[Premium Article] SMIP -- Building Vintage on a Budget: Suicide Black 2K9

[Smmenen]

A little while ago I promised that I'd seriously explore how one might build decks in Vintage on a budget.   The inspiration didn't come from someone begging or cajoling -- people had tried for years to get me to try and use my design prowess/experience in Vintage for budget decks, something I'd strongly resisted.  Rather, the inspiration came from an article I did on "unrestricted Vintage," and my experience in Vintage for the last couple of years.  I now think it is possible to build competitive budget decks where running "auto-includes,' such as Black Lotus, are not 100% a given.  Why?  The short answer is that all of my budget decks run the budget "power 8" of 4 Chalice and 4 Null Rod.   For a more detailed explanation, you'll have to read this article!

This is only the first article on Building on a Budget, but not the last.   My next list is even sicker.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/16819_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Vintage_On_A_Budget_Suicide_Black_2K9.html

Editor's Blurb:

Monday, December 8th - Vintage, by its very nature, is hardly budget-friendly. Excluding possible cards is somehow against the purity of the format. However, Stephen Menendian believes it’s possible to build creative budget options that aren’t necessarily suboptimal…

[Shimster]

To be honest - while I really liked your Parfait list - this is absolutely the worst Sui list I've seen in a while.

Vampiric Tutor in a deck, which lacks CA even with a one off Necro? No black staples like Hymn to Tourach or Sinkhole? Why do you run misdirectable Diabolic Edict in favour of like Imperial Edict in a proactive deck? I am no fan of Chalice without Workshop, either.

So, without a harsh tone, what decks did you test against?

[Smmenen]

To be honest - while I really liked your Parfait list - this is absolutely the worst Sui list I've seen in a while.

Vampiric Tutor in a deck, which lacks CA even with a one off Necro?

No black staples like Hymn to Tourach or Sinkhole?

That partially explains why Suicide Black has always remained a fringe deck.   What was needed was a radical revamp for the entire archetype.  Neither Sinkhole nor Hymn to Tourach are good enough in competitive Vintage in 2008/2009   So long as those cards remain "staples," Suicide Black will be in trouble.

My approach is a total overhaul to the archetype. 

Vamp is explained in the article, but it has to do with Yawg Will and a number of other cards.  Yes, Yawg Will is that good

Why do you run misdirectable Diabolic Edict in favour of like Imperial Edict in a proactive deck?

It's kinda funny that you are concerned about Misdirecting Diabolic Edict after you criticize me for not running Sinkhole and Hymn

I am no fan of Chalice without Workshop, either.

Then you missed the point    All of my budget decks will be running 4 Null Rod AND 4 Chalice.   

[Ben Kossman]

The Sui black lists I've seen in Legacy all play Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker with Pernicious Deed. Goyf seems necessary in this archetype as a secondary threat to replace either Negator or Shade or a disruption card...

Artifact:8
4 Null Rod
2 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Black:24
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hymn to Tourach/Thoughtsieze
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

Gold:4
4 Pernicious Deed

Green:4
4 Tarmogoyf

Land:20
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp

I hear Tombstalker is quite good also but it has bad synergy with Confidant and Goyf. Love Suiblack as an archetype. Definitely need a set of Null Rods MD. Great article. The deck has come a long way since using Flesh reaver, now it has a surplus of good cards available. I think some guy had an article on a deck he calls Eva Green in Legacy that splashed green for Goyf and Deed.

[Shimster]

Well, I missed the point then. I didn't read the article because I am a non-prem SCG user (although I pondered often to sign up because of your articles in the past).

Maybe we have to agree to differ over it, but I would never run a deck like Suicide Black without Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach. It might look vastly different overseas, though.

3 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Dark Ritual

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Tombstalker

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mind Twist

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Null Rod
4 Sinkhole

This is the list I like most at the moment. It has been developed by Timo Schünemann and runs very smoothly in the German metagame.

[SiegeX]

Steven, I'm not digging the sideboard at all.  Might I suggest a Helm of Obediance or two in the side that you would bring in with Leyline for an alternate kill.  Chances are if you bring in leyline, you're going to mull a few times to find one and having half of your combo out before the game begins ain't a bad position to be in.

Well, I missed the point then.

Sink hole is just plain bad in today's vintage.  With all the fetchlands running rampant its incredibly easy to play around and by the time you can use it, I've already used the land for whatever purpose I needed it for; this card has no place in modern vintage.

Now that we have 8x duress effects with thoughtseize there should be no reason why you want to play hymn over that.  I would much rather cherry pick a card from my opp's hand than roll the dice on having hymn hit the one I really need.  Playing a turn-1 duress effect is key to suicide blacks survival (sounds funny don't it) and relying on ritual to power out that hymn is not consistent enough.

Tombstalker just seems way too slow and expensive.  You can't power it out turn one like you can negator and sui black generally only has about 3 mana on the table at any given time.  Sans a ritual that means you're going to have to need to toss 5 cards and then tap out for a 5/5 flyer, no thanks.  I'd much rather keep those cards in the GY to be reused via a YawgWill to win the game with a tendrils or just put more threats on the board.

And as far as mind twist goes, there is a reason its unrestricted, sans ritual/ritual/mindtwist it sucks.  And as Steven's article mentions, you need at least 3 mana to gain any card advantage off it.

[Neonico]

In the Actual Metagame, SuiBlack is alot more viable than during the Pitch Long/Gifts era, simply because Misdirection isn't a concern anymore (Think it's the same in the US than we got in Europe : A misdirection Free metagame, as i can see it in the tournaments results.)

So i think that Tourach is a good complement to Duress/Mind Twists, but i also totally agree that Sinkhole is bad in the deck actually.

[lastbeliever]

In terms of creatures, the only other real choice seems to be tarmogoyf. While I love the thought that bitterblosssom and bob might get you there (and to be fair they have proven that they can in standard, extended and legacy), I think goyf is simply still underrated in vintage and is a must. Yes first turn negator is sexy and I love that guy too, but goyf is just an amazing threat and makes hands without rituals much more bearable. Another option would be moving into white just ever so slightly and giving tidehollow sculler a shot. Although mesmeric fiend has been around for quite some time and has seen only minor play. Maybe scullers second power makes him good enough...

[Troy_Costisick]

The Sui black lists I've seen in Legacy all play Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker with Pernicious Deed. Goyf seems necessary in this archetype as a secondary threat to replace either Negator or Shade or a disruption card...

One could add Goyf but doing that means two things:  Making the deck more complicated and making the deck more expensive.  The premise of the article is to make a deck that is cheap and competitive.  Adding Goyfee means adding Fetch Lands and Dual Lands and probably a basic Forest or two just in case.  Why go to all that trouble when Negater is a perfectly suitable alternative and can be dropped turn 1 while Goyf can't?  It's not like there's a bunch of burn decks in Vintage, so the what drawback there is on him is mitigated. 

[BigBarn]

Sink hole is just plain bad in today's vintage. 

Why play Sink Hole when you can play Smallpox (much better against Fetchlands)?

I also echo the thoughts on adding Tarmogoyf.  It's not really a budget deck if it runs Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom anyway.

[Magnum Innominandum]

Hi Smmenen,

First thanks for the article, I love when you get out of known archetypes to write about others options. I think this is the kind of things that are needed to get new ideas to bloom, without them only restriction/unrestriction/new set seeing printing would give vintage changes.     

As for the use of bitterblosssom in suicide black I can't help it but to go back at what Edward was saying about the Zombies:

   Let’s imagine that I cast a Carnophage on turn one.  By the end of the fifth turn, the Carnophage will have done eight damage.  A different scenario: Let’s say that I was busy disrupting my opponent, and I couldn’t cast my Flesh Reaver or Nantuko Shade until turn three.  By the end of the fifth turn, I will have done the same amount of damage with a Flesh Reaver as I did with the Carnophage that had a two turn head start!  Similarly, Nantuko Shade will almost certainly deal at least eight damage in such a scenario - and in both of these examples I gave the Carnophage a head start just to demonstrate how much slower it is than the optimal creatures!  So as you can see, the illusion of dealing more damage faster with Zombies is merely that - an illusion!


Since bitterblossom, even if cast on turn one, would have only done 6 damage by the end of the fifth turn, this is even less than Carnophage witch is the example used by Edward in his primer. I would like to know why you think this is fast enough for vintage and  help you put you opponent on a clock? Even an Ashenmoor Gouger casted on turn 3 would have done more damage by that time. I see the added value against Staxx and the combo with Gate to Phyrexia. If you would have had a splash for green with Tarmogoyf I would also have seen the fact that this is a +2 as counting as a Tribal and an Enchantment cards but even with that I don't see the need for it. Could you elaborate on this choice.

Regards

 

[Harlequin]

I built this deck With (...for) my brother to play at Myriad.  He could have done better, but I think it was a mixture of experiance, un-preparedness, and somewhat bad pairings. 

6 Swamps
5 Fetches
1 Urbog, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
2 Mox-B, Lotus
4 Dark Ritual

2 Petrified Field
3 Waste
1 Strip

4 Hypnotic
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade

3 Null Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Cabal Therepy
2 Raven's Crime
5 DT, Vamp, Necro, Yawg, Entomb

-- Side --
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Small Pox
4 Bitter Blossom
4 Withered Wretch
2 ? something

Originally we had bitterblossoms maindeck in place of the Nantukos, but in testing we were finding that the deck could bearly race itself.  If you took like 3-5 damage in the early game you almost couldn't race yourself.  In watching the deck play, we were both very happy with the Crucibles, and the Raven's crime.  That added an interesting dimention to the deck.

[hismastersvoice]

Hi Smmenen,

First thanks for the article, I love when you get out of known archetypes to write about others options. I think this is the kind of things that are needed to get new ideas to bloom, without them only restriction/unrestriction/new set seeing printing would give vintage changes.     

As for the use of bitterblosssom in suicide black I can't help it but to go back at what Edward was saying about the Zombies:

   Let’s imagine that I cast a Carnophage on turn one.  By the end of the fifth turn, the Carnophage will have done eight damage.  A different scenario: Let’s say that I was busy disrupting my opponent, and I couldn’t cast my Flesh Reaver or Nantuko Shade until turn three.  By the end of the fifth turn, I will have done the same amount of damage with a Flesh Reaver as I did with the Carnophage that had a two turn head start!  Similarly, Nantuko Shade will almost certainly deal at least eight damage in such a scenario - and in both of these examples I gave the Carnophage a head start just to demonstrate how much slower it is than the optimal creatures!  So as you can see, the illusion of dealing more damage faster with Zombies is merely that - an illusion!


Since bitterblossom, even if cast on turn one, would have only done 6 damage by the end of the fifth turn, this is even less than Carnophage witch is the example used by Edward in his primer. I would like to know why you think this is fast enough for vintage and  help you put you opponent on a clock? Even an Ashenmoor Gouger casted on turn 3 would have done more damage by that time. I see the added value against Staxx and the combo with Gate to Phyrexia. If you would have had a splash for green with Tarmogoyf I would also have seen the fact that this is a +2 as counting as a Tribal and an Enchantment cards but even with that I don't see the need for it. Could you elaborate on this choice.

Regards

 

My assumption would be that, even if Blossom is slower than, let's say Carnophage, it is a lot more resilient as a threat. While creature removal isn't a big factor in Vintage, bounce and other creatures still are, and anything that can be answered in the red zone is worth less than something that can't. A CoV targeting Carno buys you 2 full turns of no damage. The same CoV employed against Blossom itself buys you 1 turn.

Also, two Blossoms are nuts. Two Carnophages are not.

[zeus-online]

What's this? I haven't been on the drain for a week and suddenly rich shay is playing elves and menendian is writing about sui black!

A shame that i can't view the decklist...But i'm guessing it got (obv.) 4 rods, 4 chalices...and 4 duress, 4 thoughtseize...and as creatures it got 3-4 negators, 4 bobs...and probably a few bitterblossoms (not really creatures, but serves the same function)
Waste/strips are probably present aswell.

Are the leylines maindeck or SB? Neither would surprise me.

/Zeus

[overseer1234]

Well I like the list, but since I don't have blossom's (and refuse to boy them until they rotate out of standaard and the price becomes reasonable) I think I'll just splash green and play goyf.  This way I can play pernicious deed or krosan grip instead of gate to phyrexia in the board.

[Magnum Innominandum]

Hi Smmenen,

First thanks for the article, I love when you get out of known archetypes to write about others options. I think this is the kind of things that are needed to get new ideas to bloom, without them only restriction/unrestriction/new set seeing printing would give vintage changes.     

As for the use of bitterblosssom in suicide black I can't help it but to go back at what Edward was saying about the Zombies:

   Let’s imagine that I cast a Carnophage on turn one.  By the end of the fifth turn, the Carnophage will have done eight damage.  A different scenario: Let’s say that I was busy disrupting my opponent, and I couldn’t cast my Flesh Reaver or Nantuko Shade until turn three.  By the end of the fifth turn, I will have done the same amount of damage with a Flesh Reaver as I did with the Carnophage that had a two turn head start!  Similarly, Nantuko Shade will almost certainly deal at least eight damage in such a scenario - and in both of these examples I gave the Carnophage a head start just to demonstrate how much slower it is than the optimal creatures!  So as you can see, the illusion of dealing more damage faster with Zombies is merely that - an illusion!


Since bitterblossom, even if cast on turn one, would have only done 6 damage by the end of the fifth turn, this is even less than Carnophage witch is the example used by Edward in his primer. I would like to know why you think this is fast enough for vintage and  help you put you opponent on a clock? Even an Ashenmoor Gouger casted on turn 3 would have done more damage by that time. I see the added value against Staxx and the combo with Gate to Phyrexia. If you would have had a splash for green with Tarmogoyf I would also have seen the fact that this is a +2 as counting as a Tribal and an Enchantment cards but even with that I don't see the need for it. Could you elaborate on this choice.

Regards

 

My assumption would be that, even if Blossom is slower than, let's say Carnophage, it is a lot more resilient as a threat. While creature removal isn't a big factor in Vintage, bounce and other creatures still are, and anything that can be answered in the red zone is worth less than something that can't. A CoV targeting Carno buys you 2 full turns of no damage. The same CoV employed against Blossom itself buys you 1 turn.

Also, two Blossoms are nuts. Two Carnophages are not.

I'm not for Carnophage either don't get me wrong, actually I think this a creature that shouldn't make the cut in any suicide black deck list. I just think that Blossom is a bad card in this deck, not fast enough to race your opponents if they are playing either control of combo, I see it being good against Staxx but other than this single match up I don't see it being relevant enough to make the cut.

I see a splash of green adding much more to the deck list as in this one (i personally don't like the 3 mind twist, I would replace them with Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will and Death Wish also I would swap a Umezawa's Jitte for a Tendrils of Agony): http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=940

3. Timo Schünemann
"[TMT] Gb Suicide"
Maindeck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Mind Twist
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sinkhole
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (18):
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SideBoard(15):
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oxidize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Yixlid Jailer

[Smmenen]

Regarding Hymn to Tourach, as I said in the article, I think Cabal Therapy is probably better than Hymn to Tourach as well.   

I would run Cabal Therapy before running Hymn. Cabal Therapy was printed after Ed (Legend) wrote his Suicide Primer (as, obviously, was Thoughtseize).   Both Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are superior to Hymn to Tourach.   Hymn being random and the possibility of hitting land might have been nice in 2002.  But this is 2009.  Pinpoint accuracy is required or you might just die.  Plus, with bitterblossom tokens, flashing it back is pretty easy.

Duress > Thoughtseize > Cabal Therapy > > > > > Hymn to Tourach    Raven's Crime might actually be better too.

As for the green splash - I am sympathetic, but remember, this is *Budget* article for a budget deck.   There is no Mox Jet, no Imperial Seal, and I haven't even included dual lands.   To put Goyf in there would be to add probably another $200 to the deck.   

[BigBarn]

Bitterblossom is a good card because it gives you options.  You can play defensively against RG Beats or Fish and chump their largest guy each turn, or you can crank out dudes and alpha strike.  The card is better than carnophage because you're not locked in to one game mode.

Any ideas on how to upgrade this deck to non-budget (and if it would be competitive)?

[AmbivalentDuck]

1 Urbog, Tomb of Yawgmoth
...
3 Waste
1 Strip

Won't your goal often be to remove your opponent's access to black by Stripping his Underground Seas?

3 Diabolic Edict

Should this be Imperial Edict instead?  There is very real utility to instant speed answers, but this is also the one meaningfully Misdirectable spell in the deck and you value your creatures since they make and maintain card advantage.

[Magnum Innominandum]

Regarding Hymn to Tourach, as I said in the article, I think Cabal Therapy is probably better than Hymn to Tourach as well.   

I would run Cabal Therapy before running Hymn. Cabal Therapy was printed after Ed (Legend) wrote his Suicide Primer (as, obviously, was Thoughtseize).   Both Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy are superior to Hymn to Tourach.   Hymn being random and the possibility of hitting land might have been nice in 2002.  But this is 2009.  Pinpoint accuracy is required or you might just die.  Plus, with bitterblossom tokens, flashing it back is pretty easy.

Duress > Thoughtseize > Cabal Therapy > > > > > Hymn to Tourach    Raven's Crime might actually be better too.

As for the green splash - I am sympathetic, but remember, this is *Budget* article for a budget deck.   There is no Mox Jet, no Imperial Seal, and I haven't even included dual lands.   To put Goyf in there would be to add probably another $200 to the deck.   

I agree with you regarding Hymn to tourach is quite outdated even if it get more card it does it in a random fashion witch it not as strong as to get to chose what they discard.

I see the intended purpose of your article of having this build as a *Budget* deck, but if you would raised it to a non budget deck what change would you apply to this deck?

Also what about Bitterblossom, as I said earlier it seem to be too slow for vintage and the fact that it is good in the staxx matchup and also good when someone play CoV against you doesn't seem to be enough to justify it, could you elaborate on this card choice?

Also do you think it would be better to run Chalice of the Void instead of Sinkhole, I know that Chalice of the Void at 0 block moxen but Null Rod also block this and address the Painter Combo and Chalice of the Void set a 1 block most of your disruption and accelerate.

Bitterblossom is a good card because it gives you options.  You can play defensively against RG Beats or Fish and chump their largest guy each turn, or you can crank out dudes and alpha strike.  The card is better than carnophage because you're not locked in to one game mode.

Any ideas on how to upgrade this deck to non-budget (and if it would be competitive)?

If I was to play this in a tournament I guest I would end up with a list close to:
Maindeck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Confidant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Toughtseize
4 Sinkhole 
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Death Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (19):
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SideBoard(15):
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oxidize
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Yixlid Jailer

[Stormanimagus]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

[Smmenen]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

That's another example of the many, many synergies of Bitterblossom.  Someone else pointed to diabolic intent, a demonic tutor with Bitterblossoms.   

My problem with it is that i view Null Rod as 100% essential, and I wouldn't run less than 4. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

That's another example of the many, many synergies of Bitterblossom.  Someone else pointed to diabolic intent, a demonic tutor with Bitterblossoms.   

My problem with it is that i view Null Rod as 100% essential, and I wouldn't run less than 4. 

Yeah, Skullclamp and Null Rod don't mix well.  However, Diabolic Intent and Bitterblossom/Dark Confidant is amazing.  That is a card highly worth considering, especially if your main objective is to go the Tendrils route.

[Stormanimagus]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

That's another example of the many, many synergies of Bitterblossom.  Someone else pointed to diabolic intent, a demonic tutor with Bitterblossoms.   

My problem with it is that i view Null Rod as 100% essential, and I wouldn't run less than 4. 

I haven't been playing Vintage at tournaments for almost a year. Is Null Rod really necessary when you already run 4 Chalice. Isn't the effect kinda redundant when you set Chalice to 0? Is the Tez Combo REALLY a good enough reason to run Null Rod? Since this list doesn't really run power of its own shouldn't Chalice at 0 be the play like 80% of the time? I'm just confused right now as to what Null Rod Hoses (other than power) that this deck should be afraid of.

[Smmenen]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

That's another example of the many, many synergies of Bitterblossom.  Someone else pointed to diabolic intent, a demonic tutor with Bitterblossoms.   

My problem with it is that i view Null Rod as 100% essential, and I wouldn't run less than 4. 

I haven't been playing Vintage at tournaments for almost a year. Is Null Rod really necessary when you already run 4 Chalice. Isn't the effect kinda redundant when you set Chalice to 0? Is the Tez Combo REALLY a good enough reason to run Null Rod? Since this list doesn't really run power of its own shouldn't Chalice at 0 be the play like 80% of the time? I'm just confused right now as to what Null Rod Hoses (other than power) that this deck should be afraid of.

I spent a good deal of time explaining this article.  I suggest you shell out $5 for premium -- it will answer your questions.

[Stormanimagus]

Stephen. I'm curious about one thing. I tried innovating on Sui-Black a while ago, and my list included a lot of the cards that yours does (though, because I only ever play in proxied tournaments it also included Black Lotus and Mox Jet, and splashed for Ancestral and Time Walk), but I also tried out Skullclamp with those Bitterblossoms. With all the creatures in the deck, might not Skullclamp be a good refuelling option? I'm just thinking about the scenarios:

Skullclamp tokens for CA.
Skullclamp Confidant when you are on low life in a stalemate game for CA and to avoid dying.
Skullclamp a negator to have a faster clock and to get some semblance of CA when he dies (though you will be losing cards most likely to damage on him)

Perhaps Skullclamp would go better in a list more focused on creatures?

Just an idea, and I'm wondering what you think about it Stephen.

That's another example of the many, many synergies of Bitterblossom.  Someone else pointed to diabolic intent, a demonic tutor with Bitterblossoms.   

My problem with it is that i view Null Rod as 100% essential, and I wouldn't run less than 4. 

I haven't been playing Vintage at tournaments for almost a year. Is Null Rod really necessary when you already run 4 Chalice. Isn't the effect kinda redundant when you set Chalice to 0? Is the Tez Combo REALLY a good enough reason to run Null Rod? Since this list doesn't really run power of its own shouldn't Chalice at 0 be the play like 80% of the time? I'm just confused right now as to what Null Rod Hoses (other than power) that this deck should be afraid of.

I spent a good deal of time explaining this article.  I suggest you shell out $5 for premium -- it will answer your questions.

I apologize. I actually DO have premium and was just too lazy to read the article carefully. For the purposes of what role Null Rod is playing I suppose it is pretty necessary.

Yeah, unfortunately, as cool as Skullclamp/Bitterblossom looks on paper, I think it may just be "Win More" and Bitterblossom by itself should probably do the job. I do want to ask the question though about 2 possible includes in the deck that I'm interested (one was brought up in a previous post):

Diabolic Tutor as a 1-3 of?
1-2 more Tendrils?

More Tendrils would seem to be a decent idea with Confidant and Bitterblossom, but is there simply no room?

[Smmenen]

Well, I missed the point then. I didn't read the article because I am a non-prem SCG user (although I pondered often to sign up because of your articles in the past).

Maybe we have to agree to differ over it, but I would never run a deck like Suicide Black without Sinkhole and Hymn to Tourach. It might look vastly different overseas, though.

Here is my chief contention:


1) Hymn

Worse than Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy without a doubt.   Probably worse than Unmask.  Possibly worse than Raven's Crime or Smallpox.   

Why would you run it?   

2) Sinkhole

Terribly outdated.   Remember, Sinkhole was good in an era that Back to Basics was good.  That era is long gone.   Pithing Needle is like Sinkhole on a bunch of cards, it only costs 1 mana, and is VERY versatile.  Can shut down time vault, Tezzeret, Goblin Welder, etc.   In any case, Sinkhole is MUCH worse than either Chalice or Null Rod.   

Hi Smmenen,

First thanks for the article, I love when you get out of known archetypes to write about others options. I think this is the kind of things that are needed to get new ideas to bloom, without them only restriction/unrestriction/new set seeing printing would give vintage changes.     

As for the use of bitterblosssom in suicide black I can't help it but to go back at what Edward was saying about the Zombies:

   Let’s imagine that I cast a Carnophage on turn one.  By the end of the fifth turn, the Carnophage will have done eight damage.  A different scenario: Let’s say that I was busy disrupting my opponent, and I couldn’t cast my Flesh Reaver or Nantuko Shade until turn three.  By the end of the fifth turn, I will have done the same amount of damage with a Flesh Reaver as I did with the Carnophage that had a two turn head start!  Similarly, Nantuko Shade will almost certainly deal at least eight damage in such a scenario - and in both of these examples I gave the Carnophage a head start just to demonstrate how much slower it is than the optimal creatures!  So as you can see, the illusion of dealing more damage faster with Zombies is merely that - an illusion!


Since bitterblossom, even if cast on turn one, would have only done 6 damage by the end of the fifth turn, this is even less than Carnophage witch is the example used by Edward in his primer. I would like to know why you think this is fast enough for vintage and  help you put you opponent on a clock? Even an Ashenmoor Gouger casted on turn 3 would have done more damage by that time. I see the added value against Staxx and the combo with Gate to Phyrexia. If you would have had a splash for green with Tarmogoyf I would also have seen the fact that this is a +2 as counting as a Tribal and an Enchantment cards but even with that I don't see the need for it. Could you elaborate on this choice.

Regards

 

My assumption would be that, even if Blossom is slower than, let's say Carnophage, it is a lot more resilient as a threat. While creature removal isn't a big factor in Vintage, bounce and other creatures still are, and anything that can be answered in the red zone is worth less than something that can't. A CoV targeting Carno buys you 2 full turns of no damage. The same CoV employed against Blossom itself buys you 1 turn.

Also, two Blossoms are nuts. Two Carnophages are not.

Exactly.   

And against a Sundering Titan, 1 Blossom is a Forcefield. 

[desolutionist]

I was playing with Sui Black a while ago and posted this on my forums:

4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dark Confidant

4 Living Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Unmask
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
------------------
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Tombstalker
1 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Ignot Chewer
1 Stingscourger
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Withered Wretch
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Extirpate

I sort of concluded that the deck needs Tarmogoyf, but really didn't care to cut anything.  Living Wish was really good, and mega fun to play.

[xwt]

The deck looks good. The sideboard looks meh. I pretty much agree on everything in the maindeck, but I'm unconvinced about Phyrexian Negator. Perhaps I should stfu and give it a try anyway.

I'll look silly to propose that, but bitterblossom allows to maintain a hardlock with contamination, a card that could see some sideboard lovin'.

[nineisnoone]

Why play Sink Hole when you can play Smallpox (much better against Fetchlands)?

Curious on this point too.  Smallpox seems like a great answer if you are mono-black... works fine with Bitterblossom, isn't stalled by fetchlands, and does the things Cruel Edict does. 

As far as land goes, I've started using Dakmor Salvage + Raven's Crime in decks to be able to discard each turn.  Creatures, well you don't really run a high density so that shouldn't be too much of an issue.  You could also run things like Factories to avoid the sacrifice cost and still have a beater.