[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[vartemis]

Editor's Blurb:

Are Proxies hurting Vintage tournament attendance? In today’s article, Ben states his argument about why he believes this is the case!

Interesting article.  Are proxies really  causing the decline in attendance, or is it something else?

j

[God_Campbell]

I think it has to do with a lot of people just growing up starting families or what not.

I think with out proxies, Vintage would be in a vegetative state in North America as most of the people that play need the proxies, as they are either college/high school age, or not rich enough to drop 3k on a set of P9.

I know that from getting more people in my area involved with Vintage, allowing them the proxies makes them want to play, and get those cards. I can understand proxying a Black Lotus you own, but then again, half of the fun is having them, it is a sense of completion and I would never sell my power off just because I can proxy the cards, as proxies are ugly and no one wants ugly cards.

I think Star City needs to do a 2500 K Vintage event, People I find like to play for cash, it just seems people don't run events for anything other then cards with Mox in the name.

And as far as sanctioning goes, I was at Vintage champs, and I did not even care it was sanctioned, more so I could give to S@!t$ 's about rankings as they are meaningless anyways and think most feel the same so it is a non concern as far as I am concerned. Vintage champs is hurt by being proxy free, as people like to play a fun and competitive deck, something R/G beats and Fish are not always able to be.

When me and my friends play, we have to travel at least 3 hours to play in Southern Ontario, and we can get a decent turn out of around 30-50 depending on the prizes or what not, and I think for most, it is not the actual distance, but the prize support and what people feel is worth it to them as far as cost/benefit or EV.

Overall though I appreciate your time that was spent on this article Ben, I feel it is the single most important piece you have done in this series as it does deal with value and also a major point in vintage with regards to the North American downturn in attendance.

[Canadian_Pride]

the article was interesting, but it in no way proves that the reason Europe has a higher attendance is due to the lack of proxies.  It suggests that it would not be for infrastructure reasons, but it could just be that we aren't as interested in vintage over here. The article displays a correlation only, and offers no way to prove any type of a cause and effect relationship. (infrastructure and proxies are not the only two variables, so he cannot say proxies are the cause by default if we conclude infrastructure is not the reason)

[Stormanimagus]

I think it has to do with a lot of people just growing up starting families or what not.

I think with out proxies, Vintage would be in a vegetative state in North America as most of the people that play need the proxies, as they are either college/high school age, or not rich enough to drop 3k on a set of P9.

I know that from getting more people in my area involved with Vintage, allowing them the proxies makes them want to play, and get those cards. I can understand proxying a Black Lotus you own, but then again, half of the fun is having them, it is a sense of completion and I would never sell my power off just because I can proxy the cards, as proxies are ugly and no one wants ugly cards.

I think Star City needs to do a 2500 K Vintage event, People I find like to play for cash, it just seems people don't run events for anything other then cards.

I do think there is some truth to all these comments, but I'd like to expand on it a bit as a former Vintage goer who now tries to make 1-2 events a year if I can. I can say that I do not own power 9 and probably never will. Magic just isn't a high enough priority to me.

Here's the dilemma. I see that we have two alternatives to proxies:

1. Stephen Menendian has offered up some pretty savage "budget" decks of late that prey on fully powered decks. Us "non-power owners" could just suck it up and play a good budget list and hope for the best. However, I'd personally be saddened by that because I wouldn't be able to play the deck I've basically played forever (storm combo TPS) and I don't think that more fishy decks quite fit my playstyle. Vintage is about having the OPTION to play every card ever printed, and I think proxies are a fair way to make that more realistic when you have single cards costing in the 300-500 dollar range.

2. Reprint Power 9 in a restricted fashion. Do not allow them in Standard, Extended or Legacy tournaments, but just for Vintage. Part of the problem is that there simply are not enough copies of power 9 to go around. If you want to increase the quality and quantity of competition more people have to have the option to run power 9 and the only way to do that is with some sort fo reprint. This would be extremely bold from a magic economist standpoint, but I don't think the rarity of the original power nine as collector's items would be ruined. The incentive for tournaments would then simply have to be money prizes and not power 9 as the functional value of the cards would decrease.

Both of these options seem viable, and certainly the DCI could try sanctioning more "no proxy" Vintage events, but I think the more bold move towards reprint would also be an interesting alternative.

Those are my thoughts for now.

[Smmenen]

I thought his article was very persuasive, and I can't really see anything in it to disagree with, at least in terms of his analysis.   

His summary is pretty much accurate:
"And to me, the problems of devaluation, disaffection, disassociation, and disenfranchisement are created by the use of proxies, leaving a long-term decline in the format’s success. In the short term they were supposed to bring people into the format. I fear that, in the long term, they may have done more harm than good."

The question then becomes: well, ok, if you are right Ben, what do we DO about it?   The TO who says: no proxies will lose attendance, period.  It might help Vintage in the long run.   I think the solution is to offer complex prize packages that award players prizes for placing well without power, like they do in Europe.   

[Campee]

I don't see how proxies could be hurting vintage. Over half of the people that play in tournaments in my area wouldn't be able to play if they couldn't use proxies. It would turn the tournaments into "he who spends the most money wins". Attendance would decline, causing prize support to decline, which would cause attendance to decline even more until the tournaments just got cancelled.

They're never going to reprint these cards. Their prices just keep going up year after year. It's a great format and proxies let people enjoy it without plunking down the cost of a used car.

Actually, I'll be playing in a "no proxies" vintage tournament at GP LA this weekend and I'm kind of curious what the turnout/decks will be like and if people will try to play without power if they don't have any. I guess they can just play elves or a reallllly slow version of Dredge.

[Smmenen]

Over half of the people that play in tournaments in my area wouldn't be able to play if they couldn't use proxies.

No doubt, but his argument acknowledges that.   The distinction he makes is between long term versus short term.

Think about this: before the rise of proxies, Mox prizes were actually sought after so that people could trade and use them.  Nowadays, Black Lotus goes straight to ebay.   

Proxies probably helped Vintage in the short term, but now, 6 years later, the short term has passed. 

[LotusHead]

Are proxies hurting Vintage?

Out here, I can play with no proxies (sub-optimal, but I can compete), but that would exclude others from joining in.

Team Vacaville has had about 8-10 memebers who've shown up to tournies, all but 1 of which NEED proxies to have any kind of functional deck.

But my reason for chiming in here, is why is THIS article premium? Is it random?  It seems to me community articles should be free.

[/rant on premium issue]

[The Wolf]

I thought his article was very persuasive, and I can't really see anything in it to disagree with, at least in terms of his analysis.   

I am very surprised by this.  You are usually so focused on in depth analysis and this article lacks that.  I have another analysis:  People in Europe eat more apples then people in the US.  US apples are wax coated to make them shine more.  Therefore, wax on the apples makes them less appealing. 

My point is that he mentions a point, and gives examples of why this might cause the reaction, but there is no proof.  He may be right, but this article does nothing to support his case IMO.  Most people I know test with proxies, including Extended / Type 2 players.  There just not that big a deal. 

There is no mention of community building at all in this article.  Small magic formats are all about the community bringing in new players AKA EDH.  The vintage community has always been pretty exclusive, at least in the US.  The only tourneys available are expensive and new players are destroyed by better players with real decks and sent packing.  Without small tournaments, a format can not be maintained.  This is where new players are brought in.  People stop playing and the base dissipates. 

Lastly, in every other format, prize is based on attendance.  The idea of a mox tournament is dumb because its locking in a prize before you know attendance, and the novelty wore off the vintage community about 5 years ago.  If proxies are damaging value of power is another argument.  The prize structure of vintage tournaments is flawed.  Some TOs adjust prize up if more people show up.  Some don't.

Interest in vintage was dropping.  Power value started to slip.  Paying 30 Dollars to play in a Starcity P9 tourney became more of a rip off then it already was because the prize value was decreasing.  They did nothing to change that (As far as i know).  Attendance dropped. 

[tito del monte]

I'm afraid I don't have Premium so I can't comment on the content of the article, but I'm replying mainly out of shock at this discussion - I live in the world's ultimate Vintage backwater (the UK - see my thread in the community forum for proof) and I guess take for granted that the US will always have a strong Vintage scene.

I'm glad then that there is discussion going on about how the future of the format can be best preserved - I would say as an outsider, please never take the health of your Vintage community for granted - it seems like Mecca for me. The UK will never have a Vintage scene without proxies.

I'm wondering if anyone on the boards who is close to Wizards has heard anything even vaguely progressive from them about trying to preserve Vintage? to me, it is completely synonymous with Magic, and I guess that's the same for most TMD users.. but I fear that any hope of reprints or somehow allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments will never ever happen. As a company who has to shift new cards, they have no interest in encouraging the take-up of Vintage. Surely if you start playing Vintage you would never go back to Standard.. the more people that play our format, the less new cards they will sell. It doesn't seem to add up :/

I think Smmenen's remark about rewarding players who don't have access to power at tournaments is a good one, but ultimately people do want to be able to play competitive decks in a meaningful Vintage metagame. Personally, I would like to see Wizards produce some kind of official proxy pack of the power 9 that costs $20 or something, has Magic backs with plain white faces with no illus just text and you order it straight from them, and they can used in sanctioned tournaments, and why not one day a vintage pro-tour. I think that would keep the number of proxies per deck down, maintain the value of genuine power, preserve the desirability of other Vintage staples such as drains, workshops and bazaars, yet still make the format accessible.

Sadly, it will never happen

And meanwhile, in the UK, I guess I'm going to have to start playing Legacy. Unless of course any single women are reading this and can offer marriage and a green card.

[BruiZar]

I think TO's need to require their players to register which cards they proxy. It is only then that we can seriously look into the ramnifications that proxies have. I am only halfpowered but find myself proxying small cards that I just can't bother to obtain. if I can't be bothered obtaining certain cards, I am sure nonpowered players too find themselves not bothering to obtain cards especially if the price to do so is very high.

There is no practical reason to chase power. After you've been able to play with power a few times, you've seen it and you move on.. That is, unless you actually own power and went out of your way to getting it by making a large investment in these cards. Then you persevere in the format.

It's analogous with software pirating. If you can download 10 PC games every day without paying for them, the majority of people will play these games only a few times before throwing them off their computers. If you paid 50 euro for the game, you'll make the effort to get immersed in the story and try to overcome the games obstacles instead of thinking, meh next.

This is the reason why I agree that proxies have a detrimental long term effect.

[tito del monte]

@BruiZar
I liked your analogy and the idea of registering what cards are being proxied - perhaps a good solution to both these problems would be to charge entrance per proxy at tournaments.

[waywreth]

I've played Magic for a fairly long time.  I've never had any power, and don't have the available funds to purchase them.  I think this is the case for many people, especially those of us that started Magic when it started and didn't get power then, as we are no longer in the disposable income stage of our lives.  We have families, homes, or are saving for things.  While I can swing an entry fee to a vintage event, I would in no way play in events if proxies weren't allowed.  It would feel like bringing a knife to a gun fight (my analogy for an unpowered deck).  I also see events, much like the Weekly all proxy ELD event in Bridgewater bringing in new players.  We've had legacy players, or extended players proxy half a dozen cards and sit down and play Vintage for the first time.

I'd also be curious to see how well those unpowered decks in Europe actually do.  Aren't the winners all fully powered?

[Nehptis]

Without proxies the US Vintage attendance rate would drop like a stone.

I've been playing since about 1996 and I OWN Power 9 and beyond.  In the early days there were no proxy events.  As the Vintage format matured into a stable meta the barrier for entry shot way up.  Meaning, gone were the days were one could bring an unpowered Red Burn or Stompy deck and still top 8.  This meant that the same powered players would win event after event.  I know, I was one of them in my local meta.  Skill was 2nd to card quality.

When Proxies entered the format there was an explosion of entry.  It has since balanced itself out like everything always does.  We may even be in a decline today due to the older players having less time to play and the depressed economy.  But, I have no doubt that Vintage would suffer a HUGE exodus if Proxies vanished.

I think the opposite solution should be explored.  Vintage should be a sanctioned Proxy format.   Rules could easily be rendered that would not conflict with Wizards promotion of their sealed packs.  Let's face it, sanctioned tournaments are all about Standard, Draft and Extended.  There is much less interest in Sanctioned Legacy and the almost non-existent Sanctioned Vintage scene.  So, a simple ubiquitous ruling would be something like:
Proxy cards are allowed in ALL Magic formats.  Proxies cannot be used for any set that is currently legal in Extended.  Wizards could actually start printing proxies for use for some of the Vintage and Legacy staples from the older sets.  And Gold bordered cards could be used as proxies.

I see only upside to this.  And I think that with the DCI/Wizards support a snactioned Proxy scene would INCREASE our player pool near and short term.  To collectors, please don’t use the age old argument that proxies would devalue your originals.  How many people have prints of famous works of art in your house, dorm, apartment, etc?  I’m pretty sure the originals still hold their value even though proxies of them have proliferated.

Disclaimer: This solution would probably not cause more Vintage players to buy sealed packs.  Since, most players needing "newer" cards would look to the singles market instead of buying packs.  But, the point is that the Proxy rule would not directly impact Wizards product.  Also, Standard (or Extended) players would not feel slighted by the Proxy rule, because no one can Proxy cards that are from Ext/Standard legal Sets.

[Stormanimagus]

Without proxies the US Vintage attendance rate would drop like a stone.

I've been playing since about 1996 and I OWN Power 9 and beyond.  In the early days there were no proxy events.  As the Vintage format matured into a stable meta the barrier for entry shot way up.  Meaning, gone were the days were one could bring an unpowered Red Burn or Stompy deck and still top 8.  This meant that the same powered players would win event after event.  I know, I was one of them in my local meta.  Skill was 2nd to card quality.

When Proxies entered the format there was an explosion of entry.  It has since balanced itself out like everything always does.  We may even be in a decline today due to the older players having less time to play and the depressed economy.  But, I have no doubt that Vintage would suffer a HUGE exodus if Proxies vanished.

I think the opposite solution should be explored.  Vintage should be a sanctioned Proxy format.   Rules could easily be rendered that would not conflict with Wizards promotion of their sealed packs.  Let's face it, sanctioned tournaments are all about Standard, Draft and Extended.  There is much less interest in Sanctioned Legacy and the almost non-existent Sanctioned Vintage scene.  So, a simple ubiquitous ruling would be something like:
Proxy cards are allowed in ALL Magic formats.  Proxies cannot be used for any set that is currently legal in Extended.  Wizards could actually start printing proxies for use for some of the Vintage and Legacy staples from the older sets.  And Gold bordered cards could be used as proxies.

I see only upside to this.  And I think that with the DCI/Wizards support a snactioned Proxy scene would INCREASE our player pool near and short term.  To collectors, please don’t use the age old argument that proxies would devalue your originals.  How many people have prints of famous works of art in your house, dorm, apartment, etc?  I’m pretty sure the originals still hold their value even though proxies of them have proliferated.

Disclaimer: This solution would probably not cause more Vintage players to buy sealed packs.  Since, most players needing "newer" cards would look to the singles market instead of buying packs.  But, the point is that the Proxy rule would not directly impact Wizards product.  Also, Standard (or Extended) players would not feel slighted by the Proxy rule, because no one can Proxy cards that are from Ext/Standard legal Sets.

I like this idea a lot. And I want to try to sum up a couple things I think people have been pointing two.

I don't think it's fair to blame proxies for Vintage's attendance problems. There has to be an interest in the format born of an image that the format is fair, has good prize structure, and has a sense of officiality that comes with being sanctioned by the DCI. Right now Vintage has this bizarre feeling of being the inbred stepchild of Wizards: the branch they just want to forget about. When the format is not treated with respect by the folks who should be the biggest proponents, that does not inspire confidence in a potential player base. Most of the standard/extended players I've ever talked to who MIGHT be interested in Vintage think it's silly that there are no sanctioned Vintage events and thus, take it less seriously. If you don't take a format seriously and don't think there's legitimate prize structure and competition out there then you'll probably just stick with Standard and Extended, which are.

Now I will say that Stephen Menendian has done more than anyone else to promote the format. He's come up with countless awesome budget decks, and provides insight in to what makes Vintage special: the fact that you can play any card (besides ante cards) EVER PRINTED. The fact that so many decisions that affect the outcome of the game are packed in to the first 2-3 turns, and the fact that the attack step is rarely the all important one make Vintage exciting and different from any other format.

But it's gonna take more than Stephen Menendian's persuasive powers to exact real change in the Vintage scene. I truly think finding a way to sanction proxied Vintage is the way to go. And 10 seems like a good number. This allows players access to the power 9 + something (Imperial Seal or some other really expensive card) so they can build a truly optimal Vintage deck. The budgets for deck building will still be decently high as duals, fetches and cards like Tarmogoyf still cost a lot of money, but it makes starting in to the format a 200-300 dollar venture and not a 2000-2500 dollar venture.

I truly think this would shake things up a bit, and would allow for a lot of really cool events. Think about this scenario:

FNM can now sanction it's own 10-proxy Vintage events. You now start getting a turn out of 10-20 folks for FNM for Vintage like it used to be a store I'd play at in Poughkeepsie, NY when I attended Vassar. Those sorts of events WORK at getting all sorts of players in to the format. With Sanctioning the players can earn points for their DCI number, and, more importantly, the prize structure can be fair for a 10-20 person event. Let me put this another way:

My father loves online poker, but he's hesitant to buy in to a lot of 100-500 person tourneys because the buy in is more. He IS, however, much more willing to practice with a lot of 9-18 person tourneys, because it is less of a monetary risk, and it's still exciting.

Vintage players just want what my father has. Frequent small level competition to prepare for the occasional large event. Vintage doesn't have that. There are only a very small number of places that run unsanctioned proxy events and the same great Vintage players test with each other by means of these events. If Vintage were sanctioned with proxies, then a ton more FNM opportunities would open up and I think Wizards would see the player pool sky-rocket closer to where Standard and Extended are right now.

Comments?

[chrissss]

I can't read the article because its premium, but

Here in the Benelux, there are hardly any Vintage tournaments, and if there are any, they always allow proxies. I'm not sure whether this is ruining the format, however I know for me personally, I only have mox saphire and emerald, time walk and Ancestral recall . I have pretty much every card for the decks I play, so I have little reason to buy the other moxes and lotus. I will however, because I hate proxies, and I'd like to have power, but if all the vintage tournaments allow 10 proxies, I still have lots of time to gather my power 9 collection.

I do know most people I know that play vintage, hate proxies, and hate the fact they spend 2-3k for power 9, and then lose to people who use all the proxies, and then win the tournament, winning a power9 card in most cases. It's frustrating having invested in a lot of power, and losing to a deck which costs less than one power card ( though FOW and dual lands are pricey, you get my point)

Not to mention the feel of accomplishment is so much smaller if you use proxies. I remember saving for AR, then using it, and every time I got 3 cards for 1 mana I got this feeling of "YEAH BABY THIS CARD ROCKS, WELL WORTH THE MONEY + WIAT" now with the proxies I play with all the cards, and when I got my time walk, it didn't have the same effect, because it was in my deck as a proxy ( though a nice printer proxy may I add)

Also I find proxies very annoying to play against. Paper proxies with bad handwriting is terrible, I have lost games because I didn't realize he had a proxy in play, thinking it was another card. the proxies that WOTC released a while back ( I forgot the name, it was power 9 + library and one foil) they are nice to play against, but most tournaments don't allow these which I think sucks.

Wizards could actually start printing proxies for use for some of the Vintage and Legacy staples from the older sets.  And Gold bordered cards could be used as proxies.

I like this idea, the gold bordered cards from WC decks, I don't mind playing against.

[Nehptis]

I do know most people I know that play vintage, hate proxies, and hate the fact they spend 2-3k for power 9, and then lose to people who use all the proxies, and then win the tournament, winning a power9 card in most cases. It's frustrating having invested in a lot of power, and losing to a deck which costs less than one power card ( though FOW and dual lands are pricey, you get my point)

Why is it frustrating?  If your intention is to compete and win then shouldn't the playing field be level?  And then skill and luck will determine the rest.  But, if your intention is to have the most expensive deck and have superior cards at your disposal compared to other players then sure you'd hate proxies.

Not to mention the feel of accomplishment is so much smaller if you use proxies.

Again why?  Let's use a golf analogy.  You're telling me that if I were to hit a Hole in one with a $500 club signed by Tiger Woods it would be any different than if I hit the same Hole in one with a $10 club that I made in my garage?  Either way the sense of accomplishment is the same.

Also I find proxies very annoying to play against. Paper proxies with bad handwriting is terrible, I have lost games because I didn't realize he had a proxy in play, thinking it was another card.

Then your problem is that you need to pay attention to the game state.  And perhaps you need to suggest that your Tournament Organizers raise their standards for Proxies (e.g., legible handwritting).  Legalizing proxies has nothing to do with your issue.

[benthetenor]

I'll tell you where vintage tournament attendance went. SCG stopped offering tournaments in the Midwest.

SCG Chicago was consistently the most well-attended tournament of the circuit. Without an annual, or at least regular, tournament, a lot of the people I play with have lost the motivation to test or play this format. Something like Legacy which only has a handful of worthwhile events in the Midwest is still infinitely more worth testing for than a format that has none. When tournaments were offered in Chicago consistently, there was even more motivation to attend tournaments outside of the region; when you were already going to attend one tournament a year, it made sense to test year-round, meaning that when extra-regional tournaments came around, you were already up to date on the format and it's shifts, so if conditions were right, you might go. As it stands, one tournament a year in Virginia or New York is not enough reason to keep interest in the format.

Is this the only reason why attendance is down? Of course not. People grow up, get married, move on. If attendance is down, perhaps it is because there aren't enough new players taking the place of the players who are leaving. What draws new players? Lots of tournaments. I think it is obvious why Bleiweiss would put forward this argument. And it is an interesting argument. But the evidence does not point in that direction; in fact, we don't have any causative evidence. We have a good correlation between the existence of proxies and tournament attendance. But if anything, the correlation is a positive one, not the negative one which Bleiweiss is trying to show.

[Stormanimagus]

I'm telling you guys, the heart of any healthy format is a healthy number of small tournaments like FNM.

Sure, SCG can bring back tourneys in the Midwest, but the reason Standard and Extended are so successful is FNM. Vintage needs an FNM scene with 10-20 person tourneys every week. This requires sanctioning proxies as you won't get enough players interested unless they feel they can play a powerful deck. A lot of Extended players already have some vintage playable cards (Tarmogoyf, Chrome Mox, Dark Confidant etc.,) and could substitute the Shocklands for duals at minimal detriment to their decks. There are a lot of nearly optimal Vintage decks that could be constructed by Extended players for FNM if 10 proxies were allowed. Trust me guys, this REALLY could work.

Any thoughts on sanctioning proxies and how to actually convince the powers that be to do it?

[chrissss]

Why is it frustrating?  If your intention is to compete and win then shouldn't the playing field be level?  And then skill and luck will determine the rest.  But, if your intention is to have the most expensive deck and have superior cards at your disposal compared to other players then sure you'd hate proxies.

Because its magic. Since day one of magic its been about having the best cards. It used to be about having luck with boosters, now its about having money to buy them from retailers/ebay. Its a cardgame which is extremely expensive if you look at it, and people buy cards to play with them, because they are worth the money. It's still a cardgame which should be played with real cards. I know some people completely disagree with this, It's just my opinion.

Again why?  Let's use a golf analogy.  You're telling me that if I were to hit a Hole in one with a $500 club signed by Tiger Woods it would be any different than if I hit the same Hole in one with a $10 club that I made in my garage?  Either way the sense of accomplishment is the same.

Not really the same though though

It's very very hard finding a good analogy for magic.

this is what I meant :

http://www.gamingetc.com/images/ANCESTRAL%20RECALL.jpg

These proxies are very nice in my opinion, but because they don't say what the card does, all tournaments I know don't allow these.

[nineisnoone]

Random idea.

How would people feel about prize destinctions between Proxy and non-Proxy users?  The actual determination of the winner would be indifferent, but to get the *good* prizes you would have to play with a non-Proxy deck.  This could keep the dedicated Vintage players to play non-Proxy decks to get the good prizes, while still allow the casual players who need the Proxies to play and still complete.  But at the same time make sure that the prizes that the Vintage devotees would want can stay in their hands.

[Akuma]

I thought the article was great and I find myself agreeing with it. Vintage is virtually non-existent here in the US compared to Europe. There is no pride amongst the community about their collection / deck / cards here. Proxies play a huge role in this. There are a few of us out here who enjoy pimping our decks, but many players will just cash in on their cards and proxy them and eventually not care about playing. If you keep the cards, you are more likely to play.

It would make sense to get rid of proxies, which would then increase the need for these expensive cards. Once you have or if you already have the expensive card, you are more likely to keep it because you actually use it. All tournaments should offer a prize of some sort to the highest placing un-powered deck.

I'm basically ranting, so basically: I agree with Ben.

[Diakonov]

This is a very interesting topic. 

I really don't think we can rely on the DCI to start allowing proxies.  This would only serve to steal current players away from Standard and Limited and this would hurt their profits.  If you could somehow guarantee that it would bring in enough players new to Magic to make this drop negligible, I'm sure they'd be all for it.  But, as it is right now, it would still be cheaper (and more convenient) for a newbie to pick up drafting and then slide into Type 2.

I think it comes down to the fact that Wizards is happy that there are diehard Vintage fans out there who occasionally put some money on the table, but they would certainly not want to make the format as appealing as their money-making ones.  We need to rely on the community to support the format, not a corporation.

I would put myself in the party that says proxies are a good thing for stimulating Vintage.  I have friends who have considered getting into the game, but the astronomical initial cost is very intimidating.  Instead, they say, "Hey, let's do that drafting thing!  That only costs ten bucks, and I don't have to commit to anything!"  Suggesting that proxies exist is the only thing that remotely inspires interest, because they know otherwise they would be getting into a game where the amount of money you put in has a very real effect on your tournament success.

Unfortunately, I do not have premium, and am unable to see the counterpoint to this.  Using all of my imagination, I can't think of any more reasonable way to increase attendance than to have local, weekly $5 tournaments, where unlimited proxies are allowed.  That way anybody can play, and once they get into it they will naturally want to own cards. 

[Nehptis]

It would make sense to get rid of proxies, which would then increase the need for these expensive cards.

Sorry, I disagree:
#1 Get rid of proxies and tournament attendance would decline. 
#2 If your point is that by increasing demand for something that is already in short supply will lead to an increase in "need" your are very wrong.  It will increase price thereby raising the barrier for entry into Vintage resulting again in tournament decline.

Popularity (measured by the number of people participating in something) is determined by a few factors, in no particular order:

#1 Awareness - If no one knows about something they won't attend / participate.
#2 Perception - If people have a poor or negative view of something then they won't join.  If players think that Vintage is all about Turn 0 wins and low interaction and they value the opposite, they won't play.
#3 Barrier for Entry - If the cost to join is too high then certain people are excluded due to economic factors.  This speaks directly to the Proxy rule.  If it costs 3 times as much to play a competitive Vintage deck with no proxies than with proxies a certain # of players will be excluded from joining the Vintage scene.
#4 Availability / Accessibility - If there are more frequently held events spread over a larger area then this SHOULD positively affect popularity.
#5a Return on Investment for Players - Prize support needs to be in balance with the investments the participant makes.  Investment includes entry fee and COST to compete with a competitive deck.  So, no proxies means a higher player investment.
#5b Return on Investment for TOs - This is a biggie that often gets overlooked.  If there is a higher risk to TOs in hosting Vintage events vs. other formats due to perceived demand and potential for a lower return then they are forced into hosting fewer Vintage events compared to other formats.  Proxies are a means of attracting more players, thereby mitigating TO risk for returns on their investment.

There are probably more that can be added, as well.  But, I strongly feel that the BEST way to increase interest in Vintage and raise tournament participation is to:

1) Sanction Proxy Vintage Events - this lowers the barrier to entry and potentially raises interest
2) Allow TOs to host FNM / Weekly Sanctioned Vintage events - this increases the availability / accessibility of events

Combined this should attract more players and make Vintage a more AVAILABLE and ATTRACTIVE* format.

* ATTRACTIVE in no way refers to the appearance of Vintage players...j/k!

[swawagon]

Just because people can play with sharpied Basics, they still want to own/win power. I got a Twister and a Pearl.

I think many players are really good in the WI, IL area. People just get crushed a few times, are out 20 bones a pop, and decide they can just play multiplayer with their buds instead. It has nothing to do with proxies.

Punching sandwiches or mocking newbies is a larger concern for tourney turnout.

[LordHomerCat]

Just because people can play with sharpied Basics, they still want to own/win power. I got a Twister and a Pearl.

I think many players are really good in the WI, IL area. People just get crushed a few times, are out 20 bones a pop, and decide they can just play multiplayer with their buds instead. It has nothing to do with proxies.

Punching sandwiches or mocking newbies is a larger concern for tourney turnout.

Just to clarify, no one will ever get their sandwich punched without explicitly joining the game.  Innocent sandwiches are to be spared always, and any violation will earn that person a new free sandwich.

[Purple Hat]

I feel like location is a huge issue that drove down attendence at the SCG tournaments.  Roanoke is not the easiest place to get to and the South East and the Atlantic region, while certainly notable for their quality of players, are not areas well known for their quantity of vintage players.  If they held a Power 9 tournament in New York, Philly, or maybe even Washington DC (I'm totally biased here), I think it would be much better attended since it's not such a huge trek for the New England players and major metro areas are more easily accessable by air/train than smaller cities.

[Stormanimagus]

Just because people can play with sharpied Basics, they still want to own/win power. I got a Twister and a Pearl.

I think many players are really good in the WI, IL area. People just get crushed a few times, are out 20 bones a pop, and decide they can just play multiplayer with their buds instead. It has nothing to do with proxies.

Punching sandwiches or mocking newbies is a larger concern for tourney turnout.

I think you make a good point about what typical "would-be-vintage" players want from a tourney. COMPETITIVE FUN. That's why they, more than any other type of magic player, would take a game of multiplayer with their buds over getting crushed in a large event.

This is what makes Vintage players so awesome and why it's the only format I still would like to play (I am struggling to become an actor in NYC so my time is extremely limited). Vintage players enjoy magic. They don't just see magic as a career to make money in. Unfortunately, the way that Standard and Extended are often incentivised, they often come across as just that: a way to make money (this is kinda absurd, as magic is not any more a way of making money than Poker is. Sure if you are a Magic Pro or if you are part of the World Series of Poker you might make money, but how many folks are part of either out of the all the folks that play?). The only reason to have a prize at a Magic event is to offer the excitement that one gets from gambling a bit. Except that Magic involves tremendous skill and deck prep as well, and that makes it an extremely fun competitive game.

Now, getting back to Vintage players. I like them soo much because:

a)they are intelligent and thoughtful people who understand more about the world than just magic
b)they love magic and all the intricacies of card-interaction, and they love to chat about it (people like Jeff and Jeremiah are good examples)
c)they play to compete, not to make loads of cash.

I would hope that by promoting the format and "if" Wizards allowed sanctioned proxy events, that Vintage would not then become a format of profit the way I see Extended and Standard have become.

That would be my only objection to Sanctioning proxies. However, if FNMs can make the prize structure of such events fair and balanced and the player base is truly interested in the format then I'd be all for it.

I think we really also need to examine the 3rd alternative. GOOD BUDGET DECKS. Stephen Menendian has offered a goldmine of "power-eight" decks that could be serious contendors in a powered metagame. Though it would pain me to not play Storm Combo, I could willingly play mono-black budget sui to try and earn some power and someday play TPS again. It would encourage new players to win on superior playskill and would make the competition tougher. I applaud Stephen for making it more realistic to play competitively on a budget. This third option should not be overlooked by players or Ben Bleiwesses alike.

[Nehptis]

I think we really also need to examine the 3rd alternative. GOOD BUDGET DECKS.

This over used EXCUSE for not supporting Proxy or Sanctioned Proxy events is flawed and impossible to agree with.  If you truly value competition then the PLAYING FIELD must be as equal as reasonably possible.  This is a reason why professional sports have salary caps.  This is one reason why performance enhancing drugs are are not allowed.

What if I said that this year the Boston Red Sox were allowed to use aluminum bats if they wished?  But, everyone else could not.  Even with better equipment the Sox are NOT guaranteed to win a championship.  But, they would have a significant advantage and higher chance of winning.

There is always a case and a cause for proxy powered Tier 1 decks and proxy powered "rogue" or anti-meta game decks to compete equally.  But, please don't suggest that "Budget decks" can be expected to do so, as well.

EDIT:

Had to add this, too.

It would encourage new players to win on superior playskill and would make the competition tougher. I applaud Stephen for making it more realistic to play competitively on a budget. This third option should not be overlooked by players or Ben Bleiwesses alike.

You are suggesting bringing a knife to a gun fight in hopes that you can win and then be applauded for winning with your skills.

[Smmenen]

This topic has become too complicated.

People are arguing over the wrong things (such as whether' Ben's geographic comparison is valid) and misunderstanding essential points.  It is partly Ben's fault for not articulating things as clear or as effectively as he could have.

All of the points that people are raising are either distortions of his arguments, misunderstandings, or attacks on certain reasons he advanced, which do not ultimately undermine the conclusions.

Ben is definitely on the shakiest ground when comparing US and European.  But I don't see taht as very important.   Even if he's entirely wrong about that, his conclusions still have plenty of logical support.    When I say I agree with his arguments, that doesn't mean I agree with all of his reasons.  I have found enough reasons in my own experience to think that his arguments, in its broad strokes, are true.   I didn't even realize it until I read his article.   

In any case, the fact that Proxies were important, even necessary, to the growth of Vintage in 2004 does not in any way undermine the argument that Proxies have hurt Vintage in the long run.

I think that proxies have devalued power, but not in the way that Ben is saying or in the ways that most people would interpret that statement.   They have devalued power not simply in the monetary sense, but in the far more important psychological sense.   

People get utility from owning power.  A big part of that, yes, is the fact that they can play them in Vintage tournaments.  But there are other enjoyments that come from it.   There is actually value that most Magic players get when they own power just from the fact of owning it and the happiness that brings them.   Most Magic players can remember how excited they were when they got their Black Lotus or first Ancestral Recall.   They enjoy playing with real Mishra's Workshops, etc.   

The use of proxies has undermined the psychological happinesses and benefits that come with not simply owning power, but the quest to achieve it.   

This leads to detachment.   Detachment makes people less psychologically invested in the format.   If someone OWNS power, they will be more inclined to play in Vintage tournaments on a regular basis (I believe).   It gives them more of a stake in the format, just like someone who owns stock in a copmany has more of a stake in that company's existence, and will care more about it.

Proxies help Vintage in the short run.  They allow people who otherwise don't own power to compete.  But that leads to a series of psychological trade-offs that hurt it in the long run.  There a HOSt of reasons why, so many that I probably can't even document them, but I will name a few.

When 9 times out of 10 people just sell the Mox prize even when they don't own a Mox, that is a problem.   It makes it easier for a player to ease in and out of the format.  It makes it less important to that player whether a tournament is being organized locallly.   If a player owns power and money cards, they will be stronger advocates for more local tournaments, online discussion, community, etc.

Bottom line:


In my opinion, I think we should begin shifting to 5 proxiesand explicitly awarding good prizes to unpowered decks. Have SCG lead the way.