WGB aggro

[nineisnoone]

Knight of the Reliquary
 
Creature - Human Knight
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains:
Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Thoughts?

It would put me in which I stated as not wanting for my other creature, but it seems like an easy 5/5.  One fetchland naturally, and then sacrifice a Forest/Plains for another Fetchland, which sac to get another land.  Or the obvious Waste/Strip search as well.  It'll eventually grow to much bigger proportions.

Tenative modifications:

1   Strip Mine     
3   Wasteland     

1   Badlands     
3   Scrubland     
3   Bayou     
3   Polluted Delta   
3   Bloodstained Mire

4   Dark Confidant
4   Tarmogoyf   
4   Knight of the Reliquary

1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Emerald
1   Mox Ruby
1   Black Lotus   

1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Raven's Crime
1   Life from the Loam   

4   Null Rod
4   Duress   
4   Thoughtseize
4   Diabolic Edict
3   Hide/Seek   
3   Shadow of Doubt

Also made some assorted changes to my BWU list.

[Guli]

Definitely worth a test. Nice find. I can see many applications. Especially because he can find ANY land (strip mine)

[Miaou]

Knight of the Reliquary:

I am currently looking for 2-3 creatures in my SB against aggro decks in my current list. I think this guy might be the thing I am looking for. Not because of his ability (the fact that it is tap to activate kind of makes it useless VS aggro decks), but because he can get big pretty fast for cheap. I am not looking to play him main, because I don't feel he really helps against the match ups that I want to win against (combo/control).
So for now I shall try him out, but there is probably some better option against aggro that I didn't think of.

[BruiZar]

There are some nice tricks with knight on defense. Assign blockers, Fetch for forest, sack forest put maze of ith into play, remove another creature from combat and let the knight get +2/+2.

[nineisnoone]

Knight of the Reliquary:

I am currently looking for 2-3 creatures in my SB against aggro decks in my current list. I think this guy might be the thing I am looking for. Not because of his ability (the fact that it is tap to activate kind of makes it useless VS aggro decks), but because he can get big pretty fast for cheap. I am not looking to play him main, because I don't feel he really helps against the match ups that I want to win against (combo/control).
So for now I shall try him out, but there is probably some better option against aggro that I didn't think of.

I actually think he would be best at his best against Aggro.  He has potential to beat a Tarmogoyf.  Especially if you run janky anti-aggro cards like Desert or Ith like Bruizar suggests.

He doesn't help to much in Combo/Control though, so I'm not sure about him at all.  If he had haste, I'd be all over this, but 3 mana and passing the turn can be a bit slow.  That being said, he reminds me a lot Trygon Predator.  Except he hits lands and deals his damage in larger clusters later on rather than in slow increments.

At the moment, I'm pushing him back out of the main deck.  But I'm seriously looking to work Bazaar of Baghdad into the deck.  It's the strongest unrestricted land in terms of raw power.  However, I'm not certain how to mix the cards together.  Dawn of the Dead with Zombie Infestation seems like a possibility.  But I've never had too much success trying Bazaar of Baghdad in non-Ichorid decks.

[SimonCopp]

You could try taking a leaf out of the BUG book and cut an ESG for an off colour mox. That runs Null Rods too.

[Miaou]

I agree that it is against aggro that I would use him, however I was just stating that unless I have no lands in my GY, I don't think I would using his ability a lot. I do however like the idea of having a random Maze of Ith in the SB to go along with him, as it can really hurt an offense

SimonCopp:
I initially had off and on color Mox in this deck back when I only used Null Rod. But now that I run 3x Chalice of the Void as well, they usualy get countered or don't do anything on the table. Hence the use of ESG which also boost my creature count!

[Guli]

I feel like there are better things against aggro as far as sideboarding goes. This guy is not a sideboard card but should be a main deck card. It is obvious that strip mine will play a crucial role. Maze of Ith could be in the sideboard and would work well with this guy.

The card is a walking Crop rotation. Right now I am trying a mana denial strategy with him.Cards that are being used are:

Life from The Loam
Strip/Bazaar/Ghost Q/Terramorphic expanse/... Karakas/Maze/Flagstones of Trokair .... all options
Aven Mindcensor (intuition, fetching)
Null Rod
Tarms/Grunts
Canonist/Believer (intuition/vault seems to be on the rise)
Lots of basic lands
Only 2 colors and I don't think you need more colors

The knight can get big really big.

[EDIT] I am secretly wondering how he would play out in my first versions of Mr. Gaddock were I ran Sylvan Safekeeper. I know how effective Keeper can be against spot removal already. With the ability to sac your lands the knight becomes a very nice finisher. Especially those last points of damage that need to be dealt. You can declare attackers and then ask whether there are blockers or not. If they block they lose a creature. If no blockers are declared and they have low life points then you can sac lands after declare block step. It seems to me that the knight will be the next best thing after tarm when it comes to 2-3 cc clocks. Tarm though is just a big fat dude, Knight is more than that.

[nineisnoone]

The card is a walking Crop rotation.

Not quite.  It has to be a forest or plains.  I would also be declaring this card the nut-high if you could sacrifice a Flagstone to it's ability. But sadly that is not possible.

[Guli]

It acts as a crop rotation for sure

8 fetches
6 basics
? terramorphic expanse

Flagstone is legendary so it can kill itself. There are tricks. Sylvan safekeeper back in my list. He is amazing with the knight and flagstone.

Let me try to visualize again how serious of a threat knight can be:

You will have 3 lands in grave at the least with this kind of deck AND 3 lands in play. With only basic lands (forest/plains) the mana base will be very stable and less vulnerable to wasteland. Add in loams and bazaar and the grave will fill in no time. You don't need multiple bazaar. You need a toolbox for knight like trinket mage has for artifacts.

He will be 5/5 with ease and most likely be bigger most of the time. I tested some quick lists with safekeeper. The lands in play are damage by means of a shrouded stick. This is not easy to deal with. It has the potential to go 8/8. For me this translates into a less time for the opponent. When the knight hits you have at max 2 turns left if you already pounded 4-5 life away and if they payed life for whatever reasons.

[nineisnoone]

Ahh.  That is true.  I hadn't considered the Legendary aspect.

What sort of toolbox do you foresee?  The threshold lands should be considered.  If it goes UGW, Coliseum + Bazaar + Loam would be fairly impressive later in the game.

[Guli]

No need to disrupt your colors. Green and White are enough. Plenty of resources available from these colors. You want to maximize Knight and the proper mana base should be used.

Toolbox options:

Strip
Wasteland
Bazaar
Riftstone Portal
Flagstones of Trokair
Karakas !
Maze of Ith
Petrified Field !
Terramorphic Expanse
Library of Alexandria
...

My personal list? Not sure yet. But strip is a definite add. So is Bazaar. Also Crop Rotation will be added if you ask me. I would also add a Riftstone, seems worth it. These will all be 1x in my approach. Also I would try to abuse flagstones by playing them in multiples. My gut tells me there is some link between petrified field, terramorphic and flagstones. Might want to consider fastbond. This looks more like GAT to me. These are quick remarks, don't worry I will make a more detailed post when I feel like I have my arguments set and tested enough. Also I would not advise too much toolbox stuff and keep it focussed. You don't want to build the entire deck around the Knight. More important creatures are Canonist, Aven M, True Believer (gaddock teeg). Like I posted before if intuition/combo (the new mini-gifts) sees more and more play Believer is the stronger pick. Also important to point out is that with the next cards all your permanents become durable.

True Believer (you have shroud)
Sylvan Safekeeper (your dudes have shroud)
Life from the Loam (your lands have 'shroud')

Lands fuel the keeper indefinitely, things like pyroclasm will not get rid of your killers Tarm and Knight.

Shroud is card advantage.

Just maybe with the proper cards Armageddon could become a potential candidate. Null Rod will be an auto add with Armageddons. And maybe Thorms of Ath/Riders.

This should be enough material folks. Brainstorm away

Guli

[nineisnoone]

That's not really much of a toolbox thought.  It's mostly just mana aside from a few cards.

If you're just running him mostly for beats, you could also just toss in a Terravore.  He should at least be as big as Knight.  And they definitely get huge together.  Who knows, maybe we can build a Vintage Aggro Loam deck?  I mean... Elves and all.

[the boogie man]

unearth much?

[nineisnoone]

unearth much?

The spell or the ability?

[Guli]

That's not really much of a toolbox thought.  It's mostly just mana aside from a few cards.

If you're just running him mostly for beats, you could also just toss in a Terravore.  He should at least be as big as Knight.  And they definitely get huge together.  Who knows, maybe we can build a Vintage Aggro Loam deck?  I mean... Elves and all.

You are looking at the card to get lands from your deck. He is a KNIGHT he should BEAT. The option of crop rotation is nice and should be used when the situation calls for it. For example if you can cast him early on you could go for a strip/loam lock. If you are facing aggro and you are being pushed into the defensive you can get Maze of Ith. Terravore can die to crypt. The knight is much much better. I don't understand your motive to bring a card like Terravore into the discussion.

A toolbox is not a miracle box. Don't do fancy things. The cards that you want to tutor for could be drawn and then they should be strong as well. Then fact that Knight can get them in fast is a bonus and adds strength to the deck. Loam is an engine and I think it has been used in aggro decks in the past. I don't know if there are any out there right now. Loam is slow don't forget that. But with Tarms/Knights as clock/aggro and Canonist/Believer/Teeg/Aven (you own choice/meta) as anti control/combo you can get dedicate slots for loam and use the bazaar engine to keep going mid game. Maybe bazaar should be x2, with crop rotation it becomes x3 and with Knight you can get it if you really think it is needed. Loam/Bazaar is slow but it is also something that kicks in later on in the game when you are topdeck mode anyway so what better to do then draw cards do loams strip their lands while your knights grows. The real strenght in the T1 scene are still the quality bears like canonist they will keep you alive long enough to make cards like tarm and knight strong.

Like I said the knight is a 5/5 for 3 mana at the least. I think that is a nice clock on its own. If I am missing something please do point it out guys. But if you want to use the colors green and white the knight seems to be a nice clock alongside tarm.

[Guli]

If you're just running him mostly for beats, you could also just toss in a Terravore.

I would rather try out Countryside crusher then.

EDIT:
I opt for either TEMPO, meaning acceleration OR mana denial with null rod. If you don't want to go mana denial then mox diamonds don't seem that bad with loams taking into account that Knight also grows.

[BruiZar]

I would take a chance on Nantuko Monastery. 4/4 First Strike in the right colors definately seems worth it to me. It's like tutoring up a Jotun Grunt for additional Beats. Nantuko Monastery can have a similar role like Mishra's Factories without disrupting your mana base if you use Riftstone Portal.

[Guli]

I appologize for the rawnes but it is a first list. This is a version without Null Rod.

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Windswept Heath
    3  Plains
    3  Forest
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Riftstone Portal
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Maze of Ith
    1  Plateau
    1  Nantuko Monastery
    1  Taiga

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Wild Nacatl
    3  Tin Street Hooligan
    3 Glowrider

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Life from the Loam
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Mox Diamond
   
I picked glowriders and canonist to fight combo. Glowrider also has a nice touch with the strip lock. Hooligan is nice main deck artifact hate.

[Nantuko]

I think the list with gaddock teeg and mindcensor is the better,because Null rod and chalice lock is wonderful for me.

My doubt is if is viable play 4 color for hide/seek(that is one of my favorite cards)

[BruiZar]

I appologize for the rawnes but it is a first list. This is a version without Null Rod.

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Windswept Heath
    3  Plains
    3  Forest
    1  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Riftstone Portal
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Maze of Ith
    1  Plateau
    1  Nantuko Monastery
    1  Taiga

// Creatures
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Wild Nacatl
    3  Tin Street Hooligan
    3 Glowrider

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Life from the Loam
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Mox Diamond
   
I picked glowriders and canonist to fight combo. Glowrider also has a nice touch with the strip lock. Hooligan is nice main deck artifact hate.

Hi Gulli,

I like the direction you're taking the deck. However, I would really try to stick with 2 colors. Wild Nacatl doesn't win you that much time considering the fact that it doesn't stop combo from going off, even if its a 3/3 for  . The reason why I don't really like Nacatl is because it requires you to have lands in play and thus is anti synergistic with Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond makes all the colors but that is not going to boot the strength of Nacatl. In my opinion, he's a glorified Kird Ape, nothing more nothing less.

I'm not that fond of Tinstreet Hooligan either. Although he's much better than Nacatl (play forest, mox diamond, hooligan), I think if you really want to splash a color, you should go for blue.

Magus of the Unseen stops tezzeret combo, beats stiflenought and tinker DSC in the face, steals Smokestack and sacks it on itself, even removes an equipped sword of fire and ice. If you have enough mana on the table you can even grindstone a painter deck in response to his activation, so that his deck empties before yours. You can also steal activated mishra's factory and sack it on Sylvan Safekeeper, meaning factories can't really block your beats.

Noble Hierarch fixes mana (including blue) and makes for a more consistent turn 2 knight. Additionally, you can use stifles.

Gaddock Teeg stops tendrils, engineered explosives, chalice of the void (important with diamonds) and Tezzeret. I'm not sure if I would play the card in the main, but as a sideboard slot I think he'd do well.

[nineisnoone]

You are looking at the card to get lands from your deck. He is a KNIGHT he should BEAT. The option of crop rotation is nice and should be used when the situation calls for it. For example if you can cast him early on you could go for a strip/loam lock.

He isn't loam though.  He can't strip lock because he can't get it back out of the graveyard.  You could use him to search out all 4 of your Wastelands, but looking at your list you don't even run Wasteland.  If you mean he can tutor for Strip Mine once you have Life from the Loam, then sure that's a possibility. 

Terravore can die to crypt. The knight is much much better. I don't understand your motive to bring a card like Terravore into the discussion.

Why would he die to Crypt?  Aren't we playing Waste/Strip?  Doesn't the opponent play fetchlands?  Terravore gets bigger than Tarmogoyf in a deck that supports him, that's why I brought it up.  He also gets bigger than Knight against any deck with more than 2 lands in the graveyard and also has trample which is entirely relevant.

And don't be so paranoid. My "motive" is clearly to suggest cards that synergize with the card.  I have no idea what you thought my "motive" was for bringing up the card. 

A toolbox is not a miracle box. Don't do fancy things. The cards that you want to tutor for could be drawn and then they should be strong as well. Then fact that Knight can get them in fast is a bonus and adds strength to the deck.

A toolbox is as useful as it's tools.  If you can run miracles in it, then it's all that much better.  If you are running Nantuko Monastery, Maze of Ith, Strip Mine, and Bazaar of Baghdad, those cards don't really add much.  None of those cards particularly help out in any match-up.  And Monastery seems entirely redundant you don't seem for want of creatures.  It doesn't even get you colored mana. 

I've been leaning more towards Ice Flow over Maze of Ith as well, since then DSC won't be able to block.  Most of the time DSC can't kill you on it's first attack anyways.  There is the possibility of a mini-Tendrils finished with a DSC (or vice versa) but that's somewhat rare and fairly slow.  Against Oath you can't hit Akroma/Hellkite, but you can always Swords/Path it up in the SB.  Also if they go with Archangel in the board, the non-flying drawback is irrelevant. 

Generically, Ith is more for Combo/Control.  Ice Flow is more for aggro.

I would rather try out Countryside crusher then.

Crusher is an option.  Never played him so I can't say much about him, but I've seen him in TMWA lists before, so I assume he has his place somewhere in the format.  Off the top of my head, I don't even know what he does.  Except I know it gets lands into the graveyard somehow.

[Guli]

I think you are right on the red splash. Nacatl and Tin street may not be worth the red splash. Blue opens a lot windows if you ask me. I am not sold on Noble, i will wait that one out, want to see results, want to be convinced.

I played some again. I realized how strong Mox diamon/Loam/Bazaar can be. And you definitely want multiple riftstones. It is all about fixing mana when you are using bazaar in a fish deck. The Diamond and Riftstone make up for the loss of tempo. There is yet a lot to be discovered here that is another thing I want to note. I say go test all kinds of crazy lands/cards with knight. Something will pop up, something you didn't think of when theorizing. You also want more than maze of ith and Nantuko against creatures. You want the full 5x bazaar/crop. It works. You also want some instants besides the crop to pump tarm a bit more. Abolish might be a good idea.

I like how big the tarms and knights are. They put extreme pressure on the opponent clockwise.
I like how the knights can get your draw engine or strip lock. Not even counting maze and nantuko.
I like how canonist/believer/safekeeper can keep combo in check while you beat hard. This idea of shroud on important creatures is something I promoted months ago and now it comes back with more strength thanks to a new card printed.

The bazaar/loam engine was always an idea that was out there. This might be the time to really make it worthwhile. With mox diamond unrestricted, the new Knight and additional creative innovations I see this deck doing fine.

5x 1 drops (crop/safekeepers) invites Chalice of the void. I want to set that Chalice@1 ASAP. Also set it at zero after you drop your mox. I like Chalice better in here (instead of teeg) because it can be used to deny mana, stop explosives, crypts, relics. You don't mind drawing into moxes after it is set at zero because you have bazaar and no mana problems. Chlaice and Abolish are both FREE. I like free spells. They can both get cards in your hand into grave. I think mox diamond and abolish are both very luring with Knights/Loams on board. The problem is to have that plain in your hand when it matters (abolish). I am skeptical towards this idea. But perhaps with no forests and 4x Savannah, 8x plains the abolish could be supported. You still get land in your grave so the knight will be as happy as before. It would become more of a white weenie with green splash. Well with a lot green splash.

[nineisnoone]

Agreed with some of what you said there, but...

5x 1 drops (crop/safekeepers) invites Chalice of the void. I want to set that Chalice@1 ASAP. Also set it at zero after you drop your mox. I like Chalice better in here (instead of teeg) because it can be used to deny mana, stop explosives, crypts, relics.

Quick note.  Chalice should never stop explosives.  You can pay as much as you want.  If Chalice is set at 1, you can just pay  which gives you Sunburst 1.  Etc. etc.  That's what makes it rock so much.  It ignores both Spheres and Chalice. 

[Miaou]

Here are my thoughts on your list Guli:

While I used to include him everywhere, I now feel Tin Street Hooligan is inferior to Seal of Cleansing/Primordium. Especially without Null Rod, you need to be able to take out a Time Vault once it is cast even during their turn. It forces them to get a Will to get their win condition back or a Regrowth if they use green.
I love the fact that TSH can beat, but from my experience you need to disrupt first, then beat.

I am not a huge fan of Wild Nactyl. Especially since you already have 8 designated beaters. The guy is a little clock, but I don't see the point. I think you would be better off playing some anti-combo card such as Children of Korlis if you want a 1 drop. It would also make for a more stable mana base (if you replace TSH) keeping you in two colors.

While I might be off, I think that Gaddock Teeg should be in a deck like this. His ability can often buy you enough time to either get out even more disruption, or just finish the game off with beats. I would probably play him instead of Glowrider as with all your acceleration he is a realistic turn one play.

Finally, and that may be personal preference, I don't think a deck like this one can survive without Null Rod. Your cards are cheap so all this acceleration while nice, only helps first turn, since after that, most of your good cards cost 2 mana (Knight costs 3, however I don't think that playing him asap with disruption first is a wise choice).

I do like the initiative you are taking though, I will try something of my own and if it is decent, I shall post it. And I do think that Terravore is pretty brutal, especially since for the knight's ability to be usefull, you have to keep him from attacking which seems counterproductive.

[Guli]

Why would he die to Crypt?  Aren't we playing Waste/Strip?  Doesn't the opponent play fetchlands?  Terravore gets bigger than Tarmogoyf in a deck that supports him, that's why I brought it up.  He also gets bigger than Knight against any deck with more than 2 lands in the graveyard and also has trample which is entirely relevant.

And don't be so paranoid. My "motive" is clearly to suggest cards that synergize with the card.  I have no idea what you thought my "motive" was for bringing up the card.  

Well ok, I was a bit harsh. But still the 2 green makes me less interested. And dedicating more slots to do the same thing seems overdoing it. You already have tarm and knight. The trample is cute though but will only matter in specific match ups were you have less problems anyway.

I kinda ment relic, all graves are removed. Sorry for that.


Strip Mine early on can be a game breaker. I wonder how 4x Wastelands would work out. The problem is that you can't keep saccing lands. You use the ability when you really need it or see an opportunity and mostly want to attack with it dealing 5-6-7 damage a turn. I am not dismissing anything though. 4X Wasteland could work as well with rods and that would mean a heavy mana denial strategy, a prison deck. I am going for a more controlling approach.

[Guli]

// Lands
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Riftstone Portal
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 True Believer
    4 Knight of the Reliquary
    4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Life from the Loam
    1 Crop Rotation

Seems to me this could act as a shell. I don't see the need to add more creatures. Believer gives you shroud, keeper gives believer (and rest) shroud. Loam provides you with lands whom happily die for bazaar and keeper to pump the knight and tarm. Canonist is cute. Teeg is on a holiday.

I was just reading the thread with the survival idea. Just wondering if it would fit here as well with some modifications.

About the 4x Riftstone, they are amazing. Remember that this deck will most likely pack more lands but I just don't want to fill those slots yet to keep the discussion open.

[BruiZar]

Alright, I went through a whole bunch of lands to see if I could find some hidden gems there. This is what I came up with.


The ones I like:
Horizon Canopy - Gives  , and draws a card which you can replace for a Loam Dredge. I think this card definately has a place in the deck.
Tower of the Magistrate - Janky Sideboard tech vs workshop aggro. Blast your duplicant and blast your trike! (Although he shoots 3 times, usually a player will say 3 counters on Knight, then in response you play Tower and give him pro artifact)

The ones I'm not sure of:
Loa - Draw is always good no?
Gemstone Mine - Gives you all the colors of the rainbow, and goes to the grave without needing to sack it to anything.
Arena - Get rid of welders and confidants

The ones I dislike:
Rishadan Port - nifty land denial, but I don't really like it

[Guli]

Tower of the Magistrate - Janky Sideboard tech vs workshop aggro. Blast your duplicant and blast your trike! (Although he shoots 3 times, usually a player will say 3 counters on Knight, then in response you play Tower and give him pro artifact)

This is a very nice find, will support the safekeepers nicely in the post board. One thing though, in the testings the knight was never less then 5/5. Trike won't cut it


I just played a guy who used Magus of the Moon. I discovered that the Magus does absolutely NOTHING to this deck in terms of mana screwing. Sure it stops bazaar the deck doesn't really care about that when you have a keeper/knight active. You can imagine how it is to play this deck with aggro? Too many dinosaurs who can't be targeted. About the Magus Moon, i was very lured to use him and splash red again. With mox diamond and riftstones you have triple lands, it feels so confortable.. They can't be stripped and they give me all the mana I want. Too bad bazaar and magus don't like eachoter.

I came across Arena as well. The effect is great because it will destroy a creature with tarm/knight on the table. But the activation cost seems a bit stressing.

Gemstone is not necessary there are absolutely no mana problems. You prefer plains/forests.

Loa is interesting and I am also not sure about him.

[BruiZar]

Concerning Loa, I don't the library will cut it if you're running bazaars. You're right about Gemstone Mine.
What I really like about Tower of the Magistrate is that you can tap a forest before sacrificing it, then paying the activation cost with that sacrificed land. And yeah, fetch, tap is enough to make the knight stronger than the trike counters!