Creature based combo

[neotrophy]

Watching the coverage of Pro Tour Berlin, which has to be the closest thing to a Vintage Pro Tour that we'll ever see, in the way it was played and the shear speed of the format, re-ignited an idea that I (and I think many others) have had floating around for some time now.  The success of the Elf Deck, its speed and consistency made me wonder again if there's a play in Vintage for a combo deck based primarily around low casting cost creatures.

There have been attempts, such as Kobold Clamp, but they never seem to get over consistency issues.  With Glimpse of Nature and Skullclamp in the format for draw and Culling the Weak as a remarkable mana boost, it strikes me that there should be a way to build a creature based deck which can draw most of itself in the first couple of turns.  Also, Ad Nauseam was used in a couple of the Pro Tour Berlin lists, and could provide extra draw.

I've tried in the past (unfortunately, I've lost the decklist), and came up with a Kobold Clampish deck, based, in part off Meandeck Tendrils.  But it fizzled almost half the time, even if it could kill on turn 1 about 75% of the times that it didn't fizzle.

Is there a deck to be made here now?  What has changed in the format over the past couple of years that might make it a better or worse proposition today than it was when Gifts was the deck to beat?  Are there any cards other than Ad Nauseam that have appeared recently that, although they may not have been right for Extended, give a Vintage deck that aims to win by producing mana from, and drawing many cards with creatures?

[mike_bergeron]

Snip

I actually played a Kobold-Clamp Deck a few months ago, and while fun, it is hard to be consistent.

The moving parts:
10-12 kobolds
4x Skullclamp
Mana Acceleration
Protection
Kill Condition

Are you speaking about something like this:

4x Skull Clamp
12x Kobold
4x Ornithopter?
4x ESG
4x SSG
4x Chrome Mox
4x Glimpse of Nature

Draw: Ad Nauseum, Necro, Bargain, ?


I guess the ultimate question becomes: Why do I play this over _____ ? (insert competitive combo deck, belcher, ad-naus, etc.)

I will try to develop a decent decklist and respond back. 

[EnialisLiadon]

I too was inspired by PT: Berlin, and tried making a fun elf-combo deck with Glimpse, Pact, Clamp and the Nettle Sentinel engine.  But it can only goldfish turn 2 if you get really lucky, and can still be prone to fizzling out.  Also, it can be pretty tricky to play at times.

I had to ask myself, "why not play traditional storm combo...which is faster, easier to play, and is more resiliant?"  I'll still put effort into the list, since it's really fun to play, but I don't expect it to go anywhere unless the aforementioned question can be answered.  Though Earthcraft + Nettle Sentinel is something I'd like to try out.

[neotrophy]

I think that the major reason that you might play this kind of deck is that it may be possible to have a solid aggro plan B (as seen in Berlin).  I guess that rules out Kobolds, and Nettle Sentinel needs lots of green cards to do its thing if you go down an elf route.  Playing too much green blocks you off from some of the strongest cards in Magic, and I think that Culling the Weak is an important part of the puzzle if this deck is to be found (it's just too powerful not to be) and it's not going to help you cast green spells.

That's the main reason that I started this thread.  I can't see a path where you have a consistent combo plan as well as an alternative victory that might give the deck an edge over some of the alternatives, but I can smell it.... it's got to be here somewhere.  I'm strangely not interested in how hard it is to play, if it can be made really fast, and consistent enough to have a shot, I think that the exercise is worth it, even if the deck is basically unplayable as was the case with one of my earlier inspirations, Meandeck Tendrils.

I'm going to play around with some decklists over the coming days, too.  Thanks for the feedback so far, it's nice to know that I wasn't the only one inspired in a Vintage direction by Pro Tour Berlin.

One more question.  Is there some weakness in the idea of playing lots of creatures, or in needing to find ways to put them to use that makes this strategy inherently poor for a Vintage metagame?

[Ulthrion]

Since Shards came out, I have been interested in top-combo using the cost reducing ability from etherium sculptor. One sculptor + 2 tops is infinite storm, and with future sight you draw your entire deck. The sculptor is blue for Force of will support and an artifact creature if you want to use it master of etherium or something, and the sensei's divining top is just a good card overall, so I could see this as a sort of combo finish in an otherwise non combo deck. Then again, I don't have too much vintage experience, so I might just be wanting to do too much in a single deck.

[Duncan]

About a year and a half ago, this deck called KI.TT emerged. It is the vintage counterpart of legacy's Spanish Inquisition (don't know which existed first). It uses 0cc creatures in combination with culling the weak to generate mana and with diabolic intent for more tutoring power.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27005.0

[salvager]

i builded a kobold/nauseam deck on mws an it ended up testing quite so here's the list

12 kobold
4 skullclamp
4 glimpse of nature
4 ad nauseam
4 culling the week
4 dark ritual
4 duress
2 mox
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 fastbond
1 regrowth
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 imperial seal
3 tendrils of agony
3 cabal ritual
1 wooded foothils
4 bloodstained mire
4 bayou

side:
4 tarmogoyf
4 tormod's crypt
4 oxidize
3 open slot

[TopSecret]

I thought the same thing when I saw the coverage,
but I have my reservations.
Creature Combo usually has to play little guys that are dead without enablers,
which almost always makes it worse than normal storm.

I played mutations of Kobold-Storm for a while.
Kobolds had the potential for fast kills, killing on turn 1-2 pretty consistently.
The main problem was it's fragility,
since it couldn't maindeck a lot of disruption for hate cards without severely slowing it down.

There were also consistency issues.
At least with most Storm Combo, the cards in your hand will draw cards or tutor
to help find more gas, but with Kobolds, a lot of the cards were dead without the proper engine.

One game it'd kill on the first turn with a hand like:

Dark Ritual
Culling the Weak
Kobold
Kobold
Diabolic Intent
Swamp
Some Card

And then it'd get something like this, and get pwnd:

Dark Ritual
Kobold
Kobold
Culling the Weak
Duress
Swamp
Kobold

If a build can be made
without cards that are heavily dependent on seeing certain other cards
then I think there's something there.

However, for Kobolds to become competitive, I think there needs to be another enabler printed
that's on par with Glimpse and Clamp.
It has to make your Kobolds in hand a threat.
I don't think Ad Nauseam is it, since it's five mana.

Chrome Mox and Ad Nauseam have both been printed since I last
gave it a shot, so that's promising.
There's also Pact of Negation, which is helpful,
because it was very difficult to cast Duress while going off.

Summoner's Pact is interesting, too, but I don't know how it'd fit in with Kobolds,
besides fetching ESG, Veteran Explorer, or Tinder Wall.
It makes me want to try elf combo,
but I'm not sure the engine used at this past Pro-Tour is strong enough for Vintage.
I haven't tested it, so hopefully I'm wrong. I'd love for elves to be good.

I'm sure there's plenty of Elf discussion on The Source, in addition to the stuff here on TMD.

[Smmenen]

One of the problems I encountered in my attempts to re-engineer a Clamp deck since Shards is the fact that it is so vulnerable to particular types of hate.   I mean, Leyline of the Void singlehandedly wrecks Skullclamp as a card. 

[EnialisLiadon]

Truth.  Also, Chalice and Sphere-effects wreck both elves and kobolds.  The fragility of the engine makes it subpar to more traditional storm combo, as you can't really overcome what currently makes the decks slower and less resiliant than more optimal options.

[bluemage55]

The main problem was it's fragility,
since it couldn't maindeck a lot of disruption for hate cards without severely slowing it down.

I fully agree. 

The big difference between Creature Combo and traditional storm is that the latter is more control-combo and the former is more aggro-combo (due to having a B plan of beating). 

Ultimately, control combo > aggro combo.  I would rather have Force of Will to protect my game plan then to have a contingency for games I probably lost anyway.

[TopSecret]

Ultimately, control combo > aggro combo.  I would rather have Force of Will to protect my game plan then to have a contingency for games I probably lost anyway.

I think the contingency plan can be a good thing, depending on how it's done and what the metagame is like.

Bomberman, for example, has a very solid man-plan if it doesn't combo out the opponent first.
Bomberman is a solid control-combo deck with a backup plan.

Elves, on the other hand, is usually a subpar combo deck
with a subpar aggro plan, so it's plan B is irrelevant,
since the opponent can often ignore elves' plan A.

Kobolds has a terrible plan B. Beat for 0. lol
I've seen Quirion Dryad tried as an alternate win,
but it's not good enough,
since it involves adding cards that don't help the deck's engine,
cost two mana, are clunky (they need to be cast pre-combo), and aren't that difficult to answer or ignore.
Also, Dryad doesn't solve most of the deck's problems anyway, since Dryad still needs a bunch of spells to be cast.

If there was something that offered a good plan B
that didn't have all the problems listed above, it could be pretty good.

Something like:

Kobold Face-Beater     0

Creature- Kobold

Kobold Face Beater can't be countered.
Kobold Face-Beater is red.
During your upkeep, you may reveal any number
cards in your hand:
Kobold Face-Beater gets +2/+2 until end of turn
for each Kobold card revealed this way.

                             0/1

I hate that my brethrin are useless,
and you shall be witness to my anger. - Agspk, Kobold Face-Beater

Kobold Face-Beater does not detract from the combo,
he's cost efficient, and he requires an answer from the opponent.
He also gets around both Chalice and Sphere effects.
Obviously, this is a bit of an extreme example (I can dream, right?),
but perhaps it'll help illustrate my point.

[Purple Hat]

I think vintage aggro combo is going to be affinity of some variety and I think it will eventually get there.  it consistently comes up barely short, but cards like thorn are great for it and sculpter and cannonist help as well.  You'll beat most control on the strength of your man plan and it's not so hard to build a deck that can combo out with ravager or triskelion.  you can get around some of the problems these decks have traditionally faced by playing a workshop based mana base instead of artifact lands.

[neotrophy]

Well, I've been trying out a few things, and haven't come up with anything better than the KI.TT list posted earlier.  And I think that the points here show why.  Firstly, the creatures in a "storm" combo deck tend to, well, suck.  They really aren't very useful on their own, and Glimpse of Nature, Culling the Weak and Skullclamp obviously suck without creatures.  The lack of space for disruption, while the deck is filled with cards that don't really stand on their own makes me doubt my early optimism.  If I try to add protection, I either end up with something far too inconsistent, or a really bad version of fish with a slow combo in it.

The mention of Bomberman though makes me think that maybe I'm looking for something that's already there.  Bomberman is a deck that's based around a combo, the centre of which is a creature.  Some versions of MUD similarly use Metalworker as an accelerant and combo piece.  So, creature based combos are out there already, they just don't have the sort of redundancy in the creatures that they use that I was hoping for.

Affinity is an interesting one.  The major problem with Affinity is its unique ability to enter the scoop phase when a Null Rod hits the other side of the table.  It has other issues too, but I think that's the big one.  Also, I'm not quite sure how Purple Hat expects it to get much better, given that Wizards have basically said that there's never going to be another card printed with "affinity for artifacts" (but affinity might come back for other things).  But I was thinking about it this morning, and realised that (OMHO, the underplayed) Erayo (well, his Essence) along with Æthersworn Canonist  puts your opponent in the very difficult position of not being able to play any non-artifact spells, short of a Vexing Shusher.  If there is one aggro deck that can flip Erayo with any regularity, it's got to be Affinity.

So, it might be possible to take Affinity in the direction of MUD (kind of), with heavy disruption and big threats that beat face.  Then, just when your opponent thinks that they can cover all that, put a combo in there (I'm not sure what) that means that they need to defend themselves all over again.  If this is some sort of storm combo, then the deck is going to be geared even more toward playing lots of spells in the one turn, and something like Erayo has the potential to buy time/card advantage to allow you to beat face, using the same mechanism as the combo that you don't need to use or don't have available (if that makes sense).

[Purple Hat]

affinity will get better because new artifacts that support affinity and shore up it's weaknesses continue to be printed.  things like Canonist, Thorn of Amythist (absolutely fantastic affinity card) and sculpter may not say "affinity for artifacts" on them, but they make affinity decks MUCH better.  It used to be that affinity had to race faster combo and usually lost because of it.  these new cards make defending against things like storm combo an organic part of the affinity game plan.  Assuming that decks that abuse the affinity mechanic can only benefit from the printing of cards that say "affinity for artifacts" on them is a big mistake.  I think if your affinity deck gets shut off by null rod you built your manabase wrong.  In my opinion affinity manabases should look much more like stax manabases than like type 2 mana bases.