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Author Topic: [Deck] Cerebral Assassin  (Read 4144 times)
theLastGnu
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« on: October 20, 2008, 09:12:08 am »

I was unable to get any conversation going on the thread already in the open forum, so let's see what we can get going in improvement.
First, the decklist:
// Lands
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 City of Brass
    2 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    2 Sundering Titan
    1 Worldgorger Dragon
    4 Goblin Welder
    1 Triskelavus
    1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
    2 Squee, Goblin Nabob

// Spells
    4 Animate Dead
    1 Ancestral Recall
    3 Intuition
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    2 Careful Study
    1 Demonic Tutor
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Tinker
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Possessed Portal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Balance
    3 Duress
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Echoing Truth
    1 Merchant Scroll

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation

For those unfamiliar with the deck, it mainly wins through 1 of 3 conditions: welding/animating a titan into play turn 2 or 3 for maximum land kills, welding in a possessed portal with either loam or 2 squees, or there's always the random dragon win.

This is a rough list with 9 open sideboard slots. I've been working on it as a sort of "pet deck" for the past few months, it seems competitive on mws, but that's not saying much; I'm looking for any ideas for improvement. The main problem I've encountered is that it's crippled by so many common ichorid sideboard slots.
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Pitlord
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 08:35:36 pm »

The list looks pretty solid as far as Cerebral Assassin goes, though there are a few slots I wonder about. The first, and most pondersome, is Merchant Scroll. Scrolling for Intuition is very expensive, scrolling for Ancestral is meh in this deck. The only real reason I can see for its inclusion is to find your lone bounce spell. I think this would be served better by simply a second bounce spell, or possibly another thoughtseize, since only having 5 disruption spells seems risky.

Also, why no Deep Analysis? This card is very solid in Dragon, and this runs a similar engine, meaning there may very well be a spot for Deep here.
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Marske
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« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 02:42:06 am »

First of all I'm glad to see people are still discussing this amazingly fun deck !

I've played CA during the Bazaar of Moxen event (180 people) and during my own tournament (50 people) and did some extensive testing with the deck. Some things spring to mind when I see your list:

Oona
Playing this is IMO a mistake in CA because while it does help a lot when you use the dragon combo it can't be put into play with welder (a huge factor). The only chances you have is animating this (a lot harder) or hardcasting it (not even going there).

Triskelavus
Triskelion is better because it enables a kill with the dragon combo without mana and it cost 1 less to hardcast if need be (the tokens are irrelevant).

Squee
Playing only 2 squee is IMO a mistake because you need squee for your draw engine and for your portal lock.

Thoughtseize
It costs you 2 life in a deck that already does tremendous amounts of damage to itself... Probably duress would be better but I've had some succes with Cabal Therapy in the past.

Merchant scroll
Like pitlord said this card is just too slow in this deck.

I'll leave you guys with the decklist I'm currently playing:

“The Dutch” Cerebral Assassin

Manabase
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Seat of Synod
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

Creatures
4x Goblin Welder
3x Squee, Goblin Nabob
2x Sundering Titan
1x Triskelion
1x Platinum Angel
1x Eternal Witness
1x Worldgorger Dragon

Spells
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Intuition
3x Animate Dead
2x Darkblast
1x Tinker
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Entomb
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Necromancy
1x Time Walk
1x Life from the Loam
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Artifacts
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Possessed Portal
1x Tormod's Crypt

I hope my comments and decklist help this discussion along a bit because this really is a powerfull and fun deck to play.
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« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2008, 08:32:46 pm »

Why so few careful study in either list?  You want to be careful not to be too reliant on bazaar of baghdad in your opening hand.   Also in this meta if I started working on a list I would start with trying to find room for at least 4x thoughtseize/duress.

Sorry I realize that's not a particularly helpful post but I wanted to chime in.  Good luck!

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Marske
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 02:08:53 am »

Quote
Why so few careful study in either list?  You want to be careful not to be too reliant on bazaar of Baghdad in your opening hand.   Also in this meta if I started working on a list I would start with trying to find room for at least 4x thoughtseize/duress.

Sorry I realize that's not a particularly helpful post but I wanted to chime in.  Good luck!

I must place a little note that I'm a European player and our meta differs slightly from the US one so some choices in my build could be because of this. That being said I'm glad Eastman is joining in on this discussion Wink because he probably knows best what he's talking about.

Carefull study:
I haven't had any problem with being to BoB reliant with my current list (this could also be my playstyle with the deck or the meta) I tested carefull study in the past and it seems to fill the graveyard real nice... which is a big mistake in the euro meta because everybody is packing graveyard hate, so you want to moderate the threads to play around this a bit. Also the cardloss this card provides has cost me some games at times. I could see it being a 2-off in any CA list though.

Duress / Thoughtseize
If I needed too choose I would say Duress because it's a house against combo. The only benefit Thoughtseize has is being able to take creatures (who are not a real problem for this deck right ?) the downsides with Seize are the 2 lifeloss which can be a problem.

@Eastman,
Are Duress / Thoughtseize that needed ? Because I've been working on a CA list that takes combo (this decks worst match-up) apart quite well and it doesn't have either (nor does it have therapy's)
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theLastGnu
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« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 01:51:23 pm »

The Dragon Kill Condition
I still prefer Oona after playing around with e-witness in the slot, Oona gets there surprisingly often after a random reanimate. It also gets around ethersworn canonist, which I anticipate will make up a significant amount of anti-combo sideboard slots.

Triskelavus
I'm a huge fan of Triskelavus over Triskelion; this deck rarely, if ever, gets to 6 mana to hardcast it, so the extra 1 cmc is irrelevant. If you're going off with dragon combo, chances are remarkably high that you have infinite mana anyway, so Triskelion's advantage is moot. And the tokens aren't necessarily irrelevant, I've had quite a few times where I've used them for welder fodder. And, finally, it flies, for what that's worth in any awkward situations where you wind up playing reanimator aggro instead of dragon combo/portal lock.

Squee
Absolutely agree, should be a 3-of, I've modified my list as such.

Duress Effects
I've been testing with 7 total the past few days; I found 7 to be too many, so I'm down to a 4-2 (duress-thoughtseize) split, which has been performing well.

Merchant Scroll
Absolutely right, no place in the deck. I've cut it from my list.

Careful Study
This card looks amazing for this deck on paper, but in practice I just found it being a dead card more often than not and wound up cutting it. Usually one bazaar activation is enough to dump something relevant into the yard, I also can get the bazaar back with Life from the Loam, which brings me to my next point...

Waste Effects
Do these belong in this deck? They're randomly amazing alone and always with life from the loam. I'm currently running 2 effects, but I could see going to 3 if I can find room for a third.

Intuition
I can't get enough of this card, there are so many good piles in this deck and I've upped it to a 4-of.

Here's the list as it stands right now:
// Lands
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 City of Brass
    1 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    2 Sundering Titan
    1 Worldgorger Dragon
    4 Goblin Welder
    1 Triskelavus
    3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    1 Oona, Queen of the Fae

// Spells
    4 Animate Dead
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Intuition
    1 Demonic Tutor
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Tinker
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Possessed Portal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Balance
    4 Duress
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Deep Analysis
    1 Time Walk

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 Darkblast
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pull from Eternity

The main problem I'm having with this deck is that it just seems to fold to storm combo and charbelcher, what kind of things could find their way into the sideboard to fix this? Ethersworn Canonist? Spheres? Orim's Chant? Chalice?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 08:04:42 pm by theLastGnu » Logged
Marske
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 02:28:16 am »

Quote
The Dragon Kill Condition
I still prefer Oona after playing around with e-witness in the slot, Oona gets there surprisingly often after a random reanimate. It also gets around ethersworn canonist, which I anticipate will make up a significant amount of anti-combo sideboard slots.

Although the "dragon" kill is debatable I'm wondering HOW Oona gets around the Canonist... if the Canonist is out and you reanimate your dragon then your also stuck no matter what... Animating Oona when canonist is out is just as good as Animating Triskelion because you can just shoot the canonist and procede. Also you can Welder the canonist out or use Darkblast (which I'm missing in your list it's great in welder battles)

Quote
Triskelavus
I'm a huge fan of Triskelavus over Triskelion; this deck rarely, if ever, gets to 6 mana to hardcast it, so the extra 1 cmc is irrelevant. If you're going off with dragon combo, chances are remarkably high that you have infinite mana anyway, so Triskelion's advantage is moot. And the tokens aren't necessarily irrelevant, I've had quite a few times where I've used them for welder fodder. And, finally, it flies, for what that's worth in any awkward situations where you wind up playing reanimator aggro instead of dragon combo/portal lock.

I think you are making a mistake by playing this deck as a Dragon combo / Portal lock deck, true CA has the dragon kill but it's only there for the explosive "Oops I just won" factor but not as a main kill imo. Your main target should be getting a 7/10 into play or a Possed Portal with 2 sqee's (Darkblast plus Life from the loam work also) the rest is just gravy...

This deck gets to 6 mana easy enough (I also mis a mana vault in your list) and the times I hardcasted a Titan are numerous. So getting to six mana shouldn't be that hard.

Dealing with Combo:
Ethersworn Canonist, Spheres, Orim's Chant, Chalice are all options you could consider running in your sideboard I ran 3 thorn and 1 Trinisphere during the Annecy Events and walked over Combo.

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Vintar
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 05:40:44 am »

The Oona kill doesn't need to cast any spell after the first animate.
Animate dragon, make tons of mana then change target for Oona in your last loop, activate ability and win on the next draw step.
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m03
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 02:35:39 am »

Here's a recent, interesting list. I've been testing a similar list (with Darkblasts in the SB, plus a couple of other minor differences), and it's been working quite well.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21370

Main:

4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Welder
2 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Possessed Portal
3 Animate Dead
1 Exhume
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Intuition
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground River
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:

4 Show and Tell
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pithing Needle
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 05:33:57 am »

I wonder; would Leyline of the Void be a good sideboard card, or even main?  I feel that this would be the case, as the majority of the decks out there have some abuse of the grave, and the disruption it causes shoiuld give you an extra turn iagainst most decks.
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Soon-Man
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 03:20:39 pm »

Any thought into Regrowth. Works really well with Intuition. Not bad for other obvious reasons too.
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theLastGnu
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 10:01:01 pm »

I've been messing around with a version of this that cuts the duress effects in lieu of running enough blue to support FoWs and counters, it's been pretty solid in testing on mws (for what that's worth). Without further ado, I present CA with counters:

// Lands
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Gemstone Mine
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    4 City of Brass

// Creatures
    2 Sundering Titan
    1 Worldgorger Dragon
    4 Goblin Welder
    3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
    1 Triskelion

// Spells
    4 Animate Dead
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Intuition
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Tinker
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Possessed Portal
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Time Walk
    1 Echoing Truth
    3 Negate
    1 Merchant Scroll
    4 Force of Will
    4 open slots

I don't know what to put in the 4 open slots, I'm thinking DA, AK, Careful Study, or Strategic Planning (currently using AK). I've decided to stick to a 5c mana base because it's safe from Titan and it also gives me a lot of options in the sideboard.


Any thought into Regrowth. Works really well with Intuition. Not bad for other obvious reasons too.
I would replace Oona with Eternal Witness for the dragon kill if you're looking for regrowth effects.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 11:34:16 pm by theLastGnu » Logged
Sam
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 03:30:29 pm »

Quote
Here's a recent, interesting list. I've been testing a similar list (with Darkblasts in the SB, plus a couple of other minor differences), and it's been working quite well.

Thank you, it's my build.  For my first post on TMD i'll be glad to speak about it.

About CA

First of all, we must all agree that CA is not, and will never become, a top tier deck. The strategies you're trying to achieve by playing CA are objectivly weaker than those you'll find in most other top vintage deck.

So, why should you play CA?

1) Because it's your pet deck and you enjoy playing it.
Well this is a good reason if your main goal is having fun, but as a competitve vintage player I also like to win...

2) Because, in the right meta, CA weaknesses become lighter on the power scale.
Like for every other rogue deck, the decision to play CA should be base on your evaluation of the metagame.

CA will shine in a metagame dominate by Aggro and Control (drain base deck). Usualy you simply loose to any kind of combo. Fishies decks are particuliry good targets for you big fatties.

The goal of CA is to cheat in a fatty quickly. Dragon and Oath have a similar game plan. On paper they're better deck. Ca is just slower than Dragon and it doesn't have the control package of Oath. But, it's also more stable than Dragon (or at least less vulnerable to hate) and it has a better hability to recover than Oath.

Its advantage over Dragon is important against any kind of fishlike deck. A mix of stiffle, bounce/stp and mana denial are to hard to handle for dragon to make fish deck a good matchup. With Dragon, you must wait for backup before setting your mane game plan, that give a huge edge to a tempo deck. With CA you just rush-in a fatty. If it's counter/kill you just stick to your game plan. You just have to many threath.

Oath is also good against fish deck (for different reason than CA) but tends to struggle against control. Oath's winning window is to narrow to make control a good match-up. It's where the recovering ability of CA really shine. The uncounterable draw engine of CA and its threath density give an hard time to drain.dec.

Ironically Oath and Dragon are poor match-up for CA...

About my build

When I designed this build I had those generals assumption about CA in mind. I want to make it even better against its favorable matchup. It might seem counter-intuitive, but I don't think you should design a rogue deck as you design a top tier deck.

Your main goal here is to wreck a particular metagame. You already roll over to specific match-up. Trying to improve those matchup will oftenly weaken (or at least not improve) your good matchup. If you plan to face 3/4 of Aggro / Aggro-control/ Drain.dec, so you must be sure the odds are largely favourable against those deck instead of trying to make your combo match-up a coin flip rather than an unfavorable matchup.

It's simple math, you'll win more games like this (as long as your initial metagame evaluation is good).

So, in this optic, I tried to improve the deck force against control and aggro-control. I won't explain all the cards choice, but let talk about the main deck building line.

1) Improving threat density. it's what Sharuum do. Dealing wiht one fatty is usualy ok, dealing with two is harder. The portal strategy is also easier to achieve.

2) Maximize the uncounterable draw engine. That's the main reason for a full play set of Squee and all the black tutor.

3) Flexibility and stability. This is why I remove the dragon kill. If you think the Dragon kill give you stability you should ask you the question when and why will I wish to use it?

4) Duress effect. They are just better than counter against fish and control. You play the aggro role, you don't want to counter threats, just protect your own.

5) Having a B plan. Graveyard hate  is irrevelant against Show&Tell and Tinker.

Hey that's it. A long post for a marginal deck... Maybe it'll encourage some of you to "reanimate" it.



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FadeToBlack
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 10:01:58 pm »


Hey that's it. A long post for a marginal deck... Maybe it'll encourage some of you to "reanimate" it.


Care to post your list?
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Sam
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 10:30:26 pm »

Quote
Care to post your list?

It's the list posted by m03.

Quote
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Goblin Welder
2 Sharuum the Hegemon
2 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Possessed Portal
3 Animate Dead
1 Exhume
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Intuition
3 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Underground River
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:

4 Show and Tell
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pithing Needle
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