WGB aggro

[the boogie man]

What about teeg and pridemage? Pridemage seems really good right now. Heres what I'd play if I was playing your list:

-1 mindscensor
-1 duress

+3 pridemage
+2 teeg
+1 vamp

[Guli]

My friend that was the whole point, going more black to get a more stable mana base with swamp and being able to cast your black threats. Seal can replace Qasali.

Anyway I would not touch the Mindcensor he is key, and also not the duress which is a bomb.

If you feel confortable playing teeg pride just add them to the 4 free slots, your choice

x2 Gaddock
x2 Pride

[Miaou]

Guli:

The mana base I included in the list does have a basic Swamp. You have 5 fetches + Swamp + Jet/Lotus/Petal = 9 ways to "safely" get a black mana, where as I have 8 (only 4 black fetches). I wanted to include 4 Windswept Heath because depending on the match up, a basic Forest and Plains would come in (especially against match ups where Duress effects are less needed, or where Wastelands are present).

If the list could get away without fetching a basic Swamp early, I'm pretty sure I would switch the Scullers for ESGs in order to have added acceleration. But you may be right that Seal of Primordium is the way to go (as much as I love Qasali Pridemage). I wouldn't cut the Teegs though. But you have 4 open slots, so that is where they would come in

[Guli]

I am making suggestions based on things that work. I saw a lot black, so i don't think black is a splash anymore. This leads to the conclusion that green and white become the splash colors. TeeG and Qasali are not very easy to splash in. Running 1 swamp doesn't mean you have a black mana base. When I say black mana base I mean that every mana source in the deck grants you black mana. The duals will give you the splash colors you need. That is all I meant.

I also think that in a deck with a lot duress effects it is not a problem to run less acceleration. You want to start with swamp/duress and follow it up with whatever card that has priority after seeing his hand, wheter this is rod or confidant that depends on the match up.

Against explosive decks that don't care about the duress, stax and dredge there might be a weakness. So filling those 4 slots with cards that are strong in these match ups is the way to go i guess. What is cheap and effective against dregde and stax?

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Guli - great list!  youve solved the mana problem and left 4 open slots.  Kataki might be the answer as you can sack Sculler to remove a Bridge.

[Guli]

I think we should consider Ghost Quarter to target bazaar and shops early game and mid game with Aven it can wreck any deck. And sometimes even if they can get a basic in return you can still color screw them, worst case. And a lot of decks fetch their basics early on these days to feel safe. Ghost Quarter makes your wastelands stronger as well overall. I have a good feeling about Ghost Quarter it makes the rest of the deck stronger in general.

Also if you look at the color requirements, the only card that demands more color is Sculler. The rest only needs 1 on color mana and rest can be cast with whatever is on board. You don't need to use the strip/waste/quarter instantly. I would try to open with a duress effect with swamp and after that calculate the options depending on match up. If you know they don't run basics you can start having a field day.

MOVED LIST TO THIS POST

// Lands
    2 Ghost Quarter +2
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Scrubland
    3  Bayou
    1  Swamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Emerald +1
    1 Mox Pearl +1

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Tidehollow Sculler
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    4  Null Rod
    4  Diabolic Edict
    4  Seal of Primordium


I added the on 2 additional moxes, thought it would be handy to have additional color for the splash plus acceleration goes well with strip effects.

[Miaou]

What is cheap and effective against dregde and stax?

I know this might not be what you want to hear, but Qasali Pridemage fits the bill perfectly here. He can sacrifice himself against Dredge and is obviously relevant against Stax. I will look for other solutions, but they probably won't be in black.
About the Ghost Quarters, I think they could be nice, however the deck requires quite a lot of colored sources, so I don't think it is the way to go. It also pushes you to 24 mana sources which I find to be too much in a deck such as this with such a low curve. The other Moxen should be played, I agree with that, but maybe not the Lotus Petal. I think another fetchland would be better in that slot (giving you more chances to get that basic Swamp early).

[Guli]

Qasali allows dredge to successfully use their engine with Bazaar. It does not do that much.

Against shop you can't get Qasali in play without leaving yourself vulnerable to wastelands with these 3 colors. I picked the green seals because the green mana can get tarm into play as well against wastelands. You don't need avens in that match up.

Maybe it is wiser to use white seals so they have to choose screwing your white or green. This way you can at least get in 'Goyf OR seal.

Quarters are free and can't be unmasked or named by cabal, sure it slow you down as well but i rather nail that bazaar than hoping to get an active Qasali. It will be too late anyway.

There is really not that much of a color issue, i picked easy playable cards. In fact I am not truly convinced about those scullers, they can easily be bounced these days and take splash damage.

It also pushes you to 24 mana sources

6 of them are strip effects. That leaves you with 18 real sources and you have to factor in that some are artifact mana and there is null rod. I rather have a petal than emerald in this deck.

What role is sculler playing in this deck? You have 8 solid duress effects in the deck. I find sculler really fragile. Maybe extirpates are nice in combination with strips/duress and it can deal splash damage vs ichorid and get rid of wastelands.

I believe the new fish deck NEED black, Aven Mindcensor and Null Rod. I like the duress/strip effects as disruption. Why not fully go for this crippling strategy? Maybe cut that green all together and find another clock than tarm. White seals are still available. I am trying to bring focus to the deck with GOOD, STRONG, CHEAP card choices that get the job done. If this means cutting green then so be it. But maybe a tiny little green splash just for 'Goyf is still possible, i think he is good enough to do that, yea.

So i would like to see concrete ideas to make Ghost Quarters even more stronger so i can up the count to 4. I suggest taking out the scullers because they are as vulnerable as Canonist which is the reason I don't suggest Canonist anymore. We already running the most powerful duress effects out there. That is enough. We are running the best mana denial cards with 5 strips and Null Rod. If 4 Ghost Quarters can successfully be added to the deck I believe the deck can cause serious damage to their game plan and mana base and finish quickly with boosted 'Goyf thanks to seals and edicts.

Maybe sinkholes (sorcery-land boosting tarm again, just like edict= instant-creature and seal= artifact-enchantment and duress= sorcery-instant) to nail those basics

I am working on it, will check this thread again soon.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

hmmm

I like Ghost quarter - metioned it a few posts back - what about Damping Matrix - this hits Welder/Trike Tricks - does it mess with Dredge?  I know it hits the Trolls regen ability and Face Sticher

[nineisnoone]

it doesn't hit fatesticher.  it is only a card while in the graveyard, not a creature.  for example, you could still cycle a creature while dampening matrix is out.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

no but it stops it from untapping the bazaar when he comes out of the graveyard which is what i want to be doing

[Guli]

: You may tap or untap another target permanent.
Unearth (: Return this card from your graveyard to play. It gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play. Unearth only as a sorcery.)

it doesn't hit fatesticher.  it is only a card while in the graveyard, not a creature.  for example, you could still cycle a creature while dampening matrix is out.

It stops the activation and that is why he is in some dredge builds.

Believe it or not but I was thinking about Damping Matrix last night. Since tarm/confidant/aven don't use any activated abilities and running null rod means you won't have vials/jittes/vault+key in your deck so maybe the Matrix has some merits. I am scared of the   though. And that it might be too narrow. Also Null Rod is superior and I dedicating even more slots to for fill the roll of shutting down artifact activations could be a mistake.

With 7 strip effects (assuming 4waste/3Quarters/1strip mine) the match against dredge and workshop becomes a lot more bearable. Also a lot fish only run 1 maybe 2 basic lands. And most of the times they fetch it out early on. Especially if you show them you are playing wastelands.

The match ups were the quarters will be less effective are handled with almost every other card in the deck. I also want to note that Quarters could stop top deck tutors as well. Sure they can get a basic but they just lost the tinker or will they tutored for. But that is a side note. You have 8 duress, null rod, edict to cut of their road to tinker plan/ aven to seriously affect their game overall, seals(alongside rods) cut the vault/key road, and the strip effects will also be extremely annoying if we use them well timed. All strong cards nobody can deny that. But the slots are almost full. Should we go with additional duress with Sculler or try to make other match ups stronger? And consider their is also a sideboard plan.

// Lands
    3 Ghost Quarter
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Bloodstained Mire
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Scrubland
    3  Bayou
    2  Swamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Pearl

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Tarmogoyf
    3  Withered Wretch?
// Spells
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    4  Null Rod
    4  Diabolic Edict
    4  Seal of Cleansing

Maybe an additional swamp should be added to play with cards that have a   cost. The more basics the more solid against shop. It looks like suicide black but tarm + aven + seals make it very interesting. Still 3 open slots in this version. Mox emerald doesn't really seem necessary to me, i think the petal will do better with 3 colors and the small amount of green. The pearl is more justified with 8 white cards in the deck. I am being overly careful here i know. But I want to keep the base solid.

The Quarters can go to 3 copies making room for 4 slots again. I am just curious what can be added. I prefer another creature that is on color (black) but scullers don't seem to cut it for me in a meta were there is a lot of artifact hate thanks to vault/key.

Right now I am testing the old and fuzzy Withered Wretch to keep welders in check and to get out of strip locks and to take care of any dredgers that made it in the grave after i stripped their bazaar or to get get rid of bridges. It is a risky call though but I think with so many disruption there is margin for more slower control cards like Wretch.

[Miaou]

One thing I am not convinced about is the fact that you are including basic Swamps for the Stax match up...Post board against that deck, your Duress effects will most likely not be in your deck anymore meaning that the only true black threats will be: Confidants and Edicts. Edicts not being that great in the match up.
So if you really want to combat Stax, you need either white or green mana.

[nineisnoone]

no but it stops it from untapping the bazaar when he comes out of the graveyard which is what i want to be doing

I is dumb.

I also want to note that Quarters could stop top deck tutors as well.

Nice.  Hadn't thought of that.

[Guli]

One thing I am not convinced about is the fact that you are including basic Swamps for the Stax match up...Post board against that deck, your Duress effects will most likely not be in your deck anymore meaning that the only true black threats will be: Confidants and Edicts. Edicts not being that great in the match up.
So if you really want to combat Stax, you need either white or green mana.

Would you add bitterblosom to fight of stax with black mana?

I think against shop, the multiple strips will be strong. But it will set you back too. So it is important to have those swamps to build up solid mana.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Rancor and Kataki or more seals - combined with the additional ghost quarters to fight Stax - I do like Damping Matrix in addition to NR as a 3-of.

[Guli]

Why not just go with 3x Kataki main deck then instead of those wretch. Yea seems like a nice way to put more pressure on their mana and annoy the hell out of stax.

SB:

3x Extirpate
3x Jailer
3x Children of Korlis

not sure about the rest of the SB.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

3x Krosan Grip or Viridian Shaman to combat Chalice

[Miaou]

Using this list:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    4 Windswept Heath
    3  Scrubland
    2  Bayou
    1  Swamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Lotus Petal

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
    4  Duress
    4  Thoughtseize
    4  Null Rod
    4  Diabolic Edict <- Cruel Edict better?

I am looking for a SB. I mostly expect to face blue based control (be it Tezz, Tezz with Welders, Control Slaver, Random Legacy Control, ...) and then a mixture of Combo and Fish. There are a few Stax and Dredge players, but not many. The non basic hate is pretty high, so I need basics from the board.
A few words about the list: it is pretty stable and getting access to the right colored lands isn't all that bad. I dropped the Scullers because I am a bit slow and realised what I was using them for (a consistant 2 drop) can be answered by ESG, and it allows you to get better disruption out. It also creates more turn 1 plays which is always good. I hate going: land, go.

Right now what I have is this:
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Darkblast
3 Pithing Needle
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Seal of Primordium

The basics come in against Fish, Stax and most blue based control decks that pack Blood Moon. The 3 Darkblasts are here to take care of Welders which are a pain. The seals are against Stax mostly although this might be better off as Oxidize (I am not a huge fan of Krosan Grip in that match up, since the mana cost is pretty steep with spheres and Wastelands) Chalice doesn't see much (if any) play. The Needles are for that match up as well as Ichorid and other random decks  that may show up. Finally the Crypts are for Ichorid, but I am not sure which would be best between that and Extirpate. I would like to run Choke or another type of hate card against blue, but I can't figure out what to cut for it since the main deck is pretty much geared to beat blue decks anyways.

So yeah...Comments and suggestions welcome!

[JudasKilled]

ive been testing this deck for awhile because its very similar to a rgw version i was running.

darkblast i think would be a mistake, pithing does the same thing except it is actually good in other match ups.

spirit guide just seems to be a heap of shit, you cant afford tyo give up cards and a 2/2 for 3 sucks big floppy donkey dick.

seals of primordium are good but i prefer k grip against yer time vault and oath matches seeing as they run heavy counters and you can take them by surprise if they ovwer extend.

tormods crypt i dont get, leylines is far better imo. helps against welders if they have no yard as well.

yer shop match updoesnt look all that great but its probablty not gonna get much better.

yer final problem is a more aggroey deck is gonna rape you unless you get lucky.

[Miaou]

Thanks for the feedback. I agree with you on some points but not on everything:

First of all, ESG. Where I play, non basic hate is pretty rampant. So fetching out a turn 1 Swamp to be able to Duress and not lose a land (via Wasteland, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon or Back to Basics, etc.) is important. Therefore that means that I need a turn 2 play that needs one black mana (Bob or Null Rod). I want the ESG slot to be something I can cast reliably on turn 2. I had Tidehollow Sculler in that slot because it is nice disruption and it fits the 1 black mana criteria. However what I didn't like about him was the fact that if he gets countered or removed, then my Null Rod would be vulnerable to Welders (which also sees alot of play here). So I opted for the ESG in order to be able play my Teegs or Pridemages turn 2 even if I fetch a basic Swamp first turn.
However I could use 1 Mox Emerald and 1 Mox Pearl instead of them. Which would actually be a good idea
The last ESG slot could be a 4th Teeg or maybe a Demonic Consultation.

Onto the rest, where I mostly agree with you:
Needles are good. However I already run 3 in the SB. But the Darkblasts are pretty insane against decks packing Welders, Confidants and the like which do see play. This slot could however be used for more solid removal such as Swords to Plowshares. Better against straight aggro decks, but worst against decks packing counters obviously.

I will be trying out Krosan Grip instead of the Seals. However my biggest concern is not being able to cast it reliably early enough. If I weren't playing Wastelands then it would be alot easier.

You are probably right about the Crypts, I just wanted some decent GY removal. Can you elaborate as to why Leylines are better (considering I probably won't be bringing them in vs Welder decks as there isn't much to take out)?

[JudasKilled]

leyline slows dredge down right from the get go, they have to get to the bounces while you beat them, i just think its stronger
against welder i also think its great if they cant flip artifacts they lose half of the tricks they have.  my problem with crypt is can be pithing'd or just shatterd. leyline they have 2 bounce and hopefully u can replay it, or enchantment removal it, and none the match ups u want letyline for runs any.

As far as magus of the moon the one thing i do is only run 4 seize not 4+duress. and i run figure of destiny, that little badtard can go the whole way against shop  + hes more gas for a deck that runs out of gas

[urweak]

This is from an articale on SCG.

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Lotus Petal
4 Null Rod

Creatures
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
   

Legendary Creatures
3 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries
3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
   Sideboard:

2 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Yixlid Jailer
2 Seal Of Primordium
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Orim's Chant
2 Kataki, War's Wage

[JudasKilled]

that list just weird 2 me, no lotus>? no mox's? id rather have a mox become inactive due to null rod then rfg a spirit guide. Petal but no lotus? weird

not sure on the strips , it think its to hard on the manabase and without moxes you cant afford to be 2/3 land behind all the time

[Smmenen]

that list just weird 2 me, no lotus>? no mox's? id rather have a mox become inactive due to null rod then rfg a spirit guide. Petal but no lotus? weird

not sure on the strips , it think its to hard on the manabase and without moxes you cant afford to be 2/3 land behind all the time

I designed the deck to be a budget deck: i.e. with NO power.   

The Strips are harder on the mana base, but the advantage they produce is critical.   Every Waste/Strip played after turn two is a tempo gain.   Wasting on turn one is tempo neutral, and can randomly win games.  Plus, Waste/Strip nicely complement Null Rod. 

[JudasKilled]

budget, that makes more sense

[Smmenen]

budget, that makes more sense

These decks are designed for players on a budget.   I also think they can compete as such.  

[JudasKilled]

im on a team, i dont own a single card i just send the decklist and play, honestly i run aggro in vintage for 2 reasons.

a list of 40 restricted cards +4 fow and 4 drain, just seems really really gay to me, kinda the opposite of what i think magic was supposed to be

2ndly i love beating those geeky little people whos world is magic with "crappy cards" or " my favorite extended deck" because its just fun to win with something that isnt the same deck that 40% of the field is playing. 

My opinion is if your playing a mirror your playing the game wrong, create, innovate, try out somethign new wheter it be weenies or combo or whatever.

I guess my point is just because it doesnt run blue doesnt mean its not good, i took down two back to back tourneys for a library and a time walk, with r/g/w gadock teeg/ aven mindcensor, FoD stomp and i lost 2 games total in both tourneys.

Against a verty strong field, including owen mike solmossy, and others so i dont think its fair to say the deck were discussing isnt good enough, or isnt tier 1, i beleve it is

[Miaou]

With the way things are shaping up, I believe that running some main deck Extirpates could be worthwhile. If AKs, Crop Rotations and Entombs show up in big numbers, then Extirpate will hurt all three cards pretty good (or badly depending on which side ).

I would probably do something like this:
// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Bloodstained Mire
    4 Windswept Heath
    3  Scrubland
    2  Bayou
    1  Swamp
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
    4  Duress
    3  Thoughtseize
    3  Extirpate
    4  Null Rod
    4  Diabolic Edict

Any thoughts on this?

[JudasKilled]

Its very similar to a list ive been running, looks good