[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays - Crazy Stax!

[meadbert]

If an attribute on a permanent that has left play is checked, then you use the value when it left play, thus if you Weld out Smokestack with 3 counters on it during your upkeep you still must sacrifice three permanents.

[Random Noob]

Today I test around with 3 Pithing Needle, which can come for new Targets when bounced, and 2 Duplicant. Duplicant and Transmuter is a good thing, you can clean up the Table fast from Welders and such awful things.

[Sporkcore]

I know that I should probably read the whole thread to see if this was discussed, but has anyone tried Uba Mask in any of these builds? You can create a nice Uba lock using the Transmuter, bouncing the Mask and returning it to play. Uba Mask would also allow an ok draw engine of Bazaars.

[nineisnoone]

Blue Smoke
4   Mishra's Workshop      
4   Volcanic Island      
4   Steam Vent      
1   Island
2   Ghost Quarter      
2   Ancient Tomb
1   Strip Mine      
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring   
1   Black Lotus   

1   Darksteel Colossus
1   Duplicant
4   Faerie Mechanist   
4   Master Transmuter

1   Tinker   
4   Tangle Wire
1   Trinisphere   
1   Ancestral Recall
3   Smokestack
4   Force of Will   
2   Repeal   
4   Meditate   
1   Mindlock Orb   
1   Crucible of Worlds
1   Time Vault
1   Voltaic Key

Not sure what the SB should be yet, but probably some REB. 

Repeal and Meditate both work really well here. 
Repeal gives you a draw and can bounce opposing Null Rods and can even return your own Smokestack or Tangle Wire to your hand, allowing you to avoid save it and avoid getting hindered by it.
Mediate works well with the with Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

I cut the stereotypical 4rd Crucible because bouncing with Transmuter is plenty effective so you don't need Crucible specifically to recur it as much.
Mindlock I liked, but it just felt hard to play and not as good as other cards.  But great as a 2 of.

Etherium felt like a necessary option to establish a clock.  But I could see it going being replaced for something more disruptive that can still attack to win.  Also seriously considering Faerie Mechanist since the draw might be better in this deck. EDIT: Tenatively added Mechanist.  Draw is too good.

I don't feel like this deck would be great in this meta game though.  It has fairly poor early interaction though it locks really well given time.

Trying to figure out where to add Time Vault + Key to...

The aggro version might be better now though as it hits fasters both in disruption and winning.

Blue Aggro
4   Mishra's Workshop
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Strip Mine
2   Ghost Quarter
2   Ancient Tomb
4   Steam Vents
4   Volcanic Island   
1   Island      
1   Black Lotus   
1   Mana Crypt   
1   Sol Ring   
1   Mana Vault
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
      
4   Faerie Mechanist
4   Esperzoa
4   Master of Etherium   
4   Juggernaut   
      
3   Mindlock Orb
2   Crucible of Worlds
1   Time Walk   
1   Tinker   
1   Trinisphere   
4   Null Rod   
4   Thorn of Amethyst


5 Sphere with Rod aggro.  All your creatures are huge, except Mechanist but she impulses so she is forgiven.  Juggs isn't blue but he's 5 for 4. 
Esperzoa gives you a really good reason to play Null Rod. 
Just decided to splash red for REB/Pyro. The main deck should be fairly self explainatory.

Sideboard you trade the Rods for more Spheres against Storm.  The Smashes and Pithing Needle are kind of place holders.

[Stormanimagus]

Repeal and Meditate both work really well here. 
Repeal gives you a draw and can bounce opposing Null Rods and can even return your own Smokestack or Tangle Wire to your hand, allowing you to avoid save it and avoid getting hindered by it.
Mediate works well with the with Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

Your deck seems like a good start, but this comment ruined it for me. These cards do have synergy, but synergy alone does not make a card worth playing in a Vintage deck. You are rarely going to completely LOCK the opponent out of the game with Smokestack and so basically Meditate really is a Time Walk for opponent.

The reason Meditate works in Tyrant Blue decks is because they'll draw into to a FoW more often than not and be able to negate the threat coming out the following turn.

I'm not saying Meditate is bad, but the synergy is not good enough. Deckbuilders need to move away from "cute tricks" and more towards a deck that is intertwined and interwoven to work like a carefully oiled machine. That's what separates the truly great deckbuilders from the mediocre. In a great deck there is never a bad topdeck and this is not by mistake. The combinations of cards are ALL synergistic and there is rarely a missing piece to the combo because everything kind of combos with everything.

[nineisnoone]

I, too, am skeptical of the Meditate option.  But the fact that it has some history in 5C Stax list lead me to give it a second thought.  And at the moment, it's worked decently well. 

My main justification is that if "passing the turn with lots of counters on Smokestacks/Tangle Wire" is not a good play, then realistically speaking you probably shouldn't be playing this deck.  Additionally, since that is the core of the decks disruptive elements are Smokestack/Tangle Wire, then if you don't have those in play, then you probably lost anyways as well. 

Do you have any other suggestions?  There is the Thirst/Thoughcast.  Maybe I'm just being difficult, but I feel like I want a little more bang for my buck.  Keeping in the Tyrant Shop (that sounds like a cool name) vein, maybe I'll try out Remora.

[RJ]

I'm not saying Meditate is bad, but the synergy is not good enough. Deckbuilders need to move away from "cute tricks" and more towards a deck that is intertwined and interwoven to work like a carefully oiled machine. That's what separates the truly great deckbuilders from the mediocre. In a great deck there is never a bad topdeck and this is not by mistake. The combinations of cards are ALL synergistic and there is rarely a missing piece to the combo because everything kind of combos with everything.

This is terrible logic in regards to deck design.  There are many situations where topdecking a Mana Drain is bad, but everyone still plays that card.  Meditate is strong right now for a couple reasons.  If your plan is to play Stacks and Wires then Meditate is the best card draw available outside of Bazaar.  The reasoning being that because the decks of today are not quite as fast or as efficient at finding the mass bounce that they used to, these cards affect the game more than in the past.  Since Stacks and Wires is a reasonable game plan, there is no reason not to supplement your plan with the best available support cards.  Now you can argue that this is a bad plan, and we all can debate that, but to say that Meditate is "a cute trick" is completely off base.

[policehq]

Meditate isn't good in Stax only when you've created a lock. It's good in Stax when Smokestack and/or Tangle Wire don't allow the opponent to do anything but draw during their new turn. This makes a full lock less rare than you mention, and it helps you to kill faster by getting four draw steps with no punishing upkeeps to their two of each.

Even Time Vault was played pre-errata in some Mud lists for the combination of ramping Smokestack up, playing Tangle Wire, then activating Time Vault.

[nineisnoone]

Even Time Vault was played pre-errata in some Mud lists for the combination of ramping Smokestack up, playing Tangle Wire, then activating Time Vault.

Hmm.  Now that's an interesting idea.  Voltaic Key would be great with Transmuter.


And random epiphany, Faerie Mechanist with Transmuter would be great as well.  Impulse for 1 mana and +1 card advantage. 

Might also be better than Etherium because Mechanist will get you more permanents to sacrifice/tap to Smokestack/Wire whereas Etherium might ended getting tapped to Wire and Smokestacks inhibits his ability to grow... 

[Random Noob]

Blue Smoke
4   Mishra's Workshop      
4   Volcanic Island      
4   Steam Vent      
1   Island
2   Wasteland      
2   Ancient Tomb
1   Strip Mine      
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring   
1   Black Lotus   

1   Sundering Titan   
1   Duplicant
4   Faerie Mechanist   
4   Master Transmuter

1   Tinker   
4   Tangle Wire
1   Trinisphere   
1   Ancestral Recall
3   Smokestack
4   Force of Will   
3   Repeal   
3   Meditate   
2   Mindlock Orb   
2   Crucible of Worlds

I would test it -3 Repeal, +2 Misdirection, (i hate Hurykls so f***ing much), -4 Mechanist, -2 Ancient Tomb, -8 Volcanic Island, +7 Island, +1 Mindlock Orb, +3 Ghost Quarter, +1 Crucible, +1 Time Walk +1 Mana Crypt, +1 Mana Vault...some thing like this.

I can't say how powerful Mindlock Orb is, but i think its real Power comes through when you can make a Landlock with Crucible more often, otherwise it should be just a SB card. Hurykls is real hate imo and i face it often, so i see there 2 Misd. I dont know if there is a need to have the Mechanist with the Transmúter to have enough use for the Transmuter. I think his part should be working on big Smokies and the Tangle Wires.

Meditate is a real good card draw which supports importent cards and is good getting the FoW.

[nineisnoone]

What's the rationale for not splashing red? 

I'm not at all sure on some of the suggestions you make.  Time Walk is kind of bad here for the same reasons Meditate is good.  I also don't think Misdirection is the right call here.  It's just too limited.  What if they Rebuild?  What if they Energy Flux?  Again, I would rather just REB and play duals.  Irregardless, I would also keep them in the sideboard.  4x FoW is imo enough main deck. 

Mechanist is only secondarily there for combing with Transmuter purposes.  I wouldn't run this deck without some form of a clock.  Mechanist is already pushing it banking that the 2 a turn is enough.  Cutting it and not adding another creature (likely Master of Etherium) is not an option in my opinion. 

I definitely do need to put Mana Crypt and Vault into the deck.  I had originally been suspicious of Crypt killing me if I couldn't get a clock down, but Smokestack and Transmuter deal with that.  Same thing with Vault only to a more marginal degree.  However, I don't really consider them to be high-priority additions.  The Tombs helped out a good bit in this department.

TBH, I am not at all sure about running Mindlock/Crucible in any amount.  If I do run Mindlock, I definitely should trade the Wastelands for Ghost Quarters.  But I don't even know how I feel about land destruction in all honesty.  Wasteland is only parity at best and if they only get basics out often it is just a blank colorless mana producer.  I feel much more comfortable playing Tombs and playing my artifacts then relying on my opponent's having neglected to put in a few basics into their decks.

Did make some changes to the aggro deck... moved the blast to the SB.  Added Crucible/Mindlock/Ghost to the main. Made some changes to the Stax deck as well.

[Random Noob]

The Time Walk can work against the drawback of Meditate, which can be sometimes bad too. It would make you able to play Meditate with out Smokies out, and at least it could be somekind of Land Drop and draw 1 card for free spell in the early Game. Misdirection would you make able to Win a counterwar, if he forces your Force when he plays Energy Flux. Ok that leads us to REB, i can't imagine to run this Main, but I can think of Welder when red is on board and the inclusion of Intuition, but this would suck with Mindlock Orb. Welder, Intuition and Transmuter sound good for me. And where Transmuter is good, why should Welder be bad. Welder is a prooven card in Stax. Perhabs its possible to include Welder and Transmuter.

Ok Crypt and Vault can be bad sometimes, but the Vault can be good with the Transmuter, but maybe you are right, and if there would go a Welder into the list they could be useful.

Ghost Quarter can be good if you shoot it on a Shop, but most the time it makes nothing without Mindlock Orb, but the problem with Mindlock Orb is that I'm not sure that he does much more staying alone. Perhaps there is a way through stopping the opponent from fetching his Lands and have more Strip Mines (Ghost Quarters) for a good lock...perhaps if he is not able to use the fetchlands, we need no Crucible to make sharp shots with the Quarters. Crucible is necessary for a Smokestack Lock, but the new way should be to Bounce it with Transmuter.

Hmm a rule question: What would happen if i use Welder, and then would use Transmuter on the same Artifact ? I guess that the Welder would fizzle cause the target isn't legal and do nothing, but I ask because the trick works with Sensei.

[Random Noob]

sry, please erase this.

[nineisnoone]

Hmm a rule question: What woul happen if i use Welder, and then would use Transmuter on the same Artifact ? I guess that the Welder would fizzle cause the Target isn't legal and do nothing, but I ask because the trick works with Sensei.

Welder activation would fizzle.