Tolarian Academy for Current Type 1

[AshThaReaper804]

I'm opening a new thread for advice on this deck. It utilizes the old Candelabra/Capsize/Academy combo to make infinite mana. It also includes the forgotten Power Artifact/Stroke of Genius/Grim Monolith combo to create and extra win condition. The Time Vault/ Voltaic Key combo is also fitting for this deck so I included that as well. This is a functional 24 proxy deck for me right now. I will list the proxies beside the card name. If you can offer any creative criticism, feel free to do so. Try it out if you like and let me know where I can change things to speed it up.

Hate Yo Face.Deck
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Main Deck:
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Artifacts:
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby (proxy)
1 Mox Pearl (proxy)
1 Mox Sapphire (proxy)
1 Mox Jet (proxy)
1 Mox Emerald (proxy)
2 Mox Diamond (proxies)
1 Black Lotus (proxy)
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Time Vault (proxy)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds (proxies)
2 Scroll Rack
2 Voltaic Key
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Helm Of Awakening
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Blue:
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall (proxy)
1 Turnabout
1 Timetwister
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Windfall
2 Impulse
2 Meditate
2 Stroke of Genius
2 Capsize
3 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will (3 proxies)
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Green:
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Crop Rotation
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Red:
Wheel of Fortune (proxy)
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Lands:
3 Wasteland (proxies)
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Seat of Synod
2 tropical Island (proxies)
2 Tolaria West
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Sideboard!!
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Leyline of Singularity
3 Echoing Truth
1 Power Artifact
1 Frantic Search
3 Pithing Needle (proxies)
1 Time Spiral
1 Brainstorm
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A typical hand consists of lots of artifacts and an Academy. My best hands include Sol Ring, Mana Vault, and Lotus Petal for quick easy Sylvan Scrying or Crop Rotation. The deck will not function properly without an opening hand Academy or a way to get to it by turn 1. If your Academy gets destroyed, dig for the Time Vault while Capsizing permanents away. A good player will look at this deck as a fun deck and not a competitive one, but I see it as both, call me a bad player if you like. This particular build tests well against Sphere decks, Shop Aggro, Servant Combo, Ichorid, and Tezzerator style decks. It's a little slow if you don't have an Academy so again, get one in your opening hand or mulligan.

[John Jones]

I think this decks screams for mana drain considering your win conditions are all pretty good drain sinks.

I would cut the timespirals as they would be pretty hard to resolve.
I think you can go down to one capsize and run an echoing truth.
Tezzeret seems good in here.

Umm, I suggest testing this a lot.

[AshThaReaper804]

The Time Spiral is kinda hard to resolve, but once you hit the burst of mana with Academy it is no problem. I may go down to 2, the Capsize is necessary as a 2 of in case you must pitch one to a force. Drain would be helpful I just can't afford it right now, in the event I could proxy it I would. My goal is to have this at 10 proxies in 2 months, which wont be hard I work a lot.
I have done a month of testing already, though my posts don't look so, I have spent many years with Academy as an idea, I've made many models, but this one works best with the recent un-restrictions of Time Spiral, Volt Key, Mox Diamond ,and Chrome Mox. Now is the time for Academy to be rebuilt and I want to lead the revival.
I believe in a main deck power artifact at this point for the purpose of having the extra win every game. The main deck Echoing Truth is becoming more and more necessary to win the Ichorid match, as well as the storm match. Thanks for your ideas, I would like to work with Tezzeret but I think it's too slow with so many pieces needed to finishes combos quickly.

[bluemage55]

The reason those old combos are no longer used is because they are no longer efficient. 

If you're going to play a combo that requires a bunch of mana and multiple cards to pull off, why not just play Painter or Time Vault combo and have a lot fewer dead cards as well as an easier combo to assemble?  Or why not play Tezzeret?  Why generate infinite mana when you can just win with 10 or less storm?

If you want this deck to succeed, you're going to have to find some sort of niche for it.  What can an Academy deck do more effectively than any other deck?  If you cannot come up with a legitimate answer for that, then an Academy deck isn't going to work.  If you can, then you need to build your deck around that particular game plan.

At the moment, your deck is not a deck for the current Vintage.  It's a deck that's been outdated for years.

Finally, you should not have opened a new thread.  You already have not one, but two threads on this in the Improvement forum, which is where it belongs.

[Purple Hat]

Thanks for your ideas, I would like to work with Tezzeret but I think it's too slow with so many pieces needed to finishes combos quickly.

Tezzeret is too slow and difficult to assemble but Academy, a 3 card combo relying entirely on a restricted card and a card that does nothing on it's own that doesn't win the game on the spot by itself, isn't? I find this nearly impossible to believe.  Even with unrestricted Academy I can't see this combo being viable in modern vintage.  Infinite mana combos just aren't good enough.  The only one I can think of that "works" is Dragon, and it's not great right now either.

[AshThaReaper804]

The Academy combo is my niche, I've spent a lot of time rebuilding and reinventing it for modern vintage, if not only for myself, but for other people who like a complex and fun deck to play, not just a turn 1/2 combo like Servant or Time Vault.
Competitively speaking, this deck will stomp most vintage builds as long as you have the Academy. The mana base is near perfect with all the artifact power. Most of the time I was turn 3 or 4ing the games, but now it's advanced to a 20 or so % chance of a turn 2 win. I'm still developing but I also have a lot of time playing with this deck against the top vintage builds.
Academy makes mana better than other decks, that's its advantage, the reason why it's restricted, and the reason why it is the most powerful land card ever made as far as I'm concerned. All these things lead me to believe it is more viable than not. The game plan here is to restart the game with draw 7's and use any kill condition to win, as many as that are available in this deck, you should have no problems.

[bluemage55]

The Academy combo is my niche, I've spent a lot of time rebuilding and reinventing it for modern vintage, if not only for myself, but for other people who like a complex and fun deck to play, not just a turn 1/2 combo like Servant or Time Vault.

Just because you like to play a deck doesn't mean it has a viable niche in competitive Vintage, nor does it mean that it belongs in the Open discussion forum.

Competitively speaking, this deck will stomp most vintage builds as long as you have the Academy.

That's a ridiculous assertion, considering how easily your deck rolls over to disruption, be it Duress, Chalice, Null Rod, Wasteland, or countermagic.  Even if it were true, counting on seeing a single restricted card in your opening hand isn't exactly a good idea.

The mana base is near perfect with all the artifact power.

For a modern competitive Vintage deck, relying on a lot of artifact mana is considered a bad thing, not "perfect".  It just means Chalice, Sphere, Null Rod, and Gorilla Shaman hate you out that much easier.

Most of the time I was turn 3 or 4ing the games, but now it's advanced to a 20 or so % chance of a turn 2 win. I'm still developing but I also have a lot of time playing with this deck against the top vintage builds.

Goldfishing without an opponent is meaningless unless you goldfish as if you faced disruption.  For example, it's easy to overinflate your results by replacing Duress and FoW with acceleration.  In reality, though, most opponents will be disrupting you from Turn 1 onward.

Academy makes mana better than other decks, that's its advantage, the reason why it's restricted, and the reason why it is the most powerful land card ever made as far as I'm concerned.

Academy makes mana better than other decks in a vacuum and when you actually draw it, not all the time in a real game.

All these things lead me to believe it is more viable than not.

That belief is unfounded and based upon improper testing.

The game plan here is to restart the game with draw 7's and use any kill condition to win, as many as that are available in this deck, you should have no problems.

You mean, like TPS except worse?

[AshThaReaper804]

First of all I compliment you on your use of the quote, I'm not quite there yet. You sound like a hater sir, and TPS is nothing like this deck, been there and seen that. Your null rods don't scare me, echoing truth and capsize say no to that garbage. Your gorilla shaman will never get a chance to activate because you will only have 3 mana before i combo off. Good luck deciding which of the 20 or so artifacts I'm gonna have on the table to destroy. This article does belong here, a real blue magician would love to play something like this, however in a shop fueled environment I can see where I will receive criticism. You can't duress an academy away, nor can chalice affect it, nor will null rod, and I'll waste your wasteland before it has a chance to bother me. Plus I run crucible, good luck getting 6 mana to destroy it with your Gorilla Shaman. Artifact power rules, quit hating. And I do Goldfish with imaginary disruption, you can't stop me... need I repeat this... I do always draw an Academy, I am lucky my deck loves me, and when I don't I will mulligan to 5 cards if I have to to get it, if I even need to considering my land search capabilities, all 4 of them. And as far as any of my personal opinions being unfounded, look in the mirror and hate on that, not my skills as a player.

[TinkerAcademy91]

I'm not going to get into the middle of this argument but I would like to comment on one point by bluemage55 that I see a lot from people. ...."nor does it mean that it belongs in the Open discussion forum." I'm not sure why people feel compelled to judge whether or not any deck list is allowed to be discussed. If you don't like someone's ideas, then just don't reply. There are plenty of articles on hear to read and comment on if you don't like one deck list.

[bluemage55]

First of all I compliment you on your use of the quote, I'm not quite there yet. You sound like a hater sir, and TPS is nothing like this deck, been there and seen that. Your null rods don't scare me, echoing truth and capsize say no to that garbage. Your gorilla shaman will never get a chance to activate because you will only have 3 mana before i combo off. Good luck deciding which of the 20 or so artifacts I'm gonna have on the table to destroy. This article does belong here, a real blue magician would love to play something like this, however in a shop fueled environment I can see where I will receive criticism. You can't duress an academy away, nor can chalice affect it, nor will null rod, and I'll waste your wasteland before it has a chance to bother me. Plus I run crucible, good luck getting 6 mana to destroy it with your Gorilla Shaman. Artifact power rules, quit hating. And I do Goldfish with imaginary disruption, you can't stop me... need I repeat this... I do always draw an Academy, I am lucky my deck loves me, and when I don't I will mulligan to 5 cards if I have to to get it, if I even need to considering my land search capabilities, all 4 of them. And as far as any of my personal opinions being unfounded, look in the mirror and hate on that, not my skills as a player.

I'd respond to this, but I prefer to see if there's a moderator response before I needlessly waste my time.

I'm not going to get into the middle of this argument but I would like to comment on one point by bluemage55 that I see a lot from people. ...."nor does it mean that it belongs in the Open discussion forum." I'm not sure why people feel compelled to judge whether or not any deck list is allowed to be discussed. If you don't like someone's ideas, then just don't reply. There are plenty of articles on hear to read and comment on if you don't like one deck list.

I'm not sure why you feel compelled to judge whether criticism is allowed.

Please read the site rules as well as the thread on what TMD is about.  I won't bother to reply when it's already been answered:

TMD works just fine, precisely because of the perceived "elitist" attitudes. The childish behaviors and the labelling of TMD members almost exclusively stems from new posters either violating site rules or posting in order to receive congratulatory pats on the back or recognition. When they receive criticism, they take it personally and they end up here or other forums, bemoaning how TMD "stifles their innovation" or the "elitism" discourages them.

TOUGH.

TMD isn't a place for a player to amaze everyone with their "brilliance" or deckbuilding "prowess" free from any exposure to criticism. It is a site that puts ideas to a very harsh test, and if people don't appreciate why that is a very good thing, then they should be staying off the forums. And if we're going to label anything as childish, it is the lashing back after any sort of success as some sort of "vindication" against the big, bad, mean TMD regulars who "put the idea down" initially. Get over yourselves people and stop playing the victim. The fact that ideas are not accepted on faith isn't a knock against the vintage TMD community; the onus is always on the poster of said idea to give sufficient evidence that an idea is sound. And if they want to explore untested ideas or do a little brainstorming, we have an entire subforum devoted to that.

[coldcrow]

I was wondering why a deck dedicated to a restricted card is running only 2 direct tutors for it. also I question the ability to "dig" for vault while spending 6 mana per turn to use capsize repeatedly. Basically there are only 6 cards in this deck dealing with threats (FoW,overcosted boomerang) while there are two 2+ card combos with no direct tutors for them. All other means of searching are either dig or draw 7. Means it will rely totally on the gamble. I understand that this is a budget (yours) deck, but why do you insist on it being tournament worthy?

[chrissss]

What about Dream halls? it makes time spiral amazing once it hits, plus it turns all your other counterspells into force of wills.

One thing you shouldn't forget, your opponent might also have an accedemy in play, destroying both lands.

Other than that, I do admire the new deck build courage, I was working on a similair deck to yours but found that a time spiral hardly ever comes through.

Have you tested it versus any good decks btw?

[AshThaReaper804]

I was wondering why a deck dedicated to a restricted card is running only 2 direct tutors for it. also I question the ability to "dig" for vault while spending 6 mana per turn to use capsize repeatedly. Basically there are only 6 cards in this deck dealing with threats (FoW,overcosted boomerang) while there are two 2+ card combos with no direct tutors for them. All other means of searching are either dig or draw 7. Means it will rely totally on the gamble. I understand that this is a budget (yours) deck, but why do you insist on it being tournament worthy?

Okay direct search is a problem, the best land search is green, but the best direct is black. Use of Mox Diamond is about my only plan of getting the 5 color mana I need, I'd thought about Glimmervoid to make it easier but I figured that was a little risky compared to Diamond. The Capsize costs 5 you seemed to have missed the Helm of Awakening , which reduces the cost. I like to gamble a play, it's worth the risk when you know you're count and can trace back what cards are still in your deck. And as far as tournament worthy goes, this deck is both casual and meant for stomping your faces in tournament play. It's only so competitive against certain artifact hating decks, but against everything else that doesn't run a whole lot of counter cause it's not blue, it does fine. The point of all decks, in my opinion, is to go to a competitive level. Even if it wont win the tournament, there is such a place as 2nd.
To the non hater...
I thought about Dream Halls, I can get 5 mana up easy as you probably know, but because I run so few blue spells now, I am having trouble finding things to pitch to Force of Will. So Dream Halls to me does not seem viable right now. The balance of blue is very hard to keep, when inserting utility to speed up the deck. I am playing nightly against a friend who runs several different "good" decks. He plays a blue/black Servant build that utilizes duress, extirpate, ghost quarter, and wasteland against my build, but the matches are 50/50 with my use of Pithing Needle, Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Crucible for the continual defensive land destruction. I hold my Academy for up to 3 turns even if I had it turn one, it's a matter of knowing when to put it out and go off. Being Duressed or Thoughtsiezed is inevitable, right? So worry not about your opening hand if you are going turn 2, worry about turn 2 and 3 plays more, and be sure the Academy is in hand or that you have a tutor.
Luck is a huge part of this game, we all know that, you can not defend an argument with luck, but I can say I would rather rely on luck, than rely on multiple copies that become dead.

[AshThaReaper804]

Forgot to mention with all the hate floating around that I made some changes. I added Ancient Tombs to the main board removing Seat of Synod. 1 Capsize and 1 Stroke came out for 2 Echoing Truths. I pulled Windfall for Yawgmoth's Will, and that's about the extent of my changes.
The other day I faced a sweet Tezzeret build, it was net decked, packing Duress, Thoughtsieze, and the Time Vault combo. Plus an added Metal Worker/Staff of Domination/Umbral Mantle combo. The games were about 50/50, being that he packed only Mana Drain and Force. There were games that I most definitely should have picked better hands, but as a casual player I wanted to see what his deck was capable of. A turn 2 Time Vault is unfriendly for sure. But being that I can match that movement, we were pretty much even.

[AshThaReaper804]

Good evening, for those who are still reading, I am still working at my build. The addition of Fastbond is tonight's test run. Fastbond you say? yes Fastbond I say, and an additional Impulse for a little more dig, as well as a Frantic Search. The following items will be removed... Pithing Needle, Mox Jet, and 1 Thoughtcast. I'll be back later to discuss the results.

[AshThaReaper804]

Fastbond and Yawgmoth's Will proved kinda useless, I went back to more Meditate for extra card draw. I have reached my limit with this deck, I like it the way it stands and will probably move on to my next build, which will more than likely be stormish.

[chrissss]

Perhaps also Zuran Orb?

Since you have fastbond and crucible of wolrds + zuran orb = infinite mana and infinite lives.

I know zuran orb can be a wasted card, but it turns all your lands into 2 lives, protects them from wasteland ( well, I mean gives you 2 lives at least) which can give you an extra turn vs oath. also it costs 0 and its another artifact.

[bluemage55]

I have reached my limit with this deck, I like it the way it stands and will probably move on to my next build, which will more than likely be stormish.

A wise decision.  It is good to know that contrary to your inflammatory behavior, you are in fact capable of learning from criticism.

[M.Solymossy]

=the one dude who posted 4 times underneath himself

The Mana Drain's rules are quite clear that if you are going to post after yourself, rather than string double, triple, or *GASP* quad posts, you should edit yours.  It's as easy as finding the edit post button down at the Top of your post.  See it?  Yeah, it's right there... *points*




As for academy, you're running sideways-8 cards to protect Academy, but the problem is you only have one of them.  You're not going to be able to win any games you don't find academy, and while you're busy trying to find yours, I will be key-vaulting you out, casting a Storm10'ed Tendrils, or just all-out obliterating you with dudes. 


Here are reasons your deck is flawed:

(1) Your deck only has 2 dedicated ways to find tolarian academy, other than Tolaria West, which costs one billion mana.

(2a) None of the cards listed below actually help advance your gamestate, they just try to protect your 1 Tolarian Academy.
1 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds

(2b) None of these cards will EVER be effective without Academy
 Time Spiral
 Turnabout
 Capsize
 Candelabra
 Stroke of Terrible


The list could go on and on, but I'd like to ask:  Have you actually played against the top decks in the format, or have you just gold-fished, pretending that they have that one Force of Will to stop you?   And also, have you played against good players, or just your kitchen table buddies?   Something tells me if you played against competent vintage players, you would have thrown this deck in the garbage long ago.


I just can't comprehend how you DONT think Null Rod absolutely bends you over.   You have NO real way to tutor for your capsizes, and the decks that play null rod will back it up with their own forces and duress effects.  4 force of will is NOT enough to compete in this format. 

[bluemage55]

The Mana Drain's rules are quite clear that if you are going to post after yourself, rather than string double, triple, or *GASP* quad posts, you should edit yours.  It's as easy as finding the edit post button down at the Top of your post.  See it?  Yeah, it's right there... *points*

I'm fairly certain that's the least of his problems.  He's violated almost every site rule: poor writing quality, inflammatory posts, and making 3 threads on the same subject (2 in Improvement where they belong, 1 here).  I'm personally just shocked this thread hasn't received moderator attention, given that I've already reported his post.

This could and should have been a PM, especially since it violates the rules about not commenting on site moderation.
-Godder

[Demonic Attorney]

Whoa, I was asleep at the switch on this one.  Verbal warnings to AshThaReaper for flaming and double-posting (one thread in Improvement should never generate a duplicate in Open), and Soly for flaming (we've been over this).  Thread closed.