Tez-Oath: The Evolution of the Obvious

[c dizzle]

The Tez-Oath Primer (part 1 of ?)

When Tezzeret the Seeker was spoiled, the Vintage community was immediately buzzing with the possibilities of combining the card with Time Vault. Several teams and individuals set to work to find the best approach to building the deck. I was no different. I came up with a build that was only a few cards off from Meandeck’s version. Oddly enough, my build included Artifact Mutation, as did the Meandeck version. The major difference between our builds was that I did not run Yawgmoth’s Will. In that build, I was (and still am) sure that Will was not a card than needs to be included. I knew, however, that there had to be a Tez deck that could take full advantage of Will’s raw power. I took my build to a local tournament and not only won the tournament, but didn’t lose a single game. Needless to say, I was encouraged. The only major archetype that I hadn’t tested or played against was Long/TPS. I decided to bring a teammate in to test the match-up.

What I found was shocking. The Long/TPS match-up was terrible. While a lost time and time again in testing, I did gain some important insight into the match-up. First of all, I am convinced that any Tez deck that does not contain a Tormod’s Crypt in the mainboard is built incorrectly. In early testing, I would power out a turn one or turn two Tez, put Time Vault into play and watch helplessly as my opponent went all in and combed-out on their turn. I seemed to have a significantly improved winning percentage when I searched out a Tormod’s Crypt and took away my opponent’s ability to win with Yawgmoth’s Will. Even though it took an extra turn, I was able to win just by cutting of one of their major lines of play. But the match-up was still bad (almost 65%-35%). There was a local invitation-only tourney coming up and I expected at least two Long/TPS decks there and I expected them to be played by two of the better players at the tournament. That type of match-up percentage just wasn’t acceptable to me, especially against players that I expected to see in the Top 8.

I thought about calling the audible and going with Oath since it has a decent Long/TPS match-up. After From the Vault: Dragons was spoiled, I immediately pointed to Hellkite Overlord as a great creature for Oath builds. The problem was that I found Oath too limiting as far as strategic options go. So I was unsure of how I wanted to proceed going into the tournament. Then I saw a list that Rich Shay played at a small tournament. It was a hybrid Tez-Oath deck. I was intrigued. Rich Shay is, in my opinion, one of the ten best Vintage minds on the planet. I decided to analyze his build. Here is what he played:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Saphhire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Walk

1 Hellkite Overlord

2 Gaea’s Blessing
4 Oath of Druids

4 Flooded Strand
3 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

The deck was a fantastic idea, but I found it full of design flaws. This statement is not made to disparage Rich. I just considered his deck a first draft that I planned to polish and publish. First of all, it didn’t run Tormod’s Crypt. As I detailed above, I consider that a major mistake. From Ichorid to Long/TPS, its applications are too good to exclude. I also felt that Rich’s build ran too little disruption. I want at least four (and usually six) Duress effects in the deck. I also felt that the Intuition/AK engine was wrong for the deck. AK was good to generate card advantage after an Oath activation. The problem was, the game was usually well in hand after Oath was active. I needed the card advantage for spots where I didn’t have an active Oath. In those spots, AK was underwhelming. A two-mana cantrip doesn’t get the job done for me.

I also had trouble with the inclusion of Gaea’s Blessing. Perhaps Rich sees a lot of Painter’s Control. In my metagame, I don’t. Blessing also has some anti-synergy with AK. While I don’t like the Intuition/AK engine, I like it even less when I have a card in my deck that removes the AKs I have built up from my graveyard. Even the manabase needed work. I just couldn’t see adding a Library when the deck didn’t have a full set of Forbidden Orchards. Another card that was conspicuously absent was Gifts Ungiven.

I set off, determined to make a great idea into a great deck. I think I succeeded; I know that this is a strong second draft at the very least.  After a ton of testing, the Long/TPS match-up was about 55%-45%. That seemed good enough to me. Having a favorable match-up against the other best deck in the format while not losing ground in my other match-ups seemed great. Here is the list I have together today:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Saphhire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Walk

1 Hellkite Overlord

1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Regrowth

3 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

I will discuss the card selections that I made that may be questioned as well as why certain cards were omitted.

Inclusions

Duress/Thoughtseize – I ran a full set of Thoughtseize as a metagame concern. I expected to see Gob-Lines and other random aggro. Where you would expect less combat damage, you could certainly increase the Duress count and decrease Thoughtseize.

Gifts Ungiven – This card is too good to leave out. A Gifts pile of Yawgmoth’s Will, Regrowth, Voltaic Key and Time Vault is a winner. Several other configurations work, too. In this deck, Gifts is simply much better than Intuition.

Tezzeret the Seeker – Tez players have come to realize that there is too much of a good thing. Running two seemed like the right call, not clogging my hand with too many unplayables.

Krosan Reclamation – Choosing when to shuffle cards back in (as opposed to being forced to by Gaea’s Blessing) is a boon to this deck, which often plays like the old Gifts-Oath decks. You Oath your library into your graveyard, shuffle in Yawgmoth’s Will and go nuts.

Cunning Wish – This is a pet card that adds a lot of flexibility. It got me Extirpate to neuter Long/TPS in game one. That alone justifies its inclusion in my opinion.

Exclusions

Mana Crypt – Dying to Crypt while taking infinite turns is humiliating. More important than that is the fact that the deck has other cheap routes to victory. The extra mana to power out Tez just isn’t as important in this deck.

Mana Vault – See above

Tinker – Tinker is a great card, but without an alternate target (DSC, etc.), it just seemed underwhelming to keep it in to look for Time Vault or Voltaic Key.

Academy Ruins – With Will and Regrowth in the deck, this seemed unnecessary.

Tolarian Academy – This card was excluded to add better color stability to the manabase.

For the tournament I ran a slightly different configuration, trying to throw a curve at my teammates who knew the deck intimately. I made the following changes:

-1 Hellkite Overlord
-1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Tidespout Tyrant

In retrospect, it was a mistake. While Tyrant combed well with the Cunning Wish and Krosan Reclamation, going to one creature dug me too deep into my deck a few times. I tried to get sexier than I should have. I hedged and kept Akroma and Hellkite Overlord in my sideboard and I found myself bringing them in for games two and three.

I will detail my sideboard, my tournament experience and my insight into match-ups in subsequent parts of the primer (providing there is interest). Questions are welcomed.

[Negator13]

How bad is the anti-synergy between Forbidden Orchard and Tezz?

[A.-1.]

In a deck with no real card draw, how does it fair in the late game versus other blue-based decks? Was Thirst for Knowledge considered?

With only 22 mana sources, how does the deck fair vs. decks packing some sort of mana denial?

[Relwarbeht]

I'm interested in what your sideboard was/would be had you had Akroma/Hellkite MD.  Basically which decks did you feel deserved space in the sb based on your matchup % obviously, but if you could speak generally about it rather than in reference to your own metagame that would be much appreciated.  Also which cards you would consider the most synergistic and complementary as sb options.  Additionally, There has been a bit of discussion as far as the value of the singleton voltaic key, while you seem to take it is an auto-inclusion, which is completely understandable, could you possibly address your thoughts on the issue.

[c dizzle]

How bad is the anti-synergy between Forbidden Orchard and Tezz?

Fantastic question. It was not very pronounced during my testing, but remember that Tez is not my primary win condition. With so many ways to win, the effect of having Tez killed by Orchard tokens was minimal.

In a deck with no real card draw, how does it fair in the late game versus other blue-based decks? Was Thirst for Knowledge considered?

With only 22 mana sources, how does the deck fair vs. decks packing some sort of mana denial?

TFK was considered, but ultimately didn't make the cut. I sacrificed draw for disruption. It was a conscious choice. It has paid off, but I certainly don't have a grip full of cards at the end of the game. I may draw fewer cards, but I am able to neuter their hand with Duress effects. The trade has made my blue match-ups good. Mana denial is rough, but you play around it by breaking fetches only when you need to and by using Oath. Does Null Rod hurt? Yes. You have to trust (hope?) that you can counter it.

Additionally, There has been a bit of discussion as far as the value of the singleton voltaic key, while you seem to take it is an auto-inclusion, which is completely understandable, could you possibly address your thoughts on the issue.

The prevailence of Pithing Needle in sideboards makes it an auto-include in my book. Also, the ability to go Lotus, Key, Time Vault, GG is too good to pass up. To steal a page from Menedian's book, you always want to provide additional lines of play. You can use Key and Sol Ring to generate extra mana. While not as easy as Sol Ring/Mana Vault/Mana Crypt in more traditional Tez builds, the flexibility of the Oath win compensates, IMO.

[kicker52]

Maybe I can't count but I'm at 59 cards.  MWS says so too.  Singleton Impulse has been working well though.

[Negator13]

How bad is the anti-synergy between Forbidden Orchard and Tezz?

Fantastic question. It was not very pronounced during my testing, but remember that Tez is not my primary win condition. With so many ways to win, the effect of having Tez killed by Orchard tokens was minimal.

Well then it that case, why run Tez at all, and not just Key + Vault + Tutor package? The 3UU seems hard to come by, and by the time you do get it together it would seem likely that they have a few Spirit tokens which would could kill him before you could get your second turn with him in play.

[arctic79]

Speaking of the obvious, I'm curious why you would die to Mana Crypt?  You should have enough Jewelery available to swing for alot once TEZ is online, and if in a case of not having the luxury of that time table bouncing your own crypt is always acceptable.  Yet another reason is if you did include Tinker it should be your first target. 

I appreciate what you are doing here but a proper TEZ deck has more than one kill, and this deck looks like it is trying to be too much and weakening its primary goal by adding a secondary unrelated goal.

You are right about gifts, it is too good not to include with TEZ, but my experience says i can always do a gifts for tinker, timewalk, recoup, burning wish for an alternate win among various other gifts piles.

Either way I hope you make it work.

[c dizzle]

Maybe I can't count but I'm at 59 cards.  MWS says so too.  Singleton Impulse has been working well though.

1 Tormod's Crypt. Sorry.

Well then it that case, why run Tez at all, and not just Key + Vault + Tutor package? The 3UU seems hard to come by, and by the time you do get it together it would seem likely that they have a few Spirit tokens which would could kill him before you could get your second turn with him in play.

Remember that this is a Mana Drain deck. You can still get the big guy out. Just because it isn't the primary kill, doesn't mean it doesn't justify two slots.

I appreciate what you are doing here but a proper TEZ deck has more than one kill, and this deck looks like it is trying to be too much and weakening its primary goal by adding a secondary unrelated goal.

All I can tell you is to try it. Test it and see. If you don't like it after you test it, then don't play it. Instead of trying to do to much, it gives you alternative ways to win. Some decks can answer Oath. Some decks can answer Tez. Very few can do both.

[arctic79]

Instead of trying to do to much, it gives you alternative ways to win. Some decks can answer Oath. Some decks can answer Tez. Very few can do both.

But that can be said about any deck.  Every deck has weaknesses against certain decks, instead of diluting a deck why not make your protection/disruption suite stronger. 

 I'ld be more inclined to believe in this deck more if it had a full workable transformational SB from Tez to Oath or vica versa.

[Nehptis]

On the positive, I love the idea and I look forward to future iterations of the deck.  But,......

Remember that this is a Mana Drain deck. You can still get the big guy out. Just because it isn't the primary kill, doesn't mean it doesn't justify two slots.

If this IS a "Drain" deck then shouldn’t there be 4 Drains?

I agree with some of the above critiques.  The deck has too many competing resources and plans.  I think a transformational SB approach into Oath would be more effective.  For one thing it would lessen the dependence on MD non-basics lands during Game 1.  This deck seems like it would have trouble against any non-basic hate.  Even TPS is using upwards of 4 basics plus more in the board.

Lastly, both Control Oath and Control Tez decks want to have cards in hand.  The lack of a draw engine is painfully obvious.

[beder]

Hi all,

First, sorry for my English, not my native language

I am working on a comparable approach since a few weeks, with a main difference: I don't use Tezzeret. Indeed, I have the feeling that the "Key/Vault" combo is powerful enough by itself, not requiring the addition of Tezzeret (especially cause I feel like the Tezzeret and spirit tokens are really too un-synergic).

So the main idea is: “adding efficiently the “Key/Vault” combo in the oath build”. It proposes a main benefit: allowing you to use two different tactical approaches, depending on the context. When the oath win condition is very resistant but slow, the key/vault is very fragile but fast.

Surely, it means that one has to be able to regularly and consistently get the two pieces of the combo :
-   oath forbidden
-   key vault

To address this point, especially for the key/vault combo, I decided to try an original configuration: 3 voltaic Key and 1 time Vault. That allows me to focus regularly on getting Timevault to win the game.

When it comes to the Oath/Forbidden combo, this is the classical 4 Oath/4 Forbiddens.

Given that voltaic key can really be a dead draw, when not being able to access Timevault, I use 3 Senseis: Voltaic/Sensei is my alternative draw engine. Sensei is also a very nice card to prevent me from drawing my creatures.

In order all those artefacts not to be useless when multiples, I use 4 Thirst for knowledge. It also means that the build has 4 Mana drain (drain mana is also frequently used to activate the voltaic/sensei draw engine).

To add consistency, the tutor suite is made of 4 cards that can find the most important – or less frequent – part of the combo: 1 Vampiric tutor, 1 Demonic tutor and 2 Muddle the mixture.
With Voltaic key on board, Muddle the mixture is even better than Tezzeret. For 5 manas, you can search for Timevault and play it.
Without Voltaic key on board, muddle the mixture can search for the other combo key card – oath – or be used as a control card.

To sum up, here is the list I use right now and that is really promising when it comes to testing.
-   I won’t detail the match up, more tests have to be done in order to be representative
-   No side board, still have to work on it

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Lands (16)
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    1 Tolarian Academy
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea   
    1 Island
   
// Creatures
    1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
    1 Hellkite Overlord

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    1 Time Vault
    3 Voltaic Key
    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Krosan Reclamation

    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
    2 Muddle the Mixture
    2 Misdirection

    4 Thirst for Knowledge

    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Echoing Truth
   
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
   
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Using this build, I can play different role:
-   Plan A/Early game: combo role; oath or key/vault combo is the objective, fow/misdirection are used to force the combo.  Drain mana can be used in order to deliver a “muddle/play vault/activate key” in a same turn.
If plan A fails, then move to plan B
-   Mid/Late game: control role; 10 hard counters+2 misdirection , combined with two draw engines – thirst and key/sensei -  in order to succeed in putting on board the win condition.

Some questions I still have:
-   the Mana base : number of lands, configuration, this may not be optimal right now,
-   Echoing truth in main : is this really useful? Not so sure…
-   Mystical tutor : do I need it. Right now, I don’t use it but accessing Timewalk can be really interesting…
-   Yawmgoth Will: not in the build right now, that’s a shame…
-   Regrowth : would be added after Yawgmoth, but this is perhaps a contender (if time vault is discarded)

I will keep you inform of my testing results.

Bye

[kicker52]

@ beder:

That is an interesting idea, it came to my mind initially too.  I don't want to dismiss it completely without testing but it raises a question:  why play two more voltaic key instead of the two Tezzeret?  Yes Key is easier to cast and can combo well with SDT, but it detracts from your ability to win.  Tezzeret wins by being both a combo piece and the tutor for your second piece.  Key by itself is useless, Tezzeret is a win.  Based on this, I don't see how replacing two Tezzeret with two Keys is logical.

That being said, I like differences in the rest of the list.  In testing c-dizzle's list I ran into problems with card disadvantage.  The threat density is high, but if their answers are coming faster due to an efficient draw engine then it doesn't matter.  The proactive nature of 6 duress effects is nice, but the lack of draw was causing me problems.  That being said, I'll be testing a combination of the two lists.

[Zieby]

Hi All,

I have already played this deck in 2 tournaments (12th in a 50 man tournament and 4th in a 21 man Tournament).
In The first tournament I missed top 8 due to a bad Mulligan decision (we learn every tournament something)
I played the following list at the tournaments:

Timeless Oath

Maindeck
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1   Darksteel Colossus
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Echoing Truth (2nd tournament this was a Wipe Away)
1   Eternal Witness
1   Fact or Fiction
4   Force of Will
1   Gaea's Blessing
1   Mystical Tutor (2nd tournament this was a Gifts Ungiven)
3   Impulse
3   Mana Drain
1   Merchant Scroll
2   Duress (2nd tournament this where Negates)
4   Oath of Druids
1   Ponder
1   Tezzeret the Seeker
2   Thirst for Knowledge
1   Time Vault
1   Time Walk
1   Tinker
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Voltaic Key
1   Yawgmoth's Will
   
1   Black Lotus
3   Flooded Strand
3   Forbidden Orchard
3   Island
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Pearl
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
3   Polluted Delta
1   Sol Ring
2   Tropical Island
2   Underground Sea

Sideboard   
1   Darkblast (A Must have)
1   Echoing Truth
1   Pithing Needle
2   Empyrial Archangel (A Must have)
2   Extirpate
2   Tormod's Crypt
3   Duress
3   Oxidize

First: I know what you all will be thinking, DSC and Witness in a Oath build. What the Hack. I can only say this, I lost only 1 game in a Hundred games because of DSC and Witness, but I think I won about 20 games pure on the back of Tinker DSC or Witness (Timevault or Key with one is missing). I really believe in this strategies but there is something missing.

A Few things became very clear to me, The Match-up against Control and Tezz Control in particular are very hard. Even after sideboarding this match-up is hard to win. The biggest problem is that this list doesn't have a real Draw engine. You have filtering in your deck but not a real draw Engine. This way you lose control over the board and they will out counter you if the game goes to long.

To solve the above issue I placed red in the Sideboard for REB's, Ancient Grudge's and a Rack and Ruin. This way you can board into a Super control deck with allot of ways to deal with Artifact's and Blue cards(Opposing counterspells). The Second thing I change is the Draw engine in the maindeck. I Played the last 25 games withthe following configuration:

4   Accumulated Knowledge
2   Thirst for Knowledge
2   Intuition

This played very well, you still keep the possibility to discard DSC from hand with a TFK but you have a real draw engine due to AK Intuition. Intuition can also function as a Tutor for Different very strong piles as you all know. This gives you the opportunity to Intuition game 2 to 2 Grugde's and a 3th card and you will have 2 answers in you grave yard for an early attempt on going infinite with Time Vault.

So I will Now present you my updated list:

Timeless Oath

Maindeck   
4   Accumulated Knowledge
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
2   Thirst for Knowledge
   
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Drain
2   Thoughtseize
1   Wipe Away
   
4   Oath of Druids
1   Darksteel Colossus
1   Eternal Witness
1   Gaea's Blessing
   
1   Tezzeret the Seeker
1   Time Vault
1   Voltaic Key
   
1   Time Walk
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Tinker
2   Intuition
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
   
3   Flooded Strand
3   Forbidden Orchard
2   Island
2   Polluted Delta
2   Tropical Island
2   Underground Sea
2   Volcanic Island
1   Black Lotus
1   Lotus Petal
1   Mana Crypt
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Jet
1   Mox Ruby
1   Mox Sapphire
1   Sol Ring

The only question I have for myself is: Can I cut 1 land for an extra spell and what spell would that be, I will probably play Cunning Wish because of the flexibility it provides with the Side Board I already have. Here is my Current SB.

Sideboard   
2   Ancient Grudge
1   Darkblast
1   Echoing Truth
2   Empyrial Archangel
2   Extirpate
1   Oxidize
2   Pyroblast
1   Rack and Ruin
1   Red Elemental Blast
2   Tormod's Crypt

This where my thoughts, feel free to discuss or make any constructive comment.

Thanks for reading and greetz from Holland

Arjan

[refellos]

"Cunning Wish – This is a pet card that adds a lot of flexibility. It got me Extirpate to neuter Long/TPS in game one. That alone justifies its inclusion in my opinion."

Yeah you might have won the first game. But as I recall I won games two and three. Thats what you get for playtesting this matchup with me for hours on end. But Scrubby Bubbles did represent 4 players in top 8.

[Qube]

Tezzeret wins by being both a combo piece and the tutor for your second piece.  Key by itself is useless, Tezzeret is a win.  Based on this, I don't see how replacing two Tezzeret with two Keys is logical.

Tezz isn't an automatic win, if you can resolve it. Then it's like an better Oath, on the next turn goes broken and win. But by my testing against Tezz, i never lost because the Tezz himself. if you play well, it's possible to "destroy" Tezz in a single turn. And in a deck like this, i think the way beder is going it's the most direct way to win!

About Beders-List:
I played against the deck before a couple days and it's very strong. with voltaic key you can make some insane playes every turn. make multiple mana, every topdeck can make you win and most importent the drawengine with sensei's.  for , draw a additional card.

The disruption is also well, and i really like the Misdirection #2. the muddle works also well. imo it's a perfect card for an oath deck. but in this deck it's a house! It can find:
Oath, Echoing Truth, Time Vault, Demonic Tutor, Time Walk, (mana drain), and sometimes also the krosan reclamation.

I would like to add Ywill and Regrowth, but what to cut... i test this out if i find time in the next days.

Peace
-Qube

[Nehptis]

@ Beder's list.

Why would you run an artifact combo deck without Tinker?  IMO, add DSC + Tinker and remove Akroma or Dragon.  Tinker can then be used for Vault / Key or DSC.

Also, why run Krosan over Blessing and not include Yawgwill?  For me it's Krosan+Will or GB.

I do like that you gave the deck a draw enginge.  It's critical to Oath or Vault Combo to include one.  However, I wish there was room for 3-4 Duress effects.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Has anyone looked into Sharuum the Hegemon?

3WUB, artifact creature, 5/5 flying, when ~ CITP return an artifact from graveyard to play.

It pitches to FoW, beats for plenty (but not enough to be a real clock), and puts combo pieces/answers into play.  Oh, and two of these + anything that cares about them moving in or out of play is an insta-win.

Ie.  You could randomly maindeck a Blasting Station to hose the mirror, or a Grinding Station (which counters topdeck tutors).  Either one lets you immediately kill if you know you're going to Oath up a Sharuum.

This kill is just as fast as two Hellkites, and can actually do something relevant the moment it's in play.  Also, Tinker -> Sharuum lets you recover destroyed combo pieces.

[The Atog Lord]

Either one lets you immediately kill if you know you're going to Oath up a Sharuum.

How does this work?

[Harlequin]

It works on the 2nd oath if you have a 2nd Sphinx.  And the 1st one hit your Station. 

It would probably be better to run 1 Bridge from Below and possibly 1 alter of dementia because then you have to hit your key peice(s) by the end of the 2nd oath rather than the first.   Because I think you can use 2 Sphinxes to go infinte because of how 'quickly' the Legend Killl occurs.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Altar of Dementia seems pretty useless and Bridge is the definition of useless when it's in your hand.  I'm usually unhappy to get stuck with a Gaea's Blessing or fatty in hand.

Doing a quick search on Starcity, that does seem to be a minimal combo, though.  You either use the first Sharuum to finish assembling your Vault-Key combo, return a toolbox artifact to play (I've been testing Crucible, Null Rod, Tormod's Crypt, etc), or you have to run two completely dead cards to kill on your second Oath.  And that second-Oath kill is anything but guaranteed.  Frankly, it might be better to just run Mindslavers since that's likely a hard lock and not completely dead since you have Drains.

[SiegeX]

For the Blasting/Grinding Station you would do the following if you have Sharuum#1 + *Station on the board and Sharuum#2 in the library and your oath will trigger

1) Oath Triggers, tutoring up Sharuum#2 into play
2) Sharuum#2 CIP trigger goes off but does not yet get put on the stack as there is a state-based effect to take care of first, namely the Legends rule
3) Legends rule causes both Sharuum's to go to the GY, all SBE's have been resolved and now the Sharuum#2 CIP trigger goes on the stack
4) Sharuum#2 CIP resolves, bringing back Sharuum#2
5) Sharuum#2 and *Station CIP triggers gets put on the stack, order such that *Station goes off first
6) Untap *Station
7) In response to Sharuum#2 CIP, tap *Station sacrificing Sharuum#2
8) *Station effect resolves
9) Go to step 4

It would probably be better to run 1 Bridge from Below and possibly 1 alter of dementia because then you have to hit your key peice(s) by the end of the 2nd oath rather than the first.   Because I think you can use 2 Sphinxes to go infinte because of how 'quickly' the Legend Killl occurs.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, can you explain a bit more?

Blasting station looks like the better option to me because it kills *now*, even if they had a Platinum Angel out.  Although both grinding station and to a better extent Alter of Dementia allow you to mill yourself in the situation where you have 1 of 2 combo pieces on the board and you can then use the last Sharuum trigger to bring that into play and win with infi turns.  However, I have a feeling that the number of wins you'll get from that play will be outnumbered by the number of losses you'll receive because you passed the turn and your opp found a way to put a card back in their library and Yawgwill for the win.

[beder]

@ beder:

That is an interesting idea, it came to my mind initially too.  I don't want to dismiss it completely without testing but it raises a question:  why play two more voltaic key instead of the two Tezzeret?  Yes Key is easier to cast and can combo well with SDT, but it detracts from your ability to win.  Tezzeret wins by being both a combo piece and the tutor for your second piece.  Key by itself is useless, Tezzeret is a win.  Based on this, I don't see how replacing two Tezzeret with two Keys is logical.

That being said, I like differences in the rest of the list.  In testing c-dizzle's list I ran into problems with card disadvantage.  The threat density is high, but if their answers are coming faster due to an efficient draw engine then it doesn't matter.  The proactive nature of 6 duress effects is nice, but the lack of draw was causing me problems.  That being said, I'll be testing a combination of the two lists.

Sure, Tezzeret wins the game by itself, but it is really slow and expensive. Even if 5 mana is accessible - especially with drain - it is stil 5 mana. I tried with Tezzeret and finally realised that it was a "too linear/fragile" approach in that build. I don't say that it is not a very good win condition, but perhaps in a more "control build".
Playing 3 voltaic key, I often have one in early game. If so, I just play it. It is rarely countered (and if it is, I don't care). Then, I have 4 cards that say "win the game" (2 tutors and 2 muddle) plus the senseis in order to find the other piece of combo. Voltaic instead of Tezzeret allows me to put oppponent under pressure from turn one. Regularly playing voltaic on turn one is a serious threat that will oblige opponent to change or adapt his tactic : if he lets me cast one tutor, this is gg (with the other usable win conditions - thinker/colossus, tezzeret, ... - opponent still has one or two turn and so can sometimes just ignore the threat, dealing with it after being on board or just winning in the spot)

@ Beder's list.

Why would you run an artifact combo deck without Tinker?  IMO, add DSC + Tinker and remove Akroma or Dragon.  Tinker can then be used for Vault / Key or DSC.

Also, why run Krosan over Blessing and not include Yawgwill?  For me it's Krosan+Will or GB.

I do like that you gave the deck a draw enginge.  It's critical to Oath or Vault Combo to include one.  However, I wish there was room for 3-4 Duress effects.

Adding Tinker - and so DSC - could be an interesting idea, it fits well in the combo role I want to play in early game. I definitely have to try that (especially with thirst).

Then, when it comes to krosan, you are right, this is perhaps not the best configuration. What i like about krosan is that it can be used :
- to put back in library a creature discarded to thirst before oathing,
- to shuffle opponent's library to "counter" a top deck tutor.

Surely, there is something to think over when it comes to
- Creature package
  Use tinker/colossus or the regular creature package
- 2 cards : echoing truth and krosan
  Potential cards : tinker (in case of modification of the creature package), mystical tutor?...,  yawmgoth, gaea's blessing (but I don't know if the shuffle effect is really necessary main deck)

[Qube]

I made some "brainstorming" about the inclusion of Sharuum. But i thought, it's wasted place to make a infinite combo with Station. and i want to include Ywill in this deck, because uhm have i to explain why?  It's a Comboversion, which resolves Oath, to go into Combo on the same turn. or just lay down vault & key.

Combo Oath

//Lands
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island

//Creatures
1 Sharuum the Hegemon
1 Eternal Witness

//Spells
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge

1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Wipe Away

4 Oath of Druids
1 Krosan Reclamation

//Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
3 Oxidize
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phithing Needle
2 Empyrial Archangel
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall


Thoughts about my choices:

Sharuum and Witness as Creatures
With 3 Keys, which will come earlier in the match, and you can trigger Oath the possibility is very high to win in the same turn with just returning Vault with Sharuum or Witness or also over a lethal Ywill. It's also possible to get timewalk into grave, witness CITP, cast walk get the Sharuum and return Vault to hand.
In the first game of the match the Vault-Combo is mostly the most directive way to win. And both creatures are playable from hand.

Tinker:
I run Tinker, but not DSC. With Tinker you find in this deck: Sharuum and get at the same time a card back on hand, Time Vault if i've Voltaic, and then totaly cost for infinite combo is  .

Wipe Away:
I think it could also be the Echoing Truth, but i really like Splitsecond. It won me several games in which i would have lost to the counterwar.

Yagwmoth's Will:
 

Library of Alexandria:
I just love this card, it win ramdom games, and with top&key you can be easy on 7 cards. but is the manabase good enought to run noncolor land? i think it's possible to run library.

Card's i maybe would like to play, but don't now what to cut:
Gifts Ungiven
Merchant Scroll
Mystical Tutor

Sideboard:
I'm not sure about the Sideboard jet. but i think the most critical matchups are included. What would you change on the SB? and what is missing?


I hope it's a step in the right direction of this deck and it works very well for me. Please let me know what you think and what could be changed.

Peace
-Qube

[Harlequin]

For the Blasting/Grinding Station you would do the following if you have Sharuum#1 + *Station on the board and Sharuum#2 in the library and your oath will trigger

It would probably be better to run 1 Bridge from Below and possibly 1 alter of dementia because then you have to hit your key peice(s) by the end of the 2nd oath rather than the first.   Because I think you can use 2 Sphinxes to go infinte because of how 'quickly' the Legend Killl occurs.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, can you explain a bit more?

Blasting station looks like the better option to me because it kills *now*, even if they had a Platinum Angel out.  Although both grinding station and to a better extent Alter of Dementia allow you to mill yourself in the situation where you have 1 of 2 combo pieces on the board and you can then use the last Sharuum trigger to bring that into play and win with infi turns.  However, I have a feeling that the number of wins you'll get from that play will be outnumbered by the number of losses you'll receive because you passed the turn and your opp found a way to put a card back in their library and Yawgwill for the win.

Blasting Station only kills -if- it is in your hand or above the 1st Sphinx.  Meanin you have 2/3's chance that you will fizzle.  Your precondition: "Sharuum#1 + *Station on the board" only happens 1/3 of the time.  Even with 2 stations your combo chance is still only 50%.  3 gives you a 3/5 chance of comboing which is stil only a 60% chance.

On the contrary.  With the Zombie win, you flip the chances because the bridge only has to be above the 2nd Sphinx to get infinite zombies.  Infinite Zombies don't win the game right away but with a single bridge you've already out fizzle the 3-station configuration above.  If you add in the alter you have: 50% of the time is infinte mill by zombies,  1/6 of the time you get only infinite zombies only, 1/12 of the time you get infinite mill without zombies, and and 1/4 of the time you fizzle. 


I'm not even saying that these are worth it.  I'm just saying that if you are dead-set on Sharuum - I don't think alter's are your best wins because you _have_ to hit it before the first creature.

[SiegeX]

I see what you're saying now.  Here is how I see the various kills

Blasting Station
Pros

• Kills Now
• Takes out creatures that would prevent you from winning now (Platinum Angel etc)
• Hard castable in a pinch

Cons

• Must be recurred by first oath activation
• Costs 3 to cast, is not tutorable from Muddle the Mixture

Grinding Station
Pros

• You have the option to mill your opponent or yourself in attempt to put out the vault combo.  If you're lucky you can do both
• Easier hard castable
• Can be tutored up by Muddle the Mixture

Cons

• Must be recurred by first oath activation
• Must pass the turn to win
• Rolls to Gaea's Blessing
• Sucks in the mirror with Krosan Reclamation and Yawgwill

Alter of Dementia
Pros

• See Grinding Station
• No untap trigger to worry about, makes for less mistakes esp. if your opp is being a dick about the loop

Cons

• See Grinding Station

I should mention that if you whiff on flipping a *station/alter on the first activation but get it on the 2nd and Krosan Reclamation is in your yard, you can sac a Sharuum on your opp EOT step, flash back krosan to put back Sharuum and start the loop on your next upkeep.

Infinite Zombies don't win the game right away but with a single bridge you've already out fizzle the 3-station configuration above.  If you add in the alter you have: 50% of the time is infinte mill by zombies

I might be missing something, but I'm fairly sure that Bridge from Below on its own does not make infi zombies with 2x Sharuum. 

Edit: I was wrong, it works, read below

[Harlequin]

I'm like 90% sure this is how it work.

S1 is in play
- Oath Begins to Resolve:
**loop**
S2 comes into play, Bridge and Alter are put into the GY
- Statebase is checked
-- Legend rule applies; S2's Trigger's target now needs to be declared  * this is the only thing I'm not 100% on.  But I think the Legend rule will allow the S2 trigger to target either of the Legends.
-- S2's ability targets S1, the ability is put on the stack
-- Zombie Triggers are put on the stack
- Zombie x2 resolves
- S2's trigger resovles, putting S1 into play
S1 triggers, targeting S2.
S2 comes into play.  Goto **loop**
x1,000,000 zombies
Now instead of targeting S2, you target Alter.
Loop ends with Alter, S1, and 1,000,000 zombies in play.


Alter is not the same as Grinding station becase it doesn't require you hit your artifact peice on the first Oath, you can hit it just fine on the 2nd.  AND should you hit Alter on Oath #1, you do NOT even need bridge at all!

[SiegeX]

You're absolutely right, it does work as presented.  For some reason I brainfarted and failed to realize that when Sharuum#1 brings back Sharuum#2 that sets up another CIP trigger.

-- Legend rule applies; S2's Trigger's target now needs to be declared  * this is the only thing I'm not 100% on.  But I think the Legend rule will allow the S2 trigger to target either of the Legends.

Yes, this is correct.  When the 2nd sharuum comes into play, its CIP trigger goes off but essentially is put in a waiting area/limbo if you will until SBE's have done their duty.  Now since the legends rule triggers the bridge from below *that you control*, you actually get a choice as to which trigger to put on the stack first.  So you could put the bridge trigger on the stack, then put sharuum's CIP on the stack choosing targets or vice versa.

Also, you're percentage figures are spot on too.  I'll paste the permutations here as I think its useful information:

a = Alter of Dementia
b = Bridge from Below
s1 = Sharuum #1
s2 = Sharuum #2

1)   a b s1 s2  infi mill zombie
2)   a b s2 s1  infi mill zombie
3)   a s1 b s2  infi mill zombie
4)   a s1 s2 b  infi mill sharuum
5)   a s2 b s1  infi mill zombie
6)   a s2 s1 b  infi mill sharuum
7)   b a s1 s2  infi mill zombie
8)   b a s2 s1  infi mill zombie
9)   b s1 a s2  infi mill zombie
10) b s1 s2 a  infi zombie
11) b s2 a s1  infi mill zombie
12) b s2 s1 a  infi zombie
13) s1 a b s2  infi mill zombie
14) s1 a s2 b  fizz
15) s1 b a s2  infi mill zombie
16) s1 b s2 a  infi zombie
17) s1 s2 a b  fizz
18) s1 s2 b a  fizz
19) s2 a b s1  infi mill zombie
20) s2 a s1 b  fizz
21) s2 b a s1  infi mill zombie
22) s2 b s1 a  infi zombie
23) s2 s1 a b  fizz
24) s2 s1 b a  fizz


12/24 (50%) = infi mill zombie
2/24 (8.3%) = infi mill sharuum
4/24 (16.7%) = infi zombies
6/24 (25%) = fizz

This means that 58.3% (14/24) of the time we win on our opp's next draw step.  16.7% (4/24) of the time we win on our next attack phase and 25% (12/24) of the time we fizzle out on the combo.  However, we should remember that we still have the vault-key kill which can turn that 25% fizzle rate into a win-now situation, it can also do the same for the other 75%.   

Bridge and alter are nice because neither of them require us to recur them on the first activation, allowing us to recur either vault or key instead.  On the first activation I would always take vault/key if I flip one or both (12/24) times.  All I have given up to do this are cases 4 and 6 where I could have done an infi mill with sharuum.  This lowers our 58.3% win on opp draw step to 50% but we turn 67% of those 50% into a win-now situation.  If I whiff on finding the second vault/key piece, I still have a decent chance of flipping at least bridge or alter or both and if you run more than one key, these percentages go up a tad bit in your favor.

BTW, there are 720 permutations when you factor in key and vault, and thats only with one key.   I'll see if i can reduce this to a manageable number by removing the cases where we know it fizzles.

[Troy_Costisick]

Wow!  Complicated.  Nice work, though!

Got a question:  Would adding Lim-Dul's Vault to help stack your deck be worth the trouble?

Peace,

-Troy

[SiegeX]

Ok, I generated all 720 permutations and imported it to excell and tallied up the various possible outcomes.  It only took me about 20mins as there were alot of patterns that allowed me to not have to look at each case. Note that I'm reluctant to say there are zero errors in this list but I'm fairly confident that my errors are few and far between.

I calculated two scenarios, both of which assume that Sharuum#1 and Sharuum#2 are in your library and that alter,key,vault,bridge are in the library or graveyard:

Scenario 1) Always Pull Alter of Dementia if you flip it on the first oath activation
Scenario 2) Always pull either key or vault on the first oath activation

Scenario 1 -- Alter of Dementia
Win Now = 120/720 = 16.7%
Infi Mill = 360/720 = 50.0%
Infi Zombie = 88/720 = 12.2%
Fizz = 152/720 = 21.1%

Scenario 2 -- Vault/Key
Win Now = 239/720 = 33.2%
Infi Mill = 225/720 = 31.2%
Infi Zombie = 88/720 = 12.2%
Fizz = 168/720 = 23.3%

From the numbers, I think Scenario 1 of pulling Alter should be the default play as the chances of our opp being able to put a card back in his library during his upkeep *and win* is fairly slim and it has the lowest fizz percentage while maintaining the same infi zombie percentage; it actually reduces our fizz percentage by 2.2% and throws that onto our win percentage by next upkeep.  If we are playing the mirror (or any deck that runs blessings/krosan) then we could switch to pulling vault/key first as that combo does not care about those cards. Also, don't forget that the times we fizz out, we can still beat face with two 5/5 flyers.

If anybody wants the excell file, I'd be happy to share it.