[Single Card Discussion] Master Transmuter

[Qube]

Master Transmuter 
Artifact Creature - Human Artificer   Rare

, , Return an artifact you control to your hand: Put an artifact card from your hand into play.
1/2
http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html#3104


My first thought about this is: "Just wow"
Second thought: "Playable?"

I think yes! looks like an invitation for the color blue into Workshops.dec
No DSC will stuck on hand, tricks with Trinisphere and alot other things...

What do you think about this card?

I like this card

Peace
-Qube

[Webster]

Unplayable.


Including this card in a deck using the reasoning that "he makes your dead cards good" isn't a good reason at all. Alone, master transmuter does nothing. Putting this into a shop deck just makes for an awkward mana base and very niche. I wouldn't bother investing in this stock.

[mike_bergeron]

Unplayable.


Including this card in a deck using the reasoning that "he makes your dead cards good" isn't a good reason at all. Alone, master transmuter does nothing. Putting this into a shop deck just makes for an awkward mana base and very niche. I wouldn't bother investing in this stock.

They have been printing some interesting cards, and with people (Demonic Attorney + europeans) starting to head back to cards like thoughtcast, I would not dismiss it outright. It is not as powerful as metalworker, but it can do some neat things.  This with Sculptor, Master of Etherium, maybe even Esperoza could see play...I could see someone at least giving it a try first.

[VideoGameBoy]

The fact that the ability takes a turn to come online renders this card strictly inferior to say, Academy Rector (albeit Enchantments < Artifacts).  Heck, if you could sac it to do the ability just once, it might be worth considering, esp. since the card is blue, but alas.

/edit
And I forgot to mention Goblin Welder exists.

[Eastman]

Yah it's not great, but I could see there being a niche somewhere.  Even with nothing to totally exploit, it makes all of your artifacts untargetable (if I'm reading this right, the return is a cost, so you can just put the same artifact right back).  Would work nicely with comes into play effects, sundering titan comes to mind. 

[Qube]

Yes, Goblin Welder exist, but therefore the artifacts need to be in the grave. With this guy, the card just need to be in hand. which allows you to doesn't need Welder, TfK and a beast.

There will be some ways to make this playable and it's not just that it make death cards good, it allows you also to make different tricks as well.

I'm also an european guy, and in our metas there are alot more decks they aren't expected. There will be definitly some test around this one.

I will try to figure out a decklist in the next time.

But maybe you've right and it is useless, but I don't think so. We will see  

-Qube

[Nehptis]

The bounce then return part of the effect is interesting.  But, in regards to making a DSC in hand seem cool, show me 1 viable deck that runs Elvish Piper.

[Troy_Costisick]

Well....the problem his he has a cmc greater than that includes colored mana, has summoning sickness, and taps to activate.  Those are like the three unholy trinity of what makes a utility creature like this viable or not in Vintage.  However, I'm not totally ready to drink the "It totally sux!" kool-aide just yet.  Perhaps in an Etherium Slaver build, this guy could be useful.  Solemn Simulicrum, Sharuum, and Titan are all synergistic with this guy.  Playing a Mindslaver for at instant speed is pretty cool too.  He has a lot of obstacles to overcome, especially in this environment, but I'm not going to be too quick to dismiss this guy before anyone has had a chance to experiment with him.

[Qube]

Well....the problem his he has a cmc greater than that includes colored mana, has summoning sickness, and taps to activate.  Those are like the three unholy trinity of what makes a utility creature like this viable or not in Vintage.

True, but I'm happy to see that there are cards in new editions which are "maybe" usefull in vintage. Too much cards aren't. But with so many cards avalable for vintage, the potential for synergies often comes up later.

[Purple Hat]

it also makes your artifacts uncounterable.  the summoning sickness will probably kill it, but it takes a turn or two for aether vial to come on line as well and people still play that.

[nineisnoone]

I think people are being unfairly harsh to the card.  This definitely increases the strength of a U-Shop list.  It is phenomenal with Tangle Wire and Smokestacks, allowing a free reset of counters.  It itself ignores 5 out of 9 spheres, and subsequently lets you ignore spheres for the rest of the game and it let's you ignore Chalice for the rest of the game.  Additionally, I can easily see enough blue to support FoW now in a U Shop deck.  Thus while not directly answering the Recall/Rebuild answer to Shop decks, gives you the opportunity to just FoW your way out of it.  I definitely expect this card to see play.

[Qube]

Would it help, if cards like Lightning Greaves are included? It would be also a card, that can be returned for the ability. The shroud-part of this card is also strong.
Hmm have to think about this.
And it's also good to play with FOW and good blue spells in shop.decs
Other cards which are good with this are Tangle Wire and Smokestack.
There is a huge potential for the  {U}Shopdecs I'm sure.

-Qube

Edit: missed the post above me about Wire and Stack.

[bluemage55]

The biggest problem with it for me is the mana cost.  If it was either  ,  , or  , it'd be a whole lot better, but it's at a mana cost that makes it awkward for Shop decks and not powerful enough for Drain decks.

[VideoGameBoy]

(if I'm reading this right, the return is a cost, so you can just put the same artifact right back).

That's true.

I think this was primarily meant to be a Limited combo with Sharuum the Hegemon and/or Reaper King.

[Vegeta2711]

It's a Reverse Welder, but 4 instead of 1. Horrible for Vintage.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The biggest problem with it for me is the mana cost.  If it was either  ,  , or  , it'd be a whole lot better, but it's at a mana cost that makes it awkward for Shop decks and not powerful enough for Drain decks.

My fantasy would be a 1/1 for U that tapped to activate.  This guy at 4 mana is way too slow.

[vassago]

I am going to have to agree that this cards is lack luster at best. To help poeple better understand why I have this opinion, I would have to say that it obviously falls under the catagory "the danger of doing cool things."  For those who are unfamiliar, please read the article in the following link.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3689

[Smmenen]

It's a Reverse Welder, but 4 instead of 1. Horrible for Vintage.

That's almost as bad as Webster saying the card is worse than Metalworker.  This card has functions that are different than either card. 

That's like this quote about Ad Nauseam:

I don't get where people got this idea that instant speed was really a big deal in combo.

I'd rather play Future Sight than this.

I think this card is playable in the sense that it is good enough to see play in Vintage.  Whether it will or not is a different matter. 

[Campee]

Way too slow for vintage. Gets hated out by Null Rod. Stick with Tinker and tutors.

[policehq]

The biggest problem with it for me is the mana cost.  If it was either  ,  , or  , it'd be a whole lot better, but it's at a mana cost that makes it awkward for Shop decks and not powerful enough for Drain decks.

Since it's an artifact, being U3 is probably better for a Shop deck than UU1. Or possibly even UU.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

I would have to abandon the naysayers on this one.

It's blue - it can pitch to FoW.
It's an artifact - it can pitch to TfK. Likewise, it can be put into play by Workshops. It can be Tinkered, heck it can be Transmuted.

It can put any artifact into play at instant speed.
DSC is not a dead draw, instant Armageddon via Titan, instant salvation via Angel, instant Canonist/Sphere in response to tutors or Y.Will, cute tricks with Duplicant/Sharuum and what-not.
I'm perplexed as to why the surprise EoT or in-repose factor is greatly underestimated.

It can enable a permanent fresh T.Wire soft lock needing ONLY T.Wire and no other components, it overrides counter spells, it laughs at graveyard hate.
It overcomes pinpoint artifact removal. (can even save itself)

It's not an early game card really, more of a mid-game card to solidify board position.
Got it too early? Pitch to Force, discard to TfK.

Although I have to agree that a deck is still blurry at this point, I would say it has potential in Mono-U Workshop deck of sorts. (Yeah yeah, mass artifact bounce and Null Rod is still a problem, but at least you can now run Force)

I think the problem is people look at this card and thinks "Must replace Welder. Must plug and play in current Workshop.dec".
It should be looked at like Ad Nauseam. It warrants a deck of its own, albeit similar to its Stax mother.
The question is if such a deck is already possible with the current quantity of U-stax components.

EDIT:
Changed the mentioned T.Wire trick as a permanent "soft lock" rather than a permanent "lock".
Thanks for the heads up, policehq.

[policehq]

Also, it protects important artifacts in play from destruction spells. If they are expensive, there is a minimal drawback of trading the artifact again and paying U.

A Tangle Wire lock would require that your opponent only has 4 permanents in play that can tap, though. And the implications of the word "lock" give me reason to believe they have time to get out of it. Still, that's a good thought.

[credmond]

It's got potential and is worth a second look and some experimenting. A lot of people were wrong about tezzeret and ad nauseum.

This card could go into a U stax with mindlock orb.

[islanderboi10]

It's like a blue Elvish Piper, except for all artifacts.

It would be cool to see this card in play, but only time will tell.

[WTGeoff]

...Pros of the card...

I think the problem is people look at this card and thinks "Must replace Welder. Must plug and play in current Workshop.dec".
It should be looked at like Ad Nauseam. It warrants a deck of its own, albeit similar to its Stax mother.
The question is if such a deck is already possible with the current quantity of U-stax components.

My thoughts exactly. It will need a deck of it's own to see any results. Is it the Tezzeret of Conflux? Probably not. I think the comparison to Ad Nauseam is a good one.

It pitches to Force. If it survives a turn it can act as a Tinker for U that doesn't sac the artifact, just bounces them.

[TheShop]

I liked the thought of using the bounce cost to drop the same artifact again.  While mana intensive, using Sundering Titan's triggered ability twice in one turn would be almost overkill for dual-land based drain decks(who also couldn't counter the titan when being played this way).

[Webster]

It's a Reverse Welder, but 4 instead of 1. Horrible for Vintage.

That's almost as bad as Webster saying the card is worse than Metalworker.  This card has functions that are different than either card.

I believe my exact words were "metalworker blows this piece of trash away" which means when comparing the two in terms of "what I don't want to see my on my opponent's side", metalworker is much scarier than master transmuter. Metalworker is going to have a much stronger impact on the game much more quickly than transmuter for obvious reasons which I give you the benefit of the doubt of knowing. Transmuter costs more, takes a turn to come online, and on top of that, requires you to have both a broken artifact in your hand and a cheap artifact to cheat it into play with. Quite situational. I don't know what kind of type 1 gets played wherever people who advocate this card are from, but where I play, master transmuter is just giant do-nothing that get's ignored while a duress rips the hand apart, or gets drained into its opponent's 5-minute turn involving multiple restricted cards.


Those are just a few of my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth. But then again, what do I know?

[sWoRdFiSh`]

<snip>
Transmuter costs more, takes a turn to come online, and on top of that, requires you to have both a broken artifact in your hand and a cheap artifact to cheat it into play with. Quite situational.
<snip>

"Goblin Welder requires a Mountain, which no other part of the deck makes use of, not to mention it delays the turn that I play my Metalworker, thereby causing me a full turn, takes a turn to come online, and on top of that, requires you to have both a broken artifact in your graveyard and a cheap artifact to cheat it into play with. Quite situational."

Now do you want to drop your welders and just run Metalworker then?

Apples and oranges man, apples and oranges.

1) Transmuter can return itself; it's an artifact.
2) If I insert it in a deck without broken artifacts, then I seriously have to reconsider my deck building skills.
3) Cheap artifacts like say Moxen, B.Lotus, Artifact Lands, C.Mox, Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, LED, Lotus Petal, Needle, Top, T.Crypt, Explosives, CotV? Man they are few.
4) Transmuter is blue. I think you know the implications of that.
5) If I put Transmuter in a deck that can't withstand discard and 5-minute turns that involve the resticted list, I probably play in your described Vintage meta.

Again, I'm not saying Transmuter > Metalworker or Welder.

Thinking along the lines of:

wMUD
A deck by sWoRdFiSh`

MD(60)
-4 Metalworker
+4 Transmuter

This is the most bahroken deck eva! Transmuter rocks!

however, is futile.
They play different roles, they probably would wind up in different decks.

[Vegeta2711]

"Goblin Welder requires a Mountain, which no other part of the deck makes use of, not to mention it delays the turn that I play my Metalworker, thereby causing me a full turn, takes a turn to come online, and on top of that, requires you to have both a broken artifact in your graveyard and a cheap artifact to cheat it into play with. Quite situational."

Now do you want to drop your welders and just run Metalworker then?

Are you fucking remotely serious with this comparison? Do you realize how far you had to stretch that to even come close to having it equal the drawback here?

You know as well as anyone here that this sort of abuse just isn't acceptable on TMD. Full Warning for inflammatory posting.
-Godder

Since one wants to act intentionally dense in an attempt to prove this absurd point about Transmuter, let me lay a few facts out with Goblin Welder.

Goblin Welder can be a consistent turn one play
Transmuter comes down roughly around turn three, unless played with Mishra's Workshop

Goblin Welder trades cards in play for dead cards in the graveyard
Transmuter trades cards in play for dead cards in your hand. Which is not exactly a good place to have said dead cards sitting for any notable period of time.

Goblin Welder is vulnerable to creature removal and blue blasts
Transmuter is vulnerable to creature removal, red blasts, artifact removal and Null Rod

Goblin Welder can allow you to RE-USE many of the artifacts you cheat into play
Transmuter only cheat the artifact into play and that's it

For Metalworker, there's only one real reason needed. When you tap it to make mana, you most likely will be laying multiple artifacts into play at once while still generating enough mana that playing one huge artifact is still within reason. Which means it does a very similar thing to Transmuter AND is much better with hands involving many mildly priced artifacts.

2) If I insert it in a deck without broken artifacts, then I seriously have to reconsider my deck building skills.

Absurd. First off it would require a definition of what artifacts we would consider broken; and the second would be what 'broken' artifacts are we using via Transmuter that wouldn't be better spent by just naturally casting them. A select few such as Memory Jar, Mindslaver, Sundering Titan and DSC come to mind here. All but DSC require a notable commitment to really use in modern Vintage decks and all require the implicit acceptance that you will occasionally see them in the opener with 0 ways of realistically casting them or making use of them for some time. And since you'd be running Transmuter, this means you also accept that you may need to KEEP them there instead of dumping them off to say Thirst for Knowledge or something. So yes, I certainly think it's possible that people will insert this card into decks with few, if any, broken artifacts.

---

And yes Steve, I said that about Ad Nauseum, mostly due to the insane hype around a card that really isn't all that good. I certainly don't see Ad Naus smashing shit up all over, but maybe that's just me. I mean, yes, this card  could see play in Vintage. My own team once had a niche deck that was built around Show and Tell that was pretty fun and mildly competitive. In Sanctioned Vintage the other day, somebody was playing a Winds of Change deck with Karakas and Wheel and Deal. Just about any random card can, and probably has, seen Vintage play. It's such a loose definition or standard to hold this too, I don't even see the point.

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Actually, thanks for fucking proving my point, Vegeta2711.

Just in case you seriously need to be pummeled into the head with the agenda behind the welder comment which was wittingly done to show that Welder can never be easily replaced in current shop lists (and not as a dense attempt to expose its non-flaws to put Transmuter up a pedestal), the over-extension was written to demonstrate how hilarious it would be to simply put Transmuter into ANY deck that utilizes both Welder and Metalworker, in hopes of REPLACING any or both cards, then base the usability of Transmuter from that stance.

Just in case you jumped at the reply button after reading my sarcastic attempt at proving that Transmuter does not fit current Welder lists, I clearly said:

Again, I'm not saying Transmuter > Metalworker or Welder.

I also said this:

Thinking along the lines of:

wMUD
A deck by sWoRdFiSh`

MD(60)
-4 Metalworker
+4 Transmuter

This is the most bahroken deck eva! Transmuter rocks!

however, is futile.

But clearly you are bent on gauging the merit of Transmuter as if EVERYBODY suggest that it should replace Metalworker, heck even Welder. (Come to think of it, I haven't read anybody suggest that, so seriously, WTF man?)

Thanks for pointing out the obvious reasons to run Welder over Transmuter.
However, I disagree to this:

Goblin Welder can allow you to RE-USE many of the artifacts you cheat into play
Transmuter only cheat the artifact into play and that's it

Think T.Wire. Think comes into play. Think instant speed.
That's where RE-USE comes in for Transmuter.
I know, it's dumb narrow at this point, which is why, again, I said:

The question is if such a deck is already possible with the current quantity of U-stax components.

I said Transmuter has a Vintage-worthy ability that can probably find a deck somewhere, sometime.

Did that fucking get your facts straight?

Full Warning for inflammatory posting. You may be replying to someone else's flames, but provocation is a poor excuse.
-Godder

EDIT:
If the above is not enough, please read my last post over and over again for this tidbit:

They (referring to Metalworker and Transmuter) play different roles, they probably would wind up in different decks.

If you still think that I'm (or ANYONE IS, for that matter) remotely advocating the use of Transmuter to replace Welder or Metalworker in decks that resembles current Workshop lists, then you seriously need to lay down the pipe, and the steroids. Especially the steroids.