[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays - Crazy Stax!

[Stormanimagus]

If you are a going aggro yeah, Transmuter is no good.  Just play the beaters.

Brainstorm is crappy without fetch-lands.  I would just go ahead and cut the Seats.  Imo it's kind of excessive to run it just to support Master.

I think the Chalices are a bit much if you walk the 9 sphere path.  I usually don't add Chalice if I run spheres.  You could try adding Ponder/Mystical/Merchant/Tinker in it's place.  Or just go the Sword of Fire and Ice route.

Yeah, Seats are no good because they prevent me from running one of the most powerful hate cards around right now: Null Rod. So, consider them gone. I'll have a more tuned list later tonight

[Random Noob]

The thing about the Transmuter is to have some Tangle Wires which will never go empty. Once i tested with more Scepters but with out Smokestack Crucible Lock, the milling you can do is sometimes insane. Example: Bounce Scepter with Esperzoa, hardcast, bounce with Transmuter. When you have the Parts multiple time the Lib of the Opponent will be very Empty soon.

Just my thoughts of a milling Plan in Staxx.

[Stormanimagus]

The thing about the Transmuter is to have some Tangle Wires which will never go empty. Once i tested with more Scepters but with out Smokestack Crucible Lock, the milling you can do is sometimes insane. Example: Bounce Scepter with Esperzoa, hardcast, bounce with Transmuter. When you have the Parts multiple time the Lib of the Opponent will be very Empty soon.

Just my thoughts of a milling Plan in Staxx.

Scepters?

[Stormanimagus]

All Right, Here's a list I've been messing with for a while now. I think that Chalice is really SB material for this deck as we already have Null Rod and Thorn MD and FoW gives you an answer to turn 1 shenanigans on the draw. I didn't really want to have to cut Chalice from the MD but I wanted to find a home for a metagame choice: In The Eye Of Chaos. Once you slap that card down it becomes very easy to resolve any spell you might want to play and that is key against Drain decks. It also has the added advantage of pretty much stopping combo in its tracks. I'm still not sure about the manabase, but it seems like the Waste/Strip package is OK sans Crucible as you can Waste a land and then drop Null Rod Or Thorn. I'm still not certain on this choice though and have considered an Ancient Tomb/City Of Traitors package instead.

Blue 'Bots

Land (16):
6 Island
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (22):
1 Black Lotus (0)
1 Lotus Petal (0)
5 Moxen (0)
1 Mana Crypt (0)
1 Sol Ring (1)
4 Thorn Of Amethyst (2)
4 Null Rod (2)
4 Tangle Wire (3)
1 Trinisphere (3)

Artifact Creatures (13):
4 Master Of Etherium (2U)
4 Esperzoa (2U)
4 Faerie Mechanist (3U)
1 Duplicant (6)

Instants (5):
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk (1U)
1 Tinker (2U)

Enchantments (2):
2 In The Eye Of Chaos (2U)

SB
4 Chalice Of The Void (XX)
4 Relic Of Progenitus (1)
4 Ensnaring Bridge (3)
1 In The Eye Of Chaos (2U)
1 Duplicant (6)
1 Triskelavus (7)

Thoughts/Comments? Is the blue count high enough to support FoW?

[bluemage55]

Thoughts/Comments? Is the blue count high enough to support FoW?

No card drawing (e.g. Thoughtcast)?  Thoughtcast would certainly improve the consistency and bolster the late game some more.  It'd would certain certainly boost the blue count as well, and plays nice with In the Eye of Chaos to boot.

Another option to consider would be swapping the Null Rods with the Chalices, and bringing in Seat of the Synod for extra artifact goodness.

[Stormanimagus]

Thoughts/Comments? Is the blue count high enough to support FoW?

No card drawing (e.g. Thoughtcast)?  Thoughtcast would certainly improve the consistency and bolster the late game some more.  It'd would certain certainly boost the blue count as well, and plays nice with In the Eye of Chaos to boot.

Another option to consider would be swapping the Null Rods with the Chalices, and bringing in Seat of the Synod for extra artifact goodness.

Ummm. . . did you see Faerie Mechanist? I realize he's more like a Brainstorm on legs rather than Card Advantage, but this IS a stax deck and it relies more on an explosive opening. If I had the room for Thoughtcast it would be first on my list of cards to add, but what would you drop from the MD for it?

[bluemage55]

Ummm. . . did you see Faerie Mechanist? I realize he's more like a Brainstorm on legs rather than Card Advantage, but this IS a stax deck and it relies more on an explosive opening.

I did see Mechanist and I would advocate the use of Thoughtcast in addition to it.  While I'm aware that a more explosive opening is good, my primary recommendation is not to cut down on the explosive turn 1 cards, but on the follow-up aggro.

If I had the room for Thoughtcast it would be first on my list of cards to add, but what would you drop from the MD for it?

It depends if you're concerned about the blue count.  I think with additional consistency from Thoughtcasts, you should be okay with the current blue count. 

Accordingly I'd advocate dropping some combination of Master of Etherium and Esperzoa.  Given that you already have the Faerie, you don't really need 8 fatties for beating.  Without testing, I'd recommend cutting at least 2 Esperzoa (as sustaining the artifact count from multiple Esperzoas can be difficult if you also have some of your prison elements in play and/or you are facing hate like Mox Monkey).  So either 4 Master/0 Esperzoa, 3 Master/1 Esperzoa, or 2 Master/2 Esperzoa.

[Stormanimagus]

Ummm. . . did you see Faerie Mechanist? I realize he's more like a Brainstorm on legs rather than Card Advantage, but this IS a stax deck and it relies more on an explosive opening.

I did see Mechanist and I would advocate the use of Thoughtcast in addition to it.  While I'm aware that a more explosive opening is good, my primary recommendation is not to cut down on the explosive turn 1 cards, but on the follow-up aggro.

If I had the room for Thoughtcast it would be first on my list of cards to add, but what would you drop from the MD for it?

It depends if you're concerned about the blue count.  I think with additional consistency from Thoughtcasts, you should be okay with the current blue count. 

Accordingly I'd advocate dropping some combination of Master of Etherium and Esperzoa.  Given that you already have the Faerie, you don't really need 8 fatties for beating.  Without testing, I'd recommend cutting at least 2 Esperzoa (as sustaining the artifact count from multiple Esperzoas can be difficult if you also have some of your prison elements in play and/or you are facing hate like Mox Monkey).  So either 4 Master/0 Esperzoa, 3 Master/1 Esperzoa, or 2 Master/2 Esperzoa.

I do kinda see your point, but the idea behind this deck is to really be like an artifact beatdown deck, but with sick lock pieces and FoW. I would never cut Master of Etherium for this reason. He's like Tarmogoyf in this deck. He grows and puts a fast clock on the opponent. I could see cutting 1 Esperzoa, but I don't think 2 because you want him early to bounce Tangle Wires and keep decks like Oath and Combo at bay. It's also important to see one early as you want to play the Esperzoa right after playing the Faerie Mechanist so you can start using the Mechanist every turn to dig. I dunno. Esperzoa might be able to be a 2-of, but I think I'd rather cut just 1 and perhaps 1 mechanist as well. That gives me 2 slots for Thoughtcast. Now, to just find 1-2 more slots. . .

[bluemage55]

I do kinda see your point, but the idea behind this deck is to really be like an artifact beatdown deck, but with sick lock pieces and FoW.

Shop Aggro decks without SoFi typically run around 7-10 beaters total, not counting the Metalworkers or Welders.

Given that your deck is more controlling, I don't think it's really necessary to have more than that.

[Stormanimagus]

I do kinda see your point, but the idea behind this deck is to really be like an artifact beatdown deck, but with sick lock pieces and FoW.

Shop Aggro decks without SoFi typically run around 7-10 beaters total, not counting the Metalworkers or Welders.

Given that your deck is more controlling, I don't think it's really necessary to have more than that.

Yeah, I already changed the list up a bit and posted it somewhere else. I'll post it here now though:

Blue 'Bots

Land (16):
6 Island
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (22):
1 Black Lotus (0)
1 Lotus Petal (0)
5 Moxen (0)
1 Mana Crypt (0)
1 Sol Ring (1)
4 Thorn Of Amethyst (2)
4 Null Rod (2)
4 Tangle Wire (3)
1 Trinisphere (3)

Artifact Creatures (10):
4 Master Of Etherium (2U)
3 Esperzoa (2U)
3 Faerie Mechanist (3U)

Instants (5):
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)

Sorceries (5):
3 Thoughtcast (4U)
1 Time Walk (1U)
1 Tinker (2U)

Enchantments (2):
2 In The Eye Of Chaos (2U)

SB
4 Chalice Of The Void (XX)
4 Relic Of Progenitus (1)
3 Ensnaring Bridge (3)
1 In The Eye Of Chaos (2U)
2 Duplicant
1 Triskelavus

Still haven't been able to find room for the 4th Thoughtcast, but perhaps the deck doesn't need it.

[bluemage55]

Still haven't been able to find room for the 4th Thoughtcast, but perhaps the deck doesn't need it.

I think barring the possibility that we completely missed something, the list is only going to be refined by actual testing.

[Juggernaut GO]

this deck clearly needs less artifacts that lose to null rod, because this deck shell + null rod, would actually stand a chance at winning.  But then, it end up more or less the deck I finished 2nd with at a star city games nearly 3 years ago.

It should really be blue/red based around thirst and welder to get your goodies into play.

[Stormanimagus]

this deck clearly needs less artifacts that lose to null rod, because this deck shell + null rod, would actually stand a chance at winning.  But then, it end up more or less the deck I finished 2nd with at a star city games nearly 3 years ago.

It should really be blue/red based around thirst and welder to get your goodies into play.

What cards in this deck die to null rod? Other than mana?

Relic of Progenitus in the SB? I'd be siding that in FOR null rod anyway for the Ichorid Matchup. I don't understand where this comment is coming from. Read the cards I'm using in the deck.

[Bongo]

The blue aggro list seems intriguing.
However, I think Tolarian Academy and Chalice mainboard are absolutely necessary in today's metgame. Chalice and Null Rod complement one another nicely, and Chalice for 1 is one of the strongest plays right now.

I recommend the following list:


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire
3 Mindlock Orb
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

4 Master of Etherium
4 Juggernaut
1 Duplicant

4 Thoughtcast
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker

2 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

7 Island
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolarian Academy


Force has not been as good as I hoped, very often I didn't want to pitch the blue spells in my hand. Esperzoa also has been meh, especially post-board against artifact hate. The drawback is too severe, you want unconditional beaters in this deck.
Tangle Wire has been amazing for me, as it is one of the most asymmetric lock parts. I also like Mox Diamond, as it is better than any off-color Mox and you can mitigate the drawback with Crucible. You really need access to blue mana. Speaking of Crucible, I find the Waste/Strip lock, Mox Diamond and the synergy with Academy Ruins reasons enough to run it.
Duplicant is there as a tutorable answer to DSC, otherwise you have no outs to a resolved Tinker.

[serracollector]

A few questions regarding the orignal deck list by smemmen and several of the others from other players but:

1.   If few players are playing with basics, or only a few, then why doesn't Ghost Quarter/Crucible >>>>>>>Wasteland/Crucible?
2.  With 4 chalice  (0 CC), 6 mox/lotus, mana crypt, and all the other cheap artifacts, why play Juggernaut over Myr Enforcer?  Does the +1 in attack power truly outweigh the freeness of this 4/4?
3. Has anyone considered the Etherium Sculptor?  Making all your cards cheaper is good I hear, and it becomes a descent enuff beat stick with a master or 2 in play.
4. SCULPTING STEEL.  Why do ppl not use this?  Its Workshoppable, becomes anything you want, and with the Academy Ruins can be reused as needed.  With Smokestack/Ruins/Workshop you can make Sculpting steel a different artifact EVERY TURN if you want.


Just a side note, Mindlock orb reminds me strangely enuff of kismet/stasis.  Don't know why, it just does.

[Random Noob]

The thing about the Transmuter is to have some Tangle Wires which will never go empty. Once i tested with more Scepters but with out Smokestack Crucible Lock, the milling you can do is sometimes insane. Example: Bounce Scepter with Esperzoa, hardcast, bounce with Transmuter. When you have the Parts multiple time the Lib of the Opponent will be very Empty soon.

Just my thoughts of a milling Plan in Staxx.

Scepters?

Jester's Scepter. If in the List would be Transmuter and Esperzoa, it can come easily 3 Times a Turn.

[Stormanimagus]

The thing about the Transmuter is to have some Tangle Wires which will never go empty. Once i tested with more Scepters but with out Smokestack Crucible Lock, the milling you can do is sometimes insane. Example: Bounce Scepter with Esperzoa, hardcast, bounce with Transmuter. When you have the Parts multiple time the Lib of the Opponent will be very Empty soon.

Just my thoughts of a milling Plan in Staxx.

Scepters?

Jester's Scepter. If in the List would be Transmuter and Esperzoa, it can come easily 3 Times a Turn.

Hmmmm. . . Not bad. I'll have to at least give it some thought for the SB. The problem is, as with many milling cards. You have 0 guarantee to nab something important the first time and thus it seems kinda weak to me. Def. worth considering though.

@Bongo. Obviously you can't argue with Testing and FOW may eventually be cut, but I do not like your alternative list at all. Mindlock Orb is terrible MD IMO and probably not even worth the SB space. Crucible is decent, but I think there are better options.
I also really think you are not giving Esperzoa enough of a chance. It's got evasion and the ability to allow you to replay TangleWire and Faerie Mechanist every turn. Oh, and it beats for 4 in the air every turn MINIMUM.

Also, why would you need Mox Diamond in a mono-blue shop deck? That really makes no sense to me. I dunno. I haven't tested my list yet, but I certainly will be in the near future and I'll get back to you. The only thing I kinda agree with you on is finding a way to put those chalices in MD. Not quite sure how I could do that with the list the way it is now.

[Random Noob]

Mindlock Orb woul only be good if there would be some Ghost Quarters Main. That would gine the chance of haveing a landlock with Crucible earlier.

[TheShop]

I read the original primer for stax from time to time.  I noticed a huge theoretical difference between this deck and and every other build of stax:  permanent production.

The reason chalice of the void was not included in builds by Kron was that it is not a good play in game 1.  Even if you drop it at 0 you lock yourself out of crucial permanents to feed your eventual lock-smokestack.  I have been toying with chalice for a while and have decided that null rod is much better because you can still drop artifacts as throwaway permanents.  Cutting chalice opens up slots for important lock components and spells in all my builds.  Any thoughts on what would be added if they were cut?  The rod was a maindeck addition to Vroman Stax because it stopped moxes and slaver.  The fact that this card shuts down grindstone, vault, slaver, and mana sources has been noted for other deck discussions.  However, being able to continue to throw down permanents is important for stax.  This permanent question is also a reason why mox diamond gets cut.  This card is not a good topdeck.  Unlike decks with huge draw engines, stax needs to topdeck a permanent/threat every turn.  I think Kron's reasoning still holds water today.

You have upped the mana cost for the deck as a whole so that almost everything requires 4 mana, and/or colored mana.  Kron, Chang, and Vroman all included lock components/threats (in high numbers) so that the deck could run off non-shop land and a mox.

I am not saying that this deck will not work.  I am saying that force of will must make up for a complete change in the base principles of control stax.  I actually understand the one courier's capsule (because it seems alot like barbarian ring...you get it late game and reuse 1000 times).  Again, I am not opposed to the idea of blue stax, I would just like to see how we make it better when we throw out the deck's tried&true principles.

[Stormanimagus]

I read the original primer for stax from time to time.  I noticed a huge theoretical difference between this deck and and every other build of stax:  permanent production.

The reason chalice of the void was not included in builds by Kron was that it is not a good play in game 1.  Even if you drop it at 0 you lock yourself out of crucial permanents to feed your eventual lock-smokestack.  I have been toying with chalice for a while and have decided that null rod is much better because you can still drop artifacts as throwaway permanents.  Cutting chalice opens up slots for important lock components and spells in all my builds.  Any thoughts on what would be added if they were cut?  The rod was a maindeck addition to Vroman Stax because it stopped moxes and slaver.  The fact that this card shuts down grindstone, vault, slaver, and mana sources has been noted for other deck discussions.  However, being able to continue to throw down permanents is important for stax.  This permanent question is also a reason why mox diamond gets cut.  This card is not a good topdeck.  Unlike decks with huge draw engines, stax needs to topdeck a permanent/threat every turn.  I think Kron's reasoning still holds water today.

You have upped the mana cost for the deck as a whole so that almost everything requires 4 mana, and/or colored mana.  Kron, Chang, and Vroman all included lock components/threats (in high numbers) so that the deck could run off non-shop land and a mox.

I am not saying that this deck will not work.  I am saying that force of will must make up for a complete change in the base principles of control stax.  I actually understand the one courier's capsule (because it seems alot like barbarian ring...you get it late game and reuse 1000 times).  Again, I am not opposed to the idea of blue stax, I would just like to see how we make it better when we throw out the deck's tried&true principles.

Have you seen my list a couple posts up? It doesn't include Chalice MD but rather the best 3 Lock pieces I can think of in today's Vintage:

Thorn Of Amethyst (Storm Combo Decks)
Tangle Wire (Control/Oath/Fish + amazing synergy with Esperzoa)
Null Rod (Moxen, Slaver, Vault)

Then we have more of the aggro Stax approach. Think of this list as a better version of Aggro-Stax because the beaters get really big really fast. Master Of Etherium should be at least a 4/4 by the first time he swings and more likely a 5/5. Esperzoa can be a 5/4 flying beatstick that allows you to reuse Mechanist and Tangle Wire. I'm realizing the deck could move away from this strategy and more to a lock strategy, but then it'd be hard having enough Blue to run FoW.

Let's be clear here. This is not the first time that FoW has been proposed for a deck running Shops. Certain Slaver builds used to do that and I think it CAN work. This is, however, the first time that FoW has been proposed in a deck that also runs Spheres, and other lock pieces.

I really don't know if this approach is a good idea, but it seemed intriguing to include FoW in a deck with Shops and an explosive opening. I'm still very doubtful about my list, but I'd like to know how you'd change it?

Keep in mind the fact that I want to keep FoW and make this a BLUE stax buid.

[nineisnoone]

Diamond, as it is better than any off-color Mox and you can mitigate the drawback with Crucible. You really need access to blue mana. Speaking of Crucible, I find the Waste/Strip lock, Mox Diamond and the synergy with Academy Ruins reasons enough to run it.

Have you tried Undiscovered Paradise?  There was a Shop list somewhere else that tried it out.  Undiscovered + Diamond + Crucible.  I had a sort of love/hate relationship with how it played out. 

[TheShop]

I read the original primer for stax from time to time.  I noticed a huge theoretical difference between this deck and and every other build of stax:  permanent production.

The reason chalice of the void was not included in builds by Kron was that it is not a good play in game 1.  Even if you drop it at 0 you lock yourself out of crucial permanents to feed your eventual lock-smokestack.  I have been toying with chalice for a while and have decided that null rod is much better because you can still drop artifacts as throwaway permanents.  Cutting chalice opens up slots for important lock components and spells in all my builds.  Any thoughts on what would be added if they were cut?  The rod was a maindeck addition to Vroman Stax because it stopped moxes and slaver.  The fact that this card shuts down grindstone, vault, slaver, and mana sources has been noted for other deck discussions.  However, being able to continue to throw down permanents is important for stax.  This permanent question is also a reason why mox diamond gets cut.  This card is not a good topdeck.  Unlike decks with huge draw engines, stax needs to topdeck a permanent/threat every turn.  I think Kron's reasoning still holds water today.

You have upped the mana cost for the deck as a whole so that almost everything requires 4 mana, and/or colored mana.  Kron, Chang, and Vroman all included lock components/threats (in high numbers) so that the deck could run off non-shop land and a mox.

I am not saying that this deck will not work.  I am saying that force of will must make up for a complete change in the base principles of control stax.  I actually understand the one courier's capsule (because it seems alot like barbarian ring...you get it late game and reuse 1000 times).  Again, I am not opposed to the idea of blue stax, I would just like to see how we make it better when we throw out the deck's tried&true principles.

Have you seen my list a couple posts up? It doesn't include Chalice MD but rather the best 3 Lock pieces I can think of in today's Vintage:

Thorn Of Amethyst (Storm Combo Decks)
Tangle Wire (Control/Oath/Fish + amazing synergy with Esperzoa)
Null Rod (Moxen, Slaver, Vault)

Then we have more of the aggro Stax approach. Think of this list as a better version of Aggro-Stax because the beaters get really big really fast. Master Of Etherium should be at least a 4/4 by the first time he swings and more likely a 5/5. Esperzoa can be a 5/4 flying beatstick that allows you to reuse Mechanist and Tangle Wire. I'm realizing the deck could move away from this strategy and more to a lock strategy, but then it'd be hard having enough Blue to run FoW.

Let's be clear here. This is not the first time that FoW has been proposed for a deck running Shops. Certain Slaver builds used to do that and I think it CAN work. This is, however, the first time that FoW has been proposed in a deck that also runs Spheres, and other lock pieces.

I really don't know if this approach is a good idea, but it seemed intriguing to include FoW in a deck with Shops and an explosive opening. I'm still very doubtful about my list, but I'd like to know how you'd change it?

Keep in mind the fact that I want to keep FoW and make this a BLUE stax buid.

I am not attacking your build, I am just asking if the deck warrants 8 cards with a cost of 4 that were in the original list posted.  Does having 4 forces in a deck with negligible draw really allow you to ramp to 4 mana without a shop?  I actually knew that you would respond to my post because your list doesn't have some of the problems I address.  I'm not sure what I would change because I am way more fond of control than aggro (I have had negative experiences in testing with the red builds).  I am sorry if I came across as negative towards your list. (I admire your posts).


On the Mox diamond issue:  This card has a high probability of being dead when you need to feed a stack later in the game...the originators of stax were opposed to this card as a one-of for this reason.  This may be different in aggro as well.

[Random Noob]

I'm about to test Forces in the SB. I will board it in against Belcher and Fast Combo. I test often Staxx against TPS like Builds, and today i thought when he bounced my Chalices, Null Rods and all the Stuff to my Hand and he started to play Wheels, how happy i would have been to say Force.

Sorry for my bad english, i hope you can understand it...

[nineisnoone]

Yeah, Force is a fun card, but sometimes you get the feeling it's not just # of blue that is important with running it, but also availability of card draw.  I'm pretty much realizing that unless I can put more dedicated draw in, it's not worth the card disadvantage.

That said, I'm thinking of just making it R/U, using volcanic islands, and playing REB/Pyro.  If you are Spheres you only really care about Recall/Rebuild/Tezzeret anyways, all blue.  It'll only be 1 mana more than FoW anyways, which is worth not having the other-blue-card-in-hand requirement attached to it.  It also let's you run Welder (not saying "run Welder" but it becomes a possibility).

[bluemage55]

Yeah, Force is a fun card, but sometimes you get the feeling it's not just # of blue that is important with running it, but also availability of card draw.  I'm pretty much realizing that unless I can put more dedicated draw in, it's not worth the card disadvantage.

I think that would be what Thoughtcast, Faerie Mechanist, and possibly Thirst for Knowledge are for.

[nineisnoone]

I think that would be what Thoughtcast, Faerie Mechanist, and possibly Thirst for Knowledge are for.

Sure.  Currently, I'm just not 100% on most of those cards though.  Though I do feel like Mechanist is an easy inclusion for a Sphere aggro deck, but the rest of the cards I am not so sure about. 

If you are running Thirst effectively then the decision is easier.  But I don't see Thirst on any of these lists, and my list doesn't run it either.  It just felt, disturbingly sub-par in the deck.  3 non-shop mana can be difficult and even then, it felt like it would have been better if it was a business card.  Thoughtcast felt the same way, though it feels a little bit stronger later when you can get the cost down to one.

I'm not saying not to run it.  I'm merely coming to the realization that there are other completely legitimate options to run instead of FoW that are viable. 

And regardless, making it U/R gives you REB and Pyro post-board which I feel out-weighs the disadvantage of being Wasteable.

And a rules question.  What happens when you re-bounce Tangle Wire in response to it's upkeep trigger on your own upkeep?  The effect goes onto the stack, but does it keep a memory of how many Fading counters were on it before it was bounced or does it attempt to check how many Fading counters were on the old Tangle Wire and see that there is no "old" Tangle Wire but a different "new" Tangle Wire and subsequently force you to exhaust 0 permanents?

[RJ]

And a rules question.  What happens when you re-bounce Tangle Wire in response to it's upkeep trigger on your own upkeep?  The effect goes onto the stack, but does it keep a memory of how many Fading counters were on it before it was bounced or does it attempt to check how many Fading counters were on the old Tangle Wire and see that there is no "old" Tangle Wire but a different "new" Tangle Wire and subsequently force you to exhaust 0 permanents?

You would still have to tap using the number that was on the old one and you won't have the tangle wire itself to tap.  You'd be better off waiting until the trigger resolves so you can use the wire.

[Random Noob]

I think in the Mono U Version will be much Problems Against hate. Energy Flux is the one i fear most, that would be a plus for the Red Blasts. And also there would be a Welder come in too. The mono build would be able to run Forces, what is a dream for Staxx, but it bites with the Spheres. I tested the Bounce Version with Tangle Wire, and this is really good some Times. You can Tap the opponent out, and Master and Esperzoa are fast doing their Job.

The points that are ob my to do list:

- How to handle hate in Mono U
- Force and Spheres -- yes/no
- pro/cons -- red splash
- Mindlock Orb/Ghost Quarter -- together/SB..Quarter would be good against other Staxx.

[nineisnoone]

You would still have to tap using the number that was on the old one and you won't have the tangle wire itself to tap.  You'd be better off waiting until the trigger resolves so you can use the wire.

Ahh.  Okay.  So then the play I should be making is just the normal place the tap effect on the stack first, then the Fading counter removal, resolve the Fading counter, resolve the tap effect.  And then after that is done use Transmuter?

I was thinking that there might be a more complex play there, but I was getting a headache trying to figure it out. lol.

- Force and Spheres -- yes/no

I'm very much in debate on this.  A strange thing I'm trying out now is FoW as a sideboard card, primarily for games where I need a turn 0 play.  Most of the time once I get a color mana source down, I would rather play REB than FoW.

- pro/cons -- red splash

Pro - Welder, REB/Pryo, Magus of the Moon (if that is your fancy, I probably wouldn't run it), Rack and Ruin, Pyrostatic Pillar

Cons - Wasteland, I suppose Sundering Titan gets a second land against you as well.

I would say there is Zero draw back to it if you run Crucible since you can just get your lands back anyways.  If you don't then, it is a more significant one.

And even if the red doesn't make it main deck, red is just THE hate color imo so its great in the sideboard.  anti-blue (REB), anti-storm (pillar), and anti-artifacts (rack and ruin).  you can even have anti-creatures with Dead/Gone, Pyroclasm, Lavamancer.  the only thing it does get you is enchantment hate.  but it gets half of the ones you care about (Flux) and you can always run Chalice for Oath.

- Mindlock Orb/Ghost Quarter -- together/SB..Quarter would be good against other Staxx.

It's very good.  At first I thought not being able to run this would be a Con to the red splash, but then I realized I can just run the Ravenica dual lands and maybe a pain land or two in addition to the Volcanic Islands.

Of course, you do lose the ability to recur fetch lands with a Crucible.  Not a huge drawback, but still something to consider.

[wiley]

And a rules question.  What happens when you re-bounce Tangle Wire in response to it's upkeep trigger on your own upkeep?  The effect goes onto the stack, but does it keep a memory of how many Fading counters were on it before it was bounced or does it attempt to check how many Fading counters were on the old Tangle Wire and see that there is no "old" Tangle Wire but a different "new" Tangle Wire and subsequently force you to exhaust 0 permanents?

You would still have to tap using the number that was on the old one and you won't have the tangle wire itself to tap.  You'd be better off waiting until the trigger resolves so you can use the wire.

Are you sure about this?  I thought Tangle Wire's ability checked the number of fading counters upon resolution.  I believe that in many different Stax primers they show the way to stack wire's abilities as tap on bottom, fade on top so you don't have to tap down as many perms as your opponent.

If that is correct then in your upkeep you simply make the stack look like this:
TOP
Master's ability returning wire (and replaying it once it resolves)
Fade (will have you sacrifice a non-existant permanant)
Tap (will see 0 fade counters and do nothing)
BOTTOM

The 'new' wire won't have a trigger because it is not the begiining of your upkeep.