[Deck Discussion] GI's (Hadley) Control Tezzeret

[Eastman]

Dosn't voltaic key get stronger with the inclusion of intuition?
Intuitioning for key, vault and lotus followed by a will or tutor for will is a pretty inexpensive win (Mana-wise).

Trinket Mage is actually pretty good against Fish.  Even trading him in combat is a 0-for-1, and whatever he grabs ignores Canonist.  Blocking for tezz is a not irrelevant either.  Jotun Grunt seems to be showing up again, and trinket->tcrypt is occasionally an unorthodox solution to that as well.  I just wish he could fetch Scroll Rack.

I prefer storm variants but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable bringing ad nauseam into a field infested with fish these days.  Bring your slaughter pacts.

I want to agree pretty strongly about Trinket.  In the current environment Trinket is used as a blocker quite frequently, particularly to protect tezzeret.  One thing that I like about this deck is its combination of stack and board threats, and by being a board threat himself and finding you another, I think he adds a lot.  One thing people often forget - even a great meta is probably 1/5 scrub/suboptimal/budget decks.  Those decks almost always have a bunch of creatures and null rods.  So even in the environments where those types of decks aren't top 8ing - they're still something you need to beat to make top 8. 

I'll weigh in on voltaic key - I've been testing with it a bit today and I like it as well.  It combos with sol ring, mana crypt, and sensei's divining top, so it is rarely dead.  The combo with top is actually quite strong.  More importantly, it gives the deck a more explosive line of play - hands frequently pop up that have vault or key in them, and a tutor as well.  In those situations it is very easy to grab the random win, which is nice.

[Smmenen]

2) Nothing in the list struck me as stand out or particularly innovative.   AK + Intuition + Trinket Mage package.    It seems like just one of many possible permutations. 

Right...except none of us have much tournament experience with Tezzeret.  And no one's presented a list like this.  And that discussing permutations is exactly what this thread is about.

That's not really an exception to what I said.   Eastman asked me what I thought.

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ponder
1 MysticalTutor

I know these are certainly top choices, but I don't see these as auto-includes in the same way as merchant scroll or vampiric tutor, care to explain?

Sure.   Your point is taken, but "auto-inclusiveness" does not mean the same thing across the board. Ancestral Recall does not have the same level of "auto-inclusiveness" as Merchant Scroll.  But at the end of the day, and after all of the tournament results are in, I consider Ponder and Mystical to be auto-includes.  I put Gifts slightly more at the margin in the article.  It's not an auto include, but I consider it a strong rebuttable presumption in favor of its inclusion. 

[The Atog Lord]

While Steve may not find this list "innovative," I believe that it is. I've tested a large pile of Tezzeret builds, and yet not a single one of the half dozen or so builds that I came up with have both Trinket Mage and Intuition. Therefore, given that a build of this relative configuration never struck me, I'll call it innovative.

Ancestral Recall does not have the same level of "auto-inclusiveness" as Merchant Scroll.

Apparently, Steve, you don't know what it means to be an "auto-include." An "auto-include" is a card without which a deck of a given archetype is either misbuilt, or is no longer a deck of that archetype. For example, Bazaar of Baghdad is an auto-include in a Vintage Ichorid deck. If you build an Ichorid deck without that card, then you've misbuilt your deck. Time Vault is an auto-include for a Tezzeret deck; you can't have a correct Magic deck which includes Tezzeret but not Time Vault.

Now, is Ancestral an auto-include for a Tezzeret deck? Sure. Is it an auto-include for a Magic deck in general? No. It doesn't belong in manaless Ichorid decks.

So, how about Gifts Ungiven or Merchant Scroll? Those aren't auto-include cards for Tezzeret decks either. Our Tezzeret Oath decks don't run Gifts Ungiven and I don't think they should. And they're certainly Tezzeret decks in the sense that they run Tezzeret and even run Mana Drain to support him. Therefore, Gifts Ungiven is not an auto-include in a Tezzeret deck.

[Smmenen]

While Steve may not find this list "innovative," I believe that it is. I've tested a large pile of Tezzeret builds, and yet not a single one of the half dozen or so builds that I came up with have both Trinket Mage and Intuition. Therefore, given that a build of this relative configuration never struck me, I'll call it innovative.

Ancestral Recall does not have the same level of "auto-inclusiveness" as Merchant Scroll.

Apparently, Steve, you don't know what it means to be an "auto-include."

The term "auto-include" was GI's term, I was elaborating on what I meant using his terminology.

My claim was that there are about 10-11 restricted blue and black spells that will probably be included in any optimal, multi-color, Drain based Tez list:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ponder
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
-----
1 Gifts Ungiven

Whether I should have included Gifts in that list is, I agree, debatable.  I could have distinguished in my article between "auto-includes/likely includes" and "strong contenders."  I would put Gifts and Fact in the latter category and the first 9 cards in the former category.   

EDIT:

When Gifts was Spoiled, I came up with a similar list of parameters and approach to deck design.   

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9963.html

Components Common to All Gifts Lists - the Gifts Shell:
Every Gifts list has a common core of cards. When you boil the deck down to its shared components, we see that there are, at most, eleven slots to play with. Forty-nine slots remain shared in all variants because they are viewed, justifiably, as requisite components.

All of the Gifts lists share these cards:

1) 24-26 Mana Sources with 24-25 being the norm
2) 4 Force of Will, 4 Mana Drains, and 4 Brainstorm
3) The 4 Gifts Targets: Yawg Will, Recoup, Tinker and one other component (either Mana Severance or Burning Wish)
4) The actual win condition (Usually Belcher or Colossus)
5) At least two Gifts
6) 1 Ancestral Recall, 1 Time Walk, 1 Demonic Tutor and 1 Mystical Tutor
7) Most have one Fact or Fiction

In that article, I then canvassed the two dominant approaches to Gifts:
1) SSB
2) The European/Canadian approach

In addition, I showed my Intuition build.

Finally, I unveiled Meandeck Gifts.

It turned out that there were other approaches to Gifts.  Later on that year, we came up with Gifts Oath.   But, still, the core 45+ cards remained the same from build to build.

While Steve may not find this list "innovative," I believe that it is. I've tested a large pile of Tezzeret builds, and yet not a single one of the half dozen or so builds that I came up with have both Trinket Mage and Intuition. Therefore, given that a build of this relative configuration never struck me, I'll call it innovative.

I used the words "stand out" or "particularly innovative."   Trinket Mage and Intuition were both on the list of cards that I had considered, although with many others, some of which are listed in my article.   I don't think that the use of both in the same list, just because you or I did not draw up a list with both qualifies as particularly innovative.   This list, actually, seems quite generic in the sense that each of the cards in this deck were on the short list of cards that had been considered and, once you go with the Intuition + AK engine, literally 90% of the deck builds itself.   The variance in the last 10% is the small, marginal cards like Fire/Ice and then the Trinket Mage package and some toolbox answers there. 

In contrast, Oath Tez is an option I had not considered.  I would call that "stand out." 

[The Atog Lord]

Steve, thanks for clarifying.

Out of this list:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ponder
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

I don't think that Mystical Tutor or Vampiric Tutor ought to be included in the auto-include list. I seldom include both Mystical and Vampiric tutor in a deck that I am building because I strongly dislike the card disadvantage, and I also really don't like having both in my hand at once. I'll play one or the other, but usually not both. And which I play depends on the exact configuration of the maindeck and sideboard. In a vacuum, I like how Mystical Tutor can pitch. Whereas, if I am playing a build with both Time Vault and Key, then I would play Vampiric Tutor instead.

[zeus-online]

Am i the only one who does not feel that ponder is an auto-include? I never really find it to be amazing and often cut it.
It's never really bad, just never really amazing either....it's not brainstorm folks!

/Zeus

[hauntedechos]

Certainly Ponder is not Brainstorm;  however the card digs as deep and depending on what you draw into, you still have a "brainstormy" feel, in terms of placing, or hiding what you would like to come next.  Ponder to me is still a very strong card and with the absence of x4 Brainstorm is an auto include to me.  At  , it's hard for me to come up with a debate that would see me not including it in any  deck I build.

On other matters, I have been looking at a  , , , build that houses a Volcanic in the Sb, with  options.  The Sb then contains the obvious  solutions.  This approach is inspired by Becker and something that he had said to me once, about liking an additional land and the options that the colour brings for given match ups.  Clearly this list was build on meta considerations and worked out great.  None the less, it has also been worked out that all meta's are not the same and thusly I feel that 4th colour options can be housed in the SB. I would like to hear what the great minds feel about this approach.

Haunted.

[arctic79]

I played with Bongo's list today with only a few cards changed.  It was a house all day.  A small tourney but I still went 6-0 swiss, and made it to the finals losing to standstill.dec with too many counter spells to battle through but took him to three games.
I'm not 100% sold on Painter/grindstone as a plan B, I would have really like more draw spells as I often found myself top decking for a kill or answer.  As for getting TEZ out early it was pretty straight forward with Mana Drain, draining into him turn 3-4.
Do note that there was no real combo deck at all so to see how this build holds up is unknown at this time.  The only advantage I really got from painter/grindstone was if I played an early painter, my opponents automatically targeted it and grindstone with hate and counter spells.
As for which Robot to run, I ran 7/10 but found myself wanting trisk or DSC more often then not.
For sure I would run this deck again in a heartbeat.

[c dizzle]

I developed a Tez deck independent of this thread and it is VERY close to the build presented here. I had originally went with Library, but settled on Academy Ruins instead. I also did not run Time Walk (it was rarely useful in my testing) or Yawgmoth's Will. I know that decision is somewhat controversial, but I almost never needed to recur any cards from the graveyard, especially with Academy Ruins. If my opponent got rid of my Time Vault and I didn't have Ruins, I just switched to the Tinker/Colossus win. I also ran a Voltaic Key. If your opponent incorrectly names Tez with a Pithing Needle (a really common sideboard answer around here), you can still get infinite turns with Key. Plus it can be searched out with Trinket Mages (I also ran two and feel like that is the correct number). My build also ran 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress.

I ran it in a small local tournament this weekend and didn't lose a single game, rolling Stax (twice), a bad Goblins build, Helm combo, and Fish. I would like to have played against Gob-lines since that deck is an absolute house, but I played against a Food Chain build.

[c dizzle]

Sorry for the second post. I also ran TFK as my primary draw engine, not Intuition-AK.

Also, I'll chime in on the innovative argument. We're playing a deck built around a card that was so obvious in it's synergy with Time Vault that nothing is "innovative" about the deck at all. It's just obvious. We're all slapping an obvious combo into various control shells and trying to act like we've invented the wheel. The deck presented in this post is SO innovative that I (and others) came up with similar builds independently with the only real differences being the draw engine. Would it be "innovative" to add Strategic Planning? Not really, but someone will so that they can feel "innovative". Should we feel special by playing a deck that was patently obvious to anyone that's played Vintage for any length of time? Not really. Is it still good enough that it is a tier-one strategy? Yep. Should it continue to be "refined" (as opposed to "innovated")? Of course.

You don't have to "innovate" to build a great deck. Just my $0.02.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I developed a Tez deck independent of this thread and it is VERY close to the build presented here. I had originally went with Library, but settled on Academy Ruins instead. I also did not run Time Walk (it was rarely useful in my testing) or Yawgmoth's Will. I know that decision is somewhat controversial, but I almost never needed to recur any cards from the graveyard, especially with Academy Ruins. If my opponent got rid of my Time Vault and I didn't have Ruins, I just switched to the Tinker/Colossus win. I also ran a Voltaic Key. If your opponent incorrectly names Tez with a Pithing Needle (a really common sideboard answer around here), you can still get infinite turns with Key. Plus it can be searched out with Trinket Mages (I also ran two and feel like that is the correct number). My build also ran 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Duress.

Very interesting.  Can you elaborate on a few points?

-For Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will, which cards were the 59th and 60th cards that pushed them out?  Maybe you didn't need recursion outside Ruins, but Yawgmoth's Will is a little more comprehensive than this.  Similarly, there are things that Time Walk does that, for example, the 4th duress effect probably can't do.
-What kind of utility/removal did you run besides counters and duress effects?  You mention pithing needle being a big metagame answer, and seemed to play against a lot of aggro/fish/stax.  What kind of cards did you play that affected the board?
-Was there anything specific that made you go with TFK over Intuition/AK?

[Rush]

I think Stifle-Naught could (at least) find a place in this deck.  I know the deck is already looking fairly tight, however, if you are trying to run a control-deck here, I think Stifle could be of much use to you, and getting to throw 1-2 Naughts in there would probably not be a bad idea either.  I will admit that I have been out of the Vintage loop for awhile, but the last time I played, Stifle was amazing, as a resolved spell stops: FETCHLANDS, Tangle Wire, Chalice, Titan (including your own) and Triskelion's abilities, and Gaea's Blessing; and at least stalls Welder, Oath, Storm, Bazaar, random Equipment, and Counterbalance.  I would try running 3 Stifle and 1 Naught main.

Gush anyone?  I would like to see it in there personally.

[c dizzle]

  -For Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will, which cards were the 59th and 60th cards that pushed them out? 

They were moved to make room for the Dureess/Thoughtseize suite.

  Maybe you didn't need recursion outside Ruins, but Yawgmoth's Will is a little more comprehensive than this.

I completely agree. But this deck isn't throwing instant after instant into the graveyard expecting to be replayed. I found Will incredibly underwhelming in this deck. Where it shines in TPS, it was a card I never wanted to see in this deck.

  Similarly, there are things that Time Walk does that, for example, the 4th duress effect probably can't do. 

Time Walk would be perfect to play the turn you played Tez and brought out Time Vault. The problem is that you use up your resources in getting Tez down. By resources, I mean mana and disruption. Your mana is used up playing Tez. Your disruption (i.e. Duress effects) clears the way to get Tez down (another reaon why I like Duress effect #4 over Time Walk).

  -What kind of utility/removal did you run besides counters and duress effects?  You mention pithing needle being a big metagame answer, and seemed to play against a lot of aggro/fish/stax.  What kind of cards did you play that affected the board?   

I ran Tormods Crypt, Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor as singletons in the mainboard. Though it is not a disruption piece, I also ran a singleton Top as a way to search out answers as well.

  -Was there anything specific that made you go with TFK over Intuition/AK?   

There was. This deck plays heavy control and then switches to combo mode quickly. You control the first couple of turns and then win. For a deck that changes roles so quickly, the ability to gain quick card advantage is important. With Intuition/AK, you pay three mana to get you a card that gets you three cards. With TFK, you pay three mana to get you three cards. I understand that the second AK you play gets you four cards, but being able to win quickly matters more to this deck than long-term card advantage. I also think that Intuition is underutilized in a deck like this. With so many singleton answers, Intuition can't do what it does best- getting you the card you need to get out of a spot. It's much better in a Helm deck where you run several three- or four-ofs.

Thirst also has a nice synergy with Academy Ruins, getting you back the artifact you pitched if you really need it.

Hope those responses help explain my choices effectively.
 
 
 

[Eastman]

I completely agree. But this deck isn't throwing instant after instant into the graveyard expecting to be replayed. I found Will incredibly underwhelming in this deck. Where it shines in TPS, it was a card I never wanted to see in this deck.

  Similarly, there are things that Time Walk does that, for example, the 4th duress effect probably can't do. 

Time Walk would be perfect to play the turn you played Tez and brought out Time Vault. The problem is that you use up your resources in getting Tez down. By resources, I mean mana and disruption. Your mana is used up playing Tez. Your disruption (i.e. Duress effects) clears the way to get Tez down (another reaon why I like Duress effect #4 over Time Walk).

I can certainly see that Yawgmoth's Will is much better with AK3 and AK4 in the graveyard.  In your TFK build you aren't going to have them to cast and TFK on a will turn is sort of a waste.  Yawgmoth's Will was probably also hurt by not having time walk around to recast.  That said, I think it is still much better than a fourth duress effect.  Yawg Will is the most broken card in the game, it makes all your tutors better and opens up an enormously important line of play. 

As far as Time Walk, I also think it is just too strong to go without.  It is just a much more powerful effect than an extra duress or something, and just as with Yawg Will, it is a powerful and unique 1-off which, because of the tutors in the deck, is really good to have kicking around inside your deck for when you need it.  The 3rd or 4th duress doesn't help so many other cards in your deck or open up your options in the same way.



Oh and on the innovation point, I've been avoiding weighing in for awhile.  I never said this deck was innovative, bragged about innovation, or asked for anyone's opinion. I just posted a list so that we could get talking about it.  I even used the word 'variant' to describe it specifically because I wanted to indicate that I thought it wasn't anything particularly new.

It was with that backdrop that Menendian decided to hop on and tell us that he didn't think it was innovative.  Gee, thanks for the input.  Well, I don't think it's particularly innovative either, but I didn't post it looking for anyone's opinion on that matter.  I just thought we could discuss how to make it a better deck.  Arguments about how innovative something is are just a waste of time, and are more likely to lead to a flame war than anything else. 

[c dizzle]

I can certainly see that Yawgmoth's Will is much better with AK3 and AK4 in the graveyard.  In your TFK build you aren't going to have them to cast and TFK on a will turn is sort of a waste.

This argument is probably the best one for the Intuition/AK engine. Though I really think it comes down to style. I would guess that you like to play heavy control where I use control as a way to aggressively set up a combo. Individual play style really shines through in how players build this deck.

Yawg Will is the most broken card in the game, it makes all your tutors better and opens up an enormously important line of play.

The statement is totally true. It feels weird arguing for excluding Will, but for this build I am sure that it's the right call no matter how wrong it sounds. I never wanted it when I drew it during testing. It seemed like a stupid call to cut it, but the more I tested, the better the decision felt.

As far as Time Walk, I also think it is just too strong to go without.

Conventional wisdom says that Time Walk is almost an auto-include (I'm scared to use that term on this thread now) with Tinker/Colossus. All I can say is that I excluded it purely as a concern of opportunity cost. I considered what would win me more games- having Echoing Truth and Chain of Vapor in the main or only one bounce spell and Time Walk. I decided that the bounce mattered more. I certainly could be wrong on that call, but my experience tells me the bounce is the way to go. This perception is admittedly colored by playing Dragon a lot and needing to find a way to bounce a problematic permanent to go off which may be the incorrect perspective for Tez. The perception is also colored by the presence of a build of Gob-Lines that I helped develop in my local metagame. Bouncing a turn-one Frogtosser Banneret or Goblin Warchief or any other Goblin if they play any artifact mana is the key to keeping a turn-two Earwig Squad from hitting the table. As you well know, one prowled Earwig Squad = GG for this deck pre-board. Two bounce spells are better than one in this instance. That said, I'm still not sure that I'm right, but what I can say is that a real though process went into the decision...

[LordHomerCat]

Time Walk in Tezzeret is pretty important though, as it allows you to actually win without Tinker-ing against anyone who plays a 2 power creature.  It seems terrible to play an extra duress or something over a Time Walk when people actually play stuff like Dark Confidants, Tarmogoyfs, fish of various kinds, etc.  Pretty much any dude (or even worse, multiple dudes so you can't save yourself with Etruth or Chain) makes your Tez essentially a dead card without a Time Walk to actually win the game with.  Will also seems rather important there, since you can burn Walk early in the game and then later, when you are ready to win, just cast Will into Walk and Tez and end the game on the spot.  I played a bunch of games against Soly with a variant of the GWS Tez deck (with Intuition AK main, which was terrible when I played it but that's a whole other post) and the other deck was basically Keeper with Goyfs, and when I played Tez probably 75% of my wins were just from tutoring up Will and ending the game on the spot.  More than a few of the others involved Time Walk plus Tez (because of maindeck Goyfs opposite).  I could not imagine piloting the deck without them.

I hate to sound close minded or whatever, but there is no way Time Walk should not be in the deck when it allows for so many extremely important lines of play against decks with creatures.  In a similar vein, Will is incredibly important against other Drain decks (especially because they have one of their own), allowing you to easily set up an overwhelming turn regardless of what the have going on.  Additionally, it makes Intuition much less awful, but that might be a personal bias as I find 5 mana to draw 3 cards really junky compared to just tutoring up cards to win with Will on the spot.  I appreciate that you've tested and such, but if you never wanted to have Will when you drew it, I'm pretty sure you should be playing the deck differently because the card is insane, and was as ridiculous as I expected it to be when I played with it this weekend.

[T00L]

This thread is crafted from the very essence of WIN. I just wanted to let all participating know.

[Liam-K]

I always found one of the major applications of time walk in a big mana drain deck is that it lets you turn your second main phase into your opponent's end step without telling them.  Starting a counterwar or otherwise announcing something that you'd respond to differently if you realized your opponent was going to cast Walk and untap right after paints someone into a corner pretty hard.  Along the same lines, it can let you effectively exploit an opening twice if you manage to start your turn with room to play.

This is aside from the fact that land drops are vital currency to this sort of deck.

Also, setting up with DT, Intuition, Gifts or similar very often requires passing the turn for mana reasons even if you're going to act on the endstep.  Such plays are frequently suppressed by the threat of that turn you're about to give your opponent.  Time Walk solves these situations.

I haven't been testing with Tezzeret but I used and loved time walk in Gifts even when I had iron man banished to the sideboard.  I can't imagine duress paying off more for the slot.

[The Atog Lord]

I don't even see how anyone could possibly consider for even a brief moment excluding Time Walk from this deck. I'd go on about why Time Walk is good, but we all already know that. Time Walk is an auto-include in any Mana-Drain deck.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will

Not to quash discussion of unique approaches, but let's assume that barring strong new evidence these guys are in, and the discussion along this line can stop.

with Intuition AK main, which was terrible when I played it but that's a whole other post

I'd like to hear more about this.  It seems the majority of players (especially many of the ones with a lot of experience under their belts) prefer TFK over intuition and even recent testing bears this out for them.  My experience has been largely the opposite.  Can people weigh in on whether they think it's:

1) Metagame considerations (e.g. more aggro means not having time to pay 5 mana for cards with intuition, etc)
2) My misplaying of TFK
3) Others misplaying of Intuition

I'd like to have some candid dialogue here, because I'm very open to the possibility of #3 and see it as unlikely to be #2 (although at face value, intuition seems to be a more skill intensive card than TFK).

To flesh out my perspective on this, I just really find TFK's effect to be underwhelming unless:

1) Playing with graveyard enablers
2) Playing an aggressive control deck where filtering>advantage (which seems not be the case with Tez)
3) Playing a deck with heavy reliance on Tinker>DSC

For three mana I find it rarely offers card advantage, or it does so at the expense of mana expansion, and it reduces the effective number of 'threats' in the deck.  By saying this, I'm well aware of the double-edged sword.  The intuition/AK engine requires a lot of slots, however, when a deck has the room, it also increases the number of actionable spells in the deck (I find this to be very important in the control and combo matchups).  The alternative to the extra 2-3 slots in other control lists are either metagame cards, or FoF and Gifts.  These are very powerful cards, but they both baloon the curve of a deck, and allow your opponent to factor into your fate to a much larger degree.  I find that with FoF a good opponent will always make the effect overcosted relative to what you get.  Gifts is different and much more powerful, but I find it's diminished in restriction and especially without Merchant Scroll as a 4'of.  Additionally, I can't stress enough how important intuition being a tutor is.  Being able to get exactly what you want instead of just hoping on the top 3 has seemed to win me many, many games.  The tutoring power of intuition combined with the card advantage of AK, all packaged with a lower mana threshold make it work for me.

[LordHomerCat]

In the games I played against Mike, when he was piloting the Tez deck then he almost always used intuition to get AK's.  To be fair, I think I ended up pretty far ahead on games by the end of the set, although I'm not going to say that's because of AK or something.  The thing is, when I grabbed the Tez deck, I think I cast Intuition for AK only once time in like a dozen or so games.  Every other time it was for mana (because I had Will/tutor in hand) or just cards that won (usually 3 Tez since he ran 3) as my Intuition resolved, and most of the time it resolved off drain mana anyway.  I never found myself in a position where I was far enough ahead to resolve Intuition without trouble and just wanted to draw 3 cards rather than win the game, other than the one time I had to get AK because I had like 3 mana sources and no draw spells or mana in hand.  Any time I had a reasonable hand, I just wanted to win the game instead of fooling around playing AK's and crap and wasting time and giving him a chance to get back in.  I don't know that Thirst really accomplishes this any better, but I do like the idea that you can play it through Tormod's Crypt if you are behind (which Intuition is awful against) and that you can try more than once to draw some cards.  Additionally, hardcasting AK's without intuition in hand is really crappy and just feels like a waste of slots.

TFK definitely has drawbacks, and I found myself constantly hungry for more mana in Tez (since Tez himself costs a million and all) which makes pitching artifacts worse for sure.  I could see playing with 3 Deep Analysis over the AK's, since it lets you draw cards more easily without Intuition and gives a steadier stream of draw.  It is kinda crappy against Aggro  for sure, but in that matchup I'm pretty sure Intuition should just be setting up Yawg Will so you can Walk and cast Tez.  As a side note, the Tez deck did not have a tinker main (or a creature) so the only win was Tez activation, if that makes any difference.

[bluemage55]

For metagame considerations, you also left out playing against artifact mana denial.  

Against Chalice @ 0, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, etc., TfK pitching a mox is virtually +2 CA for 2U (cast TfK -1, pitch a dead card -0, draw 3 cards +3).

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

The thing for me is: Intuition is a strong card, often acting as instant-demonic for 2U, but searching out a recall that costs 1U just seems underwhelming. As well as having AKs in hand (I'm talking about the magic card). Also, if you cast Intu--> AK and that doesn't win on the spot, you'll have very few draw spells left in the deck. (One AK, Brainstom, Recall.)
Therefore, I'm with TfK to just play one spell, grave-independant, dig for 3 and go 2 or 1 up. I agree that TfK is crap, but AKs just suck worse. Also, after one TfK, you are able to play another one. Also, it requires less slots and is never a dead card (as the first AK is).

[arctic79]

From my experience with the deck Timewalk and Yawg are no brainers.  As for the TFK vs. Int.AK, I often found myself with the TFK build wanting more draw/search.  Maybe The answer is not Int.AK but adding 2 Impulse along with TFK as a filter.  Like I mentioned in my previous post I found Painter/Grindstone very underwhelming and would likely replace those 4 cards with 2 Implulse, 1 Gifts, 1 Chain of Vapour/Echoing Truth.  The gifts would be real nice for the Robot plan B.  It's not so much about card draw it's finding about finding the cards to win, which is why I think Impulse is the way to go.

[Grand Inquisitor]

voltaic key is good if you have Trinket Mage.

I've come around 180 on voltaic key.  It won me two games today that i think just about any other slot wouldn't.  One of these games was a match win against the new Ad Storm deck (which is very strong).  I may even consider running it without trinket mages, since it makes black tutors and intuition that much stronger.

As for intuition, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  It's not even close for me vs. TFK.

[Smmenen]

voltaic key is good if you have Trinket Mage.

I've come around 180 on voltaic key. 

Me three.  I watched Doug play it yesterday to amazing effect.  He got to draw two cards with Top, generated a bunch of additional mana with it, and, most importantly, made every Tutor and every topdeck a GIANT threat, since a topdecked Time Vault would be GG. 

[Eastman]

voltaic key is good if you have Trinket Mage.

I've come around 180 on voltaic key. 

Me three.  I watched Doug play it yesterday to amazing effect.  He got to draw two cards with Top, generated a bunch of additional mana with it, and, most importantly, made every Tutor and every topdeck a GIANT threat, since a topdecked Time Vault would be GG. 

Not to pile on, but I agree totally with both Steve's.  It's in my list for the foreseeable future. 

[c dizzle]

I have been working on this deck a lot. I discovered several things since my last post. Time Walk is too good to leave out. Several times I found myself helpless with an Underground Sea, an off-color mox and a Mana Drain in hand. The Time Walk brought my Drains on line effectively on turn one after getting a second "turn one" land drop. I rarely found enough mana to play Tez and then Walk, but the tempo it bought me was priceless. I won't play the deck without it again.

Another piece of tech that I found and shocked my testing partners with was Transmute Artifact. It was soooo good. Imagine my surprise this morning when I saw the new Meandeck Tez deck and found that, though the tech was found on my own, I wasn't the only person to discover it. My teammate just laughed and said, "I told you you'd found some great tech- even Meandeck's using it."

I still firmly maintain my insistence on excluding Will. I truly believe that it is not the right call in this deck. I have tested and tested and haven't changed my mind.

Key is absolutely insane. I win with Key just as often as I win with Tez.

I've also switched from 2 Duress & 2 Thoughtseize to 4 Thoughtseize. This is purely a metagame call since Goblines is a relevant deck here.

[skrwbal]

which is better 2 or 3 color buuld the 3rd obv being R. if you do decide to run the red would you run the fire/ice in the main or what? just some questions

[Grand Inquisitor]

Time Walk is too good to leave out...I still firmly maintain my insistence on excluding Will.

I don't doubt you have reasons to exclude Yawgmoth's Will.  This thread is not about that.  Given the premises that the rest of us are working from, it would be much more constructive to start your own thread on a Will-less Tezzeret list; I'd be happy to contribute if I can.  Thanks.

Transmute Artifact

My problem with this card is that the real card you need to get is time vault (since you can run as many voltaic keys/trinket mages as you please) which means that you need  plus at least  to activate the key.  This is the exact cost it takes to play tezzeret; this means you've got to already have the key and it's two cards instead of one.  For comparable mana and one fewer cards, I'd rather just play another Tezzeret.  Also, if they have artifact removal for the time vault (or key), your other piece is largely useless.  Whereas Tezzeret still can fetch out more toys, or untap your mana, or, eventually, create an army of 5/5 artifact guys.

which is better 2 or 3 color buuld the 3rd obv being R

I've actually also been testing three color versions using UBG.  This is really metagame dependent.  The original list in this thread was geared towards aggro/hate decks and canonist control.  At least in New England things have moved more towards Ad Nauseam and an even higher concentration of Tezzeret control decks.

I still think that intuition>ancient grudges is really powerful, so I'd stick with the four color list.  Outside of this there's a very wide selection of considerations.  Usually I start with how to stop combo (red>REBs, green>duress, white>canonist&mindcensor).  From here you look at what you want to beat and look at trade offs and what your manabase will bear.