Artifish?

[xwt]

Hej!

I need comments on my fish deck.

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish
2 Counterbalance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Balance

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Seat of the Synod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethys
3 Sword to Plowshare
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
1 Brainfreeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant



So basically it's a fish deck that benefits from Shard of Alara's "esper" artifact creatures, namely the rule of law on a stick, the one-sided helm of awakening and the big daddy that could.

I run the counter-top engine, because it can counters spells without playing a spell, which is pretty good card advantage, and it's even better with canonist out. Enlighted tutor is a good spell in and of itself, but it's also a 3rd copy of counterbalance and, with counterbalance in play, topdeck tutors can net me pretty much any cmc I need on top. Well.. not any, but quite a few.

Double Top + Etherium Sculptor + cunning wish = big brain freeze. I've included a copy of brainfreeze in the sideboard, and realised that I won a lot of games with that combo finish.

So basically, I want criticism to further improve this deck that I feel has decent potential.


oh, and before somebody says it ('cause it's a fashion statement on the mana drain), no I don't auto-lose to storm combo. I happen to be packing a decent amount of combo-hate spells in the main deck, and benefit from the power of counterspells and mana disruption too.

[Sporkcore]

Looking at the deck, I'd probably cut the Balance for a Time Walk. I don't see any situation where Balance would be advantageous to you. You want to have more creatures on the board and more cards in hand than your opponent to be more controlling. Harlequin has been working on this kind of fish deck a while. I'd put this post as a jumping off point: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36705.0 hope this helps.

[mr.grim]

tfk?

[xwt]

It's probably a good cut to put time walk instead of balance...  I guess I just wanted to play my judge foil balance and never really took the time to consider it was an awkward fit in aggro-control.

TfK is a good card, but I favored thoughtcast in this build. I'll have to actually play the deck with both in order to know wich one I like best, but since half the deck is composed of artifacts I liked the idea of mini-recalls. It's sorcery speed, dosen't dig as deep, but it nets the same amount of cards (usually) for less mana.

[Prospero]

Thirst for Knowledge seems strictly better than a sorcery that's going to cost roughly the same mana. 

It seems like the deck wants to play like an aggro deck, with the Waste/Strip effects slowing your opponent down (along with the Canonist's) enough to finish them off before they can get out of the soft lock you've imposed.

But I think you're running some weak cards in the deck (i.e. the Sculptors) and have a few different directions that you're trying to run with (i.e. the Wishes) instead of having a focused purpose.

If I were playing the deck I would probably add black for Duress effects, put Tidehollow Sculler's in the deck and run green for Gaddock Teeg.  And I'd run Aether Vial.

But that's just my two cents.

[Harlequin]

There's a few dis-synergies that I think definately make the deck weaker.

First of all, Cunning wish -> brainfreeze doesn't work if you have cannonist in play.  Which means you have to cast the cunning wish eot then win next turn.  

In developing my (basically this same) deck, I ran into the issue of Brainfreeze vrs Thorn.  I'm already running the Sculptor and the tops (and the counterbalances).  So going infinite storm is already in the deck.  The problem is that Thorn dirrectly interferes with the infinte storm plan.  After careful consideration, I think that Thorn is ultimately much more powerful against your typical field.  It trashes Combo, cripples control and doesn't do much in the way of hindering you at all.  Every game is much less stressful when Thorn is in play.  

The other somewhat hillarious side-effect is that you can bluff the brainfreeze.  I have definatly bluffed my way into having top countered once (and another time Steve either saw through my bluff or didn't have a counter).  You can definatly start the combo and then put extra emphasis on resovling top.  Its much harder to bluff a thorn.

I also feel that fishes sideboard is narrow in general.  Cunning wish is not needed even in your build I would say just maindeck 3 brainfreezes and make room for the absolute hands down BEST sideboard card for this deck: Hanna's Custody.

Thoughtcast is just bad in my book.  Its fairly tough to get out there quick, only nets +1 card, and has a huge "drain me" stamp on it (and isn't worth defending with counter backup outside of the mana-swing).  I much much much prefer the Sword of Fire and Ice.  In my last build I also ran 3 maindeck Cold Eyed Selkie.  Which were AMAZING all day.  

Finally the inclusion of wasteland is puzzling given the exclusion of thorn.  In my build even with thorn I run mishra's Factories.  They certainly carry thier wieght alone and are totally busted with Master of Eth in play.  In my build the debate is much closer because I run thorn and wastes would compliment my denial package - in your build they just seem not that good.  Especially because you only run a total of 13 cards that produce blue mana.  I'll just assume that 3 Seat of Synod = 2 Seat of Synod and 1 Tolarian Academy - on top of that I run 1 extra basic island and 1 Tolaria West which has been nothing but gold.

Anyway its always good to see more people trying out WU Roboto-Fish

[xwt]

Updated list, taking comments into account and a few games of playtesting.

4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Force of Will
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cunning Wish
3 Counterbalance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlighted Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethys
3 Sword to Plowshare
1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
1 Brainfreeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant

---

I want something better than disenchant, but not Abolish either... hard stuff to come across. Since the combo-win is only an additional out, I don't really mind cunning wish at eot to get brain freeze since I have to win on my turn anyway.

I like the thorns in the board... and it's usually 1 CB, and 3 wishes that get sided out for them.

[Soon-Man]

If your playing Tops, then why not play ponder?

[xwt]

because there is only 60 cards in a good deck, and with all the stuff I put in, I don't feel like I need or want to cut anything for Ponder.

[swawagon]

if you are already playing 4 Etherium Sculptor and 3 Tops wouldn't one Magus of the Future be worth a slot to just randomly go infinite?

[xwt]

I dunno, I'd rather not rely on a fairly useless and weak-bodied overcosted creature to randomly draw my deck when I could win on the spot with brainfreeze. 3 tops and a sculptor is already up to infi-storm.

[mr.grim]

so i have been working on a fish deck for bit as well .....
i started this out as trad.fish build with cards like,,,,stifle....joton grunts and so on.
I went through about three versions or so . the last with the artifish add ons.
take a look and let me know what you think.......
i really like the fact of tfk with your new list ,overall i would assume that your build runs rather smooth. If any what mana probs.do you get?

my fish list.

2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 island
4 tundra
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 lotus petal
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapph
1 black lotus
1 top
1 tormods crypt
3 null rod
4 chalice the void
1 brainstorm
1 mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 fof
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing Truth
4 orims chant
4 negate
2 misdirection
4 fow
1 ponder
1 merchant scroll
1 time walk
1 tinker
4 ethersworn canonist
4 meddling mage
1 darksteel colossus


sb.
1 tormods crypt
2 pithing needle
4 swords to plowshares
1 null rod
1 balance
2 true believer
2 Aura of silence
1 jesters cap
1 sundering titan

as i said let me know what you think.
a good choice tossing in the basics. and one more thing . Any thoughts on crucible?

[ShiftyKapree]

so i have been working on a fish deck for bit as well .....
i started this out as trad.fish build with cards like,,,,stifle....joton grunts and so on.
I went through about three versions or so . the last with the artifish add ons.
take a look and let me know what you think.......
i really like the fact of tfk with your new list ,overall i would assume that your build runs rather smooth. If any what mana probs.do you get?

my fish list.

2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 island
4 tundra
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
1 lotus petal
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapph
1 black lotus
1 top
1 tormods crypt
3 null rod
4 chalice the void
1 brainstorm
1 mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 fof
1 chain of vapor
1 echoing Truth
4 orims chant
4 negate
2 misdirection
4 fow
1 ponder
1 merchant scroll
1 time walk
1 tinker
4 ethersworn canonist
4 meddling mage
1 darksteel colossus


sb.
1 tormods crypt
2 pithing needle
4 swords to plowshares
1 null rod
1 balance
2 true believer
2 Aura of silence
1 jesters cap
1 sundering titan

as i said let me know what you think.
a good choice tossing in the basics. and one more thing . Any thoughts on crucible?

I would cut the Chants from your deck and add Master of Etherium would be the only difference I would make to the deck, other than that it looks pretty solid.

[Darkenslight]

Is there any potential in Skill Borrower from Alara?

Just a thought; extra man, plus you dont' actually need to play that Canonist/Master of Etherium.

[mr.grim]

I don't care for the masters  at all. Im trying to keep it as a "father may i deck",so to me the masters as a draw is not a useful as a chant,or negate and so on.

[Harlequin]

Is there any potential in Skill Borrower from Alara?

Just a thought; extra man, plus you dont' actually need to play that Canonist/Master of Etherium.

Skill Barrower only barrows activated abilities, of which Canonist/Master have none.

[CowWithHat]

It seems to me that the original list doesn't provide the all important fish role of limiting opposing plays (playing only Force of Will, the Counterbalance synergy and Ethersworn Canonist).  In my experience with Vintage, in general, a deck without more of an imposing strategy needs to have a much heavier suite of disruptive elements if it is going to be able to compete with high powered brawlers like Storm and Bomberman style combo wins.  In addition, the deck plays very few answers main or board to the ever present Ichorid problem; I believe all you have is the thorns. 

mr. grim's list is an entirely different animal.  This list has disruption coming out of its ears with Null Rod, Chalice, Chant, Meddling Mage and Ethersworn Canonist to limit what spells your opponent can play while Negate, Force and Misdirection keep threatening spells from resolving to their fullest capacity.  The problem with his deck in my view is that it has neither enough card advantage to support constant disruption throughout a full game nor the necessary threats to finish an opponent before he can find a way out from under the disruptive thumb.  Also, in a deck with as many artifact mana sources as you have, in addition to the full five strips, do ever find your self looking at Null Rod or just a hand in general wishing that you could play your own spells.

[mr.grim]

I would like to fit a crucible in. The only time that i have a problem with playing my own stuff is at chalice for 2. In the version before this one I had in grunts in the place of chants. The control of chants fit better.