How to save Vintage and bring about world peace

[thorme]

You can't necessarily remove Petal just because Black Lotus is on the list.  You then open up decks to 4x Ritual and 4x Lotus Petal or 4x Lotus Petal and 4 x Yawg Will.

You're right, but for the wrong reason. Both of those options are strictly worse than 4 ritual 4 black lotus, or 4 black lotus 4 ywill.

Obviously, but we weren't talking about a choice between removing Black Lotus or Lotus Petal from the list.  Only whether Black Lotus's presence on the list and it's superiority to Lotus Petal automatically means that Lotus Petal can come off the list.  That does not automatically follow.

Yes, with both BL and LP on the list, LP should see little play.  Removing it from the list though not only means that you can play it with 4 BL, but with 4 of any of the other cards on the Capped List and you have to assess whether any of these combinations would be excessively broken (although in this case, the 4BL 4LP deck might be enough to cause concern).

[Matt]

I'm sorry, you're right, I had my head all messed up...I was assuming the cap was 8 for some reason, not 4.

[M.Solymossy]

Here's a real question.  Why don't we consider why people think vintage needs "Saving"?

[thorme]

Here's a real question.  Why don't we consider why people think vintage needs "Saving"?

Probably a topic for another thread - I haven't seen many folks express that here (see the very first sentance in the original post).   For me, dwindling participation to the point where Star City - one of the major format supporters - has backed off their power 9 series is enough cause for concern.

[Akuma]

This format is essentially banning all of the weaker cards on the list. Why would a deckbuilder waste their time with Imperial Seal or Lion's Eye Diamond? Or for that matter, anything except Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus?

Since this format would, IMHO, resemble Legacy, it would just be Threshold / Dreadstill / Team America / Insert mostly blue deck here / Landstill + 4 Ancestral Recall.

Why don't we consider why people think vintage needs "Saving"?

Like David said, probably better to have separate thread for this but there has been a definite drop in interest for this format. I do think the "proxy" issue has had a negative effect on the Vintage player base. How readily will you quit a format in which you have invested $1,000? How about a format in which you have invested $100?

The sheer retardedness of the usage of the B&R List by WotC is another issue altogether...

[thorme]

This format is essentially banning all of the weaker cards on the list. Why would a deckbuilder waste their time with Imperial Seal or Lion's Eye Diamond? Or for that matter, anything except Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus?

No idea - metagames take a large group of folks months to work out.  Maybe folks use LED to fuel a madness deck, a new reanimation deck w/ 4 entomb and 4 reanimate pops up, stompy usually avoided even the singelton lotus, mono brown decks may like 4 workshops over loti or ancestralls...and who knows what people could come up with for 4 Balance or 4 Fastbond.  I can't claim to know what metagame would emerge.

Yes, every single format ever has had weaker cards/strategies and this one is no different.  As mentioned before, Bird Maiden is "effectively" banned from competitive Vintage today and nobody is complaining.  The benefit though is that you're free to explore a format where 4 of any given card is allowed so that you can do your best to build around it and find something special.

[Matt]

Here's my only litmus test: is Survival of the Fittest "effectively banned"? If so, color me not interested.

[Akuma]

Yes, every single format ever has had weaker cards/strategies and this one is no different.  As mentioned before, Bird Maiden is "effectively" banned from competitive Vintage today and nobody is complaining.  The benefit though is that you're free to explore a format where 4 of any given card is allowed so that you can do your best to build around it and find something special.

The "problem" with all eternal formats will forever be that the color blue has gotten the lion's share of the best cards. This "capped list" limits a group of cards, but the shells resulting from the non-capped cards will favor the construction of a mostly blue based deck (the "blue shell"). If you build an LED fueled madness deck or a Reanimator deck, what are the chances that they will be better than my "blue shell" + 4 Ancestral Recall deck? I honestly can't see that happening, maybe if there was a lower density of good blue cards. What 4 of on that list will be more powerful / all around useful than 4 Ancestral Recall? A deck full of madness creatures, clunky reanimation pieces or artifacts that don't do much on their own isn't going to beat a consistent, powerful blue deck with great defensive and offensive capabilities, not to mention a ridiculous card advantage engine.

The ideal situation for Vintage is to have options, that means less cards on the restricted list. Everyone who plays this format should accept the fact that a blue deck of some sort will always be one of the top decks in Vintage. Lets face it, WotC is not going to print Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Mana Drain, Force of Will, Tinker, (list 20 more blue cards...), Timetwister, etc. in a different color anytime soon. It would be nice however to play Gush decks vs. Flash decks vs. Gifts Ungiven decks vs. Fact or Fiction decks vs. Workshop (with Trinisphere of course) decks vs. etc.

[thorme]

I agree - all reasonable eternal formats will have the amazing blue cards which are tough to beat...but what I like about the Capped list is the tradeoffs it forces.  For instance, if you eschew all the good acceleration to run 4x Ancestral, maybe Black Vice becomes really good against you.  I prefer folks to have to think about these various interactions and design decks with these tradeoffs in mind versus today's practice of dumping one of each restricted accelerant plus one of each broken blue card into every deck.

[thorme]

Original post edited to reflect the nice side-effect of allowing a standardization around 4 proxies.  Thought this was relevant given all the current proxy discussions.

[Anusien]

Is there a reason here for players to ever choose anything other than Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall, with maybe a spattering of Yawgmoth's Will?

[thorme]

Is there a reason here for players to ever choose anything other than Black Lotus or Ancestral Recall, with maybe a spattering of Yawgmoth's Will?

I'm sure an enterprising deckbuilder can think of many.  Maybe I want to explore 4x Fastbond by starting with 4x Lilfe from the Loam and 4x Mox Diamond.  Maybe I want to try my hand with 4x Balance adding 4x Chrome Mox and 4x Greater Gargadon.  A Tinker typically "generates" more than 3 mana, so if you want a big artifact threat out, maybe 4x Tinker.deck is better off than 4x Lotus.  4x Bazaar dredge loses little.  Should 4x Ancestral take off, maybe 4x Black Vise 4x Strip Mine decks make them suffer.

I certainly can't claim to know what metagame would emerge...but I'm confident that a variety would be possible (far more I imagine than today's, "Why would a player choose anything other than 7 Solomoxen, Ancestral, DT, etc, etc").

[Anusien]

Would those decks be any good?  Like today, people could play with Loam and Mox Diamond and whatnot, but the general idea is that those decks are worse than Time Vault decks.  If just playing with Lotus and Ancestral dominates the rest of the strategies, we're right back where we started.