New England Vintage

[Eastman]

So all I've ever known is NE vintage, and in that I've only ever been a small part.  I'd like to talk about where we are in this region.  Yes this is in part motivated by Travis' expression of loss after his recent tournament.  I will add that for my group of players that tournament was an awesome experience that has largely rebuilt our interest in the T1 format.

But the format has come up and down and up in my vintage tenure.  I started when cards were cheap here, and they're expensive now.  I know the stores, and the people, and most of the pieces of power and the proxies.  I also know that Zherbus used to play here, in the glory days.

some info:

ABOUT ELD: His tournaments are the best run I've ever seen in this region.  And I've seen them all: Cape Cod (the store I got kicked from for having an outside purchased soda), Hadley, New Hampshire, The Mykeatog Events (I won jewelry for an Ex at one), Travis, Waterbury, Ray, RI tourneys in two places, Pandemonium games, ... and many more...
    Eric knows how to just do a good job for the group he's got.  He sends out prizes that are worth more to the Vintage competitor than they are to the average magic player.  He keeps things going smooth and error-free (I was at a perhaps now infamous Connecticut tournament with over 100 vintage players where round 2 was re-run due to a computer error AFTER the round was completed).  And most importantly, he's a good Vintage player who knows that the format depends on communication and, most importantly, camaraderie.

ABOUT MANA DRAINS: There are more here, like, physically -there are more pieces of cardboard that were printed 'mana drain' in the mid-90s HERE than anywhere else.  I don't care to conjecture about how that happened.  But the result is that the format hates on decks that are bad against drain decks.  And further, I don't think the format so much loves on decks that beat up against drain decks (in a minute).  Rather, I think the format loves drain decks piloted by the best players.  The reason drain beating decks don't always succeed is there is still a very mixed meta, drain heaviness or no, and decks that beat drains around here tend to be the jank, and they lose to all the other wash.  The very good drain players in this region (read: Rich Shay, Steve Houdlette, DA, - I was once one) beat both the jank AND the other drains, and they consistently top 8.  This has happened, to my knowledge, since Crazy Carl won with Hulk. 

So I've discussed the most important card and the most important tournaments still in New England.  There is no question the region has had a history with this format.  What I am curious about is where people think the format here is. I would be curious to know.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF NEW ENGLAND VINTAGE, TODAY?

    BOTH:
        (1)  THE FORMAT'S HEALTH in NE
  and
        (2)  THE FUTURE OF THE FORMAT in NE


   and of course I'll add as a last bit:

   the next tournament I plan on attending is Myriad on Dec. 6, and Myriad's contribution (yes, dice included Dan) can't be forgotten. 
      [PS: Travis did a hell of a job this past weekend - and I think Ray now knows he has GOT to run a sick tourney this Spring/Summer - and all should attend]

[M.Solymossy]

All I can say from a Midwestern Standpoint is that Travis' tournament was scheduled at a rough time for me.  I only had 3 weeks of classes for the semester left, and all my CS and Business professors crammed in as much a load as they could down my throat.  I was at Traviscon#1, and it was a great event, ran smooth with a ton of people.  But that was also in the summer. 

I can say that if Ray runs a Waterbury in between mid-May and mid-August, that I will be there.  And I can't promise others, but I will say chances are high that we will have two or more cars full.

[Demonic Attorney]

I guess I'll be rehashing some of my remarks from the threads I started in Community. 

The format's health in New England.  Eastman is right that NE has always been a pillar of the Vintage world, at least arguably the most important one of all.  Nevertheless, even NE isn't immune from the recent downward trend in tournament attendance.  Where once I saw 32-40 person tournaments, I now see 18-22.  I suppose there's no one comprehensive explanation for that, but I do think Samite's points in my community threads are especially pertinent.

Before I get to what he said specifically, I want to add one other observation.  It's always struck me that Vintage has been much slower to gain and lose players than other formats.  The cost of acquiring cards and the (in my opinion erroneous) perception of the Vintage community as insular and unaccepting have led to Type 1 adding fewer new players than the other formats were able to, back when I played them.  At the same time, Vintage players have always been much more dedicated to the game than players in other formats, and here is where Samite's point becomes significant.

A number of the format's mainstays, people I once saw at every tournament I attended, seem to be dropping off.  At one point in the past or another, I would see the same regular faces at every single tournament I played in.  Corey Fraiser, Micah Greenberg, Pat Broderick, Nick Rodriguez, Matt McNally, Travis LaPlante, Mike Lydon, Stefan Ellsworth, Mike Daniels, Rob D'Alfonso, Andy Farias, Outlaw, Don Belcastro, Ian Mulligan, Steve Padinha, Angelo Santiago, and Sam Best, just to name a few.  In the last 3 events I attended, I don't remember seeing any of them.  Some of those names haven't been involved with Vintage in well over a year.  I think this speaks in favor of Samite's point about people's personal lives pulling them away from Vintage, at least for a time.  Coupled with Vintage being slow to add new players, the loss of so many regulars becomes even more important.

That's not to say I'm seriously worried about NE Vintage-- at least not yet.  Another benefit to having a devoted player base is having an equally devoted TO base.  Most (but not all) of our TO's don't run events as business endeavors; they hold tournaments to be part of the unique community based around Vintage.  I think this is beneficial because it means that a downward trend in players, at least on a temporary basis, isn't necessarily fatal to the format.  Tournaments might have smaller prize support, and they might become less frequent, but they'll still happen because players and TO's alike are interested in the game for the sake of the game, instead of solely for the sake of making money.


As for NE Vintage's future...I'm less sure of what to say.  I think that player loyalty will keep NE Vintage going for at least the short-term.  Even though we seem to be losing some amount of players, we still have enough mainstays that tournaments are competitive and financially viable.  The downward trend can't continue indefinitely, but I think that, like many things, interest in Type 1 is cyclical and the format should be able to continue until our absent players find more time and/or a renewed interest in the game and end up coming back. 

One other thing, and this will be a direct reprisal of my comments from the community threads.  I wasn't part of this format in the beginning.  But, from what I've learned, it didn't begin with 200+ person Waterburies, multiple SCG P9 tournaments in a year, or international events with thousands of dollars in prizes.  It started as a shared pastime among a close-knit group of friends who shared a passion for the unique aspects of the Type 1 format, and gradually grew from there.  It's possible that, due to the downward trend in players, we might be headed back to the earlier days of Vintage, where it was a smaller, local pursuit.  But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. 

People are more likely to stick with something they have a genuine passion for, instead of a hobby that's maintained out of convenience or an attempt to make money.  The latter kind of Vintage players will come and go, as this latest fluctuation of players has shown us.  But the former group will remain, even if it's just them in the end.  Presuming to speak for the people who were part of Vintage long before I was, I'll say that we don't play for convenience-- there are bars much closer to where we live and which have much hotter girls.  We don't play for money-- there are other formats that offer prizes that dwarf even the biggest Type 1 events.  We play based on a genuine love of the game, and that is something I don't see evaporating anytime soon. 

[Myriad Games]

What with the holidays coming up, I haven't had time of late to scribe much in the recent discussions about Vintage viability. I'm taking a moment to chime in here to say that Myriad Games is dedicated to continuing to supporting the Vintage community in New England by providing regular monthly events as we have been for the last five years. We've run nearly 60 Vintage events so far, and we'll be happy to continue providing that service for as long as they are enough players interested and able enough to attend.

We always encourage everyone to bring their friends along and make an event of the trip. That's why I play and travel for events. We find that everyone has a better time when they're sharing the Vintage experience with friends. So grab your friends, throw some cards together, and come planning to have a good time, win or lose. This is a wild and crazy format and that's why we enjoy it, so make plans now to come join in the fun!

[Samite Healer]

As Demonic Attorney has already mentioned, the Vintage community is slow in its accumulation of new players and we have lost several staple players over the past few years.  Some have left the game entirely, some only our format, and there have been very few people to replace those who left. 

Vintage really started to thrive in 2003 after a small group of New Englanders started promoting the format and increasing interest among other Magic players in the region.  When it became apparent to stores that interest in our format was more than purely marginal, weekly events started happening at all the places that Eastman already mentioned.  Some events were run well, others poorly, and some purely for profiteering purposes - but there were an incredible amount of events spread out between several states, and often competing with each other.

I strongly believe that the resurgence of Type I in 2003 was heavily related to the amount of like-minded individuals entering the university stages of their lives in New England.  Call it coincidence, random convergence, or excellent communication between intelligent individuals (NE has infinite universities and colleges), the fact remains that NE Vintage saw an incredible amount of activity while most or all the "veteran" players were in their college years and a decline since that period has ended.  It takes a considerable amount of free time to properly advertise, prepare for, and travel to these events and many of us have lost the ability to do so easily.

The way I see the evolution of the NE Vintage Scene since 2003:

Small, fragmented local events --> Pinnacle Events --> Influx of Pinnacle Events --> Failure of Large Events --> (Stable local events AKA Myriads)

So, in the beginning there were no events and, as I stated earlier, local events started cropping up.  Many of us attended tournaments every weekend, sometimes two, and there were a few really large events per year such as Waterbury.  When Vintage popularity was at its peak other people started running tournaments, and these large-scale events started becoming available everywhere.  Klown ran an event in upstate New York, and then Stokinger ran the infamous x2 round two Connecticut tournament to profit from the Type I players.  A year or two later, SCG decided to run an entire power nine series and thus the recently expired modern scene was created (recently expired, as in, no more SCG events since they are no longer profitable).

As soon as 100-200 person events became expected, they were no longer special.

These tournaments became a dime-a-dozen and were no longer hyped or anticipated the way the previous events had been in the past.  Anybody remember the trash-talking threads back in the day?  I didn't even participate in any of them, but it's hard to forget their significance to several of the members on these boards.  Now that I think about it, many of the people that they would be significant to are no longer here anymore anywa.  Sigh.

Since traveling and carpooling was important for these events, it became much simpler for people to "skip" events and simply "catch the next one."  I can't even recall how many conversations I've had over the past three years with people regarding this issue.  Quite naturally, the results are there to back this up as tournaments went from having really large numbers to smaller as the amount of large events increased.

On a different note, I think it's important to mention the impact that the formation of Vintage teams has had on the NE scene.  When TMD was first started, and shortly after the Vintage boom, this became the primary place for intelligent discussion on anything related to our hobby (and to some extent, it still is).  The people on these boards were your friends, not strangers you interacted with over the internet.  As soon as I moved to Boston for school I PM'ed Zherbus asking for information about players that lived in the area.  Redman and CooberP went to Harvard, so I went over there introduced myself, and we played some games.  I bumped into Ric Flair at TJ Collectibles in Milford one day and found out he lived around the corner from me.

I can still remember the first time I went to Hadley, MA.  I had my car up at school for the weekend and drove out by myself to the tournament almost two hours away and went 16-1 with Keeper, beating Pernicious Dude in the finals of a Mox Ruby tournament.  Several months later, I found myself spending almost every weekend with these guys from Hadley and UMass Amherst driving every weekend to attend tournaments in one of four states.  Team Hadley was formed during that period, and I remember working on the development of decks apart from TMD for the first time.  Anyone remember The Chronic? (I never played it, I ran Keeper with Stifles instead).

Anyway, my point is that I was much more inclined to travel to events when I had a group to go with and people to test with on a regular basis.  I can look at all the theory I want (theorycraft anyone?) but until I actually sit down and play the games I won't be prepared for an event or have as much fun.  Sure, there are good players where I live (shouts to Jimmy and Nick), but the time factor at this point in my life plays into the equation as well and I can't always get the job done.

Regarding the Future of Type 1 in the Northeast:

I believe the environment will remain in a fragmented state, not in terms of events, but in attendance with a few large events thrown into the mix.  The stable tournaments will continue to thrive such as ELD, Bluebell, and Myriad, but it's going to be difficult to get players who don't live in those regions to attend.  I'd love to play Type I but I can't devote 4 hours to drive to an ELD or 5 hours to Myriad and several other people who have moved on from college are no doubt in a similar banana boat.  Large reunion-type events like TravisCon are usually worth the drive, but not for 20 man events.  Type 1 has reverted into a state of "playing Magic with a few friends" and we all drive out to a tournament once in awhile kind of thing, except instead of playing Shivan Dragons we all play real decks.

Regarding The Mana Drain Syndrome:

Whether there is a large concentration of physical Mana Drain cards here, a lack of Workshops, or lack of combo is not nearly as important as the fact that the good players in the northeast like to play with drains.  End of story.  I've always said that if me, Eric Dupuis, Rich Shay, Andy Probasco, Eastman, Roland Chang, or any other solid player all started playing with Workshops then the NE would be the Workshop capital of the world.  Or, the combo capital of the world.  It seems that most of the really good Vintage players in other areas like to play whatever deck they think has the best chance of winning.  If I had a 58% chance of winning with a TPS deck and only a 56% chance with a Mana Drain deck, I'd go drains all day.  We're stubborn bastards.

[Godder]

As soon as 100-200 person events became expected, they were no longer special.

These tournaments became a dime-a-dozen and were no longer hyped or anticipated the way the previous events had been in the past.  Anybody remember the trash-talking threads back in the day?  I didn't even participate in any of them, but it's hard to forget their significance to several of the members on these boards.  Now that I think about it, many of the people that they would be significant to are no longer here anymore anywa.  Sigh.

Since traveling and carpooling was important for these events, it became much simpler for people to "skip" events and simply "catch the next one."  I can't even recall how many conversations I've had over the past three years with people regarding this issue.  Quite naturally, the results are there to back this up as tournaments went from having really large numbers to smaller as the amount of large events increased.

The first line there sums it up for me, but I left the rest of it in because I think that's a major point to remember: events are only special when they aren't common. I remember when a Mox tourney was big and a Lotus tourney was massive. Waterbury and SCG raised the bar, but everyone jumping on the bandwagon really killed it, because suddenly events had to compete on prizes to get any attention, and it became unsustainable.

(No, I'm not from the USA, but I thought it was worth highlighting the above anyway)

[Myriad Games]

Waterbury and SCG raised the bar, but everyone jumping on the bandwagon really killed it, because suddenly events had to compete on prizes to get any attention, and it became unsustainable.

Too true. There have been many times when the proliferation of events has led to scheduling overlaps that killed attendance at one or both events. There has also been an issue with erstwhile tournament organizers throwing up large unsustainable prize structures that make sustainable prize structures pale in comparison. Although those organizers usually only lasted for 1-3 events, they damaged the overall proposition of attending those regular events.

Vintage can be a very intimidating format, so players and organizers need to take extra care to be welcoming to new players. This is the reason behind our diversified prize structures and new player prizes. In our experience over the years, one sour encounter with one individual opponent has often been enough to scare away new players from Vintage.

I think ideally the Vintage community needs regular monthly events with larger events once every quarter or once every six months. Regular events at stores that are dedicated to helping introduce new players and build up the community are essential to the survival and growth of the format.

[Smmenen]

Jeff,

This is an overbroad generalization:

Vintage really started to thrive in 2003 after a small group of New Englanders started promoting the format and increasing interest among other Magic players in the region.

The big team of the era preceding it, and the two big teams that emerged in that era, Short Bus and Meandeck, originated outside of New England.  Shortbus has its roots in NOVA, as the remnant Paragons, and Mean Deck was the Midwest crew, with a much smaller New England contingent.   Although Waterburies were going on, alot of the action was not in New England, it was in the mid west and elsewhere.   The Vintage champs of 2003 was a major milestone, the first major Vintage Championship - and it had 180 players.   That prompted SCG to get on the bandwagon. 

The first two SCG were in Virginia. And the third, SCG Chicago in 2004, was LARGER than the two Virginia SCGs that preceded it.   And that crew was almost entirely midwestern.   It's just not accurate to say that Vintage thrived simply because of New Englanders promoting the format and increasing the popularity in the region.   

All of the trashtalking you cited - yeah, all of that was Shortbus v. Meandeck.

[Samite Healer]

Jeff,

This is an overbroad generalization:

Vintage really started to thrive in 2003 after a small group of New Englanders started promoting the format and increasing interest among other Magic players in the region.

Actually, it isn't.  I don't recall hearing about a single other place in the United States that was running 2, 3, and 4 power tournaments per weekend.  I'm not attempting to discredit what people in other areas have done to promote the format, but it's the Vintage players of New England that got the ball rolling and turned Mox tournaments into mainstream events.

The big team of the era preceding it, and the two big teams that emerged in that era, Short Bus and Meandeck, originated outside of New England.  Shortbus has its roots in NOVA, as the remnant Paragons, and Mean Deck was the Midwest crew, with a much smaller New England contingent.   Although Waterburies were going on, alot of the action was not in New England, it was in the mid west and elsewhere.

The "action" your referring to in the midwest might be different than the "action" I'm describing.  I'm talking about week after week of Mox tournaments on Saturday AND Sunday.  I'm talking about seven weeks in a row with power tournaments, and New England players that went to ALL of them.  That may have become the norm out there in the past few years, but it certainly wasn't in 2002 and 2003.

Sure, I remember when Paragons were still around, you joined the forums, and your title was "Baby Paragon" for awhile.  Team formation never really developed in New England until much later because most of the players communicated with each other regularly anyway and were fairly good friends.  It was really only as a response to the growing Vintage community, large events, and team secrecy that teams started cropping up in the northeast.

The first two SCG were in Virginia. And the third, SCG Chicago in 2004, was LARGER than the two Virginia SCGs that preceded it.   And that crew was almost entirely midwestern.   It's just not accurate to say that Vintage thrived simply because of New Englanders promoting the format and increasing the popularity in the region.

At this stage, nobody is denying that the midwestern crowd had a large player base, skilled players, a few teams, and influence over the community.  All I'm saying is that the Vintage players in the northeast greased the wheels for that explosion in 200X.

All of the trashtalking you cited - yeah, all of that was Shortbus v. Meandeck.

That's great. The mentioning of the old trash-talking threads was to illustrate my point that large events were a big deal in the past, and that is how people perceived them.  See any big rivalries for the latest SCG or TravisCon?

[Smmenen]

Jeff,

This is an overbroad generalization:

Vintage really started to thrive in 2003 after a small group of New Englanders started promoting the format and increasing interest among other Magic players in the region.

Actually, it isn't.  I don't recall hearing about a single other place in the United States that was running 2, 3, and 4 power tournaments per weekend.  I'm not attempting to discredit what people in other areas have done to promote the format, but it's the Vintage players of New England that got the ball rolling and turned Mox tournaments into mainstream events.

The presence of multiple and consecutive power tournaments in the NE does not prove your argument that Vintage magic only really started to thrive after NE started promoting the format and increasing interest in other magic players in the region.   

I saw the same thing - although perhaps not to the same extent as in the NE - happening everywhere.   

I, too, have been watching Vintage since the Bdominia era.   The trajectory of growth was happening everywhere, not simply in the NE.   I would actualy inverse your causal pattern.   The growth in the NE Vintage scene was more a consequence of the growth of Vintage rather than the cause of it.   There were underlying trends that were happening everywhere, they were perhaps just more pronounced in NE because of the concentration of players   

I remember the days when the only vintage scene was the Dulman and 20 person tournaments at neutral ground.  Even though those were the only tournament scenes, the ONLINE tournament scene was by far the most active.  When BDominia died, it wasn't the end of Vintage conversation.  There were several sites that popped up to compete for hte Vintage audience.   The Mana Drain won out.  Vintage, really, only existed online.  I believe what sparked the interest in Vintage and grew it was a combination of interactive elements.  First, it was a more vocal, and intelligent, online presence, spearheaded by forums like the Mana Drain and columnist like Oscar Tan and myself.   Second, this more vocal online presence had led to more tournament organization.   Third, this more vocal online presence also led to more innovation.   This fed the desire for tournament organization.   The wild innovation of 2003 only made these trends more powerful. 

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've certainly noticed over the last year or so, but I never connected it with this particular issue: attendance at European tournaments.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but it looks like tournaments (especially in Italy and Spain) routinely get very high turn outs.  I imagine that TO's from across the pond could tell us a lot about managing events and maintaining communities/metagames.

I posted this in the Community forum, but I think it's also good to reinforce here one of my early experiences with T1 and especially with this site: we're from all over.  I disagree both with the assessment that T1's resurgence started in NE or that it has much to do with any team or rivalry.  Probably a lot of credit rests with Zherbus and those who helped launch this site, but the real value for me would be to log on and see that much of the commentary I was admiring was coming from Germany, California, Midwest, Virginia, NYC, and even little Hadley.  The plurality of metagames, playstyles and geographies that have driven T1 have been here since the origination of this site.

[Smmenen]

Just as a point of clarification, I was not citing team rivalry to explain the growth of vintage, but to illustrate that the Vintage boom was more widespread than Jeff was suggesting.

[Grand Inquisitor]

point of clarification

Yep, your 2nd post does a nice job elucidating your intentions from the first.  Also, I think Eastman's comments are more attached to his (and my) excitement of the energy of the time (which was very strong in NE and I'm sure elsewhere).  Hopefully there's nuggets there which can still be mined to bring new momentum to what I think is an extremely healthy metagame.

[Webster]

I've certainly noticed over the last year or so, but I never connected it with this particular issue: attendance at European tournaments.  I haven't crunched the numbers, but it looks like tournaments (especially in Italy and Spain) routinely get very high turn outs.  I imagine that TO's from across the pond could tell us a lot about managing events and maintaining communities/metagames.

I posted this in the Community forum, but I think it's also good to reinforce here one of my early experiences with T1 and especially with this site: we're from all over.  I disagree both with the assessment that T1's resurgence started in NE or that it has much to do with any team or rivalry.  Probably a lot of credit rests with Zherbus and those who helped launch this site, but the real value for me would be to log on and see that much of the commentary I was admiring was coming from Germany, California, Midwest, Virginia, NYC, and even little Hadley.  The plurality of metagames, playstyles and geographies that have driven T1 have been here since the origination of this site.

As far as I know, type 1 in northern California started with the C&Js tournaments on Thursdays. They were sanctioned with free entry and minimal prizes.

I started going to FNM at C&J's to draft in June 2000. As far as I know, the type 1 tournaments started in July 2001 which is when my match history starts. The initial group of people was an offshoot of the FNM group. I know that Jeff, the store owner, had personal type 1 cards which suggests that he liked the format prior to July 2001. I don't know what started the desire for type 1 other than that.

The community seemed very sheltered from outside information from whatever internet forums were the rage at the time. The earliest archived post on TMD regarding the Thursday type 1 was in November 2002. The tournaments afterwards were much larger than prior. There was no team rivalry or teams for that matter other than an extension of meandeck later on in 2003. Given all of this information, I think that the tournaments increased in size due to the environment. The scene was laid back. Having no entry fee made for a casual setting where people could just play and have fun. The location was within 30 minutes of most people that played.

At its height, the tournaments attracted 40+ people. I'm sure Saucemaster and Fishhead, wherever you two may be today, remember what it was like in the summer of 2003.

For whatever reason, the interest began to dwindle and eventually the tournaments couldn't sustain themselves. Perhaps it was from people moving on like what was posted earlier.






On a tangent: I think you, G.I., actually came to one of these one week. You were out on this coast for whatever reason and stopped in. I may be mistaken though. Senility is beginning to set in. IIRC, you were playing some gro variant with isochron scepter.

[Grand Inquisitor]

On a tangent: I think you, G.I., actually came to one of these one week. You were out on this coast for whatever reason and stopped in. I may be mistaken though. Senility is beginning to set in. IIRC, you were playing some gro variant with isochron scepter.

Good memory!  Yeah, I was out on a business trip and played 4c iso-gro...ahh, the good old days.  I played some guy with impressive pro-tour stuff round one who didn't realize I was also playing AKs, then I almost mized a mask player when I brainstormed and needed to hit sol ring yawgwill, did so, and then realized I fetched wrong three turns earlier.  Good crew there, I think someone gave me a ride back to the hotel.