[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays - Tezzeret the Unreal, and Other Vintage

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16405.html

blurb:

Read Stephen Menendian every week... at StarCityGames.com! Monday, September 15th - Shards of Alara is just around the corner, and one officially spoiled card in particular is kicking up a Vintage stink: Tezzeret the Seeker. Today’s So Many Insane Plays sees Stephen Menendian shake things up with a plethora of Tezzeret decklists, incorporating the Blue planeswalker in a number of tried and tested Vintage strategies…

Wanna see what a Painter Tez hybrid looks like?  I try every single Tez shell I could dream up, and more.  

Also in this article: Helm decks!  

Hot tech and more!

[CHOZO]

I loved the article. I really liked the mono blue control list and will probably give it a try.

If you were to put together a sideboard for the blax list, what do you think it would look like?

[The Atog Lord]

Steve, you've managed yet another feat of clairvoyance. Someone showed me these lists from your article:

Team Reflection Tez

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Deep Analysis

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
5 Fetchlands
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

And then with Night’s Whispers:

Team Reflection Tez, Model B

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Tinker

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Night’s Whisper

2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
5 Fetchlands
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Well done, Smmenen. You've actually managed to discover both of our lists within a card or two. Have we become that predictable?

[zeus-online]

Have trinisphere been considered for the maindeck? Simply to give an early tezzeret a relevant target against storm.

/Zeus

[beder]

Have trinisphere been considered for the maindeck? Simply to give an early tezzeret a relevant target against storm.

/Zeus

Well, if it hasn't been, I think it definitely should
Tezzeret is at the same time : a solution finder, a hate finder, a card drawer and and a win condition (like a super trinket mage in bomberman).
We used to have a "classical trinket mage" package, now there will be a "classical Tezzeret package", with so many insane plays.

PS for Steve : in your article, I noticed that you didn't present any list with the bomberman engine and tefferet. Don't you think there is something to do about it? Especially cause bomberman naturally has a solution to tefferet main weakness : bomberman has creatures that can be used to prevent opponent creatures from damaging you and so reducing your tefferet potential.

[beder]

With more thinking about Tezzeret impact on vintage, one could even imagine some other cause-consequence effects that would lead to "the red stifle, the red duress, ..." been played in vintage : lightening bolt.
If Tezzeret has a strong impact on vintage and is really a new "tinker colossus" (or even more cause it is not only a win condition), then at the same time :
- decks that can naturally deal with that card will be better : decks with creatures
- decks will have to find a way to deal with Tezzeret
Lightening bolt is a relevant card whether it comes to adressing decks with creatures or to deal with Tezzeret. After searching for a 1CC artifact, Tezzeret can be killed by a lightening.
Even now, in the current meta, lightening bolt is I think not a bad card : deals with painter, juggernaut, dark conf, welder, ... It can even been used against storm that uses too many life point for necro or bargain.

I don't know if this will really occur but I have to say that I would be really pleased to be able to use again lightening in vintage, as in the very early days of magic

[andrewpate]

Rich, both of the lists in your post are 59 cards.  Is that a metagame slot, or what?

[Smmenen]

Well done, Smmenen. You've actually managed to discover both of our lists within a card or two. Have we become that predictable?

It's my job to anticipate what other people might play, esp. people who are likely to do well.    Hence, my record against you

I hope that SCG premium is a valuable (and entertaining) service to my readers.

I loved the article. I really liked the mono blue control list and will probably give it a try.

If you were to put together a sideboard for the blax list, what do you think it would look like?

Take a look at 5c Stax sbs, but add Yawg Will.   

[Tha Gunslinga]

With more thinking about Tezzeret impact on vintage, one could even imagine some other cause-consequence effects that would lead to "the red stifle, the red duress, ..." been played in vintage : lightening bolt.
If Tezzeret has a strong impact on vintage and is really a new "tinker colossus" (or even more cause it is not only a win condition), then at the same time :
- decks that can naturally deal with that card will be better : decks with creatures
- decks will have to find a way to deal with Tezzeret
Lightening bolt is a relevant card whether it comes to adressing decks with creatures or to deal with Tezzeret. After searching for a 1CC artifact, Tezzeret can be killed by a lightening.
Even now, in the current meta, lightening bolt is I think not a bad card : deals with painter, juggernaut, dark conf, welder, ... It can even been used against storm that uses too many life point for necro or bargain.

I don't know if this will really occur but I have to say that I would be really pleased to be able to use again lightening in vintage, as in the very early days of magic

Or you could just run Red Elemental Blast, which is infinitely better.

[Neonico]

which doesnt kill Welders nor confidants....
I dont say that playing Lightning bolt is better than REB, but it can have some really good applications in our metagame too, and is better than REB in a deck like UR fish for example.
That said, i think that if i was playing a blast in vintage, it would be Fire/Ice.

[The Atog Lord]

As far as Lightning Bolt is concerned, I was absolutely destroyed by a Mono Red Burn deck in the swiss at the Myriad event on Saturday. I ended up taking a top four split, with the Burn deck being the person that I would have faced again if I had declined. I remember at one point activating Grindstone only to have three or so spells sent into my Painter, running over my counters.

[beder]

With more thinking about Tezzeret impact on vintage, one could even imagine some other cause-consequence effects that would lead to "the red stifle, the red duress, ..." been played in vintage : lightening bolt.
If Tezzeret has a strong impact on vintage and is really a new "tinker colossus" (or even more cause it is not only a win condition), then at the same time :
- decks that can naturally deal with that card will be better : decks with creatures
- decks will have to find a way to deal with Tezzeret
Lightening bolt is a relevant card whether it comes to adressing decks with creatures or to deal with Tezzeret. After searching for a 1CC artifact, Tezzeret can be killed by a lightening.
Even now, in the current meta, lightening bolt is I think not a bad card : deals with painter, juggernaut, dark conf, welder, ... It can even been used against storm that uses too many life point for necro or bargain.

I don't know if this will really occur but I have to say that I would be really pleased to be able to use again lightening in vintage, as in the very early days of magic

Or you could just run Red Elemental Blast, which is infinitely better.

When it comes to kill Tezzeret, sure you are right, Red blast is better.

But my point of view is a little bit different : assuming that Tezzeret becomes a real vintage staple, then I thought about the impact it could have. One of those impacts could be the improvement of creature based decks, cause naturally hasting tezzeret. For instance, if you just have 2 2/x creature on board, those are sufficent to kill tezzeret with just one attack or at least to radically reduce its potential.
That's why i thought about lightening bolt being not so bad, given that at the same time it could deal with creatures and Tezzeret.
All this reasonment is based on an assumption I made : Tezzeret would have an important impact over the vintage metagame :
- by itself, becoming one the main components of many decks
- indirectly, improving creature based decks as its natural predators.

But perhaps I am wrong, this is just a guess  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Until you can Lightning Bolt a Tinker or Ancestral Recall, I think I know which one I'd play.

Also, Steve, just so you know, ICBM doesn't really stand for anything; it was just come up with randomly quite a few years back.  Someone may have said it stood for "I Can Beat Meandeck," but it doesn't really.

[Smmenen]

Also, Steve, just so you know, ICBM doesn't really stand for anything; it was just come up with randomly quite a few years back.  Someone may have said it stood for "I Can Beat Meandeck," but it doesn't really.

Please, you don't honestly expect me to believe that do you

@ Everyone: there will be plenty of ways to deal with Tez.   

Red Blast and Bolt are just two among many.  But, you have to have it not only at the absolute right time, but you also have to push it through countermagic.  And in any case, if your opponent suspects a Bolt, it's not a big deal to just use his +1 ability for a turn and then find Time Vault on the next turn, when you can have more countermagic available to protect him. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

Also, Steve, just so you know, ICBM doesn't really stand for anything; it was just come up with randomly quite a few years back.  Someone may have said it stood for "I Can Beat Meandeck," but it doesn't really.

Please, you don't honestly expect me to believe that do you

Well, I would assume originally ICBM meant this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icbm

but over time it came to stand for many things, among them "I Can Beat Meandeck." However, that's not what *we* think it means.  I'll talk to Jamison about it and get back to you on it.

[Wise]

intercontinental ballistic missile is almost as good of a team name! ahaha



Decent read, ALOT of deck lists, so many numbers !

[M.Solymossy]

Also, Steve, just so you know, ICBM doesn't really stand for anything; it was just come up with randomly quite a few years back.  Someone may have said it stood for "I Can Beat Meandeck," but it doesn't really.

When Jamison and I made the team, I believe his intent was "I come bearing Mediocrity"
Please, you don't honestly expect me to believe that do you

@ Everyone: there will be plenty of ways to deal with Tez.   

Red Blast and Bolt are just two among many.  But, you have to have it not only at the absolute right time, but you also have to push it through countermagic.  And in any case, if your opponent suspects a Bolt, it's not a big deal to just use his +1 ability for a turn and then find Time Vault on the next turn, when you can have more countermagic available to protect him. 

[Smmenen]

I'm surprised no one has commented on the Painter Tez list.   

[Mith]

I'm surprised no one has commented on the Painter Tez list.   

Do you mind posting the list for those of us without premium? 

[Smmenen]

I'm surprised no one has commented on the Painter Tez list.   

Do you mind posting the list for those of us without premium? 

I have to have a reason for people to actually get premium   Sorry

[Razvan]

i liked your article, as usual, especially the blax list, that's quite fun. but!

My team was the first to break out Oath after the printing of Forbidden Orchard in 2004. We placed half of the Top 8 at the second StarCityGames.com Power Nine tournament with the Oath deck, using Akroma and Spirit of the Night.

you bring this up in every article... i think we got it

[Smmenen]

i liked your article, as usual, especially the blax list, that's quite fun. but!

My team was the first to break out Oath after the printing of Forbidden Orchard in 2004. We placed half of the Top 8 at the second StarCityGames.com Power Nine tournament with the Oath deck, using Akroma and Spirit of the Night.

you bring this up in every article... i think we got it

Nah, just every other

I'm glad SOMEONE noticed the Blax list

[beder]

One thought when it comes to Tezzeret.
During the last days, I saw many comments about "how using Tezzeret as a win condition can replace efficently existing other wins condition". For instance, in the Slaver thread, i read a post explaining that "If using Tezzeret, then you don't need the Slaver package, cause Tezzeret is going to be more efficent".
I saw different other build proposal relying strongly on Tezzeret, generally control builds.

Given that vintage player are not used to using planeswalker, I think we all miss an important point : Tezzeret hates creature (even small ones). Especially in vintage that do not use creature removal.

From ages, Control decks have had difficulties dealing with creatures quickly put on board. From ages, the same has been true : when playing control against aggro, you have to succeed in maintaining opponent's "creature threat" under an acceptable level, in order to have enough time to set up your game plan, starting taking control over the board/game or in these days, "directly winning" through a broken turn.

My point is "Tezzeret, as a win condition of a control deck, implies that you are not under any creature pressure, in order to be usable".
For instance, a single dark confidant on opponent's board makes your Tezzeret useless.You won't be able to use the timevault combo :
- directly searching for timevault makes tezzeret killable with just one dark conf attack
- adding a counter untapping 2 artifact, makes Tezzeret even worse, only 3 loyalty counters after dark conf attack
Even the mox attack will never be available.

Tezzeret main weakness is "being under attack by creatures". This lead me to a conclusion : Tezzeret will not be good if just added in already existing builds - Control or Control-Combo - as a win condition. The win condition will be too fragile. 
If wanting to use Tezzeret efficently, I think you have to really build a new deck - not just adding Tezzeret and vault in existing ones.
Two constraints for that kind of deck building :
- be able to deal more efficently with creatures,
or
- have your own creature that can block one turn in order to protect Tezzeret.
If the build is not especially thought to address those two constraints, then I think Tezzeret's place may be "side". Main deck Tezzeret will be too situational (especially considering first turns of a tournament, when facing lots of fish/random aggro builds). "Side in" when playing against non aggro decks.

Up until now, I can only think to one type of deck that can auto include Tezzeret/Vault efficently in main : bomberman - or tinket based blue control decks. With Trinket and the artifact dealing with creatures, it should be able to protect Tezzeret.

EDIT : we could even think about adding in a Trinket/Tezzeret package, a 0CC artifact that can be used as a blocker if needed, some kind of card that is not really played in vintage right now, Shield Sphere for instance. I would be so glad seeing a vintage metagame with a wall being played (as in the very old old days, when I used to play 4 will-o'-the-wisp in order to be able to deal with my friend's shivan's dragons (i finally succeeded in obtaining my own shivan dragons, exchanging some of them against some moxes, bi lands and royal assassins...)

[Demonic Attorney]

Team Reflection Tez, Model B

2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Tinker

1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Night’s Whisper

2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
5 Fetchlands
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Interesting guess.  Shame we never get to face each other; I'd love to see how your predictive acumen plays out in a tournament match against me.   

As for the list itself, I'm not sure I'd run ToA in a blue-based control list without mass-artifact bounce.  I also don't think I'd run Sensei Top and EE in the same deck under most circumstances, as it just opens up additional facets of your strategy to Null Rod.  Still, very close to what I initially had in mind.

Do you think you'd need some measure of creatures in a Tez deck to protect him from attackers?  It's all theory, but I envision Tarmogoyfs kicking Tez right into the graveyard in one swing (thereby getting one of those elusive boosts from Planeswalkers), or Shop aggro running him over with Juggernauts, et al.  The advantage to a creature-based offense against Tez is that it gives you Strategy Superiority (for those of you who remember the promotion exam :p ).  Rather than bringing in conditional cards like Bolt or REB, large or disruptive attackers will always do something significant for you and double as Tez control.  Granted, Tez can still get Vault or Key before he dies, but it should buy significant time for those attackers to then turn their attentions to the opponent's life total. 

[pierce]

Really? No Flagstones of Trokair in your white stax list?

I understand you have to keep the optimal lists within the meandeck forums, but really? You're gonna some scrubs play 9 plains?

thats rough.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Dan won a Sapphire today with your Tezzeret list, and  he beat Tommy in the finals to do it.  All he changed was the 4 SB Tormod's went out for 4 Chalices, which were amazing.  He said Tinker-Colossus would have been just as good as Tezzeret/Time Vault in the main for the most part.  Nice job building another solid deck.

A highlight was game 2 of the finals where Dan ripped Lotus and cast a turn 2 Tezzeret, which made Tommy pick up his cards right there.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Dan won a Sapphire today with your Tezzeret list, and  he beat Tommy in the finals to do it.  All he changed was the 4 SB Tormod's went out for 4 Chalices, which were amazing.  He said Tinker-Colossus would have been just as good as Tezzeret/Time Vault in the main for the most part.  Nice job building another solid deck.

A highlight was game 2 of the finals where Dan ripped Lotus and cast a turn 2 Tezzeret, which made Tommy pick up his cards right there.

To clarify, I won with the mono-blue Tezzeret list. It was hilariously consistent and powered me through a load of 2-1 victories enroute to first place in the ICBM Open #7 (including played out and won finals).

It is a rough and random list, but basically wins 90% of the games it opens with Island + Mox. 14 counters + Ophidian draw engine = SO GOOD.

[Smmenen]

Dan won a Sapphire today with your Tezzeret list, and  he beat Tommy in the finals to do it.  All he changed was the 4 SB Tormod's went out for 4 Chalices, which were amazing.  He said Tinker-Colossus would have been just as good as Tezzeret/Time Vault in the main for the most part.  Nice job building another solid deck.

Unreal gas.

Nice work boys!

It is a rough and random list, but basically wins 90% of the games it opens with Island + Mox. 14 counters + Ophidian draw engine = SO GOOD.

Ain't nothing random 'bout it.  years of playing mono blue

[AngryPheldagrif]

Ain't nothing random 'bout it.  years of playing mono blue

Not rough and random in the deck so much as rough and random in me, the pilot. I picked up the deck having never played mono-blue in my life and not actually having played a game of Vintage since the last ICBM Open. I copy/pasted the list, swapped in Chalices (there was zero Ichorid and a decent chunk of combo), and added Fact or Fiction to reach 60 cards.

I beat GWR beats (which T8ed), lost to Ad Nauseum (1st turn killed on the draw followed by mulling into oblivion), beat GR hate, beat UBg Tezzeret, drew into T8, beat Stax in the T8, Confidant-Tezzeret in the T4, and TK's Uw control in the finals. The deck was gas all day. So. Good.

Of course, I don't intend to play Vintage until the next Open so my opinions and ideas are probably pretty useless.

[madlucas]

@AngryPheldagriff:
Could you please post your list?