wonder if you would just win more games including a maindeck Trinisphere.

Wox, Null Rod is certainly an issue for the deck. Ingot Chewer or Shattering Spree is the cleanest answer I can think of, the latter being better with a full set of Volcanic Islands in the deck. I doubt Arcane Denial would work, the card having been tried many times over the years; but if you have good results with it, then I'd certainly like to hear about it. I also agree that the Strip Mine is of limited utility in a lot of metagames.

Steve, I certainly don't want to turn this into a name discussion, so I'll say that my comments about Brian's new list being worthy of a new name stem from its mana denial elements, not from Strategic Planning. I think that it in many ways is more a modern build of Keeper than anything else being played today, combining card advantage, mana denial, and a mid-late game plan. And I entirely agree that Strategic Planning, if you are going to run it, demands more Welders.

[Smmenen]

my comments about Brian's new list being worthy of a new name stem from its mana denial elements, not from Strategic Planning. I think that it in many ways is more a modern build of Keeper than anything else being played today, combining card advantage, mana denial, and a mid-late game plan. And I entirely agree that Strategic Planning, if you are going to run it, demands more Welders.

The mana denial components of Brian's deck were not new, though.     

[The Atog Lord]

I believe that having that much mana denial in the deck is, though I could be wrong.

[marcb]

Rich,

 Thanks for the reply. I would have to say that it didn't take me long to realize why some of those other cards I mentioned previously were simply not good enough. They definitely were not the card I wanted to see most often. On the upside my testing did make me realize that more often than not, I wanted control elements not card draw. To this end I have been testing negate more recently, and I like how it plays in the deck. There have been many times where I have asked myself while holding negate if I would prefer it to be a night's whisper, and the answer has been no more than yes. I was wondering if you would comment on your thoughts about how you think about balancing card advantage and control elements (such as counters) in CS.
Do you feel that there is enough control in CS now, and that people in my position simply have not mastered the skill of properly resource allocating counters, or do you feel that there is room for more counters at the cost of draw cards such as NW. Specifically, I'm curious about your thoughts on negate since it is the first time that a decent hard counter that could relatively easily be available on turn 1 has been in the format. Suppose you were going to play Brian's list but wanted to replace Strategic Planning for fear of being more graveyard dependent, how would you feel about negate vs NW (need to tweak the manabase for NW obviously) in this spot?

Marc

[hauntedechos]

I've been quite busy this past week so I have not been able to follow up with responses and the like.


I have been pondering the inclusion of Entomb within my list.  Yes I fully agree to the narrow abilities of the card, yet of course I maintain it's ability to just nail things when you need it to.  Never the less, I have conceeded to pull it from my list in search for cards that are more in line with what Slaver is trying to do.  After reading the responses, I belive that the statement " entomb does not help bring you to the mid-game.."  was the one that really hit me.

I talked a bit about the uses that Entomb has for me and to be honest, the card really has been great.  In the end, after mulling things around, I do see the fault in my thinking.  While I am pulling out some wins with the card, it does nothing on it's own.  That fact has been stated before and I belive that my response was that there are other cards that are not 100% when Welder is not on the board.  The memo that I missed was that the other cards still do SOMETHING, w/o an active Welder and that the cheap casting cost and speed at which Entomb works, does not compentsate for this......er..and it doesn't pitch (it makes me giggle to qualify cards based on pitch ability.)

Q. What is the core of Slaver?
A. There doesn't seem to be an agreement on this.

When we look at the fact that there has not been an agreed "optimal build of Slaver" I think that a lot of the issue can lay here.  I'm not saying that "solve the core issue and we will have the answer", I am saying that we should look at the basis for the difference in cores.  This would allow a Slaver pilot to select his core and build from there.

Rich I belive that your opinion to my question of starting points was that:

4Welders
2Slavers
1Tormods
(robots) - you didnt go into detail on the choices if I remember.

4 Thirst
4Drain
4Force
Brainstorm
Ponder
Ancestral
Time Walk

and 24 - 25 mana sources.

When we look at the offering of Mr. Shay, it is in contrast to Worlds build in which we saw only two welders, a single Slaver and the inclusion of Shaman (though we can see this is a result of the inclusion of both Crucible and Stipmine).  Mr. Menendian says that even w/o the inclusion of a full compliment of SP, one should play at least three Welders.  So, three different people, three different opinions and three different builds, ea with differing cores and plans.

I suggest, that this be the thread that we look at different metas and suggest starting cores based on them.  Of course supporting proof and reasoning is a plus as it would be a good time (the second time around that is) to get to the base of "how do I pick my Slaver core and build my main around it".  Now certainly we need to look at how much a meta will push a pilot in a direction when building.  In that regards, contributions would be better recived if they included impact of archtype starting plays.  Another facet in this discussion and I belive contributions should include this; is how are you building the SB to extend the strategy of your main.  Mr. Shay has stated (and I don't pretend to agree or disagree with him), that he feels the Sb is going to be a huge part of a successful Slaver build and that it must play ball with the concepts the Pilot has started with in the main.

A question to ponder:

Is it meta's that we need to prepare for, or rather strategies that can be grouped together?  If the latter is true, then we can select cards that allow a "blanket effect" across a meta.

I.E. U/W Fish and ICBM Oath.  Common ground can be found in Wastelands, Chalices and Rods (from the board for Oath, Main for Fish), a la mana denial.

Appologies if my flow of thought seems helter skelter.

Cheers

Haunted.

ps PMs are always welcome and thoughts therein are confidential as always.

[forests failed you]

For the past three years I have always played a strong amount of Mana denial in my Control Slaver decks.  I have played Crucible + Strip, Gorilla Shaman, and Sundering Titan in pretty much every Slaver deck that I've run in the past few years.  The only exception being that I didn't play those guys when 4x Gush got popular, since Gush is really good against Titan and Strip effects.  I have even run Wastelands and Spheres in my board before.  But never so many Wastelands as I ran at Worlds.

Control Slaver, as I see it, is actually a sub optimal deck in a lot of ways.  Firstly, Mindslaver isn't good.  It costs too much mana to get going, and usually isn't even necessary to win.  At worlds, Jimmy finished in the finals and I finished in the top four and between the two of us we only activated 1 Mindslaver in all of our matches.  Secondly, Goblin Welder is actively bad in Vintage.  I know, I know he is so good against Stax... But Stax isn't particularly good except against Storm decks and any deck playing four Mana Drains (in the hands of a good player) just tears Stax apart.  Bascially, I have discovered that any Mana Drain deck that doesn't win with either a Storm Spell, or with a Darksteel Colossus (if Stax plays Welders) just tears right through a workshop deck.  Against pretty much every other deck that is actually good enough to consistently finish in the top eight of a tournament, Goblin Welder is basically like a mulligan because he is too slow, even with Strategic Planning to actually make an impact on the game.  In my experience, I've decided for myself that in the majority of the games, Goblin Welder is too slow simply because the format is too fast for him to make an impact on the game.  Although it is true that Slaver tries to slow the game down to a point where Welder can make a big impression, the Welder himself doesn't help you accomplish this goal--so, drawing him early will not help you live long enough to execute your plans.

When I was helping a few of my RIW friends test for Eurovino I quickly began realizing which cards in my deck I never wanted to draw and which ones I wanted to sideboard out.  After a while I realized that I was boarding out Welder and Slaver in every match up.  Ultimately, I took these changes and cut Red from the deck altogether in order to make way for Green cards, since I was only playing Red for Artifact hate and Green offered me better threats.  Here is the deck that I came up with, which in many ways does exactly what I wanted a Control Slaver deck, though differently, but with better results and a better cast of cards.  I had a pretty good build of the deck although it hadn't been put through the ringer as far as testing was concerned.  DW actually decided to play the first build of the deck at Eurovino, and did pretty well with it finishing with a record of 6-3.  Unfortunatley, I wasn't able to get ahold of Chapin or Michael Jacobs before the event, and Mike ended up playing the Welderless UR deck because he hadn't heard about the switch to Green.  Some of the Meandeckers, Jimmy McCarthy, Willie, and Juan also tried out the deck at the ICBM open and finished just outside of the top 8.  However, with some tweaking it seems as though the deck became much better and is a quality deck choice.  Since there are only a few weeks left before Shards will be legal, there is really no reason for me to keep the list to myself (as I won't be playing Vintage before the rotation anyways) so perhaps some of you Slaver mages would like to give this list a test drive.  I promise you that it is much more powerful, and much more competitive than anything toting a Goblin Welder--

I have come to realize that Control Slaver isn't really a deck that was defined, or good because it played 2x Goblin Welder and a Mindslaver.  In reality, all Control Slaver is really is a big mana blue deck, that plays Mana Drains and Tinker.  Slaver should really be called Blue Tinker/Will Control, because that is what is really at the heart of the deck and that is why it is viable.  Welders are just sort of like training wheels in Slaver because they make the best match up for a big mana Tinker deck even better, and they give you a back up plan (Thirst/Welder), in case you mess up setting up Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker.  But, in reality Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker is so much more explosive and powerful than trying to Weld in a monster could ever be.  I love it when people argue that "Goblin Welder makes Slaver's Thirst for Knowledges good," It is quite the opposite actually, "Thirst for Knowledge is so amazing a card in its own rite, that after it resolves it sometimes makes the barely playable Goblin Welder decent."

UGB Control (Strategic Keeper)

4 Strategic Planning
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brainstorm
1 Trickbind
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gush

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Sundering Titan
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Triskellion

1 Fastbond
1 Krosan Grip
2 Tarmogoyf

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Peral
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Tolerian Academy
1 Cephalid Collesium

2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island

Sideboard

2 Trygon Predator
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Thran Foundry
2 Krosan Grip
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Sphere of Resistence
1 Trinisphere

[andrewpate]

Brian, to what do you attribute Strategic Keeper's poor performance at the ICBM Open, where half of the top 8 was comprised of Drain decks, including one of the yawn-inducingly typical 2xWelder/1xSlaver CS decks you mention?  Not trying to be snippy, just saying that your post offered some convincing arguments which did not play out in practice, and I'm wondering if you think that some hidden factor makes those seemingly good arguments actually wrong, or whether you think the deck is still worth considering.

I'd also like it if you could address the inclusion of Strategic Planning itself.  Without Welder, the card has lost one of the synergies which helped it in the face of criticism for the old "you are stuck on two mana and use it to dig, only to flip a land and two bombs you'd rather not dump" situation, since you can no longer dump a robot and Weld it back later.  Night's Whisper, in particular, seems much closer to the "1U, draw 2" spell for which you were searching when you found SP in the first place.  Do you find the synergy with Will to be so compelling that SP is actually better?  This seems unlikely to be the only reason, since that suffers from the same "doesn't actually help you win" problem you attribute to Mindslaver:  Will, like Thirst for Knowledge, is so strong that it doesn't really need help from suboptimal cards in order to win.

[LordHomerCat]

People can have bad days.  My two losses were to both the Oath players who made top 8, and 3 of the 5 games we played I just did not draw good enough cards.  Orchard Mox Chalice Oath is pretty hard for me to beat, and it happened twice in deciding games, so things just didn't go my way.  Juan managed to draw twice and knock himself out, and Willie made a poor decision against a Stax deck and his opponent then topdecked the crucible exactly when he needed it to not lose.

Also, the list we played was a little different, and was built heavily towards a TPS/Slaver meta.  I didn't get to play either of those decks, and there was little to no TPS (probably the major matchup the deck was focused on) so it made my sideboard terrible.  I probably boarded in about 5 cards from my board total all day, which is pretty lame.

I don't know why everyone keeps saying to play Night's Whisper.  The reasons for excluding it have been mentioned like a thousand times (non-blue, makes you fetch a nonbasic, doesn't have the synergy with Goyf and the recursion elements, etc).

[forests failed you]

Brian, to what do you attribute Strategic Keeper's poor performance at the ICBM Open, where half of the top 8 was comprised of Drain decks, including one of the yawn-inducingly typical 2xWelder/1xSlaver CS decks you mention?  Not trying to be snippy, just saying that your post offered some convincing arguments which did not play out in practice, and I'm wondering if you think that some hidden factor makes those seemingly good arguments actually wrong, or whether you think the deck is still worth considering.

I'd also like it if you could address the inclusion of Strategic Planning itself.  Without Welder, the card has lost one of the synergies which helped it in the face of criticism for the old "you are stuck on two mana and use it to dig, only to flip a land and two bombs you'd rather not dump" situation, since you can no longer dump a robot and Weld it back later.  Night's Whisper, in particular, seems much closer to the "1U, draw 2" spell for which you were searching when you found SP in the first place.  Do you find the synergy with Will to be so compelling that SP is actually better?  This seems unlikely to be the only reason, since that suffers from the same "doesn't actually help you win" problem you attribute to Mindslaver:  Will, like Thirst for Knowledge, is so strong that it doesn't really need help from suboptimal cards in order to win.

No offense taken.

Firstly, had I been at the ICBM open I guarentee that one of those top eight slots would have belonged to me playing Strategic Keeper.  And, that is no disrespect to Jiimmy, Juan or Willie, all of whom picked up the deck and played it at my urging after I had only even posted the list the day before.  Basically, I felt as though I was on to something with the substitution of Red for Green and felt the deck was good enough for a go--and also all three played the list as a favor to me, because I wanted the deck to weather some tournament experience so I could get feedback about card choices before Dave Williams played the deck at Eurovino III. 

All three guys were right on the cusp of making top eight in a very large event--between one and two points off top eight.  Not bad for a deck that was very different, didn't have a lot of playtesting behind it, and which none of them had ample time to playtest with.  Just to put things in perspective, Jimmy and I talked on the phone at four AM in the morning before the tournament started and he was asking me about the card choices and which cards were for what match ups and suggesting other choices.  The fact that those guys even played the deck kind of amazes me because they really didn't even have a chance to test it.

Also, I would point out that Dave Williams went 6-3 with the deck at Eurovino III and at one point was 6-1 and just one win away from being able to draw into the top eight.  He said that he lost to a fish deck that just drew much more powerful spells than he did--which, seems somewhat lucky since the big Mana Tinker deck plays on the whole much more powerful spells than a fish deck does. 

I am firmly in favor of the big green upgrade, all of the Green cards impact the game in a much more straightforward way--and Green gives the Tinker mage the ability to answer pretty much any threat that the field can toss at it.  Particularly, I love the way that it provides the deck with Goyfs which fight pretty much every non Tinker monster, and Grips, Trygons, and Seals to actually deal with annoying Enchantments like Leyline of the Void and Oath of Druids.

Basically, I would sum up the very good performance (though not dominant) of my teamates with the deck to the fact that they didn't have ample time to actually test the deck against the majority of the field.   And, secondly that it was a failure on my part to actually ship them the best version of the list possible.  I only stumbled onto the green splash the day before the event so I didn't have time to actually test things out and think things through all the way--and as a result the list they played was not nearly as good as the list I have posted in this thread.  For instance, it was clearly a mistake that the list Dave and Jimmy both played did not include any copies of Tarmogoyf in the maindeck.  And, my teamates continue to tell me that they don't like the Zuran Orb combo in the deck at all.  I know Paul has actually cut the Zorb bond from the deck to make way for two more Goyfs.  In my testing I really like the Fastbond and think that it leads to really broken draws so I am continueing to play it in my lists and advocate it as a part of the deck.

Anyways those are my thoughts.  Also, the deck is much harder to actually play since you don't get the broken, but inconsistent Welder blow outs.  The problem with Welder is that it is pretty random since in order to make the deck keep up with Storm decks and Painter decks we have to cut welders and robots.  So, drawing them and playing them isn't really part of the plan the way it was three years ago when Slaver was the deck to beat.

[JACO]

Firstly, had I been at the ICBM open I guarentee that one of those top eight slots would have belonged to me playing Strategic Keeper. 

I don't think you would have, because the deck you told those guys to play was crap. All of these cards were useless in that room:
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb
1 Triskelion
1 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Krosan Grip

If they would have cut all of that crap from the main deck, and just played 4 Tarmogoyfs main, and Stifles instead of Trickbinds, at least 1 or more of them probably would have made the Top 8. That deck is littered with so many irrelevant cards and crap that will just sit in your hand. As all 3 of who played the deck in the ICBM Open found out, even though I had been telling them all night long leading up to the tournament, Strategic Planning is really only good when you can capitalize on it quickly (with Tarmogoyf or Goblin Welder).

To address the issue at hand of Control Slaver being relevant in the current metagame, people need to think about what they are trying to do with the deck. Are you trying to draw a bunch of cards and win incrementally? There's probably a better deck to do that. Are you trying to simply abuse Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will? There's probably a better deck to do that too. The direction that Control Slaver should take is to revert back to 3 or 4 Goblin Welders, and cut the situational crap like Rack and Ruin/Crucible of Worlds/Gorilla Shaman/etc., and focus on winning the game or locking out the opponent.

People have spent the past 3+ years trying to strip Control Slaver of its potentcy, and now that's why they're left with a pile of rubbish. If you want cute little tricks stuff that crap in your sideboard, and instead start focusing on abusing Strategic Planning and Goblin Welder, which are both very potent at what they do. Intuition is also really good with Goblin Welder (even without AK), and no one is playing it either.

[hauntedechos]

Just a quick note:  I've been  testing against ICBM Oath substantially (no not in tournies), and the card that comes in every time is actually Crucible.

I do run 4 welders, I do not run the stripmine, crucible is only there to ignore the strip effects of ICBM's Oath list.  Two things happen when I resolve my Crucible (which happens a vast majority of the times).  One, they lose a huge amount of tempo and the other is, I get to ramp mana and hard cast my threats if need be, which again happened a large amount of the time.

I do NOT run SP as it's pissed me off SO many times that I am looking to sell them.  I run 2 Night's and a Negate instead.


To respond to the latest offering in a Keeper feel.  I have been noticing that many times I play CS as a Keeperish deck and the thought of adding G over R seems very promising.  I look forward to results.


Haunted.

[hauntedechos]

   I've been able to take some time to ponder a few things and even delve into the ancient "Control Player's Bible" offering of Oscar Tan.  There was a couple of reasons for this.  The first was that Forests has proposed that we start to play a Keeperish deck and the other is that I've realised that I do need to look at foundational thoughts to reform my understandings from time to time.  Further than that, I've taken the time to read Rich Shay's Primer on Control Slaver again.  It's a really good idea that we all do this -thoes that want to contribute to this thread- because it not only re tells how the deck was originally supposed to be played, it brings us back to it's more basic and sold state -as JACO proposed CS needs to return to- as well as where the deck came from in the first place, which in turn reinforces the ideas behind how CS is supposed to be played.

   So with that said, I propose that over time, the actual essence of how CS should be played has indeed erroded.  That is not to say that it hasn't made top 8's or wins.  I am not even saying that the successfull pilots of CS did not make good choices in their matches; simply that there is a flawed view of the deck.  In fact the successfull pilots indeed noted that Mind Slaver was rarely activated, which in turn means that perhalps they should not have been playing CS in the first place, or the matchups were such that CS looked to it's toolbox for another "silver bullet" to break the game and match in half.

    I belive what JACO states above, holds much water.  By adding in additional control systems, we dillute the overall strategy of CS:  Tinker into the game breaking artifact.  In the primer offered by Mr. Shay we see that the bloodline of CS is of Tinker lineage and thusly should remain so.  When we add in Stripmine, we then want Crucible to reach Stripmines 100% potential.  When we do that, we look to the mana denial route (somewhat Keeperish yes?) and thusly want Gorrila Shaman.  All this is fine from a Control Player's point of view, however it starts to represent a flawed view of the deck we are talking about.  The original list of CS employed Blood Moon as it's mana denial component.  This is stand alone and while it would seem to be a subsystem for CS, the fact that it is stand alone and does not ask that further cards be included makes it acceptable to an other wise heavy U based deck- the fact that we run 3-4 basic Islands enables this.  Between Sundering Win Condition and Blood Moon, there should be a sufficient showing of a mana denial  component.  Gorilla shaman makes an impact on Moxen, while played across the board, does little against Fish.  Blood Moon on the other hand is a blanket statement across the field, which I belive is what CS wants and needs.  Further, gorilla shaman becomes a liability vs. Oath, while Blood Moon does not and yet has a very powerfull effect there never the less.  As a last point, Blood Moon - while it cannot beat FTW - begs enchantment removal in specific and does not fall prey to the many decks running STP.  CS seeks to use an artifact creature to beat for the win, so while additional sources of attack damage support the attack step win, they do not fall in line with the idea that the win condition comes from Tinker resolving.

    I believe that it is the "silver bullet" from the Tinker toolbox, that is the seperating factor when looking at Keeper and CS.  Keeper has many tutorable answers and will seek to find and resolve them as fast as possible, so that the Morphling kill sticks.  CS, on the other hand, seeks to draw into the mid to late game and resolve a single Tinker for the same "silver bullet" effect.  The difference is that by enlarge, the "silver bullet" is the win condition even if not outright.  To illustrate:  given time restraints, a Tinkered Slaver and activation may be enough that the opponent wants to move on to the next game, thusly you have gained a win.  On the other hand, as told by recent successfull pilots, it was rather the Tinker to Sundering Titan that both blew up the board state and beat for the win.  No conceeding for another game, simply the destruction of the mana base in conjunction that the artifact is a beat stick itself.

   By dilluting the deck and creating options to select from, we can find ourselves looking to effect the board state and getting into counter wars over things that do not win the game.  Yes they will effect the game state and even potentially put the game on tilt, but at what cost?  It has already been stated that CS does not want to get into one for one wars.  So attempting to resolve a Gorilla Shaman to eat some moxen may draw us into a war that we otherwise would not be in.  Further it leads us to put a Volcanic into play that may end up being blown up and set us back a turn in the mana base development dept.  It is the same reason that I feel Stripmine should not appear in CS either.  The gains of stripinng a land also puts us back a land, which is in essence a one for one.  To make this acceptable we need to add further cards to validate and thusly begins the dillution of the deck.  "hold on a second, wouldn't we have to do that same play for a Blood Moon"?  Yes, you certainly would, however the gains of Blood Moon resolving are much more powerfull and broad based than Gorrilla Shaman and thusly worth the risk.  Remember we are playing grass roots control here and managing our resources is paramount.  Each card played -that is not draw and even sometimes when it is- requires evaluation before being played.  If a card does not have a broad ranged application, it should not be included.  Again the deciding factor on Shaman vs. Blood Moon is that every deck plays a large amount of non-basics, while there is a varying degree of moxen being used, even in this meta game.  I am not saying that Shaman is a bad card that should not see play, simply that it may be better served in the side board.  Why?  because shaman needs to do more than eat moxen and he does, however the other problematic artifacts are also solved by Hurkyls, which is U and pitches as well as being an instant and therefore tutorable by all tutor cards.

    The point of all this is that we need to reduce the amount of subsystems and therefore non- blue cards within Control Slaver.  Further to that, I belive that we need to revamp the artifact toolbox, so that the resolved Tinker can pin point the "silver bullet" effect.  If the idea that adding more black cards or red cards is bad for CS, then surely the same can be said for adding more (as JACO would say) "junk" into CS.  CS is a straight forward deck that does not need more "tricks" to help it along.  Was stripmine, Crucible and Shaman effective at worlds?  apparently so.  Could the same result have been accomplished by a CS deck that was streamlined and in tradition?  Yes I belive it could have.  Is there creedence to playing Keeper?  I doubt it, after all it was CS that buried that arch type wasn't it and why? I belive it was because CS is base blue and the additional colours within, are only there to reinforce the elements that  CS can accomplish on it's own anyways.  That is to say, Welders recurr a failed attempt as does Yawgs Will and l further belive that Blood Moon (if included at all), simply reinforces Sundering Win Condition.  Beyond that, the bulk of the work being done is at the hands of blue cards: That is something that cannot be said for Keeper.


Just my two cents and there may be more to come.


Haunted.

PS - mods, I am working towards my graduation into adept status, if and when it is deemed appropriate.

[LordHomerCat]

as stripmine, Crucible and Shaman effective at worlds?  apparently so.  Could the same result have been accomplished by a CS deck that was streamlined and in tradition?  Yes I belive it could have.

Believe all you want, but the results disagree.  Without the super heavy mana denail suite, CS was a giant underdog to TPS (the most important deck in the field).  Your regular CS would not have fared (and did not fare) nearly as well as Strategic Slaver because the slaver decks that did well were specifically built to be strong against the expected field.

"Tradition" does not mean that it's the best.  Just because the original Control Slaver builds operated in one fashion does not mean that those were the strongest build of the deck.  Maybe we were wrong all along playing more then 2 welders, but the rest of the field was not built well enough to punish CS for it?  There were a ton of CS decks at worlds and the only ones in the top 8 were much more Keeper than classic CS.  The results speak for themselves, and this trend of ignoring actual results in these discussion threads for "i believe" and "in theory" does nothing to help anyone.

[LotusHead]

PS - mods, I am working towards my graduation into adept status, if and when it is deemed appropriate.

This was a wonderful post.  Often I have to explain what Magic is, and Chess meets poker with dragons and elves only gets me so far.

Vintage is such a theoretical goldmine/haven/cause that gives me joy on many levels.

While we often dissagree on what is best/optimal/fair, there are umpteen thousand possibilities in Vintage Magic and that is one of the many reasons I have never ever grown bored of this forman (even if Null Rod, Maindeck Rebuild and SB Energy Fluxes tried to drag me down...)

Oh, Control Slaver to me has always been the epitomy of Vintage: Broken, Bombs, Creatures, Drains, Islands, everything that Vintage is about.

[andrewpate]

By adding in additional control systems, we dillute the overall strategy of CS:  Tinker into the game breaking artifact.

The fact that, at one time, a deck was built which won the game in a certain way is not a reason to build a deck that way now.  If designing your Slaver list to be entirely dependent on Tinker is a good way to win, then by all means do so, but if you can win more games by doing something else, the history of the deck has nothing to do with anything.  Jimmy was spot on in saying that results are absolutely king.

But perhaps more importantly, you have created a false dilemma here.  I agree with your assessment that putting a back-breaking Tinker toolbox into a framework of tutors and countermagic is, inherently, and extremely effective strategy.  However, adding other elements to the deck does not necessarily make that win condition any weaker.  The default Slaver plan is twofold:  first, you keep the opponent at bay, and second, you play Tinker and make sure it resolves.  That's all well and good.  But if Crucible of Worlds and/or Gorilla Shaman are good ways to survive and accomplish this first goal, I do not see why I would refrain from running them simply because they aren't core elements of the strategy.  As long as they do not interfere with 4xMana Drain, 4xForce of Will, the tutors, and whatever draw engine you are using, Tinker will be exactly as easy to resolve when you do get around to casting it.  It may even be easier to resolve if mana denial has been particularly effective or if Crucible has allowed you to preserve quintuple-blue for double-Drain backup, e.g.

The thesis of your post seems to be that the name "Control Slaver" possesses a certain amount of ontological inertia qua itself.  That is, it is important that a CS deck do certain things and, by extension, that it not do others.  If you feel this way, then feel free to call Strategic Slaver and its ilk by some other name.  But please avoid the line of thinking which leads to the belief that it is somehow valuable that a certain strategy remains successful in a dynamic meta.  Winning is all that matters, and, while your post is highly persuasive with regards to the history of Slaver as an archetype, I remain unconvinced that the proscribed strategies will never be able to help me win games.

[hauntedechos]

I am glad to see that there is some conversation in this thread, even though it is in refuting much of what I had posted.  I wanted to take a few minutes to clear the air on what I feel to be mis interpratations of my post.


On Mana Denial:  My intent was not to nean that mana denial is uneeded or "wrong", but rather to look at what sort of mana denial is most effective and "stand alone", if any.  IE Blood Moon vs. Shaman, Strip and Crucible.  I am not saying that the pilots were wrong -the results speak for themselves as was pointed out- I was mearly trying to open the selection of cards up for discussion.  Indeed Blood Moons were used in the past and hit every deck with equal effectiveness, while there is a sliding scale on the amount of moxen used across the field.

On Crucible:  This card is solid in today's meta.  The card allows the pilot to ignor waste effects as well as ensure land drops to progress in land development.  Most importantly, the card is stand alone and does not tax the mana base of CS -which is something that is constantly brought up when talking about adding more black cards or the use of red cards.  Lastly, there are times when it can be pitched to Thirst painlessly when looking to keep two important cards drawn from Thirst.

On keeping to old lists:  My commentary was in response to JACO's comment, that the addition of cards into CS has lead to a dillution of the deck's performance.  Perhalps I came off as saying that we need to all play the list in Mr. Shay's Primer, certainly that is not the case.  What I was saying was, that we look to return to that list as a starting point and only replace cards that are outdated and only with cards that are either stand alone (Crucible and Blood Moon) or make a great contribution to supporting CS's goals, without forcing hard choices and contributing to incorrect game plays.

On the proof being in tourny results:  While it is possible that factors such as favourable pairings can contribute to tourney results, I agree that a deck's validity is proven or broken in the tourney results.  That said, I need to repeat that the use of mana denial (3 cards mentioned) was a solid meta choice.  I was only offering a point of discussion as to what, if any,  could have been used, to be as or more effective.  Discussing this in the constraints of "stand alone" ideals as well as looking at the types or removal that would have been required and present to deal with chosen cards.

I do not ignor tourney results with my ideas and theories.  I do recognize that archtypes need to keep up with the trends and will strengthen and weaken as metas change.  This whole post came about as a result of reading history and looking at what Slaver needs to do to remain competitive today.  The idea of archtype dillution came up in this thread and this lead me to look at the idea that perhalps we are not selecting the most optimal upgrades -certainly not suggesting that everyone is wrong.  To illustrate "The default plan of Slaver is two fold: first, you keep the opponent at bay and secondly you play Tinker and make sure it resolves".  My proposal was that we need to look at what will accoplish this best;  is it a Gorrila Shaman, StripMine and Crucible?  Or is it a Blood Moon or two and a Crucible?  To figure this out, we need to evaluate what the meta is packing in terms of answers and select the most potent cards there after.

I hope that this clears things up and perhalps some more discussion on card selections can resume.

Haunted.

[hitman]

I think Blood Moon is a poor choice, in general.  Control Slaver's biggest weakness, like most control decks, is the early game.  Blood Moon is not fast enough to adequately disrupt an opponent.  What Slaver needs are cards that are easy to cast very early and relevant to the hardest match-ups.  We know that the greatest foil to a control strategy is an overabundance of early mana to be able to overwhelm with multiple threats.  Another source of trouble for Control Slaver are control strategies that prevent you from developing the way you need to, whether that means through hand quality or mana development.  If a card does not account for these issues, it doesn't help Slaver strengthen its game where it's weakest.  Once Slaver gets going, it's very difficult to beat.  Most decks will choose to outrace it then.  Negate has shown good results and doesn't open your manabase up to attack.  It's fast enough to be online very early and beats most problematic cards for Slaver.   If you do employ a great deal of mana denial, Mana Leak may be a good choice, too.  A restricted manabase will have a hard time paying an extra three for a card.  If the gameplan is really to keep the opponent at bay first then you need this kind of early disruption. 

[Tin_Mox5831]

Tangle Wire would be an interesting card to test. It hampers your opponent's mana early without mortgaging your land drops away to utilize Strip Mine/Wasteland or forcing you to fetch dual lands at inopportune times, all while helping to avoid those early volleys. It also has synergy with Goblin Welder and plays nice with your Thirsts if you draw it later. You don't get an actual "advantage" in terms of your respective permanent counts, but you get the equivalent of 2-3 Time Walks (Obviously more with Welder shenanigans.) As a deck that wants to drag things into the mid-game, a colorless, weldable Time Walk sounds like just the type of effect that you'd be after. However, one seemingly major flaw with this plan is that it doesn't influence the Ichorid matchup at all. Maybe the current Ichorid hate will do an adequate job of keeping it in check.

I know that to suggest this in a Mana Drain deck is borderline heresy, but I'll toss it out there anyway. I've said dumb stuff before, and I'm pretty likely to again. 

Later,
Dave

[nineisnoone]

Tangle Wire would be an interesting card to test. It hampers your opponent's mana early without mortgaging your land drops away to utilize Strip Mine/Wasteland or forcing you to fetch dual lands at inopportune times, all while helping to avoid those early volleys. It also has synergy with Goblin Welder and plays nice with your Thirsts if you draw it later. You don't get an actual "advantage" in terms of your respective permanent counts, but you get the equivalent of 2-3 Time Walks (Obviously more with Welder shenanigans.) As a deck that wants to drag things into the mid-game, a colorless, weldable Time Walk sounds like just the type of effect that you'd be after. However, one seemingly major flaw with this plan is that it doesn't influence the Ichorid matchup at all. Maybe the current Ichorid hate will do an adequate job of keeping it in check.

I know that to suggest this in a Mana Drain deck is borderline heresy, but I'll toss it out there anyway. I've said dumb stuff before, and I'm pretty likely to again. 

Later,
Dave

As crazy as that sounds, I kind of like the idea.  Three mana is a bit late in a deck that won't be running Shops (i.e. a Drain deck).

[Qube]

I think Blood Moon is a poor choice, in general.  Control Slaver's biggest weakness, like most control decks, is the early game.  Blood Moon is not fast enough to adequately disrupt an opponent.  What Slaver needs are cards that are easy to cast very early and relevant to the hardest match-ups.

And why you don't play with (more) REB & Pyroblasts?

I know it's a little bit offtopic, but i played a fusion of painter and slaver at a tournament before 2-3 weeks:

[MCO] Painter Slaver,  (MB 60 / SB 15)

1 Platinum Angel
2 Goblin Welder
3 Painter Servant
1 Trinked Mage
2 Grindstone

3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tormod Crypt

2 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Deep Analysis
4 Thirst for Knowleadge

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Stripmine

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

SB:

2 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
3 Tormod Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible
3 Wasteland
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Pithing Needle

With this deck it's possible to make very fast a comfortable board with a good disruption back up. Intuition was just overbroken on the tournament. And through the REB and so on you have in the most case a hard counter. It's so easy to start with: Mana Crypt, Volcanic and Painter & REB.
After Game 1 you can rebuild it for a Slaver and play more control then before.

What you believe? Please give some critics and further ideas.

(sorry for my inperferct grammer)

Regards,
-Qube