Guttural Response Or Pyroblast In Belcher? (Other Belcher Q's)

[TheBigShow]

i'm torn between the almost colorless casting cost of response and the storm creation ability/versaility of pyroblast.  response is obviously better the more chrome moxes u play, right?  last night, i could have killed for a pyroblast staring down at a meddling mage, however.  what is your guys' opinions?  thanks.

[hauntedechos]

Though I think this post could be elsewhere on the boards:  I would have to go with blasts.  If you look at the recent win with Steve Menendian's christmas beats list at the hands of Troy, you will see that the ability for a deck not running force/drains/duress effects really needs blasts to counter and protect.

I'm not a Belcher player and I've never even tried to build it, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt I suppose.

Haunted.

[TheBigShow]

forgot about that deck.  yeah, 4 md blasts, plus 3 reb's in the side.

[Epyonoo7]

In my experience Guttural Response has been pretty terrible. You definitely want the versatility of pyroblast. Aside from destroying a pesky meddling mage, countering an opposing tinker or tezzeret can be game breaking.

[GrandpaBelcher]

It's metagame dependent.

Pyroblast is better maindeck against Tezzeret and Painter decks and can handle less frequent appearances by Trinket Mage, Meddling Mage, Counterbalance, and Tinker and Timetwister.  Any of those can shut Belcher down, so being able to counter or destroy them might mean the difference between a win and a loss.  Plus, it handles everything Guttural Response can counter.

Guttural Response is easier to play and faster since you have eight Spirit Guides and it goes nicely under a Chrome Mox when necessary.  It still counters Force of Will, Echoing Truth, Ancestral Recall, Thirst for Knowledge, and Mystical Tutor, any of which can be worth countering.

Last time I played, I ran four maindeck Guttural Responses and two sideboard Pyroblasts because Guttural Response is better against Force of Will, which is the biggest concern in game one.  Against things like TPS and Tezzeret, I would side out a Guttural Response and bring in the two Pyroblasts to give myself a 3 Guttural Response, 2 Pyroblast mix, more counters to stop Forces and to give myself a shot against one of their threats if the game went long.  Most decks' sideboards will make them slower against Belcher, so this seems to be a logical plan and has worked in the past.

That said, if I were to play in a tournament tomorrow, I would probably just maindeck Pyroblasts.  Tezzeret and TPS are just too popular to ignore, so you need to be prepared game one.

I don't know what your metagame is, so you'll ultimately have to make your own decision.  And building storm is NOT a consideration for running Pyroblast.  It comes up too infrequently to matter, and if you're playing against a non-blue deck you side them out anyway.

[TheBigShow]

good info; thanks, again.

side q: does 2-color (rg) belcher run manamorphose?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Here's the list I've been playing:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Tinker
1x Time Twister

4x Goblin Welder
4x Guttural Response
4x Manamorphose
4x Street Wraith

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
3x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Channel
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith

Sideboard
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Storm Entity
2x Pyroblast
1x Gaea's Blessing

So, yes.  I use it to play Tinker and Twister.

Edit: The list I c/p'd didn't have Street Wraith.

[Oath of Happy]

Here's the list I've been playing:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
1x Memory Jar
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Tinker
1x Time Twister

4x Goblin Welder
4x Guttural Response
4x Manamorphose

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
3x Chrome Mox
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lion’s Eye Diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Channel
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Grim Monolith

Sideboard
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Storm Entity
2x Pyroblast
1x Gaea's Blessing

So, yes.  I use it to play Tinker and Twister.

Why no Land Grant for Taiga or Taiga+Trop?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Here's the list I've been playing:

Why no Land Grant for Taiga or Taiga+Trop?

The drawback of showing your hand to your opponent is significant in a combo deck, especially one as one-shot as Belcher.  You might be able to play through a Force of Will on Belcher by making five red mana for Pyroblast backup, but when your opponent sees that plan and counters your mana source you're still sunk.

The unrestriction allowed two-color Belcher decks to drop the lands and the Land Grants with them.  I haven't missed them, even after adding Tinker and Twister.  I do waver between 4x Chrome Mox and 3x Chrome Mox, 1x Grim Monolith since opening a hand with double Chrome Mox can be pretty rough at times.

[icy_triskelion]

I like running 4 Pyroblast over 4 Guttural Response mainly because if you know your opponent in not playing blue(such as Ichorid or Gobs game one), Pyroblast can be used to ramp up you storm count for ETW.

[TheBigShow]

if i wasn't powerless (puts flamesuit on), i would definitely think about removing the land grant/taiga suite.

unfortunately, the closest thing i have to a metagame is looking on deckcheck.

browsing through the evolution of belcher a bit, looks like manamorphose has definitely replaced the chromatic artifacts, right?  what about serum powder?  i see that popping up a bit.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Playing powerless is now doable thanks to Chrome Mox, though you're absolutely right that Land Grant is necessary.  There's a thread on it here from a few months ago:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36527.0

You're right on the removal of Chromatic Sphere and Star.  I doubt they would get played anymore even in a three or four colored list.

I played with Serum Powder for a couple of months and came to the conclusion that it's terrible.  You'd think it would be good because you want to win first turn and Serum Powder sets you up for that with free draw sevens.  That doesn't quite work out, though.  Obviously you want to end the game as quickly as possible, but in the eventuality that you don't, Serum Powder is the worst topdeck imaginable.  I would rather draw Grizzly Bears.  I haven't seen anybody advocate Serum Powder for a long period of time, either, so my conclusion is that people who suggest it test it and reject it.

[TheBigShow]

nice thread.  i swear i didn't see that when i searched.

tell me if i'm wrong, but manamorphose and street wraiths seem to complicate parising for me.  i think i'd almost rather see the 7 cards i have instead of 6 + a street wraith.

[GrandpaBelcher]

tell me if i'm wrong, but manamorphose and street wraiths seem to complicate parising for me.  i think i'd almost rather see the 7 cards i have instead of 6 + a street wraith.

They do, but it's something you get used to as you see more opening hands.  Belcher is an easy deck to goldfish and project results onto a hypothetical game (e.g. I opened the game with an Empty the Warrens for six guys, but I still have a Pyroblast in hand - I can probably pull out that win; or, I opened the game with Belcher but didn't draw activation mana for another five turns - that's probably a loss).  Plus, the deck is pretty consistently built, so you can guage how likely you are to draw what you need based on the cantrips in hand.  Usually, you figure you're going to draw a mana source (32/60 based on my list) and go with that.  You don't count on drawing into a win condition, and mulligan aggressively.  Just believe in the Heart of the Cards, Yu-Gi.

I like running 4 Pyroblast over 4 Guttural Response mainly because if you know your opponent in not playing blue(such as Ichorid or Gobs game one), Pyroblast can be used to ramp up you storm count for ETW.

Hey Icy, sorry I missed your post earlier.  Building storm with Pyroblast usually isn't a consideration for me, but since you play in Workshop City, Cleveland, Ohio, your priorities are probably a little different.  Have you considered maindecking Desperate Rituals over Pyroblasts and going aggro-mode in game one?

[IndykidVago]

@ Lochinvar81, When playing casually, I've had a few people choose to draw instead of play. Is this a fluke, or is there a bit of merit into the extra cards in an all-in deck.

And by the way, they know me pretty well and know that the deck I was playing against them had Force in it.

[TheBigShow]

i see gamble got removed, too...

[TheBigShow]

with 6 slots left, do i run 4 wraiths and 2 manamorphose, 3 and 3, or 2 and 4?  2-color, btw.

[GrandpaBelcher]

@ Lochinvar81, When playing casually, I've had a few people choose to draw instead of play. Is this a fluke, or is there a bit of merit into the extra cards in an all-in deck.

And by the way, they know me pretty well and know that the deck I was playing against them had Force in it.

I've tried this before.  It's ballsy, but it can make a difference.  At this point, I can say that I don't mind being on the draw (except against Workshops) but I won't knowingly put myself in that position.

The extra card can make a difference as it might be that extra protection spell or backup win condition that you needed to solidify a good postion.  You can also learn more about your opponent's deck and maybe have him start down a path that doesn't involve stopping your win (e.g. Merchant Scroll for Ancestral instead of Echoing Truth).  Plus it's certainly an unexpected tactic that can throw your opponent off balance.

At the same time, you have to worry about them playing Duress or Thoughtseize on their turn or playing Mystical or Vampiric Tutor for some answer card at the end of yours.  They have also had an extra turn of mana development, which means they might be able to Demonic Tutor and play whatever they get right away or dig for some extra cards withThirst for Knowledge or just get the power-up and win the game with Tezzeret.  And if you let them go first and are then forced into a mediocre hand, they'll have Mana Drain up for whatever you do on your second turn.

It's possible there are still decks that choosing to draw against is worthwhile (I had good success against Keeper with this), but I don't think it's worth it without really knowing what and how your opponent is playing.

with 6 slots left, do i run 4 wraiths and 2 manamorphose, 3 and 3, or 2 and 4?  2-color, btw.

I would run 4x Street Wraith since your life is mostly irrelevant and it cycles uncounterably for free, especially in a two-color build.

[icy_triskelion]

@ Lochinvar81, I usually run those side board due to Workshops, about 3 of them with 3 Price of Progress, 3 Pithing Needle, 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, 3 Tormod's Crypt.

[Harlequin]

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
3x Chrome Mox

I would definately go with Gutteral Response in this deck over Pyroblast.  With the way the deck is built, it seems like you could get into a situation where either Green or Red is more important.  Gutteral Response gives you the ability to decide which color is stronger and therefore use either Spirit Guide to protect your win.  Pyro puts more strain on your SSG's.  Where the deck you posted looks like SSGs are already prime, and ESG is more of a back-up.  Which would make me think you'd want the option to pitch green to protect against froce.

[GrandpaBelcher]

@Harlequin - Good call on straining the manabase.  Being castable off green is especially helpful on the draw and when you're in topdeck mode after having played Belcher or Empty the Warrens.  Any spirit guide you draw will turn Guttural Response into Force of Will.  At the same time, most of the acceleration in the deck except for ESG produces red mana, so that's often what you're left with after playing your threat on turn one and that's why Pyroblast is playable.  Before Guttural Response was printed and Chrome Mox was unrestricted, I had Pyroblasts maindeck and didn't have too many problems playing them.

Another thing that might get asked is, "Why no Pact of Negation?"  Obviously Pact puts zero strain on the manabase and can be imprinted to make casting Tinker and Twister easier.  However, there would be many times where the drawback on pact would make it unusable.  Attacking with Empty the Warrens is obviously not a one-turn deal.  And often the deck has to play a turn one Belcher and wait to draw the mana it needs to activate.  Pact has really never been an option for this build.