[Discussion] Vintage B & R list

[wox2]

I was thinking about B & R list and some changes (unrestricting and restricting Gush, restricting Brainstorm, Ponder...).

The following cards are banned in Vintage tournaments:

    * Any ante card
    * Chaos Orb
    * Falling Star
    * Shahrazad

The following cards are restricted* in Vintage tournaments

    * Ancestral Recall
    * Balance
    * Black Lotus
    * Brainstorm
    * Burning Wish
    * Channel
    * Crop Rotation
    * Demonic Consultation
    * Demonic Tutor
    * Enlightened Tutor
    * Entomb
    * Fact or Fiction
    * Fastbond
    * Flash
    * Frantic Search
    * Gifts Ungiven
    * Grim Monolith
    * Gush
    * Imperial Seal
    * Library of Alexandria
    * Lion’s Eye Diamond
    * Lotus Petal
    * Mana Crypt
    * Mana Vault
    * Memory Jar
    * Merchant Scroll
    * Mind’s Desire
    * Mox Emerald
    * Mox Jet
    * Mox Pearl
    * Mox Ruby
    * Mox Sapphire
    * Mystical Tutor
    * Necropotence
    * Ponder
    * Regrowth
    * Sol Ring
    * Strip Mine
    * Time Walk
    * Time Vault (Effective September 20, 2008)
    * Timetwister
    * Tinker
    * Tolarian Academy
    * Trinisphere
    * Vampiric Tutor
    * Wheel of Fortune
    * Windfall
    * Yawgmoth’s Bargain
    * Yawgmoth’s Will

 When I checked the list I noticed the list contains all overpowered cards except Ad Nauseam and near none cards that "just" playable. How will you change it if you can make ANY changes?

My opinion:

Erase from the list:

Grim Monolith - Not good enought to be compared with rituals, not good enought for shops. Can be played in budget decks.
Enlightened Tutor- There were three targets in Gush era - Black Lotus, Oath of Druids, Fastbond. Now there are just two targets. 
Entomb- Is Dragon Danger for Vintage? I don´t believe deck that is damageble by stifle, Force, graveyard removal, creature bounce or creature removal... Entomb may increase number of T1 kills with Dragon, but it is much more risky to play Dragon over Storm combo Decks. Sideboards are prepared for both Ichorid and Dragon.

Ad Nauseam-Yawghmoth´s Bargain - I believe Yawghmoth´s Bargain should not stay on the list when Ad Nauseam is unrestricted. Solution - add Ad Nauseam to B & R list or unrestrict Bargain.   
 

[bisamratte]

I agree with your suggestions for unrestrictions, but I think that the rules with Bargain and Ad Nausean are acceptable the way they are.
Bargain wins immediatelly in every not-ANT-combo -> restriction. Ad Nauseam wins immediatelly too, but you cannot play other Bombs (like Desire or Bargain) in the same deck. If you restrict AN, you kill the deck. ANT by the way is not stronger or faster than other speedstyled combodecks like Hordentendrils or whatever.
Also you cannot play Force of Will in ANT. Pact is no real compensation, because you cannot counter Sphere, Null Rod oder Chalice with it. That's why I do not see any problems with unrestricted AN and restricted Bargain....

Another thing: what du you think of unrestricting Frantic Search and Crop Rotation? The carddisadvantege they create is a heavy drawback, and they are no Tinkers...

[zeus-online]

Yet another B/R Discussion...are these even allowed anymore?

Bargain is infi better then ad nauseam...so no way! the rest would probably be fine...Oh and burning wish could get unrestricted aswell.

With monolith, entomb, burning wish and E. tutor of the list it's pretty much perfect imo, although some other cards like fof and ponder could be considered aswell - They'd probably see alot of play though...maybe even push some other cards into the "unplayable" pile.

/Zeus

[bisamratte]

I'm not sure about FoF beeing too strong in Draincontrol decks, which are very powerfull even without fact atm. 5 cards advantage with instant speed is really devastating and therefor fact is one of controls' best gamesweepers/topdecks especially during the topdeck-/stallingphase of a game.

I've been playing GAT, knowing how powerfull Ponder sometimes can be. I could understand, if they do not unrestrict it... Do we really need an unrestriced Cantrip anymore? It would be nice for fast Combo, but Control definitely does not need it, having 1 Brainstorm, 1 Anc, 1 Ponder, 4 Thirsts, Fact and Gifts. Together with tutors you have a stabil drawengine for drainbased decks.   

[nineisnoone]

I feel like I commented in a thread like this recently... but anyways, my unrestrictions...

Entomb -
Dragon doesn't even play it as a one of (but I bet it'd play it as a 4x).  Even still, it doesn't address the main problem with Dragon (that it's answered by nearly everything). 
I don't think re-animator strategies will be strong enough to break the format, but I do think they'd be viable fish-style alternatives.  Might even be able to bring back Suicide Black (which I would adore). 
The main issue would be Entomb + Welder, which would be really strong.  I could see that as being a very high-end competitive build, but I don't see it as being dominant though.

Grim Monolith -
I'd like to hear the argument for it be restricted....

Enlightened Tutor -
There are broken artifacts. There are broken enchantments.  The problem is either you don't really need more tutors for them, especially top deck tutors (in decks like TPS) or in the alternative, they are just so many of them that tutors would only slow you down (in decks like 9 sphere). 

Burning Wish -
The only thing that made this restriction worthy was the original Long.dec.  But that was dealt with by restricting LED.  Seems very similar to the Gush/Merchant Scroll/Ponder/Flash mass banning.  They hit the core card (LED) but also hit it's extension card (Burning Wish/Gush/Flash). 
This really doesn't need to be restricted.  Anything that you'd want to wish for, you would rather have in your main deck.  I don't even think there are enough useful sorcery spells to warrant a Burning Wish board.

Gifts Ungiven -
Gifts Ungiven is really a combo win first that has the bonus of leaving you at CA.  Even when Gifts was unrestricted, decks seemed like they were going down the route of running fewer Gifts Ungiven than the full four.
In my opinion, they got it right when they hit Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm and Ponder.  Those cards were the backbone of broken blue.  At four mana, Gifts is a fair card. 
Let's also realize that since Gifts has been printed we've seen the printing of Thoughtseize, Thorn of Amethyst, Gaddock Teeg, and I'm sure some other cards that I'm neglecting.  So there are more tools to deal with it now than before.

Fact or Fiction -
The most hesitant card I am to unrestrict, because I know that it would immediately become a four of in already strong decks. I don't know if decks would run 3x Gifts, I think many would run 2x, but not 4x, with the decision to run 3 or 2 boiling down to player preference.
Drawing 3 cards for 4 mana while loading your graveyard at instant speed and for only 1 colored mana is very strong.  I would say though if they unrestricted Gush and unerrated to Flash, I would like to see what Vintage players could do with Fact or Fiction, because as it has been used in the past it is not restriction worthy.  I imagine that it would become that subtle card that powers out blue like Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm, but its higher cost I feel warrants it being given a shot.

Flash/Gush -
If they keep Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm restricted, I can see these cards being unrestricted.  Much like restricting LED made the Burning Wish restriction redundant, restricting Flash/Gush is redundant when we already restricted Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm and Ponder. 

Edit: lol.  thanks Troy. 

[beder]

And what about removing balance from the restricted list.
Mind Twist has beed removed and nobody now feels like this was a mistake.
I think that balance could also be unrestricted. Of course, balance can sometimes be devastating but regarding to all the new options and tactics existing in vintage, I think this is really no longer the game breaker it used to be when restricted, back in the nineties.

[Shock Wave]

And what about removing balance from the restricted list.
Mind Twist has beed removed and nobody now feels like this was a mistake.
I think that balance could also be unrestricted. Of course, balance can sometimes be devastating but regarding to all the new options and tactics existing in vintage, I think this is really no longer the game breaker it used to be when restricted, back in the nineties.

Balance is an absolutely busted card. It would be very unwise to remove it from the B&R list.

[Smmenen]

And what about removing balance from the restricted list.
Mind Twist has beed removed and nobody now feels like this was a mistake.
I think that balance could also be unrestricted. Of course, balance can sometimes be devastating but regarding to all the new options and tactics existing in vintage, I think this is really no longer the game breaker it used to be when restricted, back in the nineties.

Balance is an absolutely busted card. It would be very unwise to remove it from the B&R list.

I don't think it would have been that bad 6 months ago.   

1) It is certainly alot fairer than Flash at a much inferior casting cost.  (White << Blue)

2) in a format with 4 Scroll, 4 Ponder, and 4 Brainstorm, it is pretty easy to stabilize with just a Mox and a land and go nuts very quickly. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Flash/Gush -
If they keep Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm restricted, I can see these cards being unrestricted.  Much like restricting LED made the Burning Wish restriction redundant, restricting Flash/Gush is redundant when we already restricted Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm and Ponder.

Fixed your mistake I think.  But anyway, I agree.  Gush, and especially Flash are harmless now that the cards that made them possible are restricted.  Don't get me wrong, they'd still be played.  But the decks that used them as engines wouldn't be nearly so dominating.  And besides, Flash was being contained by MSPaint before the restrictions anyway.  Painter decks would still have a big advantage over it.

Peace,

-Troy

[beder]

And what about removing balance from the restricted list.
Mind Twist has beed removed and nobody now feels like this was a mistake.
I think that balance could also be unrestricted. Of course, balance can sometimes be devastating but regarding to all the new options and tactics existing in vintage, I think this is really no longer the game breaker it used to be when restricted, back in the nineties.

Balance is an absolutely busted card. It would be very unwise to remove it from the B&R list.

Well, it has been restricted ~14 years ago. In that time, it was surely busted. I still remember me loosing so many games against the original balance deck, in which balance was at the same time a wrath of god, an armageddon and a mind twist... Sure it was powerfull... But it was 14 years ago.
If we have a look at it now, balance is almost never played as a one of. To be efficent as a 4 of, one would have to build a dedicated deck different from existing ones (except parfait). Would this deck be busted, I am not so sure. Would this deck be a new viable option, perhaps.

[EnialisLiadon]

I would keep Entomb and Crop Rotation on the list because getting Strip Mine shouldn't be so easy.  It's not so much Dragon or Academy respectively, it's mostly Strip Mine.

[Shock Wave]

I would keep Entomb and Crop Rotation on the list because getting Strip Mine shouldn't be so easy.  It's not so much Dragon or Academy respectively, it's mostly Strip Mine.

I agree. That's something I never thought of and is a very important issue to keep into consideration.

[nineisnoone]

Yes, Troy.  I definitely meant restricted.  

And what about removing balance from the restricted list.
Mind Twist has beed removed and nobody now feels like this was a mistake.
I think that balance could also be unrestricted. Of course, balance can sometimes be devastating but regarding to all the new options and tactics existing in vintage, I think this is really no longer the game breaker it used to be when restricted, back in the nineties.

I could actually see the working, but I think most people don't have a strong desire to see it come off the list so I doubt it'll happen.  

As much as the sadist in me wants to play a deck with Azorius Chancery, Null Rod ,Balance, Wasteland/Strip, Stifle, and Cursecatcher, the reasonable side of me realizes that I don't really want to have to play against that either.  (Yet, oddly I don't mind Ichorid.  Go figure.)

I would keep Entomb and Crop Rotation on the list because getting Strip Mine shouldn't be so easy.  It's not so much Dragon or Academy respectively, it's mostly Strip Mine.

Hmmm... hadn't considered that.  But then again Sylvan Scrying is unrestricted and it gets it in your hand and without the loss of an existing land for only 1 more mana.  

[EnialisLiadon]

I would keep Entomb and Crop Rotation on the list because getting Strip Mine shouldn't be so easy.  It's not so much Dragon or Academy respectively, it's mostly Strip Mine.

Hmmm... hadn't considered that.  But then again Sylvan Scrying is unrestricted and it gets it in your hand and without the loss of an existing land for only 1 more mana.  

Scrying costing twice as much and not putting it into play kind of blows.  Sorcery-speed is similarly lame.  You could argue that Entomb doesn't put it into play either, but Entomb also has a lot of utility with Welder and obv Dragon.

[nineisnoone]

Scrying costing twice as much and not putting it into play kind of blows.  Sorcery-speed is similarly lame.  You could argue that Entomb doesn't put it into play either, but Entomb also has a lot of utility with Welder and obv Dragon.

I was thinking mostly that it would be just as consistent of a way to get to a strip lock than Entomb or Crop.  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on either part (the Crop/Entomb Strip interaction or Scrying sucking), but I think the fact that Scrying basically seems unplayable is an indicator that while it may be a very strong effect (Entomb/Rotation for Strip), it might be permissible.  For example, Ponder is restricted, yet it's +1 mana equivalents SP and Impulse have seen play.  While obviously not the same, I feel despite Scrying problems if tutoring for a Strip mine was so strong that it warrants restriction, Scrying would at least get some action.

EDIT:  Though this argument really just goes towards Crop, as Entomb has can't be evaluated in the same "tutored for land" manner.

[Beatdown]

Fact or fiction
I believe this card could be removed from the B/R list without causing a huge warping of the format. Also, it is a very skill intensive card with player interaction, and that is what vintage should be about to me. This should not be a rock paper scissors format where decks simply roll to or over eachother, but where skill can be a large factor in winning.

Regrowth
Having eternal witness off the list and this on seems quite redundant. Also, what is regrowth really going to do to the environment? The most pernicious thing I can think of is tutor>recall>regrowth>recall which honestly doesn't seem all that broken to me. Drawing 3 cards for 3 mana is basically a thirst for knowledge.

Entomb
I would like to see entomb come off the list to make dragon or possibly even reanimator viable. Who needs oath when you can ritual entomb/animate a 8/8 hasty beater. As far as helping to get a strip lock i think this is a minor concern. You would need a workshop to play the crucible then a black mana to play entomb and wait a turn to get it online, putting you at least at turn 3. Because of the increase in viability that entomb would bring to several architypes I think it should come off.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Fact Or Fiction is an insane bomb, make no mistake. The ability to pile on massive card advantage would probably warp the format into a simple dichotomy of Big-Mana Blue decks (Tezzeret for now, but w/e kill, honestly) and the counter-punchers who are likely just playing a deck because it tests favorably against Big-Mana Blue.

One card that I would love to play around with a set of for a couple of months would be Demonic Consultation. It's the absolute epitome of efficiency as far as tutors are concerned, yet the card is rarely played, which is a testament to the constraints that the card places on your deck design. It's a very difficult card to leverage fully, to be perfectly honest. I really enjoy playing it in Ad Nauseam. Unrestricting it may lead to a particularly brutal build of Meandeck Tendrils, but if you're willing to gamble your entry fee on Mensa Combo, be my guest. (It truly is fun to play, and I've Top 8'ed with it a few times, but it's an insane grind.)

[yatagirlofchaos]

Unrestricted Consult would be fucking insane with Ad Nauseum. Not in a good way either.

[nineisnoone]

Fact Or Fiction is an insane bomb, make no mistake. The ability to pile on massive card advantage would probably warp the format into a simple dichotomy of Big-Mana Blue decks (Tezzeret for now, but w/e kill, honestly) and the counter-punchers who are likely just playing a deck because it tests favorably against Big-Mana Blue.

It makes blue decks better, but I don't think 4x Fact or Fiction > 4x Merchant Scroll and 4x Brainstorm.

One card that I would love to play around with a set of for a couple of months would be Demonic Consultation. It's the absolute epitome of efficiency as far as tutors are concerned, yet the card is rarely played, which is a testament to the constraints that the card places on your deck design. It's a very difficult card to leverage fully, to be perfectly honest. I really enjoy playing it in Ad Nauseam. Unrestricting it may lead to a particularly brutal build of Meandeck Tendrils, but if you're willing to gamble your entry fee on Mensa Combo, be my guest. (It truly is fun to play, and I've Top 8'ed with it a few times, but it's an insane grind.)

It might me difficult to play in a Tendrils deck, but any other non-combo deck that runs black would necessitate 4x Demonic Consultation.  Plus I would imagine there would be combo decks that could take advantage of it as well.  I would start with a base of 4x Demonic Consultation, 4x Painter's Servant, 4x Grindstone.  And then of course you have Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and Demonic Tutor.  Should stay restricted.

[Vegeta2711]

Demonic Consultation

No. Just no. This shouldn't even need explanation. Demonic Consultation was the best tutor ever printed for pretty much any deck whose strategy didn't revolve around resolving a singleton in the deck. It would take about a day before somebody modded / remade a combo deck to abuse a set and put every other deck to shame. They won't even let the black card-disadvantage tutors out of the pen in multiples, no way they let that absurdity ever happen again.

[LotusHead]

I feel that the restriction of Ponder was unnecessary, but I understand the restriction of Brainstorm. Seriously, the spell was that good.

But Entomb, Crop Rotation and Demonic Consultation all are in a grey area. "Too broken" or "Not as Broken as Workshop or Bazaar"

Maybe Wizards will unrestrict one of those 3 to shake things up.  At least we don't have to fear Dream Halls never being played ever due to it's restrictedness.

Balance should always be restricted. I was there in the days of 4 Balance.dec. I know, because nobody would trade me their precious Armaggeddons or Wrath of Gods. I made them pay with my white weenie banding deck (with 4 balance).

[yatagirlofchaos]

Consult is far better than both Entomb and Rotate. It's ridiculous.

[LotusHead]

Consult is far better than both Entomb and Rotate. It's ridiculous.

They are all equally unbroken from a Shop Player's persperspective with Chalice for 1 being prime realestate on the playing field.

[nineisnoone]

Regrowth
Having eternal witness off the list and this on seems quite redundant. Also, what is regrowth really going to do to the environment? The most pernicious thing I can think of is tutor>recall>regrowth>recall which honestly doesn't seem all that broken to me. Drawing 3 cards for 3 mana is basically a thirst for knowledge.

I think two mana for any card in your graveyard is just a little bit too good.  Basically think of it as a variation of Merchant Scroll.  In a predominantly, blue deck the two cards would be fairly equal.  Scroll searching for most relevant cards and Regrowth recurring any relevant card that has been played.  

Consult is far better than both Entomb and Rotate. It's ridiculous.

They are all equally unbroken from a Shop Player's persperspective with Chalice for 1 being prime realestate on the playing field.

Only if you are assuming that Chalice @ 1 is an auto win.

[wiley]

Regrowth
Having eternal witness off the list and this on seems quite redundant. Also, what is regrowth really going to do to the environment? The most pernicious thing I can think of is tutor>recall>regrowth>recall which honestly doesn't seem all that broken to me. Drawing 3 cards for 3 mana is basically a thirst for knowledge.

I would be so happy to run 5 ancestral recall/time walk in every deck.  Seriously, then sex.dec might be good.

Cards that should have the chance to come off in my opinion:
Enlightened Tutor
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Ponder

and the two that everyone will disagree with without thinking:
Fastbond
Trinisphere

Fastbond has one deck that it would fit into and be a good card (turboland).  In any other deck it is a very painful mana accelerant that is fairly useless after turn 1.  Propelling one deck into the playable area, and not even into dominance range, shouldn't get a card restricted.  It might also be interesting to play in green stax lists, but still nothing more scary than your typical waste/strip lock.

3shpere has been debated to death.  The only reason it is there is the unfun factor, results from when it was in its heyday proves this.  I'm in the camp that fun shouldn't have an input on the restricted list.

[Troy_Costisick]

Fact or fiction
I believe this card could be removed from the B/R list without causing a huge warping of the format. Also, it is a very skill intensive card with player interaction, and that is what vintage should be about to me. This should not be a rock paper scissors format where decks simply roll to or over eachother, but where skill can be a large factor in winning.

The problem with this card is that it's a massive time sink.  Like Gifts, it can take a long time to consider all the possible permutations of the top 5 cards of a deck.  Too many Vintage games go to time as it is.  4 FoFs in a deck would just make games last way too long.  Honestly, I don't see how Intuition has stayed off the restricted list for this very reason.
 

[wox2]

I agree with your suggestions for unrestrictions, but I think that the rules with Bargain and Ad Nausean are acceptable the way they are.
Bargain wins immediatelly in every not-ANT-combo -> restriction. Ad Nauseam wins immediatelly too, but you cannot play other Bombs (like Desire or Bargain) in the same deck. If you restrict AN, you kill the deck. ANT by the way is not stronger or faster than other speedstyled combodecks like Hordentendrils or whatever.
Also you cannot play Force of Will in ANT. Pact is no real compensation, because you cannot counter Sphere, Null Rod or Chalice with it. That's why I do not see any problems with unrestricted AN and restricted Bargain....

I agree with your Bargain´s and Nauseam´s ups and downs. When you´re talking about Nauseam not beaing faster - I want to know if anybody will play 4 Bargains in a deck... It won´t be faster. It may use 4 Forces-it will have better disruption. It may use Desire. Is that more broken than Ad Nauseam deck? TPS probably cannot use more than 3 possibly no more than 2. For me it is better to have Bargain unrestricted than Nauseam restricted...
Bargain can be used in Rector decks. I don´t see them being played but there can be good budget Rector deck.

Another thing: what do you think of unrestricting Frantic Search and Crop Rotation? The carddisadvantege they create is a heavy drawback, and they are no Tinkers...

Frantic Search may come from the list but it is risky. Crop Rotation - Strip mine and Tolarian Academy are two good reasons for it´s staying on list. 

[nineisnoone]

and the two that everyone will disagree with without thinking:
Fastbond
Trinisphere

Fastbond has one deck that it would fit into and be a good card (turboland).  In any other deck it is a very painful mana accelerant that is fairly useless after turn 1.  Propelling one deck into the playable area, and not even into dominance range, shouldn't get a card restricted.  It might also be interesting to play in green stax lists, but still nothing more scary than your typical waste/strip lock.

3shpere has been debated to death.  The only reason it is there is the unfun factor, results from when it was in its heyday proves this.  I'm in the camp that fun shouldn't have an input on the restricted list.

Fastbond is interesting.  I could see that coming off. 

12 sphere? That seems pretty crazy.  I wouldn't want this to come off the restricted list, but on the same token I do agree that it is manageable. 

[merfolkOTPT]

Fastbond coming off the list would make all stax players switch to green.  It is that broken.  You can now play wasteland, workshop, crucible first turn.  You can also play workshop workshop and have 6 mana available first turn.  When they find the strip mine you will never have more then one land in play.  There is already some incentive to play green Stax but this would put them over the top, and is just such a bad idea.  Almost as bad as un-restricting channel.

[Qube]

My thoughts about the FoF, Gush and Flash

Fact or Fiction & Gush:

I think if FoF and Gush will be unrestricted, that will allow more different decks, the one will use Mana Drain and Fact to build a controll.dec, and others will play GAT or Gush Empty or Gush Painter (of the bluedecs) They are both broken cards, but isn't magic broken? 
As long Merchant Scroll will be on restrictionlist, and i think it will remain there for very long, Gush isn't overpowered.
That would allow several draw engines, Fact, Gush and TfK, ANT and so on.
And now the most deck just run the same couple card, it's just the "win" that change. the moste blue deck runs simple 4 Drains & Thirst... It would be more interessting to play with more several decks, because not every second game's a mirror.

Flash:

Flash would be also played again, but it will be never as strong as before because of Merchant Scroll. It would be possible to build som decs with that but they will not allways play first or second turn into win. it would be a combo like others. search your pieces and then go broken. also without brainstorm all the time it would be slow down hardly.

Ponder:

As it's a sorcery speed, i think it could be removed from the list, as it mostly don't have a synergy with mana drain on turn 2 and you can't play ponder on EOT like Brainstorm after not have to drain a spell.
But it's strong through. so i'm not so clear about this card if it's should be restricted or not.

Peace
-Qube

(sorry for my inperfect englisch, it isn't my first language)