Of Mana Drain and its place in Vintage

[hitman]

Since the unrestriction of Gush and the errata removal of Flash, it became clear to me that Mana Drain could no longer keep up.  The abundance of overpowered, early game plays and the strategies they employed annihilated Mana Drain decks at their most vulnerable point in the game.  The outcry from the Vintage community culminated in a number of shocking and anticipated restrictions and it appears that the metagame has initially resettled with Mana Drain and Dark Ritual-based strategies for their consistency and/or brokeness.  The return to Drain decks surprised me because I realized in the Gush/Flash metagame that Duress was tactically superior and I assumed the disruption of choice would revolve around it and Force of Will.

In the past, Drain decks enjoyed success because they weren't behind-the-curve and could leverage boosts in mana from Mana Drain faster than decks in the format could keep up with.  Very underpowered win conditions were employed to "swarm" the Drain decks with a plethora of attacks that amounted to bee stings.  As metagames developed and more powerful strategies emerged, Mana Drain's dominance in the format began to wane.  Without a format of clearly underpowered and slow strategies, Drain players have had less of an advantage to capitalize on. 

The premise of this post is Mana Drain is too slow and a new "rock-paper-scissors" metagame has emerged as a result.  As long as players continue to play old strategies that are no longer the powerhouses they use to be, the metagame will progress slowly.  This format has more cards and, consequently, more strategies than any other format that can be employed if there's enough impetus to get the ball rolling.  While there's less incentive for change than in more competitive formats, I think there's plenty of reasons to encourage innovation. 

As long as plays like Dark Ritual-Necropotence, Orchard-Mox-Oath, Tinker-Colossus, etc. exist, the need to meaningfully interact in the first couple of turns is paramount.  Game ending plays are too easy to assemble before Mana Drain comes online.  The forty percent odds of having Force of Will aren't good enough to bridge the gap between the early and mid-game.  Viable decks in today's Vintage need to use interactive cards that are playable from the start of the game in order to not lose before they have a chance to employ their own strategy.  Mana Drain poorly fills this role.

Also, Mana Drain still has the problem of dealing with a multitude of underpowered, low casting cost cards that can quickly accumulate into a critical mass of problems.  Duress, Thoughtseize, Stifle, Goblin Lackey, Gorilla Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, etc. are underwhelming by themselves but in conjunction with one another, seriously hamper mana development, hand quality and board position, all things devastating to Drain deck strategies.

I think the new metagame will ultimately revolve around aggro decks (Ichorid, Oath, Goblins), aggro-control (various Fish, MaskNought, Workshop Aggro), and combo (TPS, Grindstone/Painter's Servant, Dragon).  I hope this post spurs discussion that sparks innovation, whether it's to prove me right or wrong.

[Webster]

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post. You aren't really saying much of anything new.

'the restrictions were shocking _and_ anticipated.'

'duress trumps mana drain.'

'mana drain is good in slow formats.'

'plays that are faster than drain are bad for drain.'

'here's a list of 9 decks in the format; these decks are central.'


You acknowledge the existance of powerhouse format-defining decks like goblins and dragon yet fail to mention control slaver, drain tendrils, landstill, and bomberman. I'm a bit confused, but not really.

How exactly have you come to the conclusions stated in your post about the alleged decline of mana drain?

[meadbert]

There were 19 Mana Drains in the top 8 at Worlds so I do not see how Drains are on the decline.

Mana Drain is "slow" in the sense that you usually cannot play it till turn 2, so does that make it bad?  Is Yawgmoth's Will a good card before turn 2?  With the exception of a few insane Long hands Yawg Will is generally best if played on turn 2 at the earliest and turn 3 and turn 4 are more realistic in a deck like Control Slaver.  It is far more common to have Drain up with Lotus/Sapphire/Petal/Acadamy/Walk on turn 1 than it is to get any use out of Yawgmoth's Will on turn 1.  No one would suggest that Yawgmoth's Will is too slow for Vintage now because it is rarely useful till turn 2 or later.

Arguing that a card is bad because it is not useful until the mid game is faulty.  Most Vintage magic games still have a mid game.  You must have fast disruption to get to that mid game, but that ultimately falls on other cards.

Oath of Druids and Dark Confidant are slow but decks that use them use cards like Force of Will, Duress, Thoughtseize, Chalice of the Void and Wasteland to get to the mid game where they become quite powerful.

The King of slow cards is Smokestack, which Ray Robillard loves to point out does nothing till several turns later, but it still wipes out 6 permanents before your opponents 4th main phase.  How can type 1 decks possibly play such a slow card?  The reason is that Stax runs Chalice, Resistor, Thorn (maybe), Null Rod, Wasteland and Trinisphere and in that manner rely on other disruption to ensure there is a mid game where Smokestack shines.

Mana Drain's biggest weakness is not that you must wait till turn 2 to play it.  Instead it's weakness is that you must keep  open during your opponent's main phase.  In a meta game where the draw of choice was Merchant Scroll and Gush based then this was inconvenient and thus Drains saw less play.  In the current meta game Thirst and Intuition/AK are probably the best draw engines and for that reason Mana Drain's main drawback is far less inconvenient.  Mana Drain is a strong card in the current meta.

[zeus-online]

I don't get this post, arguing that mana drain is bad right now just seems wrong....You forgot to mention what it does:

Against many decks an online drain is just bad news and thus almost all the other decks are trying to do scary things before drain comes online.

It seems like this post says that control decks should not exist in vintage because of the powerlevel of the restricted bombs, i just think that's plain wrong.

If you look at vintage history you'll see that mana drain decks have mostly been on the top of the foodchain, even when faster decks where around.

We've had Keeper, Blue BullShit, Hulk Smash, Control Slaver, 4CC, and gifts as the best decks with the only exceptions being GAT and Original long(4 LED long).
The inherant weaknesses of fast combo decks seems to be a large contribution to the success of mana drain decks.

/Zeus

[Liam-K]

TFK just became the best unrestricted draw spell again, chrome mox just got unrestricted, and painter is a deck that can run 4xTFK without getting optimized into control slaver.  Mana drain may in fact be the fastest it has ever been.

[Neonico]

TFK just became the best unrestricted draw spell again, chrome mox just got unrestricted, and painter is a deck that can run 4xTFK without getting optimized into control slaver.  Mana drain may in fact be the fastest it has ever been.

Cant be faster than gifts decks....

[Implacable]

Chrome Mox is an interesting possibility: it may speed up Mana Drain.  But I think that doesn't even matter.  Mana Drain is very solid right now because it answers all the current engines - Thirst, Intuition - and it answers almost every fundamental card - Null Rod, Rituals comboing off, big artifacts, etc. - on the play.  It's record indicates that it just ain't too slow.

[hitman]

The fact that it answers Intuition and Thirst for Knowledge is a moot point because it's the Drain decks that use these engines in the first place.  As far as Mana Drain answering cards like Null Rod and Dark Ritual fueled plays when it counts is wrong.  Null Rod is a first turn play and so are Dark Ritual fueled spells.  The fact that you can Drain these after you've hit two blue is agreed with.  My argument is that plays like the ones you mention will resolve more often than not before a Drain deck can do anything about it.  If that's true, why still use this strategy?  I don't think blue control decks will disappear.  I just think Mana Drain is obsolete.  Do players have such a propensity for playing cards like Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge/Deep Analysis, etc. that they're willing to sacrifice the early game to such a degree?  Mana Drain is part of a mana intensive engine but tempo has shown to be more important than long term synergy and card advantage.  While the games don't actually end in the first couple of turns, they often functionally do and I think Mana Drain is partially to blame.  People have been running this card forever because it has been great in the past and continues to be great into the mid-late game.  The problem is Vintage decks get going faster now, whether it's an aggro, control, or combo shell. 

I do agree that Grindstone/Painter's Servant is strong and can be supported by some number of Mana Drains but the deck still needs early game disruption like Duress to get to the point where it can take advantage of the deck's inherent strengths.  Having tricks like Servant/R.E.B. are great and all but won't stop you from losing before you can get it going.  My beef isn't with control decks; it's with player's automatic inclusion of Mana Drain as a four-of in a modern control shell.  I think Drain's lost some of its power because of the speed of the format and if player's continue to play decks that aren't optimal, we'll have the same old format we had a few years ago.

[arctic79]

I can't believe I read this.  Are you completely ignoring the fact that most drain decks run a pleathora of other counter magic that is useful on first turn?  I don't know about you but I would pitch a drain to FoW on turn 1 to stop a threat.  Sure drain isn't really good till turn 2 with UU open but that is where it gains its advantage, counter a spell gain free mana, hell just the counterspell part is good.  And more often then not you aren't running mono blue so cards like duress/thoughtsieze are your early game just like the faster decks.  To top it off drain decks have the luxury of a late game, their defense is such to hold off faster decks till it matters, that is their design and strength.

[Smmenen]

Mana Drain is actually dominating Vintage right now.   In the August stats of touraments of 33 or more players, nearly 40% of top 8 decks had Mana Drains.   Compare that to Gushes a couple of months ago.  Only 24-25% of those top 8s had Gushes. 

Mana Drain decks are outperforming everything else at an aggregate level.   We are in an era of Mana Drain dominance.

It's actually quite funny to me that we restricted Flash and Gush when they were performing about 25% and 9% of top 8s, but no one has yet called for the restriction of Mana Drain when it is about 40% of top 8s.   

[Shock Wave]

It's actually quite funny to me that we restricted Flash and Gush when they were performing about 25% and 9% of top 8s, but no one has yet called for the restriction of Mana Drain when it is about 40% of top 8s.   

The numbers do not tell the whole story. We both know this very well Steve.

[InfectedMushroom]

I think many of us can recall, after waves or restrictions/unrestrictions, "how fast the format is getting". This phrase has been tossed around for quite a long time. Decks change and adapt. Mana Drain is as strong as it has been in the past. It is often usable turn 1 due to acceleration and provides a huge tempo swing. Mana Drain is still very much alive and most likely will be for quite some time.

[hitman]

I can't believe I read this.  Are you completely ignoring the fact that most drain decks run a pleathora of other counter magic that is useful on first turn?  I don't know about you but I would pitch a drain to FoW on turn 1 to stop a threat.  Sure drain isn't really good till turn 2 with UU open but that is where it gains its advantage, counter a spell gain free mana, hell just the counterspell part is good.  And more often then not you aren't running mono blue so cards like duress/thoughtsieze are your early game just like the faster decks.  To top it off drain decks have the luxury of a late game, their defense is such to hold off faster decks till it matters, that is their design and strength.

The problem is Drain decks don't run Duress for a good reason in the maindeck.  In mana intensive decks, running cards like Duress means you have to pop a Fetch for Sea or play Sea on the first turn to cast it.  You may then find out you're not playing the kind of deck Duress is strong against and your Sea may now be susceptible to Wasteland.  Mana intensive decks don't want to be open to mana denial so few Drain decks actually use Duress in the maindeck.  If you're a two color Drain deck and Fetch out a Swamp, that's just one more turn you won't have Drain up.  

The thing is, Drain is a reactive card.  You're waiting on your opponent to do something meaningful for you to Drain to gain tempo with from the mana boost.  If you're holding two blue up, your opponent will know how to play around what they think is in your hand in some fashion.  It's much more difficult to work around a Duress.  You can't reliably hide cards anymore with Brainstorm and holding Drain up just to get stripped from your hand ended up being a tempo loss for you because you didn't use that open mana to actually do something that turn.  Decks that look to win proactively tend to use their mana and disruption more efficiently because they have no reason to hold the mana open and unused.  They're doing more things than you and quicker.  

I think many of us can recall, after waves or restrictions/unrestrictions, "how fast the format is getting". This phrase has been tossed around for quite a long time. Decks change and adapt. Mana Drain is as strong as it has been in the past. It is often usable turn 1 due to acceleration and provides a huge tempo swing. Mana Drain is still very much alive and most likely will be for quite some time.

I don't think the format is too fast.  I think Mana Drain is too slow.  As a form of disruption, it's not fast enough to be played when it matters the most, i.e. the early game when tempo plays make the biggest difference.  Vintage is a tempo-oriented format.  The decks best able to use Mana Drain effectively are the ones that employ other means of disruption, like Chalice of the Void and Null Rod, early without opening up their manabase to a mana denial plan in order to get to the point where Drain becomes important.

[Moxlotus]

You're waiting on your opponent to do something meaningful for you to Drain to gain tempo with from the mana boost. 

No you don't.  You just need them to cast ANYTHING.  I've drained all kinds of 2cc spells on turn 2 that wouldn't have affected the game state very much, because I wanted that tempo boost.

reactive can be a great thing.  Duress doesn't do shit when your opponent rips something off the top.

[Dante]

I don't think the format is too fast.  I think Mana Drain is too slow.  As a form of disruption, it's not fast enough to be played when it matters the most, i.e. the early game when tempo plays make the biggest difference.  Vintage is a tempo-oriented format.  The decks best able to use Mana Drain effectively are the ones that employ other means of disruption, like Chalice of the Void and Null Rod, early without opening up their manabase to a mana denial plan in order to get to the point where Drain becomes important.

The large amounts of Slaver and Painter decks that have Top8'd and won tournaments would like to disagree with you.

If you define "early game" as "turn 1", then yes it's too slow, but turn 2 is pretty early.  Like Phil said, don't underestimate a 1-card hard counter.

How can you say that Null Rod can be played early but Mana Drain can't.  You're talking about a small percentage of the time that you get a piece of acceleration and the null rod for a turn 1 null rod.

[arctic79]

@hitman

I reject your logic.  As many people have pointed out CS fairs pretty good at being reactive.  Any deck that plays FoW by your logic is reactive.  As far as getting duressed out of your hand, who cares, better that card then something like Ancestral.  As for being susceptible to a turn 1 wasteland, find me a Tier 1 deck in Vintage that isn't, and if you are silly enough to lay a land that isn't a fetch on turn 1 with out any business in your hand then you have problems beyond understanding the strength of mana drain.

The problem is Drain decks don't run Duress for a good reason in the maindeck.  In mana intensive decks, running cards like Duress means you have to pop a Fetch for Sea or play Sea on the first turn to cast it.  You may then find out you're not playing the kind of deck Duress is strong against and your Sea may now be susceptible to Wasteland.  Mana intensive decks don't want to be open to mana denial so few Drain decks actually use Duress in the maindeck.  If you're a two color Drain deck and Fetch out a Swamp, that's just one more turn you won't have Drain up.

So what?  It's a trade, you hit something good in their hand they hit a land and they are down a land drop as well.  What deck in Vintage does duress no effect?  If you hit any tutor, draw, jewelery (black lotus) you hurt them.  Sure goblins just shrugs it off but that is one deck and I have a hard time calling goblins Tier 1 in Vintage right now, and Ichorid big whoop, game 1 is a bad one for almost any deck.
I'll acknowledge that Duress isn't common in Drain decks but it does happen in decks that run drain but aren't drain dependant.

[Webster]

The problem is Drain decks don't run Duress for a good reason in the maindeck.  In mana intensive decks, running cards like Duress means you have to pop a Fetch for Sea or play Sea on the first turn to cast it.  You may then find out you're not playing the kind of deck Duress is strong against and your Sea may now be susceptible to Wasteland.  Mana intensive decks don't want to be open to mana denial so few Drain decks actually use Duress in the maindeck.  If you're a two color Drain deck and Fetch out a Swamp, that's just one more turn you won't have Drain up.

Here's a hypothetical:

You've decided to visit Hell for one day. Planning your trip, you bring only swimming trunks. You arrive in front of a desolate frozen tundra.

Can anyone really fault you for your logic?

Taking your local metagame into consideration is very important. If you've decided to pilot a drain deck and are going to include duress, those are going to be the METAGAME slots. A percentage decision is made. Duress will be good against more of the expected decks than it will be bad against. If you draw the short straw and get paired against a matchup where it's poop, oh well. Making the right choice overall for future events shouldn't be swayed by the hindsight of a bad pairing.

The same logic applies with deck choices and the acceptance of mana drain as an abusive staple.


If you take a look at the August top 8 results on www.morphling.de, you'll be able to see how much mana drain is making top 8:

August 2008 Top 15
Vintage (15 events)
1. Force of Will (296)
2. Polluted Delta (215)
3. Wasteland (171)
4. Duress (165)
5. Flooded Strand (165)
6. Tormod's Crypt (165)
7. Underground Sea (158)
8. Mana Drain (140)
9. Thirst for Knowledge (134)
10. Leyline of the Void (129)
11. Chalice of the Void (117)
12. Volcanic Island (114)
13. Black Lotus (104)
14. Sphere of Resistance (102)
15. Mox Sapphire (101)

You never answered the question from my original post directly:

How exactly have you come to the conclusions stated in your post about the alleged decline of mana drain?

[hitman]

@ Webster -  I'm not saying Drain is doing poorly.  I was trying to say Drain is getting weaker and on the decline strategically.  As decks become more streamlined and push the envelope with explosive early plays, Drain becomes less and less of a factor.  I think the reason Drains are doing so well is that most people like to play them and continue to do so.  That may be why so few people are in an uproar over Mana Drain being unrestricted.  Please note I am in no way advocating any restriction.  While I did think Flash was too much, I didn't even think Scroll or Gush should go, let alone Brainstorm and Ponder.  I'm just saying that people called Gush the dominant strategy and Smmenen has pointed out that it constituted much less of the metagame than Mana Drain decks do.  There's clearly an affinity for this strategy in Vintage and I don't think it's strictly because players think it's the best.  There's no way I can deny it's recent success but my post is here to question why it's successful.  My original premise was that the Flash/Gush metagame showed us how a tempo oriented deck just smashes most of the field.  If that's true, why are players playing the same old Drain decks from 2-3 years ago?  Because they have great Workshop matchups?  I don't think that's it.  I'm not delusional and saying Drains are doing poorly right now.  I'm just saying they probably shouldn't be because of what we learned in the last metagame; tempo is better than mid-game synergy and late game dominance.

[Suicideking]

This is asinine.  How are decks pushing the tempo turn 1?  Vintage has always been a format that was held together by Force of Will to keep people honest.  But since the June restrictions I've seen less turn 1-2 kills then I ever have.  Drain being played has NOTHING to do with peoples biased, and Everything to do with it being the best option around for a control deck.  How often are your games so out of hand that drain does't matter?  Its still going to blow out shops, it will still give you a much needed tempo boost against fast combo, but most importantly, is that it's a hard counter that gives you a bonus.  Counterspell had to be recosted in cancel because its too good for todays mana curves, and Drain is way better then counterspell. 

Oath is probably the best deck to beat drain decks right now.  However some people will argue for drain in oath as well.  Oath will be written off because good players will pick it up smash sometimes and get bad hands others and perfer what they see to be most onsistant.

[hitman]

Guys, I'm not talking about losing on turn one.  I'm talking about getting so far behind that it's hard to get back in the game.  The DCI got rid of the decks that straight up blew you out that early on a fairly regular basis.  I'm talking about decks that will get a big jump in the early game and stay that way until the end of the game.  I'm not complaining about losing to first turn kills; I'm talking strategy.  What good is your Drain when your fetchland is getting Stifled or when you're getting Duressed?  How good is Drain when some mana denial strategy is employed and resolved on the first turn before you could reliably do anything about it?  You weren't spending your mana doing something productive yourself so your opponent is winning.  Between Oath, Ritual-based combo, various Fish, Ichorid, various aggro decks, and even sometimes Workshop aggro, how effective is Mana Drain.  What other decks am I missing?  Where does Drain really shine in any of those matchups?  Okay, Mana Drain can be stellar against any Workshop deck but you're probably going to need Force of Will on the first turn if you want Drain to matter because Workshop decks are throwing spell constricting artifacts left and right nowadays.  Follow that Sphere/Thorn/Chalice/Null Rod/etc. up with any fast clock, like Juggernaut, and you might not even have a chance for your Drains to matter.  All I'm saying is Drain is rather poor at clearing the way now.  It's still mainly used to run mana intensive strategies, not to hinder most decks development.  I say that because it's poor at hindering their development.  You have to already be developed yourself to hinder your opponent's development development with Drain.  By the time you have Drain up, your opponent could have cast Duress/Cursecatcher/Stifle/Thoughtseize/Chalice of the Void/Oath of Druids/Dark Confidant/Painter's Servant/maindeck Red Blast/maindeck Pyroblast/Null Rod/Daze/Negate/Cabal Therapy/Thorn of Amethyst/Sphere of Resistance/Unmask.  I stopped looking for cards after eight tournaments due to boredom.  What matchup is Mana Drain so good against in the shells that play them?  The only cards I mentioned on that list were ones that also included at least two other cards from the list.  I didn't even include the restricted spells.  In most matchups your opponent is likely to have three times the amount of relevant disruption you have.  The list of cards that are potentially game ending is even bigger.  They'll be able to play it and probably have it stick because they paved the way the turn earlier.
Having Force of Will is great and all but most of the decks that play the cards listed above have it too but you still only have a forty percent chance of even having it in your opening hand. 

Show me a tempo oriented deck that smashes drains.  If there was another flash/GAT out there people would play it.  There are tournaments out there with large prizes and somebody will always show up to these events with what has shown to be the best deck.  Drains or no drains.  ICBM showed up to Star city chicago with deez noughts which played 0 gushes and 0 merchant scrolls and smashed the hell out of the event.  So if there were better decks they would see play.

DeezNoughts is a tempo deck.  Combo is arguably the biggest tempo deck.  Oath is many times a tempo deck.  Regardless, whether a deck is labeled a tempo deck or not isn't the point.  The point is that these decks have better tempo than Drain decks.  My main premise is still the same; Tempo is better than mid-game synergy and Drains are largely used today for the mana boost.  Look at the cards Drain decks play.  They're mana intensive and that's why Drain is played over other forms of disruption.  I'm arguing that these Drain shells are not the best that Vintage has because their tempo is bad.  I keep reading that Drains are doing well and are great and things of this nature.  Why?  Why are they great; why is playing slow disruption good?  How is this advancing the format to anything more than the same old stale format from years ago?

Are Drains good because so many people just like to play them and tournemants are consequently filled with mirror matches, essentially?  If people want to play the best deck and not just the deck or archetype they like the most, why isn't the Vintage Champs deck played the most?  Why are decks like Belcher, Dragon, Goblins, various non-blue based Fish and other jank decks being played?  If you look at the tournament you won, you'll see a microcosm of what I'm talking about.  Fifteen out of forty-eight decks were Drain based.  One played early, relevant disruption in the form of Chalice of the Void to complement the Forces and Drains.  The other played a two-card combo.  The other lists were overwhelmed by superior tempo, dead weight in hand, bad luck, superior playskill, etc.  The first two points are my main beef.  Why play dead weight and bad tempo?  Look at the more tempo-oriented decks that made up more than half your metagame and it shouldn't be hard to see why better tempo wins.

[Dante]

That may be why so few people are in an uproar over Mana Drain being unrestricted. 

What are you talking about, Mana Drain hasn't been unrestricted - it wasn't restricted in the first place.

Between Oath, Ritual-based combo, various Fish, Ichorid, various aggro decks, and even sometimes Workshop aggro, how effective is Mana Drain.  What other decks am I missing?  Where does Drain really shine in any of those matchups?

It shines from turn 2 to the end of the game where you say "no" to whatever spell you want and then use the mana to advance your own plan.

I keep reading that Drains are doing well and are great and things of this nature.  Why?  Why are they great; why is playing slow disruption good?  How is this advancing the format to anything more than the same old stale format from years ago?

They are great because they are winning.  CC=2 is not slow.  I like in your example how you say that people could cast Painters Servant (not disruption) along with a slew of other 2 cc cards and even cards like Negate, which is also a 2 CC reactive counterspell.

Congratulations you figured out that 1 Mana cards cost less than 2 Mana cards. 

In most matchups your opponent is likely to have three times the amount of relevant disruption you have

You realize that three times means "3x" or "300%" not +3 right.  Let's see TPS disruption = 4 FOW + 4 Duress, Grim Long = Some Duress effects, not exactly kicking it with the disruption.

Also, since you're claiming Painter and Oath among tempo decks that "beat up" on mana drain decks (forgetting that both of these decks typically use mana drain), what "obsolete Mana Drain" decks are you talking about?  It seems like just Slaver.

As long as decks keep doing well, people will play them.  That's the great thing about results, they speak for themselves. (Yes I realize it's not 100% true, but for the most part, bad decks go 0-2 drop and good decks take home prizes).

You do realize that the entire metagame is slower now than it has been in the past year (or whatever it was when Gush was unrestricted)?

[LotusHead]

You do realize that the entire metagame is slower now than it has been in the past year (or whatever it was when Gush was unrestricted)?

As a Shop player, I noticed that Force of Will is not as prevalent (with Brainstorm and Ponder restricted).
That lets me keep hands that  are great if I live till turn three, while before I would have mulled.

That gives us balls to throw out lock peices when we other wise would have baited or mulled.

I haven't played in the unrestricted cmox/moxd/dreamhalls metagame yet.

[hitman]

What are you talking about, Mana Drain hasn't been unrestricted - it wasn't restricted in the first place.

This is just a miscommunication.  I'm pointing out the fact that Drain is unrestricted.  I never said it was restricted in the first place.  For instance, when Flash wasn't restricted, players complained that the card was "left unrestricted."  This didn't mean that it was restricted previously, just that it was not currently on the restricted list.

It shines from turn 2 to the end of the game where you say "no" to whatever spell you want and then use the mana to advance your own plan.

I fundamentally disagree with this.  My whole argument in these posts is that it's ineffective.  Just because you have the mana to play it doesn't mean the use of it will get you ahead.  You're just as likely to have it stripped from your hand, the mana denied you to play it, Sphere effects prevent you from successfully casting it when you want to, or simply have multiple bombs thrown at your face, of which only one may be stopped.  I'm saying it's much stronger to simply play spells than to hold mana and possibly Drain something.  When things don't go as you plan, you've lost a turn.  Decks are designed in such a way now that working around Drain isn't an inadequacy but something naturally built into the design of these decks.  Whether it's turn two or four, it doesn't matter.  A tempo-oriented strategy is superior to a Drain-based strategy because you are using your mana more efficiently and advancing your own gameplan, many times before Drain's even a consideration.  Even when Gush was unrestricted, decks based around it often didn't win until the mid-game.  They still smashed Drain-based strategies in the mid-game. 

They are great because they are winning.  CC=2 is not slow.  I like in your example how you say that people could cast Painters Servant (not disruption) along with a slew of other 2 cc cards and even cards like Negate, which is also a 2 CC reactive counterspell.

I mention Painter's Servant because it's often playable before Drain is up and after it resolves your Drains don't mean anything when they Red Blast you.  You can keep your Drains open all day at that point 'cause fighting a counterwar against one casting cost spells, when you're playing two casting cost spells, is a losing proposition.  The difference between 1U and UU are like night and day.  One is much easier to cast on the first turn than the other.  Again, I don't have a problem or confusion over control elements, like Negate, or control strategies.  My confusion over the prevelance of Mana Drain stems from its inability to secure the early game from which many game ending tempo oriented plays come uninterrupted. 

Congratulations you figured out that 1 Mana cards cost less than 2 Mana cards.

In all seriousness, I mean no disrespect but you're a Moderator.  To quote this site's own rules:
The Moderators and Administrators have no patience for people making immature attacks on each other.

You realize that three times means "3x" or "300%" not +3 right.  Let's see TPS disruption = 4 FOW + 4 Duress, Grim Long = Some Duress effects, not exactly kicking it with the disruption.

Also, since you're claiming Painter and Oath among tempo decks that "beat up" on mana drain decks (forgetting that both of these decks typically use mana drain), what "obsolete Mana Drain" decks are you talking about?  It seems like just Slaver.

....and Ichorid with 4 Leyline, 4 Chalice, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Unmask, or BUG Fish with Cursecatcher, Stifle, Negate, Null Rod, Thoughtseize and Duress, or Oath with Chalice of the Void, Duress or Thoughtseize and Negate, or Painter with Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast, or Workshop based decks with Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice of the Void and Null Rod..........................

Though Painter runs Drains, I'm pointing out that they have, in some way, played earlier disruption.  While not faster than Duress, it's better than Drain because by the time Drain's active, Red Blasts have already been active for a turn.  I only say Red Blast isn't faster than Duress because, to really abuse it, you want Painter's Servant resolved first.  Against blue-based decks, Red Blast is active just as fast as Duress, obviously.  TPS doesn't need more disruption because they can overwhelm you with threats early as well as Long, which is faster and consequently needs less protection because you'll have even less of a window to disrupt them in.

Oath does not need Drain.  It's been used in the past because cards like Negate were overlooked or unprinted yet.  Drain's function in Oath is poor because the manabase is susceptible to mana denial elements that cut a player off Drain and there are few worthwhile outlets for Drain mana. 

[Moxlotus]

A tempo-oriented strategy is superior to a Drain-based strategy because you are using your mana more efficiently and advancing your own gameplan, many times before Drain's even a consideration.

Welcome to 2004 u/r fish.  Unfortunately (or fortunately) those tempo oriented strategies don't always get off the ground as quickly as they'd like.  Or their follow through doesn't work out.  Then you drain their shitter, cast a fing huge bomb and win the game.

When things don't go as you plan, you've lost a turn

Instants exist.

[LordHomerCat]

See, you're making all kinds of assumptions that are untrue and unsupported by fact.  The one that bugs me the most is how you claim that (to paraphrase) the Gush era taught us that tempo decks crush drain decks, so everyone now playing drains is making a dumb choice when they should just play some tempo deck that overpowers them.  The problem with this is that no tempo deck today can even be mentioned in the same sentence as GAT.  The Gush era was too fast for Drain for the most part, and the tempo decks were too powerful.  However, that is CLEARLY not the case since Drain is the best performing archetype by a fair margin.  Rather than making these ridiculous leaps and assumptions and arguing that the reason the evidence disagrees is because players are stupid and love drains too much, maybe you should look at the evidence and try to make assumptions from there.  Until the top 8's start getting dominated by fish and other tempo based decks, you would be crazy to claim that Drain is too slow and clunky when it is obviously good enough to top 8 and win a lot of tournaments.

Really, I don't even understand how you can make most of these arguments.  This isn't just theory: there is all kinds of actual empirical evidence to analyze which suggests basically the complete opposite of everything you claim.  As a scientist, I have trouble comprehending how you can claim what you are.

[Dante]

I fundamentally disagree with this.  My whole argument in these posts is that it's ineffective.  <stuff deleted> ...A tempo-oriented strategy is superior to a Drain-based strategy because you are using your mana more efficiently and advancing your own gameplan, many times before Drain's even a consideration.

I think most of us understand your argument - A tempo-oriented strategy is superior to a Drain-based strategy.  You just haven't convinced anyone, that's all.  All you've basically said is "here's a million cards that can be played before you have drain mana up that can mess with mana drain and thus because I can play those cards, Mana Drain is ineffective".  I think it would help your argument if you defined EXACTLY what strategies you feel are outdated - not generically like "drain strategies", but specifically such as decks (e.g. Slaver).

Also, you should probably define tempo because almost none of the things you listed I would really consider a "tempo-based strategy" - Ichorid is just fast, according to you Painter is just faster than any drain-based deck, Workshop decks will always spit out spheres and chalice/wastelands before you have UU, etc.  The only tempo deck listed anywhere in this thread is the BUG deck, which has been relatively untested (or at least un-reported) in tournament play.

Again, given the strong results of decks playing 3-4 drains (see Slaver, Painter, and Drain Tendrils) in high-level tournaments in the past month or two, your claim that "tempo decks" have rendered Mana Drain obsolete, to me, is both untrue and not proven at all by your arguments here - which don't seem structured or organized.  All you've said is that "there are a ton of playable cards that all WILL definitely hit play before mana drain".

as for this:

Congratulations you figured out that 1 Mana cards cost less than 2 Mana cards

I'm sorry if you didn't like the somewhat sarcastic way I summarized your main argument for your theory (and that is basically all you've said in this thread), but it wasn't an immature attack on you, just a sarcastic way of showing your argument was weak and lacking evidence.  Pointing out a weak argument is not a personal attack.

I'm going to quote from the "What TMD is All about" thread

As a moderator there and a Vintage Adept member from day 1 (and before at Beyond Dominia), the main open discussion forums should be compared to releasing an article into a medical or scientific journal - if you don't dot all your "i's" and cross all your "t's", you're going to be in trouble, because most of the longtime players and posters will analyze the posts and ideas very critically.  This doesn't mean negatively, it just means in depth and thorough.

In a lot cases if you haven't done that (or many cases even if you have), it's not going to look good if you don't have well thought-out answers to common questions (i.e. how to beat commonly played decks, deck strategy and role, sideboarding plan, etc).  If a physicist released an article to a journal and the math/theory/results were sloppy, not articulated well, or based on arguable assumptions, reaction to that article in the physics community is going to be critical....

the onus is always on the poster of said idea to give sufficient evidence that an idea is sound......

Part of the effective presentation package is having an idea of what is meant by significant sample size, and how to resist the temptation of making blanket or absolute statements often based on superifical theoretical analyses or anecdotal evidence

My main issue with the theory you propose is that:

1. your arguments are often times not specific enough
2. you take best case scenarios from other decks (turn 1 spheres and null rods, turn 1 rebs, turn 1 painter's servant) vs a normal opening of turn 2 drains (and you seem to always assume the drain deck is on the draw not the play)
3. you seem to misuse the concept of tempo
and last of all
4. The tournament results in the post-restricted Gush, BS, and Scroll so far don't support your hypothesis.

I have no real ties to Mana Drain either, I usually play some weird deck, so don't take it as me defending my "pet" deck, since if I had a pet deck it would be WGD.

cheers,

Dante

[hitman]

Also, you should probably define tempo because almost none of the things you listed I would really consider a "tempo-based strategy" - Ichorid is just fast, according to you Painter is just faster than any drain-based deck, Workshop decks will always spit out spheres and chalice/wastelands before you have UU, etc.  The only tempo deck listed anywhere in this thread is the BUG deck, which has been relatively untested (or at least un-reported) in tournament play.

Tempo is the efficient use of mana before a strategy revolving around card advantage, and the mana needed to fuel it, can incorporate its strategy.  Put in another way, it's the difference between time advantage and card advantage.  See the article in the Useful Articles Archive titled Tempo and Card Advantage. 

You're right to assume I associate Ichorid and Painter as more tempo-oriented than Drain-based decks because they capitalize on time advantage more than card advantage, hindered by its mana development.  I'll define which Drain based strategies I'm talking about a little further down.  Decks like Fish have gotten the reputation of being the majority of tempo-based strategies because they incorporate it into most things they do in a game.  My argument is most decks in Vintage have tempo-oriented plays that are superior to Mana Drain in a time advantage versus card advantage scenario.  Vintage cards are too powerful at abusing time for us to depend on outdated sources of mana boost into card advantage.  I didn't just list a bunch of cards that can be played before Drain; I listed strategies that employ multiple ways of trumping Drain-based strategies.  If tempo is the efficient use of time, than Drain is a step behind the curve because the tempo strategies decks employ today are faster than it. 

The outdated Drain-based decks I'm talking about are decks like Slaver, Drain Tendrils and Bomberman which depend so heavily on mana that doesn't usually materialize to the degree that they require until the mid-game.  Painter's Servant and Oath of Druids decks use of Mana Drain isn't as important because they can abuse time advantage as well as most decks in Vintage due to the nature of their win conditions.  It's simply a complement to the deck.  Mana Drain also fits well into control strategies which don't lose tempo in the early game because of other early game forms of disruption, like Chalice of the Void. 

I'm talking about the efficient use of time in a game of Magic.  The old Drain-based strategies don't do enough in the early game.  With so many early tempo-generating spells that are powerful enough to see play in Vintage, does Mana Drain cut it?  I'm not calling people idiots because they play Drains.  I simply think players in Vintage have an affinity for the kind of strategies Drains fuel.  Players play decks for all kinds of reasons besides which deck is strictly the best to bring to any given tournament.  Maybe their card pool is limited or they prefer one deck to another.  Maybe they just want to have fun.  If enough players are making deck choices based on decisions like this, can you gain enough empirical evidence that Drain is just as strong as it used to be? 

A tempo-oriented deck doesn't have to destroy a slower developing deck to be considered strategically superior.  While we don't have a strategy that just stomps these Drain-based decks, like GAT, we do have decks that are strategically superior.  They capitalize on the early game where Drains are weak and they are in large enough numbers to warrant concern.  Whether it's TPS, Oath, Ichorid, Fish, or even Workshop Aggro, they generate better tempo than the aforementioned Drain decks.  They seek to best abuse their time advantage.  I'm not talking about tempo-based decks that look to make tempo-generating plays all the time.  I'm talking about decks that play enough tempo-generating plays to get an early lead and stay there.  All the decks I mentioned do it better than the mana intensive Drain-based strategies I mentioned earlier.  I don't want to make the impression that I think Mana Drain is a trashy card and shouldn't see any play.  I'm trying to get across the point that it fills a niche role in certain decks, more akin to Landstill than Yawgmoth's Will strategies. 

I appreciate the last two posts because I think we're getting to the meat of the issue.  I think results can camouflage the reality of what's developing, sometimes.  Results are only important in the context of the rest of the field.  In New England, the majority of decks played revolve around Mana Drain.  To argue that they have a great deal of success is an invalid argument because if most of the field is Drain-based, it's natural to assume that many of the top eight decks will be Drain-based.  If most decks revolve around Mana Drain, the Drain deck with the best tempo should win.  If you look at their recent results, Painter decks are crushing the rest of the Drain infested field.  At the last ICBM tournament, only one mana intensive Drain-based deck made top eight even though they made up, roughly, a quarter of the field.  The mono-blue deck was playing relevant early disruption in Chalice of the Void and Rune Snag.  Saying Drains are successful right now is true, but only in the correct contexts.   

[RJ]

  In New England, the majority of decks played revolve around Mana Drain. 

I think part of the problem with your argument  is this statement.  The decks you mentioned do not revolve around drain.  The use drain as a way to further their game plan, but they in no way sit around waiting to drain something and then do something relevant.  Slaver, DT, and Bomberman are the decks that you mentioned as being strategically lacking, but you are not taking into consideration the actual gameplan of these decks.  If you write each of them out, none of them say wait to drain...then do x. 

Look at drain as a counterspell with a benefit and not a cornerstone to the strategy of each deck that you have pointed out, and the fallacy in your argument should be obvious. 

[hitman]

You are still losing tempo in the early game no matter which way you look at this.  Theoretically, the deck that sacrifices tempo for card advantage overwhelms opposing decks in the mid-late game with a greater effect that usually costs more.  What effect are these Drain-based decks accomplishing that another more tempo oriented strategy isn't doing better?  TPS is better than Drain Tendrils at a Tendrils kill.  TPS, Oath and sometimes MaskNought are all better at getting overwhelming creatures into play without sacrificing the early game than Slaver.  Oath, TPS and MaskNought are all better than Bomberman at transitioning from a control role to a beatdown role.  The only trump in any of these decks is Mindslaver and some of the more successful players are even abandoning that strategy because it's not enough.  I grant you that Painter is strong but not because of Mana Drain.  It does more sooner than other Drain decks.

[LordHomerCat]

You are still losing tempo in the early game no matter which way you look at this. 

You keep saying that and it doesn't even mean anything.  How am I 'losing tempo' by playing a spell that costs 2?  You may have noticed that everybody plays 2 drops: should they just cut everything that costs more than 1 for fear of 'losing tempo' ?  Drain decks don't sacrifice tempo at all either.  Have you ever resolved a drain?  It's a gigantic tempo boost, moreso than Dark Rit or even Workshop provides.

It seems clear from the results that Drain-based decks like Painter and Slaver must be doing something better than crap like Masknought since top 8's are full of drains and mysteriously light on Masks.  You are vastly oversimplifying things and it seems you are also lacking any sort of experience with any of the decks in question as you cannot see any reason to play something that doesnt run 35 1 drops.