GBW baghdad bob, aka canonist/sculler.dec

[vroman]

1 stripmine
1 wasteland
1 city brass
1 horizon canopy
1 riftstone portal
1 caves koilos
1 urborg tomb yawg
2 bayou
2 undiscovered paradise
3 mox GBW
4 aether vial
4 bazaar baghdad
1 maze ith
4 dark conf
4 targoyf
4 tidehollow sculler
4 ethersworn canonist
4 squee goblin nabob
4 thoughtseize
4 swords plowshares
2 gaddock teeg
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 zombie infestation
1 balance
1 life from loam
1 crop rotation
side
4 vexing shusher
4 faerie macabre
3 ray revelation
3 spurnmage advocate
1 darkblast

so far in testing this deck absolutely shreds the ad nauseum decks and combo in general. vexing shusher is so stupid. besides blue decks, also is clutch vs stax to evade chalice@2. w vial and shusher, the deck no longer cares about chalice at all. just dominates fish. in fact the spurnmages are probably overkill, though I do love them so. royal assassin for W, huzzah. take that akroma.

I'm inclined to agree with the critiques posted further down.  While your insight is appreciated, please make more of an effort to include explanation/better writing in these threads.  -DA

[zeus-online]

Hmm....why is this deck so amazing vs. combo?

For turn 1 disruption you have:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Wasteland
1 Strip mine

Some small chance of doing a turn 1 Gaddock teeg or Tidehollow.
And a decent chance of a turn 1 Cannonist.

Dosn't seem all that bad to me?

You do have alot against aggro and aggro-control though...And oath should be decent aswell!

/Zeus

[DarkfnTemplar]

Hmm....why is this deck so amazing vs. combo?

For turn 1 disruption you have:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Wasteland
1 Strip mine

Some small chance of doing a turn 1 Gaddock teeg or Tidehollow.
And a decent chance of a turn 1 Cannonist.

Dosn't seem all that bad to me?

You do have alot against aggro and aggro-control though...And oath should be decent aswell!

/Zeus

Lol, did you read two lines then write two lines?

@Poppa V, see other forum for response.

Verbal warning for violation of Rule 4, Lack of Content (spam, personal message)  -DA

[Tha Gunslinga]

Gaea's Blessing seems like a problem vs Spurnmage, which seems like a Maze of Ith with summoning sickness.  I don't really understand most of the card choices here, and I'm pretty sure Squee-Bazaar is too slow right now.

[Anusien]

Why Caves of Koilos over Scrubland?  For that point, you have 3 gold lands.  Seems pretty poor.

I've not had much good experience with Balance in decks full of creatures.  If you had more Zombie Infestations, I'd feel better about it but you only have the 1.

Isn't Cabal Therapy amazing in a deck of 16-20 creatures?

[Nydaeli]

Why Caves of Koilos over Scrubland?

Anti-Massacre tech, I believe.

[policehq]

Ethersworn Canonist is best supported by hard-counters and a decent clock, so you don't need to cast more spells, and it is a lot harder to kill or bounce him. A topdecked tutor or bounce, burn, spot removal allows a combo or control player to take the game. Since you're playing a bad mana-base anyway, you might as well play U/W/any color with a clock that sticks (not including Jotun Grunt, obviously).

But Caves of Koilos is anti-Massacre tech from ages ago. Now you just need to worry about Sudden Shock, Wipe Away, etc.

[beder]

Well, i don't truly understand the previous answers.
This build seems pretty nice.

Of course, it does not have more that 6 disruptions cards for turn one (+ the times one can play a disrupting creature turn one with the help of mana accelerators) but it does not mean it is not competitive.
- It has many efficent turn one play : disruption or aether vial (and with so many mana drains in the field, aether turn one is not a bad move)
- There are some very interesting synergies (bazaar squee/life engine, vial reducing the bazaar negative effect on development tempo, vial and canonist...)
- Being able to use at instant speed - thanks to vial - the Canonist effect (after a first spell is played) or the sculler (to discard the top deck tutored card) seems pretty interesting

When it comes to the mana base that looks pretty fragile, aether vial is pretty helfull.
When it comes to the clock, one 2/2 creature + a tarmo on board should be a a sufficent clock

Only one point is not adressed by this deck : tezzeret. Sword does not deal with it, no cards of the build can deal with it. Perhaps something has to be done about it main deck.
Edit : Gaddock Teeg can deal with Tezzeret, but that's not enough. Having one solution to tutor or search for, in order to deal with tezzeret during the turn you have before the game loss, seems pretty necessaryto me .
Edit again : in fact, with 16 2/2 or more creature and the planswalker rule, Tezzeret is perhaps not such a threat

[M.Solymossy]

Without even knowing the thread rules, this does violate writing skills as well as Lack of Content.    I don't understand how this is in Open and not Improvement.  Your whole gameplan is resolve Canonist and pray against combo?  How do you do well against Ad Naseum decks when, if they're playing correctly, they can just EOT a nauseum, draw about 10 cards, and hten cast a mass bounce spell (since the dudesweat's an artifact), and then just kill you.

this post is dissapointing..

[beder]

Well, i don't want to answer for vroman but reading the list, i don't feel like the gameplan against combo is "resolve canonist and pray".
Resolving a turn 2 Sculler (after a turn one thoughseize for instance), is not such a bad play against combo.
Resolving a turn 2 canonist is not such a bad play is not such a bad play against combo.
Resolving a turn 2 Gaadock teeg is not such a bad play against combo.

Resolving two pieces seems like a nice play.

I understand this build as a prison deck with many soft lock pieces. But to be truly honnest, I would prefer finding some room for 2 more duress effects in this build, and perhaps one more wasteland, in order to increase my turn one disruption pourcentage. Given that this decks best turns are going to be turn 2 but even more turn 3 (with vial online and so many 2CC disrupting creatures), the main difficulty will be not to loose during the 2 first turns.

I would perhaps remove 2 swords and the Balance for one darkblast main (in order to win the tarmo war, deal with the welder or dark conf and discard to bazaar) and 2 duress...

[LordHomerCat]

Without even knowing the thread rules, this does violate writing skills as well as Lack of Content.    I don't understand how this is in Open and not Improvement.  Your whole gameplan is resolve Canonist and pray against combo?  How do you do well against Ad Naseum decks when, if they're playing correctly, they can just EOT a nauseum, draw about 10 cards, and hten cast a mass bounce spell (since the dudesweat's an artifact), and then just kill you.

this post is dissapointing..

I mean, end step Ad Naus does cost a lot of mana if you can't use rituals (canonist in play).  However, I would think them winning on turn 1 or 2 would be a bit of a problem.

[Blitzbold]

Despite this being a post with disappointingly low content, the list which is basically an update to Dawn of the Dead, seems to be a nice starting point. I like the Canonist very much as well, but I think the main strength of DotD is the massive amount of discard it features. Sadly, Canonist ist contradictory to this strategy. A single discard spell won't stop decks like Long, so ist seems that you really want Canonist or Teeg asap in those matchups.

[sundering jerk]

Has Kataki been considered for the SB?

Ever have problems getting the right color?

[LotusHead]

Without even knowing the thread rules, this does violate writing skills as well as Lack of Content.    I don't understand how this is in Open and not Improvement.  Your whole gameplan is resolve Canonist and pray against combo?  How do you do well against Ad Naseum decks when, if they're playing correctly, they can just EOT a nauseum, draw about 10 cards, and hten cast a mass bounce spell (since the dudesweat's an artifact), and then just kill you.

this post is dissapointing..

Well, Vroman is a respected deckbuilder (UbaStax initially) who thinks outside the box, so we give him the benefit of the doubt.

He also builds upon previous "baghdad bob" builds which are near enough to Dawn of the Dead builds to be easily confused.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a little bit more elaboration on Tidehallow Sculler and Spurnmage Advocate, as neither has been discussed much on TMD yet and I would have to dig further to find out what they do or how they help the deck.

I have had Vexing Shusher shut down my Chalice plans by Lurker101 and Credmond, so I at least understand those.

Notwithstanding, AdNauseum has yet to prove it self in tourney play (unless iI missed a tourney report today).

Vroman, Elaborate, if you will.

[arctic79]

I think the discussion on this has been weak for a reason.  Compared to DotD this list is literally a pile in its current form.  I mean no disrespect, I'm all for new decks, but this should have been posted in improvement.

[M.Solymossy]

I must restate, I don't have any problems with Vroman...  He's a cool cat.  But I would like more elaboration.   Against Pitch Long, it seems like getting a Gaddock into play seems rough.  Cannonist is hit by all mass artifact bounce, which makes it slightly weaker.  Sculler doesn't seam strong at all against combo unless you can kill them before they bounce it, since they get the card back.

[vroman]

I was asked by someone I played against online to post my list here. I havent played against tezzeret yet, and since I posted this Ive discovered the stax match up needs a lot of help. so clearly artifact answers are sorely missing. so sorry for wasting your time, but yes, this does need work.
as for vs combo in general, the artifact-creature nature of sculler/ethersworn is not that much of a drawback, bc unlike stax, hurkyl's will probably just bounce 1 lock guy, so is functionally identical to chain of vapor or any other spot removal. basicaly what Ive played against so far is many tendrils variations, including ad nauseum, lots of fish variations, and lots of stax variations. I have probably 90% win rate vs combo/fish so far, which sounds outlandish, but is my honest results out of probably upwards of 40 games in the past two weeks. however, I have a decidely losing rate vs stax, despite switching out spurnmages for kataki.
another route I just started trying today is cutting squees. Ive discovered that aether vial is so incredibly good at making mana irrelevent, that I can count on d-conf+every land in the deck, to keep bazaar sufficiently operational, that squees are unnecesary. also since dryad is dead, the recurring blocker isnt necessary.
this frees up slots for duress, or my new favorite: ravens crime.

[eightywpm]

Well in the new build you use against stax, you might wanna consider throwing in a black lotus

[M.Solymossy]

  What you just said a few posts up

Thank you kindly for such a good response...  That's the vroman I know!

[DarkfnTemplar]

Here's my list with 0 testing. I like the base and sb better.

6 LoMoxDiamond (- Saph)
4 Fetches
2 Bayou
1 Riftstone
3 Scrubland
2 Waste
1 Strip
1 Swamp
4 Bazaar

1 Zombfest
4 Squee
1 Life from the loam
3 Vial

1 Vamp
1 Demonic
3 Swords
4 Seize
1 Balance

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
3 New Fiend
3 New Cannonist
2 Teeg

SB:
4 Extirpate
3 Null Rod
1 STP
3 Ray
3 Kataki
1 Oxidize

[pierce]

Here's my list with 0 testing. I like the base and sb better.

is it because I just took a logic midterm, or does everyone else see the fallacy here?

That said, can you elaborate on the fish matchup? I contend that fish is quite strong, and should have at least a coinflip. But what goes for 'fish' this days is at best a vague term.
When not sick, I would love to play a set of fish vs this on mws.

[the boogie man]

I've played some, and I'm not sure why you're running the sculler at all. mesmeric fiend does the same thing for a much better mana cost, being usable with an off color mox. I also think that duress does that things job way better. Null rod also seems really good right now, being good against combo, and probably the new tezzeret combo. and painter. and control slaver.

Bazaar does seem really slow, but with mana denial and ethersworn, you can do so much more than the oponent. especially under a zombiefest.

[DarkfnTemplar]

Here's my list with 0 testing. I like the base and sb better.

is it because I just took a logic midterm, or does everyone else see the fallacy here?

That said, can you elaborate on the fish matchup? I contend that fish is quite strong, and should have at least a coinflip. But what goes for 'fish' this days is at best a vague term.
When not sick, I would love to play a set of fish vs this on mws.

I can see where you're committing a fallacy of composition.

Yes, I can make assumptions at a list by looking at in just on paper. Mostly because I know what the cards do. I don't need to play test sb cards (I.E. no main synergy) I have played with for the last X years.

[Liam-K]

Here's my list with 0 testing. I like the base and sb better.

is it because I just took a logic midterm, or does everyone else see the fallacy here?

That said, can you elaborate on the fish matchup? I contend that fish is quite strong, and should have at least a coinflip. But what goes for 'fish' this days is at best a vague term.
When not sick, I would love to play a set of fish vs this on mws.

I can see where you're committing a fallacy of composition.

Yes, I can make assumptions at a list by looking at in just on paper. Mostly because I know what the cards do. I don't need to play test sb cards (I.E. no main synergy) I have played with for the last X years.

If you have ideas for a list being discussed, comparing the cards you're suggesting be switched and pointing out the advantages of your choice is how you contribute useful discussion.  What you've done is shroud that information in unneccecary repetition (the rest of the list), obscured the exchanges being made (by not mentioning what you remove), omitted all justification of your choices, and appended the disclaimer that your advise is based on pure speculation.  If you want people to believe you, you try to convince them.  If you don't care if people believe you, you keep your mouth shut.

as for vs combo in general, the artifact-creature nature of sculler/ethersworn is not that much of a drawback, bc unlike stax, hurkyl's will probably just bounce 1 lock guy, so is functionally identical to chain of vapor or any other spot removal

I think they have a point, though.  While what you say is true, the artifact type on these creatures turns a dead card into a good card and likely at least doubles a combo deck's answers to the card before you even consider the 2 for 1 possibility... and I imagine them sending back a ramped Vial as a free bonus is at least mildly aggrevatiing.

Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting.  -DA

[pierce]

Here's my list with 0 testing. I like the base and sb better.

is it because I just took a logic midterm, or does everyone else see the fallacy here?

That said, can you elaborate on the fish matchup? I contend that fish is quite strong, and should have at least a coinflip. But what goes for 'fish' this days is at best a vague term.
When not sick, I would love to play a set of fish vs this on mws.

I can see where you're committing a fallacy of composition.

Yes, I can make assumptions at a list by looking at in just on paper. Mostly because I know what the cards do. I don't need to play test sb cards (I.E. no main synergy) I have played with for the last X years.

Conclusion: i can make assumptions by just looking at a list on paper (edited for grammer)
P: I know what cards do.
P: I don't need to play test sb cards I have intimate knowledge with.

I would say that your argument is valid, but not sound. Making assumptions does little for anyone. taking a list without testing it, in a brand new metagame, and changing cards AND thinking it's better is just fucking clownshoes buddy. What is this? MTGsalvation? Who cares if you like it more, why on earth do your critiques improve the deck? What matchups change? Why the hell should I listen to you?

Cmon. i feel like posts such as yours actively worsen the forums as a whole. Hopefully i can somehow sway you to add more next time.

In terms of the deck, what are everyone's thoughts on seedtime out of the SB?

Wow, how did I miss this one?  Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flames) -DA

[DarkfnTemplar]

If you have ideas for a list being discussed, comparing the cards you're suggesting be switched and pointing out the advantages of your choice is how you contribute useful discussion.  What you've done is shroud that information in unneccecary repetition (the rest of the list), obscured the exchanges being made (by not mentioning what you remove), omitted all justification of your choices, and appended the disclaimer that your advise is based on pure speculation.  If you want people to believe you, you try to convince them.  If you don't care if people believe you, you keep your mouth shut.

What are you pissed about?

I'm sorry, I didn't know I had to point out the differences. I assumed you could read and compare/contrast.
Also, you are making a lot of assumptions.
#1 I wasn't giving expert advice. I was just posting a list that I liked better on paper as a possible list to test with. IF you really needed me to tell you the difference between the lists because you just looked over 20 lines of text, then you have a problem. I don't need to spoon feed you information like the scg deck contrast on deck finder.
What's my justification? I like the look better on paper. How did I come to this conclusion? Through experience and knowledge.
#2 I don't care if people believe me. This deck is not going to be very good if everyone plays something that considers these lists. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that V posted this on here in the first place. Perhaps because the chances of him playing at a major vintage tournament are slim?
#3 I'm not shrouding anything. I'm just throwing ideas out there. You said so yourself, "speculation." It's also called brainstorming.

If anyone should keep their mouth shut it should be you. All you have done is exacerbate the situation. If you would have asked nicely for justification, I would have given you my testing results. Now, I couldn't give a damn.

@Pierce- You're right, It's not sound. The deck in is it's infancy. You have to throw around ideas first before you start analyzing matchups.
Seedtime? Really? That card was too terrible for extended. You want some justification? I played medium green aggro in the blue dominated extended format with kamigawa being the last block. The deck wasn't too far off from this one. You play guys and equip with your mana there. Therefore Seedtime will never be played in the first 4 turns. If you are still alive by turn 5 in this format (playing fish/ aggro control), you most likely won. You could argue that aether vial frees up your mana, but then 8 of their blue spells won't be played and you'd most likely play another guy due to the high spell count in the deck.(There's your content moderators)
In conclusion, seedtime is either win more or a dead card.


But why mention seedtime? What is your justification on asking about it? Why should I care about it? Throwing around random ideas lessens the value of this forum as a whole.
Maybe I should have asked "what are everyone's thoughts on this list" preceding my list posting.

Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting (flames) -DA

[Demonic Attorney]

Please keep it civil, or else we'll be forced to close this thread.

[tomjoad]

a) As far as this deck having few answers to Tezzeret, I have to disagree. Even disregarding Gaddock Teeg, the deck has enough Grizzly Bears that getting an untap with Tezz in play is unlikely. Even if you have a Propaganda in play, no biggie. They only need to attack with one guy to keep Tezz off anything dangerous (he starts at 4, uses 2 to fetch Vault, a 2/2 can kill him from there). Now, if the Tezz player has Propaganda and Sower of Temptation in play, that's probably going to end it. Still, the general weakness of Tezzeret v. creatures is why the Reflection Oath deck is the only Tezz deck I've really gotten into.

b) I'm glad somebody posted a deck that lets us talk about Tidehollow Sculler. For those not familiar with Shards of Alara, Sculler is a 2/2 Mesmeric Fiend that costs  . In Northern California, it seems like everybody plays combo or Fish. I am usually on the combo side, so I'm not super familiar with the playing of Fish, but Sculler seems like an excellent card for them. If people are cutting Meddling Mages because they don't do enough (and I've seen several successful decks cutting the Pikula) then Sculler seems like an ideal replacement. It disrupts combo, it can neuter Welder in a way that Duress/Thoughtsieze cannot (RFG rather than going to grave) and can generally just mess with anybody.

[Neonico]

The plan with tezzerets against 2/2 is never to drop Tezz and fetch time vault....
It's winning through your second gameplan : Tinker for robot or whatever tutor for vault before dropping tezz....

Against only 1 2/2, you can also build a 5 counters tezzeret in 2 turns before a lethal swing....

[tomjoad]

The plan with tezzerets against 2/2 is never to drop Tezz and fetch time vault....
It's winning through your second gameplan : Tinker for robot or whatever tutor for vault before dropping tezz....

Against only 1 2/2, you can also build a 5 counters tezzeret in 2 turns before a lethal swing....

Yeah, I was actually responding to this post above, but I didn't quote it.

Only one point is not adressed by this deck : tezzeret. Sword does not deal with it, no cards of the build can deal with it. Perhaps something has to be done about it main deck.
Edit : Gaddock Teeg can deal with Tezzeret, but that's not enough. Having one solution to tutor or search for, in order to deal with tezzeret during the turn you have before the game loss, seems pretty necessaryto me .

Perhaps if I had quoted it, I would have seen his second edit:

Edit again  : in fact, with 16 2/2 or more creature and the planswalker rule, Tezzeret is perhaps not such a threat

Anyway, Dawn of the Dead/Fish/Bagdahd Bob rarely have just one creature, so Tezz is nearly always a dead man. I just hope my Oath of Druids doesn't get Scullered away from me so my 2nd win con can do it.